AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM

As a Canadian, I grieve for our friends and allies in the United States of America--for the dead and injured, and for their families, and for all American Mudcatters who must surely feeled grief and anger today.

Where my wife works, in Ottawa in a Canadian government office, there is a young man who is working with her as a trainee. He is a young palestinian whose wife just had their first child. My wife organized a baby shower for them, with office workers attending.

Issam was very proud to become Canadian; he grew up in refugee camps as a person without a country. His family is proud of him too; he is the first one in the family since 1948 to become a citizen. I can't imagine what it's like to be stateless.

I hope and pray that he along with other innocent Muslims will not become targets of this anger that has engulfed us all.

My thoughts and prayers are with Americans today. We grieve with you.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

I know that anyone can do an Internet search on terrorism and find information, but I sometimes prefer to use links that have already been tested and recommended by someone I know and respect.

Here is a links page from Robin Higgins who is one of the most articulate and eloquent persons I know. She has devoted much of her life the last 12 years to learning about terrorism, after her husband was murdered by terrorists. http://www.higginspage.com/hot.htm

I also just learned that my other friend is safe...sigh.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Their Jail time will not? I disagree. The second plane crashed 18 minutes after the first, plenty of time for news agencies to be set up, cameras on, for the world to see the second plane. I think intentional. Will the media blitz be on for the arrest and trial of the ones responsible? Absolutely, and then they have a world stage to play on!! How many more lives are WE willing to sacrifice by allowing "cooler heads" to prevail?!? How many parents will have to get a cell phone call from their son or daughter telling them that they have been hi-jacked and are going to die?!? There is a time for reason, I agree. I just don't think this is one of them. Yeah, we need to be careful and sure in determining who was responsible, but once we are sure, we need to be strong and precise and complete.

Frank

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

Larry, There you are! :-)

Add to the list of images I will never forget as long as I live - that plane slicing through the tower like a knife through butter.

Whenever there's a disaster, people always say, It's like a war zone. Most of the time it's NOT like a war zone, it's like a demolished building. This time, it's like a war zone. Rubble and chaos in the streets. Field hospitals. Gotta find out who we can save and who we can't. People searching frantically for loved ones and friends. It's like a war zone all right.

I hope we don't see any more of them.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

I have mostly spent the last 24 hours in silence, prayer, meditation, inner reflection. I have read all 5 of these threads and heard some good thoughts here from many of my friends.

I regard any violent act, whether committed by a government, a hidden group, or an individual...as TERRORISM. If you deliberately terrorize people, you are committing terrorism.

I don't support it. Nor do I support revengeful acts of counter-terrorism against anyone, and they will not help.

Addressing the original huge inequities and problems in the world that have led to existing conflicts would help, but it would require much more patience, generosity of spirit, and courage, and wisdom than is required to drop bombs on people or fly airplanes into buildings.

My thoughts are with the victims of terrorism and their loved ones...in New York, in Washington, in Lebanon, in Israel, in the West Bank, in Gaza, in the Balkans, in any place where people have forgotten that the other person is made of the same essential stuff as themselves...and with essentially the same original hopes and dreams. Those hopes and dreams have been blighted and twisted by our inequities and our blindness, our inability to see the face of God in each other person whom we meet, our inability to share the bounties of the Earth in an equal fashion, our forgetfullness of our human responsiblity to behave as equals with mercy toward all.

I am very sorry that these things have happened. I hope for something better.

- LH

Subject: RE: What IS the Solution?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

To understand what a solution would be, you would have to understand the problem.

The problem is not that some bunch of people thinks of us as an enemy. I would have danced in the street the day the USSR collapsed, having grown up with the faint threat in the back of my mind that I could be wiped out by a Russian missle.

The line of thinking that identifies their celebration as the problem -- the fact that the "United States" is perceived as an enemy for helping the Israelis, with anti-Palestinaian consequences -- leads to a solution of "everybody in the human race in communication andf agreement".

Nice idea. On more practical grounds, the simple and immediate statement of the problem is "US attacked in an act of war". Well, that's a fact, not a problem. The problem is we have an enemy without a face.

The problem of having an enemy cannot be properly posed unless you know who it is. If Osama bin Laden or the moguls of Kabul are the enemy, we have one problem.

If the Japanese Red Army is the enemy we have another one.

