BS: Crashed and Burned

Subject: Crashed and Burned
From: Morticia
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:50 PM

Okay, I admit it, I'm not superhuman after all....after a posting a thread confidantly saying I'm alright....suddenly I wasn't.I wasn't even a little bit alright.

I'm posting now to say to people, sorry if I wasn't there for you, sorry if I couldn't/didn't contribute......it wasn't that I didn't care or didn't want to be bothered...I just couldn't. But it doesn't mean I don't value my time here or the people I've come to know and care about......I hope you know that.I hope there will still be a place for me when I'm okay enough to come back and I hope you will want me back....and if this looks like a shameless hunt for reassurance, well, it probably is.

In the meantime, I saw a film that set me back a long way last night, it was called 'What Dreams May Come' and it postulated that all suicides go to a Hell of their own making.....I find it hard to believe that.I find it hard to accept that my own dear David is in such a place. I would like to think that the gods take such troubled souls and make them well again, but then of course, I would. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:04 PM

Morty, it can't be that way, OK? OK? OK? You take care of yourself and the kids. Let us help you and don't bloody worry about us. I don't believe that crap and neither should you.

Last Dec. my dear, dear,dearest friend Brent did this too. I am still angry with him; might be angry for years, but he is not in ANY HELL whatsoever........it may take time for him to heal too, but he will heal and healing doesn't happen in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:05 PM

Ah, Mortee, shush, luv, it's okay. You don't need to apologise for what you're going through.

I believe the Universe knows the pain and confusion a suicide feels and therefore has an abundance of compassion for them. You know I believe in reincarnation. Because of that, I believe a suicide will come back, just like the rest of us, to learn the lessons they tried to get out of the last time round.

I also believe, however, that whatever "plane" they hang out on, in between incarnations, may have a lot to do with the belief of each individual soul and what they feel they may deserve. Because of this, if there is a "hell" it is of their own making and the Universe is there for them when and if they figure it out and are ready to progress.

Life is a spiral of consciouness, ever upward. Once one has learned a Truth, one cannot deny it and regress. One may try and appear to be and it is true that if one who has this knowledge tries to deny it, the consequences may be exacerbated, BUT the Universe, IMO, is consistently compassionate.

You are a part of us and always will be. Blessed Be for you, David and your family.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:06 PM

And, what Sorcha said! Yea!

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: paddymac
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:11 PM

That film was an unusual piece for Robin Williams, but brilliantly done. As I recall it, it also suggested that our notions of heaven are also self-created and directed. The self-induced death of a loved one is difficult for the loved ones left behind. I have found it easier to accept such things by recognizing that it, first and foremost, was their decision, not mine, and that the probability I could have prevented it is nil. At some level, we might take it as a rejection of us, much like a divorce or the end of many other kinds of relationships. I'm not inclined to accept that view, but I know many do. A period of greiving may be appropriate, a mourning of what you view as your loss, but that's vastly different than assuming guilt.

Just know that your presence here is always appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:14 PM

Morty, I barely know you except for Mudcat posts, but I've dealt with five suicides of friends and acquaintences in my life. What can I say? Most of the folks I've been close to over the last 30 years have been artistic and emotional, and there CAN be casualties. It's terribly sad. If you'd like to PM me I'll get back to you with my phone number....I'm a decent listener.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: MAG
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:15 PM

I lost my sister this way over 8 years ago, and it's very very tough. Be easy on yourself, allow the stages of grief and recovery to come at YOUR own pace whatever anyone says, and keep asking questions until you don't need to anymore. We're there for you. -- MA

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:45 PM

Morty, Hell is a medieval (human) concept designed to keep ignorant peasants in line. It doesn't exist. No loving God could allow such a place. No forgiving God would allow souls to burn forever. Hell is our last vestige of the Old Testament God, destroyer of peoples and cities, seeker of sacrifice, and flood maker.

Rest easy in that David is not in such a place, has never been in such a place, and will never be in such a place.

Grieve for your loss and his but do not torture yourself with this concept. Remember your love and the happy times.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:56 PM

Is there another form of dying that shows the steps of the grieving process in harsher light? Probably not.....

Why is that? I dunno'..............I think it has something to do with the society and the religions and beliefs and even the laws that have us believe that taking one's own life is far worse than, say, having a heart attack. I think that comes from viewing suicide as an abdication of personal responsibilities. I'm personally not so sure that's true. I'm not sure what is true..........I only know this, and I only know it for myself:

Someday I will die. I don't know how. I have no personal assurance that anything happens to me after that point. Perhaps there is nothing. Perhaps there is an afterlife. For me, it is all speculation. The manner in which I leave this life may or may not matter as the way in which I lived my life may or may not matter. Many people feel it is incumbent on them to explain to me that I am wrong and then logically explain their arguments with methods quite flawless. All I have to do is take the basic premise of what they believe, whatever that is, and accept it as truth. Sadly for me I suppose, but I find all of the initial premises require faith in something unknown or a belief in something completely without observable evidence..........and I can't buy off on that.

