Cold War II off and running

Subject: Cold War II off and running
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:12 PM

Now, this thread is not designed to draw attention to the Bush wr thread but is equally important a topic for discussion.

Last week China tested it's DF-4 missle, which is capable of delivering a nuclear warhead some 4000 miles. In the past year Iran has tested it's Shahab-3 missle capable of delivering a nuclear warhead 800 miles. Okay, between the two, the US is vulnerable in Guam and the Persian Gulf, Turkey and Central Asia.

The Chinese have quietly and not so quietly been courting Muslim countries for some time now. Russia, once thought to be dead and out of the game is now buddying up to Iraq.

Hmmmmmmm? Seems like the US is letting the geopolitical map shif very quickly right before its eyes.

Again, while related, this isn't completely about Iraq but something's going on that smells like a good old fashioned Cold War to me...

Your thoughts????

(And I'll stay out of this thread for awhile...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:16 PM

Time to take the Marshall out of office and put someone who understands public relations and the power of ideas back in there, I'd say.

A

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:31 PM

Ya know, Amos, my friend?. I know I might have used the "I" word myself but then I've been known to get carried away. But now I'm hearing "impeach" from callers on mainstream C-Span.

Now I will shut up for awile....

Bobert

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM

The notion of a Sino-Muslim alliance puts chills up and down my lil spine. We would end up in bed with the Russians and the Japanese would be spinning with cogntiive dissonance. It has never occurred to me that the sons of Allah and the seekers of the Tao could ever built a camp together, but they do have one thing in common: a penchant for authoritarian control over large numbers of undeserving and unwilling (or will-less) victims.

Let us hope we never are numbered among those victims; it would put Tom Jefferson's visions in to the dusty back shelves of suppressed history in one hell of a hurry.

We better get pretty damn smart pretty damn quick, I'd say.


A

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:40 PM

I'm almost inclined to say "I hope so". At least with the Cold War there was some sense that the people in charge might be too scared to do anything really stupid...

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Venthony
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:50 PM

Power abhors a vacuum. With the demise of the Soviet Union, it was inevitable that new forces would arise to challenge nations whose people cherish political, personal and economic freedom.

We -- by which I mean the West -- humankind's last and best hope -- must rely on tough, real-world diplomacy and, when that fails, force of arms.

I know it's not a popular view on this site, but we're simply going to have to kill, or effectively contain, the bastards before they kill us.

Better do it now before the thugs who run China and the murderers preaching Jihad form their inevitable alliance.

Tony

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:05 PM

Way to go problem-solving, Tony -- just kill `em all! It really is heartening to see that the right-wingers have it all figured out.

Disgusted,
Michael

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:10 PM

I think Venthony has strengthened that feeling I expressed up the thread. "Humankind's last and best hope" - wasn't that supposed to be Babylon 5?

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:18 PM

Bobert, were there really calls to impeach on C-Span? That would give me some real hope to know people have woken enough to even think about it!

Michaelr..tsk, tsk, you know we don't have any thugs or murderers in the West! (tongue firmly in cheek)

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:11 PM

Russia is "buddying up" to Iraq because Iraq owes them huge sums of money. Can someone explain to me why we don't start buying huge amounts of oil from Russia? We need the oil, they need the money, and it would be an end run around OPEC.

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: DougR
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:00 PM

kat: Don't get your hopes up too high. My friend Bobert has a lively, creative imagination, and maybe somebody did say "IMPEACH!", but I really don't think it will happen if George behaves himself around the interns. GWB vowed not to fool around in the oval office, and I really don't think he would do it. That's how president's get impeached.

Bobert: What the heck is "mainstream C-Span?" Also, you speak with forked tongue! You very plainly stated in your introductory post that you were going to disappear after finishing the post, yet you posted, it seems, almost before Amos finished his message! :>)

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: DougR
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:02 PM

Kendall: I believe do receive a fairly large supply of our oil from Russia, and I suspect we will be buying even more (until we can start drawing it out of Anwar).

DougR

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:11 PM

ANWR: Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (Some refuge!)

DougR? It may be awhile.

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:33 PM

Damn! And there I was thinking that reinstating William Shatner as Captain of the Enterprise was humankind's last and best hope...

Geez. Gotta rethink everything now. What a drag.

Amos - The Chinese are the people who originated Taoism all right, but the present Chinese administration is anything BUT Taoist as far as I'm concerned. Confucionists have been running China for a long time, because Confucionists love rules, authority, and rigid power structures. It's them damn confucionists you gotta watch out for! Practicing Taoists are generally harmless and make excellent neighbours. They are not powermongers.

When Taoism walks quietly by, you probably won't even notice. When confucianism walks by it is accompanied by a brass band, a taxman, a judge, an executioner, and a very large army. I know you probably know this, and am mentioning it just coz I enjoy talking about such matters.

The Japanese, by the way, may be the most rigidly Confucianist society in history (though they might not call it that). Still, Japan has its Taoist types too, but they don't run the place nor would they be inclined to. Taoism lets life and others be free to run themselves in a harmonious manner and helps quietly where help is genuinely needed.

- LH

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:18 AM

delivering a nuclear warhead some 4000 miles

What a shame it can't reach the far left corners of mudcat central....

Let's give them a few more years.

Why do you post TROLL SHIT....and why do you people respond?

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:05 AM

Cheap shot at Bill Clinton, Doug. That man, imperfect though he may have been, was the best president we've seen in this country in two decades. Pity the asswipe Republicans who hated him and his "uppity" wife couldn't stop themselves from exposing his personal life (yes, a person's sex life is personal, I don't care how many blowjobs they get in the Oval Office) and putting our nation and the rest of the world in jeopardy as they forced him to attend impeachment hearings on this stupid crap when he needed to be doing the work he was ELECTED to do.