Assuming it is the former, the hard truth is that if you are facing a group dedicated to your extinction, and you wish to survive the only "solution" is the complete dissolution of that group, disbandment of its members, extinction of its "group" identitiy, mission, and group existence. . If this could be acheived through administration, management, or communication it would be wonderful. I doubt it is possible. I believe that the disbandment of this hypothetical group will only occur when the core of people generating it have been dissuaded by force. This may mean individual force.

I do not think it is useful to call for "revenge" or "make 'em pay". But it is imperative for our national survival that we ensure the dissolution of any group exercising this kind of warmaking against us. Not for moral or retributive reasons. For survival.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

Not to detract from the appalling tragedy that has occurred, or to diminish the grieving and suffering of those that have been affected by this heinous act...but from the stance of political fallout, looking ahead to the not-too-distant future: any opposition from congressional members to President Bush's defense proposals has, by now, crumbled like the Towers. After yesterday, to oppose any sort of defense spending increases, especially in the area of intelligence gathering, would be political suicide. No doubt Bush's handlers have already made the President aware of this, and in the ensuing weeks Bush will invoke this tragedy advantageously to bolster his political agenda. It would not be surprising to expect an avalanche of jingoistic rhetoric to follow soon from the White House and Capitol Hill.

Big Brother agencies, like the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency, will probably get a huge financial shot in the arm as a result of yesterday's tragedy. While budget increases to these agencies may reduce the probability of terrorist acts like the ones that occurred yesterday against the United States, the temptation nevertheless, will be to compromise what little is left of the average citizen's privacy.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:53 AM

I don't think I have aby words to describe my feelings on waht has happend over the last 24 hours or so.

It is totally unimaginable that any living thing could do this. All that goes through my mind is what kind of lowlife souless THING could have done this.

It is undescribable the feelings that go through you when one so close gets murdered in any shape or form as I experienced a year ago. But to brutally murder thousands of innocents intentionally...Ijust can't even imagine.

All I have done since this has happend is think of the poor souls who have died or who haven't been found yet and of those families who are hoping and praying for this terror to end and their loved ones to phone home safe and well.

I went to a session last night to try and take my mind off of this monstrosity, but my heart wasn't in the music or in anyone elses and I could quite happily have just sat and cried forever.....

today I had to go to work and wish I didn't. I did not sleep one bit last night, just meditated and prayed and hoped.....

I will be doing the same when I get home from this internet cafe.

I will be attending the jug tonight, but only to say goodbye to a dear friend who leaves for university on friday and to find comfort in the other mudcatters there.

PEace and love to everybody involved in this terror.

If anybody would like someone to talk to pm me and I will try to help you as much as possible.

Blessed be

The gods/goddesses are watching over us all, whomever yours may be.

E xxx

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:08 AM

This is the first time I've had internet access since yesterday. It was frustrating and frightening not knowing how the people we interact with everyday are doing. We watched the events unfold in horror, hardly believing what we saw. I have family in NYC, and fortunately they are safe and were able to contact us. My uncle was there; he saw it happen. We are so thankful that he wasn't hurt.

Everything has altered in the world today. My thoughts are with the American 'Catters. Take care.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:11 AM

I saw the clip of Palistinians "Dancing in the street". What I saw was a small knot of people mugging for the camera. Most of them too young to know what they were doing. As Barney Miller would say, "Let's keep it in perspective."

Can someone explain to me why the Empire State bld. didn't collaps when that bomber hit it during WW2?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: LR Mole
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:17 AM

Thanks. Through these hours I've been touched by your humanity,tempted by your anger, and cheered by the reporting in of Catters who made it through, but most importantly because of you I have not been alone. "I have a rendezvous with death", said Alan Seeger, and so have we all. Still, time passes. In the long view, this is not new stuff. Pax tecum, y'all.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:31 AM

"All I can say is give peace a chance."

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

kendall - as far as I know that was a B25 - smaller plane, probably less fuel on board, and the Empire State building has a completely different structure.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM

It was announced today that the hijackers who took the boston planes traveled left for Boston from the Portland (Maine) Jetport. They left a rental car that contained Arabic language documents and other evidence. Also one of the bags checked by the hijackers did not get on to the plane and is said to contain a copy of the Koran.

