Uilleann Pipes

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:36 AM

Any evidence of pre-1800 Union pipes by Coyne?
Both Uillean and uilleann are spellings that have been used in the past (1906 first printed record?).

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 02:29 AM

Grattan Flood (1905) insisted on Uilleann, but, as the originator of the myth that that was the original term for the pipes (he stated baldly, without a shred of evidence, that they had been blown with bellows since the 16th century), that was his privilege. It was the correct spelling, but irrelevant in that it had nothing to do with bagpipes.

Flood is rather an embarrassment to serious scholars of Irish music nowadays; he promulgated so much misinformation that they have had to work quite hard to put right the damage he did. Sorefingers' increasingly incoherent contributions to this discussion are sad evidence that there is still a long way to go. Seóirse Bodley, in his introduction to a reprint of Flood's History of Irish Music in 1969, while recognising the man's obvious patriotism, spent many words suggesting to the reader, as tactfully as he could, that there was very little in the book that could be relied upon. Donal O'Sullivan (who wrote an authoritative study of Carolan) referred to Flood in private correspondence with Anne Gilchrist as "that blot on Irish scholarship".

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:22 AM

Sorefingers; your scholarly approach, your profound knowledge of the sources, and above all the intellectual vigour of your arguments leaves me speechless.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:41 AM

Why has this thread desended into a slanging match? What exactly is being gained by this?

As for the origions of pipes (note that most pipers that I know seldom if ever refer to pipes as bagpipes which might go some way to explain lack of written reference)who knows, perhaps they evolved the same way as farming did - all at once all over the globe - (there is evidence to suggest that farming as a practice started globally within a very short time space). Its a good idea so why should it be assumed the pipes had a liniar development? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 07:33 AM

Well oil b darned! Look nerdy clones

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 07:53 AM

I can just emagine Paddy Kennan's responce to this thread....
Emagine sitting next to him, reading this as he lifts his pint to his lips... looking straight ahead, a short huff of breath breaks from his chest and blows a wee bit of froth off the top of pint, which then is raised to his lips... end of responce.
I think I can be pretty sure that that would be it...
By the way, come hear me play tonight, there is a post about the Theaters against the war concert a few days back.
Cheers'
Larry

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:14 AM

The pity is that since sorefingers is here as a GUEST, it means that the private slanging match with Nerd can't be carried on via PMs.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:17 AM

It looks like we have a Troll...

Click on the blue clicky thing for the name sorefingers, read the author's past performance in other threads, and make up your mind whether you are going to waste your time replying to him... about anything...

Getting Joe or some one else to kick him out, would be pointless, as he could get back in under any other pseudonym. It should be noted that person can't be bothered getting a cookie, but has been posting since 22-Feb-03 - 08:48 --- Message_ID=896244

Treating Tantrums in Children:
Best sdvice is to ignore them.
Responding only reinforces negative habits.

I'm Nobody's Fool - I'm Unemployed!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:49 AM

Oh, geez, McGrath, maybe he'll join up just to torment me.

Yes, folks, I must apologize to the list for rising to the bait on this one...

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:29 AM

There seem to be versions of bagpipes from all around the world, but I thought that the main feature that made the uilleann pipes special was the regulators which make it possible to play the drones as well as the chanter. Do any other pipes around the globe have this innovation and exactly when did it evolve - I thought that it was a fairly recent addition. Incidently are bellows-blown bagpipes common outside the British Isles ?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:52 AM

Regulators were also a feature of Pastoral Pipes.
Some central and eastern European Bagpipes have bellows, and the evidence suggests a mainland European origin in the 16th or 17th century.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:53 AM

Incidently are bellows-blown bagpipes common outside the British Isles ? Yup... France and Ireland. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:08 PM

smallpiper,

you're generally right that folklorists and historians (and organologists, musicologists, etc) are biased toward a theory of a single origin for an idea followed by spreading of the idea abroad, rather than a whole bunch of origins. This favors and simplifies their methodology of tracing ideas back to their origin. It is one of those instances where, if you aren't careful, your theory can shape your evidence rather than the other way round. But I think in the case of bagpipes in Europe, the evidence also happens to support this theory. The lines of development from a one-droned medieval bagpipe to most modern bagpipes can be followed through pictorial references and surviving examples. So most historians would be comfortable saying that most European bagpipes--including the ones in Britain and in Ireland--were derived from this model. However, before that, as we've seen, things get murky, and certainly the basic idea of adding a bag to a reed-pipe may have occurred more than once.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: ploughflyer
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:27 PM

I have been following this thread with interest despite it wavering from the well informed to the ridiculous.
The origins of the Bagpipe are, of course, obscure however the accepted wisdom is that the origination was during the Hittite civilisation of the Middle East around 2000BC when the musicians of the day got fed up having to interrupt their flute playing to draw breath and some genius decided to add a bag and blowpipe. The bag being made from some type of animal skin or innards.
From there the Romans took up the cause and spread the instrument throughout their conquered lands. There is even historical evidence that Nero played a bagpipe and not a fiddle. This is how the bagpipe came to arrive in England, Scotland, and Ireland and evolved into it's present day highly sophisticated forms.

For further detail on the Uilleann pipes there is the site of Na Piobari Uilleann at www.pipers.ie and a superb Uilleann discussion forum on the message boards of www.chiffandfipple.com where answers to any question will be found.