There is only what is; what should be never existed. Whatever story is told for good or evil about death and dying and whether or not the method in which we die or the way in which we live is important, I always come back to the fact that I have no real knowledge. I also know that grief is real and the stages/steps are well known. Personal demons garnered from others and society as a whole must always be fought and debated in the process.

You know you're not finished yet and talking through it here or with friends and family will help continue the process..........which is why I am glad to hear you no longer believe you're such a "rock."

Love you Terri.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:01 PM

Exactly what Spaw said. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:17 PM

I don't think you should be sorry about taking time off to look after yourself, Terry.

I know there are a lot of us who will be very glad to have you back when you're in some kind of shape to join us again. In the meantime, I know there are a lot of us who are pulling with you and who want you to be ok.

My belief is that when people take their own lives, they probably create extra work for themselves in the long run, but nothing that can't be taken care of in time. And I think hell is just a state of mind. I think that can be overcome, too.

Take care of yourself, Terry. I'll be thinking about you.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:40 PM

Morticia, you're a part of this place and will always be welcome here, or in my PMs. Always.

Hollywood can't get much historical stuff right - they sure don't have any greater chance with the afterlife!

Just take care of yourself, and be as kind to yourself as you would be to someone else.

(And I'll vouch for Rick - he IS a good listener.)

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:35 PM

M.,

I'm with Naemanson on this. Hell just is not worth obsessing over. It simply don't exist except here and now -- when we are cruel to others (and to ourselves). Neither does heaven. That's here and now too if we can find that place within. All the best to you. You deserrve it. As Sartre said in his play, No EXIT, "Hell is other people."-----But, paradoxically, so is heaven.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: kendall
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:11 PM

How can a loving creator make such a place? He/She didn't, we did. I also firmly believe that if you commit suicide, you must repeat this lesson in the next life. All that twaddle about hell fire and everlasting torture is a bunch of crap left over from the dark ages. It was great to keep the ignorant masses in line, but it is no longer believed by thinking people. Reason is religeons worst enemy.

Terri, you may also come here to receive, as well as to contribute. The rest of us do.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:29 PM

Morty,
Suicides don't go to a hell of their own making nor do they end up as civil servants. David's suicide has left you with the superhuman task of making a life that includes his death as part of the fabric.
If you need reassurance, just ask. You have taken on a impossible task and have my respect, even awe.
Be strong. And when you are not, come here for help. Bad days help us appreciate the good ones.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM

Morty, I once knew a guy whose dad had died when he was 13....and many years later we were both working at the same summer job and i asked him how his dad had died....and he said his dad had hung himself...and I of course was sorry I had asked...he said it was ok...but you could still hear the bitterness poisoning his tongue....

Now having danced with this devil a bit myself...I guess that is one of the few things that have ever stopped me from going to the next life...the pain I would cause to those I loved...even at those deep times when I would feel no one cares for me...that it was just my time to go...I would envision the pain I would cause to my grandparents and others....and it stayed my hand...

Take care, Morty....I do not know exactly what happened, sweetie...but that is ok...you have my best wishes...and nevermind that shit from Hollywood...they know as much about the "afterlife" as Britney Spears does about folk music....

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:18 AM

Morticia, do you remember Catherine Marshall? She was the widow, I recall, of Peter Marshall who was a long-time chaplain in the US Senate. She went on to write a number of books.

After my husband's brother killed himself with pills, I came across a Catherine Marshall quote I really like.

Someone, who had lost a loved one that way, asked her what happens to a suicide, does God condemn him? Catherine Marshall said, simply, "I don't believe God called him home but he will welcome him."

Love and light to you.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 06:41 AM

Forgive my forwardness for speaking on the behalf of anyone else, but I believe we don't want you to "leave" in the first place. Take as much time as you need and you'll still be appreciated when you return.

Thoughts and prayers.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: kendall
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:29 AM

I'm sending you a cyber back rub.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: bbc
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:44 AM

Dear Morticia,

Others have already said it well, but I will add my word as a professing Christian. We don't know what comes after our life here on earth, so please don't add to your grief by worrying about it! Each of us chooses what to believe & I hope your beliefs can strengthen you & help you through your life. Suicide is more difficult, I think, than some of the other losses caused by death. My father-in-law killed himself about 20 years ago & I still feel a twinge of pain when I think of him. There's always the sense that you wish you could have said/done something that might have prevented it. That is past history, though. That person made a choice & we are left to live w/ it. It's hard & it hurts, but there is still life to be lived here & now. Take a deep breath & get on w/ it. It will get somewhat easier w/ time. I'm so sorry for your loss.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:18 AM

Morticia - Neamason pretty much sumed up how I feel about Heaven and Hell. I just can't believe that a loving God would allow a hell to exist. Humans invented hell, not God. I've been thinking about you. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Time will help. But right now I'm sure that time is dragging for you. It will get better. I promise.