Please note these terrorists obviously believed they were headed for heaven as the result of their actions. This points to the easy manipulation of the word of God by religious leaders. We must be cautious.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Excerpts from a discussion on the architectures involved FWIW, kendall:

Very tall buildings are hard to build, not only for the obvious strength and safety reasons, but also because needed services (i.e. elevators, plumbing, wiring, stairs, air-conditioning ducts) require increasing amounts of overhead as the building gets taller. In addition to bigger beams and columns, tall buildings need more elevators, bigger pipes, etc. than short campus-style buildings. As building height increases, these overhead items grow faster more quickly than the usable floor space, making very tall buildings hard to justify economically. Making very tall buildings make business sense requires a significant architectural and engineering effort.

The World Trade Centers existed because of their architecture and the supporting engineering. Unlike other skyscrapers, the exterior walls of the World Trade Centers were load bearing. [See for a brief discussion]. The whole building was a vertical truss, and the interior was column free. Without this design, it is unlikely that the WTC could have been built on that site. The architecture enabled the existence of the building.

As we saw in the painful to watch news footage of September 11, 2001, when the load bearing walls were damaged, the whole structure became unstable and collapsed.

Simply telling the engineers to make the building stronger is not a viable answer. Of course they could make it stronger, add redundancy, or both. But at the cost not only of the material and labor to add the strength, but at the cost of substantially increasing the overhead of the building itself. If the building's internal overhead becomes larger, the economics of the project quickly disappear. There are hard numbers of dollars behind the decisions not to build buildings bigger than the Empire State Building up until the WTC towers, and if the WTC architecture is not feasible or acceptable, then the density it enables will not be possible.

The implications for the city are huge. Successful public transportation requires that large numbers of commuters go to the same place at about the same time. Similarly, the density of people is what enables the wonderful shops, markets, theaters and clubs of New York. The lack of density is a direct cause of the decline in quality of life.

The attacks on the World Trade Centers caused a horrible loss of individual human lives today, and there is a significant chance it will cause a significant loss of life of the city in the future.

***********

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:25:30 -0700 From: John Young

The '45 Empire State Building crash is oft studied in architectural and structural engineering to learn why the building withstood the hit. The plane was a B-24, I believe, but in any case a much smaller craft than the ones which hit the WTC and the Pentagon. The '45 plane's engines did penetrate the building, shooting out the far side and falling to the ground and killing passersby, but most of the plane remained inside the structure for it was made of far more fragile materials than a building. A relative small amount of damage was done to the structure of the building though fire was devastating, especially from flaming gasoline cascading inside.

The fireball that shot from the second WTC tower hit, opposite where the jetliner penetrated, blew out windows and perhaps part of the latticework exterior structure. Flaming fuel probably cascaded down the shafts of elevators and ductwork and stairwells whose fire-protection enclosures would have been destroyed by the explosive crash and ballistic heavy plane parts. These fuel flames, and fires started from them, would have weakened interior structural support beyond protection provided by code-required fireproofing. Once the interior structural supports were weakened, and the exterior lattice lost its integrity collapse was inevitable.

I modify my first evaluation to speculate that the interior supports appear to have given way before the exterior lattice (whose girdle of closely-space columns and thin vertical windows between gave the buildings a unique look compared to use of large panes of glass elswhere) The lattice amazingly contained the interior collapse and the whole mess dropped vertically, almost, as newscasters report, as if executed by a demo expert.

I did not expect the Twin Towers to collapse. To suffer terrible fires and localized interior damage but not total collapse. The first was unbelievable, and as I said, I thought only the portion above the crash fell. Then the smoke cleared momentarily to show the totality. Then the second tower, collapsing in a near-perfect copy of the first. The sudden dropping of the floors above the crash, that impacting load overpowering the remaining system, and the straight drop collapse, neither tower falling much to the side, indicated what had happened.

Close-ups of the exterior show the latticework bridging the crash penetrations, reminding of sales pitches from the 19th Century when cast-iron manufacturers promoted their architecture with structural compoments missing with no apparent destabilization -- the load automatically shifting to remaining components. Their prognostications failed at the first intense fire which overheated and cracked the cast iron, sometimes collapsing more quickly than predecessor masonry bearing wall and wood floor system composites.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM

It is totally unimaginable that any living thing could do this.

I find it unimaginable too. But for all that, there is nothing unusual in it. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Dresden. Hamburg. And the list could go on a lot longer, and it is all that likely to get longer still.