Last I saw, your man Shrubya weren't even elected proper! And he sure ain't gonna be there for a second term. He is sending this country to hell in a handbasket.

The Clinton years? I remember welfare reform, imrpovement of women's reproductive rights, positive environmental initiatives, some excellent foreign policy progress, reduction of the nuclear arsenal, and a booming economy. Only area that got much worse was health care, and that's an enormously complex problem. But I think he has a hell of a lot to show for his eight years, considering the attempt that was made to ruin him.

Ya know how presidents get impeached? They steal stuff that isn't theirs trying to sabotage their chances of winning elections. I am talking about Nixon; who resigned before they could impeach him. Know why he resigned? He was guilty. Know why Clinton didn't resign? Cuz he knew the attempt to impeach him was laughable (the rest of the world was certainly laughing at us).

Ya wonder why Shrubya is making noise about Iraq where no immediate threat exists? Cuz we just might turn our attention back to that hijacked election...and once that scandal in Florida (where the guy's BROTHER is governor) is uncovered, well, there just might be some more grounds for impeachment.

Stealing and lying and endangering American lives. That's how presidents get impeached.

George isn't fit to pack Bill's lunch. Or Hillary's, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:10 AM

Well Peg, you do have a way of expressing how you feel. Right on, I say.

If you think Clinton was "the best president in two decades" that's your right, of course.

It would be interesting for both of us to be around when enough time has elapsed to evaluate his presidency. You are young, so you might make it. In my opinion, you will be disappointed.

DougR

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:03 AM

I have considered the legacies of other presidents I have voted for (or not) over the years, pretty much since the 1970s. (I am 38 years old BTW) I thought Nixon did some great stuff in China but he was a megalomaniac and quite probably insane. I still think very highly of Jimmy Carter. He is still out there and behaving as a true elder statesman should. Ford? I think he still gets out on the golf course occasionally. He didn't do much and, being a dull choice for vice president, perhaps was never meant to.I always hated Reagan as a president and still do and think the enormous amount of love and admiration people felt for this doddering old fool has merely been reduced to pity. And I do pity him, somewhat. But I hated him for what he did to this country and the rest of the world, including his outrageous wasteful spending on the nuclear arsenal and the useless strategic defense initiative. Bush the first? Dishonest, war-mongering, incompetent, embroiled in scandal that his CIA cronies and cabinet apologists protected him from. Clinton? See above. Bush the second? A smirking, spoiled moron born into money and privilege who doesn't have the courage God gave a weasel or the integrity God gave a roundworm.

I find your comments rather patronizing at times. For you to say I have a "right" to think Clinton was a great president, but to ignore the concrete reasons I gave for thinking that way, means you simply don't value my opinion. Why? Because it differs from yours, I guess. But my opinion of him has come from paying attention for eight years. Not from any mindset I held before his presidency or in general or anything to do with my party affiliations in the past, present or future. My respect for his legacy has to do with what he DID. And I don't need "enough time" to elapse before I can evaluate this idiot in the White House now. I am quite capable of doing it now, and of predicting how he will be seen by future generations. If he even lasts out his term.

Elsewhere you implied I must be approving of someone else's rant because they agreed with ME. Well, DUH. I probably wouldn't aprove of it half so highly if I disagreed with it, unless it was merely eloquent, if wrong-headed. But it had better be exceptional, along the lines of George Will (who I once told, in person, that I did not agree with very much of what he had to say, but I did enjoy the way in which he said it. "Fair enough" he said to me.)

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:58 AM

Cold War II - Don't think so.

Russia buddying up to Iraq - well they were always pretty close before, and should SH go any Iraqi development will be fronted from Russia and possibly France.

Both Russia and China are more outward looking in their thinking than at any time in their respective histories. That is driven by trade not military power. One thing that people should remember wrt China is that it has never initiated any conflict outwith its own borders, and I don't see why they would want to start now.

China allying itself with the muslims? How you actually ally yourself with a world wide religion I cannot imagine.

The world has always run on a system of balance. Since the demise of the former Soviet Union there has been an imbalance. The hawks in the current American administration are giving out signals that the world's only super-power thinks it can operate outwith the United Nations with impunity - this is not acceptable to the world community and alliances will be formed to deter that way of thinking.

There will be no strike against Iraq and Bush will not be re-elected for a second term.

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM

Peg: Clinton did all those things by himself? What political party comprised the majority in the Congress during the Clinton years? I don't think he could have gotten all that legislation passed that you cited all by himself. He signed the bills as they came to his desk. I think you give him far too much credit.

DougR

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:29 PM

Thank you, Peg, ya beat me to it. Well put!

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:36 PM

This thread was about war and peace and the future of the planet, and it turns off in the direction of which second-rater was worse than the other second raters.

The evil thing with Clinton was the way he seemed to use miltary actions as a way of keeping the press off his trail, when they were getting too close, because of his personal failings. The good thing was that at least he didn't see himself as some kind of Captain America figure strutting around the world stage, at a time when the enemy had melted away.

The pity was a ewasted opportunity to use that maybe never-to-be-repeated moment of opportunity to help turn the world in a direction away from hate and greed, and towards cooperation and sanity. And he may even have had qualities that could have done that.

Well, it's gone now. Maybe the best we can hope for is that some new balance of terror will stabilise things so that maybe they don't explode. It's a shame.

Subject: RE: Cold War II off and running
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 04:16 PM

You are right, McGrath. The subject is not Clinton or Bush.

I don't think we are headed for another Cold war.

DougR