"When God closes a door He opens a window. But damn those hallways are dark."

Take care of yourself. Wesley

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:57 PM

Dear, dear Morty, I wish I could just hug you right now. I'm no good at words- everyone here has said things so much better than I could. Know you are loved, and appreciated, and we'll be here for you when you're ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Hawker
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:17 PM

Morty,
I am thinking of you, I will welcome you back whenever you feel is right, I only know you through this medium, but hope you can think of me as a friend who cares.

As for the hell concept..... I feel that anyone who takes their own life chose to do so to end some personal hell, which we may or may not be able to even begin to comprehend, but surely that removes them from hell, to a a far better place, where God - or whatever you wish to call him and his 'angels' understand.

God bless, take care, and I'll look forward to meeting you in posts when you're ready

Lucy XX

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:45 PM

Mother Hen is on the case. Speak to you soon.

XX

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 07:22 PM

Morticia, I write from personal experience, you have to accept that everyone has a right to choose their own destiny. Nothing, absolutely nothing you could have done could done, would have altered events. They may may have delayed events causing more grief for David, which from what I read above is the last thing you would have wanted. I saw the pain my parents went through, blaming themselves for things that were outside of their control. Rest assured that for someone to take, what we perceive as that extreme way, to end their own life, that they are now much happier and contented. All the pain and suffering they experienced has now ended. Sleep well. Love to all

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Morticia
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 06:05 PM

Thank you all so much for your kindness and your thoughts on this. I honestly don't know what I'd do without you, and I hope I never have to find out.

In my times of sanity, I KNOW there isn't a Hell, and David wouldn't be there even if there were.....funny thing about grieving though, it has sod all to do with common sense or sanity.I seem to be pray to whatever mad notion springs into my head with little or no control over the stupidity quotient.

Anyway, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible,and in the meantime thank you for your forebearance, your wisdom and your concern.This isn't the first time you guys have dug me out of the brown and smelly stuff and I guess it won't be the last, I can only be very grateful that you are there to do it and care enough to go get the shovels again.

Much love

Terri xxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 06:44 PM

Aw well hell.........If I'd known we were supposed to dig you out of brown, smelly, stuff, I'd have got Cletus, Paw, and the Reg Boys on the case. They have most of the tools needed since their porta-potty business, "Crappers-R-Us" went belly up.....or maybe butts up....whatever. They lost their last unit when Reg, not Reg or Reg, but Reg, forgot to lock the wheels and Paw was inside. Damn thing went careening down a hillside and Paw got his ass wiped with some scrub cedars.......which also damaged his privates. Paw lost his harmonica too...........it was a pretty bad day overall for the guys.

If you're still wadin' around in the brown stuff, I'll be happy to send them over. Kendall booked some cheap fare on Virgin Atlantic so I figure I can get the boys something even better on Old Whore Pacific.........they use all wide bodies but a lot of them are clapped out.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM

Terri, I don't have any point to make that hasn't been made – eloquently – already, but I just wanted to add my voice to those who are saying, "We are here for you, and we care!"

SharonA

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: Jeanie
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:10 PM

No words, just a big hug from Jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: GUEST,Judy Predmore
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:23 AM

Morticia, You said "I seem to be prey to whatever mad notion springs into my head." A Bhuddist teacher I knew once said that it's OK for you to let any thoughts whatsoever come into your mind, since they're going to come into your mind no matter what you do, but you don't have to let them set up a tent & camp out in your head. So just welcome them all in, & ask the ones you don't like, that don't serve any purpose, to leave... They're just passing through...

I used to wonder why people took their lives, instead of a boat to Tahiti or something. Then I experienced chronic depression & realized that if I went to Tahiti, my depression would come with me. Fortunately there are so many ways to cure / deal with medical, psychological, social, financial, etc. problems, these days that almost everyone can find some people & things that will help them. But I have read about celebrities who've had all the financial & social resources, they tried everything, their loved ones supported them, but modern medicine just didn't have anything to help them. I don't know what David's circumstances were, but I know it helps me alot when someone else is / was suffering, to know that everyone is doing / did the best they could, but life happens & we can't do any more than we can...

Subject: RE: BS: Crashed and Burned
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 10:57 AM

Mortee, darlin'...normal service b'damned! You take all of the time you need and don't worry about us. We will be here for you, on the Mudcat and off and as long as some of us hear from you and know that you are plugging along we can let the others know and we'll all not worry.

This is still such a raw wound with hardly any time past, yet, give yourself some time, sweetie. For awhile recently the only thing that worked for me, to get me through the day, was to take it one hour at a time. It sounds kind of silly, but it really helped; kept my mind from going off on whatif tangents and the like.

Holding you in my heart and sending lots of love and hugs,

kat