All we need is to believe that this is something that we need to do and are entitled to do as a way of balancing some atrocity that "we" remember and "they" ignore. And that is the way a lot of people seem to be thinking today in the wake of yesterday.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

Brett (Naemanson), good to hear from you, and you're taking a very level-headed view of these terrible events. Your point about going-to-Allah's-garden has been made many many times.

There were two stashes of these incriminating materials found, so far: one in the rental car, and another in the checked-in bag that didn't go on the doomed plane with its apparent owner.

We should bear in mind that these were so obviously planted, so that they could be found and their contents would tell a story, that we must ask what the motivation for leaving this evidence was.

It could have been to tell the world that this was "propaganda of the deed" by Moslems.

Maybe it was. But if it wasn't, it sure is a good way of putting all the suspicion on the Arabs, and shifting it away from someone else.

Bill

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST, I, hurricane (on a different computer)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

Bush used the term "war" in his speech today which he didn't do yesterday. Reporters hit him with that Act passed in the Reagan years about going to Congress for any Act of War, and he didn't respond. I don't know if there is any legally recognized way to use the term war where another nation state is not involved.

kendall: I meant I couldn't use my real name Dan or Danny and I didn't even bother to try DannyBoy. I could have used a string of numbers, I guess, but that's no fun.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:15 PM

Hi Willie-O,

Yeah, that is one thing we have to keep in mind. We cannot jump to the conclusion that any one group has done this. Evidence can be planted, claims can be made, and the wrong people get the wrong idea. One group develops plans for vengeance and another group celebrates. Both could be wrong!

Let's keep a clear head and wait for the evidence.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Airto
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:18 PM

I am completely shocked by what has happened. My brother from Dublin was somewhere in Manhattan yesterday and I was so relieved to hear he is OK. Countless others, from all over the world, are not so fortunate.

My thoughts are with everybody caught up in this terrible atrocity, and I'm keeping fingers crossed for all of those who call in here, for their loved ones and friends.

Meanwhile, let the voices of reason prevail. Yes to strategic action to stop terrorism. No to blunt acts of revenge.

My impression of atrocities in Ireland is that the victims and those closest to them generally aren't the ones who call for vengeance. They know too much about the consequences to ever visit them on others.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM

Could it be that these "incriminating materials" might have belonged to a Muslim victim on one of the planes? Or have they now identified the hijackers and their cars?
---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM

There's a chain of circumstantial evidence developing. The materials found included:

• a Koran
• a flight-training video for commercial airliners
• a fuel-loading chart for airliners.

Could be:

1. "Moslem" terrorists who wanted to fly a plane and were interested in the fuel loading factors
2. Someone who wanted the above to be suspected
3. a coincidence, somebody studying to be an airline pilot.

   Except, and I hate to mention this, the car was found from information from someone who remembered seeing and having words with 5 "Arab" men in a parking garage. Once again, its CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence.

   Remember "John Doe #2" in OK City? The swarthy fellow whose only problem as a suspect or witness was that he seemed not to actually exist...despite being the most wanted man in the world for a few days, in the media.

   The mass media amplifier plays smoke and mirror tricks with very little actual material. And it's on a deafeningly high volume with a lot of reverb, feedback and distortion.

   Bill

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM

Someone mentioned that now opposition to all of Bush's proposals for greater defense expenditures would "collapse like the Twin Towers". Aside from the obviously distasteful comparison, I think the indication is contrary to Bush's security linch-pin : The Starwars System. If anything, this event showed how vulnerable we are to the new form of terrorist attack, one which Starwars would have done nothing to prevent. I certainly support increased security expenditure, but put it where it will do some good, not into some Maginot Line designed to fight a war of the past century.

It seems more and more that Bin Laden was involved. I believe he will be located and , I hope, executed. I don't want to see a prolonged trial with its potential for "Free Bin Laden" demonstrations and attacks. I am under no illusion that killing him will end this. We are entering a new phase of this war, but it is a war that has been going on for some time already. There will be retaliation against the perpetrators, but new villains will arise in his place, true believers in the sanctity of his cause. I believe that most renegade nations such as Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran will bow down before the wrath of the US, but the Terrorist Organizations themselves will gain strength and martyrs, and will only become more covert in their relationships with these governments.

Apparently Bin Laden's primary issue with us is the continuing presence of American troops in the Middle East after the end of the Persian War, a presence that serves to protect the more moderate governments, such as Saudi Arabia, who welcome our presence there. As such, our troops prevent the ascendence of additional Islamic Extremist governments, which is Bin Laden's actual goal. There is also no doubt but that oil is at the crux of our national interest in the area. The Saudis can be counted on to keep the spigots open, while Islamic fundamentalists would have no compunction about shutting off supply to achieve political ends.

What are our options? We can become completely energy independent. More domestic drilling, or intensified alternate-energy research can begin to achieve this. Then we say the Hell with the Mid-east and go our own way. OR we work toward an effective world-government that would examine and rectify inequities throughout the world.

One thing is sure : It took years of tangled-web weaving to get to this point, and no surgical strike or other quick solution will grant anything but short-term gratification.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

>>>The mass media amplifier plays smoke and mirror tricks with very little actual material. And it's on a deafeningly high volume with a lot of reverb, feedback and distortion.

Bill <<<<

Whoa, they sure do. Are we to believe those guys were watching and learning from the video on their way to the airport?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: bet
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

As I planned for my day at school thinking that I should do something special for the day the only thing that came to mind was sing patriotic songs. Our children are to young to truely understand it all but we have some great songs. How our lives will be changed. It is comforting to know that we have friends around the world sharing in our greif and disbelief. Stay safe all! bet

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

News: Police FBI agents are searching on the 16th or 17th floor of the Westin-Copley (sp?) Hotel in the Back Bay area of Boston, Massachusetts. A SWAT team entered the hotel about 15 minutes ago, heavily armed with bulletproof vests on, with shields up. Rumors of a bomb inside, but building has not been evacuated.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

Hurricane: that''s my point. These items were left there as a message, not because they were in use until they were left behind. (unless its an unlikely coincidence, the least likely explanation). Who actually left them, and why, is anyone's guess right now.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

1 suspect has been arrested at The Westin Hotel according to CNN, it is said the suspect has POSSIBLE links to Bin Ladin. Fox News & CNN are covering this now.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

Just one thing to be thankful for, and that is that this thing didn't happen at the height of the Cold War. Nobody is going to be taking reprisals against people with a massive nuclear arsenal.

The assumption that this is a huge conspiracy involving governments and all that just isn't necessarily true. All it needed was a bunch of people willing to die, and ready to kill as many people as required, together with the kind of information about flights and aeroplanes and so forth that any of us with Internet access could get together within a few hours if we really had to.

Plus the knowledge that there was a virtually non-existent security system for internal flights in the USA.

The key component being the first - the bunch of people willing to die and kill. If the response to this is the kind of response that some people are predicting, the effect will be to create a whole lot more of that component.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

The bag was checked was it not? If it was checked and was intentionally not put on the plane then you have a bagage handler, or other airline employee as an acomplice. Or was it just a case of airline screw-up?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

News: One suspect in custody at the Boston hotel. One officer reported wounded.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Just to keep the incidental information tidy, the plane that hit the Empire State Building was a B-25 Mitchell bomber, the same type that bombed Tokyo during WWII. Twin engines and small enough to take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier. The twin towers of the WTC were built to withstand being hit by a 707 (they hoped), which, I believe, was the largest airliner at the time.

Don (just bein' picky and pedantic) Firth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:53 PM

This appeared on a news feed, 6.41 British time:

Police in America tonight made the first arrests in the investigation into the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington.

Several people were held at gunpoint in a hotel in Boston, the city from which the two hijacked flights which slammed into the World Trade Centre in New York, killing thousands, left.

And more people were taken into custody in southern Florida, where FBI agents and local police were concentrating their efforts on flying schools with flight simulators and were said to be "very interested" in one student at Huffmann Aviation School in the state.

- IanB

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Regarding our potential retaliation:

The President has called the terrorists a group of people who have no regard for human life. If we respond with a massive attack are we not doing the same thing without regard for human life?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

Anyone who has played even the simplest of Flight Simulator games knows how much can be learned from a computer program for just a few bucks.....Something maybe LIKE THIS for a start............

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM

Kendall! I just heard that they are calling for the reinstitution of the Sky Marshall program. It's probably the most useful thing they could have done.

You know, a friend pointed out last night that GWB called the attack an act of terrorism BEFORE the second plane hit the WTC! How did he know?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:09 PM

7.10pm English time. BBC reports that Saddam Hussein has said that America is "reaping the thorns of its foreign policy"

BBC said they thought it was a strange phrase, too.

- IanB

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM

Naemanson,
The time to prevent the NEXT incident is now. The goal should not be the destruction of human life but to eliminate the ability to carry out another attack. I believe lives will be lost but even those lives will be lost in vain if retaliation is not swift, presise and complete.

You're right, the loss of ANY life is horrific, but to stand idly by and allow this type of horrer to happen again is irresponsible.

Frank

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

They just announced the ESTIMATED death toll in New York is 40,000!

What a terrible thing to hear! The hospitals in New York are not being overcrowded. The doctors are waiting and no influx of casualties is arriving.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,I, hurricane
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

>>>"reaping the thorns of its foreign policy"

BBC said they thought it was a strange phrase, too.

IanB <<<<

One of Dana Carvey's best was when he did an imitation of George Bush talking to Hussein in "language he could understand." Full of ridiculous images: "I am a growling Tiger and you are a slithering snake in the desert," or something.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:21 PM

After yesterday's stunning events, I've been amazed at the warm and thought-provoking contents of these threads. While I couldn't access the news web sites yesterday -- I assume they were overloaded -- I found much more pertinent info here.

I was about to ask what Bin Laden's "beef" with the U.S. was, but see that Lonesome EJ has answered that -- although, as has been pointed out here often, it's still a question of "if" it was him.

Beyond that, if Bin Laden is a millionaire, what is his money in ? Wouldn't destroying the Trade Center affect some of his wealth ? Or maybe not.

It's also been interesting to me to see how the media has covered this. TV is/was hands down the most immediate - in terms of the visual. But as several people have pointed out, their substantive material is, as always, suspect. I couldn't help thinking that it was these same talking heads who authoritatively pronounced Gore the winner, until quite late, in the Presidential election.

Radio, to me, was mostly useless. Harried announcers describing plumes of smoke just didn't handle it. Once in a while there was an interesting interview with a terrorism expert, but... mostly useless.

Even more useless, our local newspaper decided to put out an afternoon edition, of material that was several hours old, and mostly saying nothing. And to make it more obvious how far behind they were, they advertised it with a bottom "banner crawl" on the local TV station. They are so old fashioned in their thinking, it's hopeless !!!

And, as mentioned above, while I thought the news web sites would be the most informative, I couldn't get on. But then I looked here at Mudcat, and found much more thoughtful commentary than most professional media outlets were offering. I love this place !!!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM

It seems some folks took offense at my post yesterday. I meant no offense. Now. Consider this - Wars are won by a couple of distinct ways.

First, you destroy the opposition military and its capability to make war - the non-jargon translation is, "Kill the enemy army." Americans - see the state of the Confederate Army by April, 1865.

Another option is to destroy the opposition "will to combat", their eagerness to fight. Damaging this is not enough, it leaves the chance that it will be revived. The Yanks did this to Japan at the end of WWII, AFTER seriously weakening the military. The shock value on the population and the rank-and-file military (and the emperor) of two cities destroyed by two bombs undercut the jingoism of the military high command. The concept of bushido simply does not stand to an opponent you can not touch.

A variant of this was what happened to Germany and Russia in WWI - neither could continue because of social breakdow directly related to the war.

This is also precisely how irregular forces defeat conventional military forces - resisting and avoiding pitched battles unless victory is certain, hit and run tactics - as were seen in Ireland 1920-21, Indo-China in the '50's, Viet Nam with the Yanks and, more recently, Sudan. When political concerns limit the ability of the military to conduct operations, the military will lose. Period.

To defeat irregular forces, which is the way that most "terrorists" see themselves, conventional forces must know what the rules are. Since the government of the conventional forces usually set the rules, and are influenced by the public opinion at home and abroad, most irregulars simply use the same rules against them.

The most common way is to hide in a sympathetic nation-state, whose national sovereignty prevents another nation-state from invading. They will use civillians as shields and protest bombings as murdering civillians. (Consider that schools and hospitals were flattened according to Japanese and German news reports from 1939-45, but military installations were undamaged.)

Mr. Bush's speech last night set out in very strong diplomatic language that there would be counter-strikes. These strikes are not limited to the issues of nation-states (which would mean war) but also to the group immediately responsible for the actions and any group or nation-state that supports, protects or shelters them. Thus, if a nation-state initiated this, we will make war on that state. If a nation-state shelters those who did this, we will make war on them as well.

Now, this is not new. It has long been the view of most nations that weapons respond to weapons. Attacks are responded to by like attacks.

The attack yesterday was on the US Military infrastructure, and the US and international financial systems. Thus, while the attack was directed at the US and involved Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and any other nation which had corporations with offices in the WTC. This attack was intended to strike both a symbol, and the actual fact, of international trade and the world economy.

To let this stand unanswered is to let the concept of democratic government be abandoned and let the war-lords have their way. THIS is why you'll see much diplomatic activity in the near future.

Finally, Islam is based on love. The Pillars of Islam include charity and compassion. It is not Muslims in general who made this attack, but people of the same ilk who kill people of one Christian sect because they belong to another sect. Jihad is meant to spread the faith, not slaughter non-combatants, no matter what fanatics say. When Hammas condemns the attack as cowardly, that carries far more weight than George Bush in some circles.

When retribution comes (not if) it will be swift and terrible.

I wish it could be different, that talking would fix everything. The fact is, some folks simply will not talk.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Cappuccino
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Les, not only do I agree with you, but it reflects something I've been thinking for 24 hours or so, but didn't want to post for fear of being thought... oh, I don't know what, perhaps trivialising the situation.

In times of previous tragedies, people would congregate in certain places... village squares, churches, and so on. And now, what's the equivalent? I haven't a clue why I logged into Mudcat 24 hours ago, and stuck here virtually constantly ever since... I'm not clever enough to understand the sociology of it, but it has served a variety of quite remarkable services, from information, to support, to philosophy...

Oh, you know what I mean, don't you? Thanks, Mudcat. - Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,CHP
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM

Folks,

I doubt that U.S. retaliation would involve anything on the scale of New York as it pertains to civilians. However, any attempt to make amends is going to be a messy business. Bombing military or strategic targets is inevitably going to result in "collateral" damage. Likewise, assasinating or kidnapping those responsible is viewed as violating the sovereignty of the nations that "host" such people. Sanctions aren't a big help because we often catch our so-called allies violating them. I think most people would agree that these people, and the nations that support them, have to be punished. The question is, do we have the stomach for it.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Ah Little Hawk - My Brother you speak so well - Peace, Steve

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I cannot conceive of anything more likely to ensure that this sort of thing happens again than massive and ill-directed reprisals, which can be guaranteed to produce large numbers of people willing to die to avenge what the will see as atrocities.

Terror breeds terror. Atrocity brings reprisal brings counter-reprisal, in an escalating spiral.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

LeeJ said, We can become completely energy independent. More domestic drilling, or intensified alternate-energy research can begin to achieve this. Then we say the Hell with the Mid-east and go our own way. OR we work toward an effective world-government that would examine and rectify inequities throughout the world.

I'd like to think we could do both.

To everyone who is teaching in classrooms today, like my sister "bet", I applaud you and send you good thoughts, energy, and give thanks that you are sustained throughout this difficult day by the support you may find here and by those where you are, esp. working with young children.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Turtle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

Brett, the NPR report I heard said that was a high-end estimate made by the folks who are going to send in emergency response teams. Clearly they have to think about what the worst-case scenario is. Giuliani is still saying a couple of thousand in each building, for a total of 4-6 thousand. So I guess that's the range: 4,000 to 40,000. Quite a range.

Turtle

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: Firecat
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM

I watched the events yesterday with horror, but when I was watching the news today, I saw a heartwarming story amid the chaos that the attacks have obviously caused.

A mum took her two little daughters to find their father, who was in the World Trade Centre at the time of the attacks. A police officer told them to stop, so they did, still not knowing whether the girl's dad was safe or not. About half an hour later, they found him alive and (from what the pictures on TV showed) unhurt.

I was also relieved to hear about the six firemen pulled alive from the wreckage. They had apparently got into a hole, so when the towers collapsed, the rubble caused an air pocket.

Let's hope some more people have escaped like that, but my heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones.

I actually cried when I heard about it, and I went with JeZeBeL to the session last night. It's useful playing bodhran when something like this happens, because you can take all your anger out on the bodhran!

Love, peace, rainbows, stars and butterflies, Firecat. xo*oxo*oxo*ox

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
From: GUEST,War Pigs
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM

I agree that ill-directed reprisals can cause more harm than good. However, many terrorist attacks are only possible because of overt or tacit support by various nations. If such nations start losing several refineries, airbases, etc. per day, i can just about guarantee you that their resolve will weaken in terms of supporting terrorist organizations.