Cameron

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

Ploughflyer--you may only have skimmed the thread, which I admit is bloated partly due to my own gullibility, but we have actually discussed the Hittite evidence, the Nero evidence, the question of whether Romans brought the bagpipe throughout their conquered lands, and whether or not the bagpipes'presence in Britain is based on the Roman influence.

Q--I wonder which edition of Britannica you are using. I was looking at the online version, and though they mention the Roman bagpipe in the wind instruments article, they do not metion the figurine found in Britain, or take it as evidence that the bagpipe itself was in Britain at that time. I myself would be cautious about that inference, since Roman Soldiers could be from anywhere and might bring their figurines with them but not their actual bagpipes. In the bagpipe article they talk about this evidence even less.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM

Various sources placed the origin of bagpipes as being in India. I don't know what the basis for that is, but it seems as likely as anywhere. The odd thing is that they don't ever seem to have taken off in the far East - I don't think there is any Chinese version.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 03:25 PM

At the start of this thread I was searching for the evolution of the Uillean pipes, which seem to me to be a modern piece of technology. The general consenus seems to support this suggestion. Much else has been explored, some more rigorously and honestly than other.

People have been using cattle and sheep for sometime (10 thousand years?). Pipes seem a bit old and using bags to blow them pops up all over the place. Lots of origins seem a fair bet. But them Uilleans are high techy things are they not?

I suggest somebody sat down and made one based on prior experience of bellows/bag pipes. Is this correct?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:37 PM

http://www.bagpipehistory.org

Subject: RE: Bagpipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:46 PM

"Scotland's national instrument, the Bagpipe or in Gaelic "piob-mhor" (the great pipe) is not, contrary to
          popular belief, an instrument which has its origins in and has diffused from Scotland. The bagpipe is an
          instrument of great antiquity, an instrument which has its origins in the Middle East and traveled
          through and evolved in Europe alongside the diffusion of early civilization.

          The "Oxford History of Music" makes mention of the first documented bagpipe being found on a Hittite
          slab at Eyuk. This sculptured bagpipe has been dated to 1,000 B.C. Biblical mention is made of the
          bagpipe in Genesis and in the third Chapter of Daniel"


Copied off of a website - but it is interesting to notice that like the Irish books on the subject state, the bagpipes were long in use and widespread before the 7 hills became Rome. IOW Rome is out, finito
caput a waste of time ....

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 06:54 PM

Thank you, pattyClick, for clearing up a murky pronunciation. Sheila

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 09:03 PM

Congratulations, sorefingers.

Welcome to the human race.

Robin

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:12 PM

Nerd, my Britannica is old- 1956. Article on p. 926-927 of vol. 2
Could a Roman have brought the bronze statuette of the figure playing the tibia utricularis but left the actual bagpipes at home or traded them for liquor somewhere along the way? Possible.

The article goes on to state "From England the bagpipe spread to Caledonia and Ireland, where it took root..."

I would tend to think that the soldiers and officials, merchants, etc. would have brought a variety of portable musical instruments with them. Some quite upscale villas were built in Roman Britain, and I would guess that they were well equipped with amenities.

The classic 11th edition (1909-1911) of the Britannica has a much more scholarly article. One extract: "The old Irish Bag-pipe, of which we possess an illustration dated 1581 (John Derrick, Image of Ireland and Discoveries of Woodhorne, London, 1581) had a long conical chaunter with a bell and apparently seven holes in front and a thumb-hole behind; there were two drones of different lengths- one very long- both set in the same stock. It is exceedingly difficult to procure any accurate information concerning the development of the bag-pipe in Ireland until it assumed the present form known as the union-pipes."

History: "The most characteristic feature of the bag-pipe is not the obvious bag ... but the fixed harmony of the buzzing drones. The principle of the drone, i. e. the beating-reed sunk some three inches down the pipe, was known to the ancient Egyptians." (Discussion of a tomb discovery, the reed in place).
"Among the names of musical instruments [biblical citations] generally but wrongly rendered as "dulcimer" ...is thought by many scholars to signify a kind of bag-pipe..."
"Bag-pipe known in Italy and Spain during the Middle Ages..."
The statement about the Roman figurine of a soldier playing the tibia utricularis, found at Richborough, is also made here (Archaeologia, v. XVII, London, 1814).
Bag-pipes used at Coventry in 1534. Thirteenth century bag-pipes from Spain are illustrated in the Cantigas de Santa Maria- one has four long drones and two chaunters. Many more interesting comments.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:58 PM

Scholarly thinking on the subject seems not to have changed a great deal since then, though it has become more rigorous; occasional references to bagpipes in the Roman armies are no longer taken to "prove" that the pipes were introduced to Britain by the Romans. The evidence of one single bronze is no more significant in that respect than is the fact that the Romans brought a few elephants over here at one point. There is no evidence of a resultant elephant population in Britain, and, equally, there is no evidence of a local bagpipe playing tradition earlier than about the 13th century, when, in the wake of the crusades, they began to appear all over Northern Europe. So far as can be told from the historical record, the pipes were taken up in England rather earlier than in Scotland; dates for Ireland are more vague, but they appear to have arrived there during the same period. There is no particular reason to imagine that bagpipes were introduced to Scotland from Ireland; France or England are more likely immediate sources, but at all events the likely timescale isn't all that great; a hundred years at most, probably less.

This really is a purely historical issue, and considerations of (anybody's) national pride have no place in it. I'm glad to see that the discussion is settling down to a sensible approach; credit to Sorefingers for joining in with the spirit of it.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:27 AM

Larry - I always thought that Ireland was part of the British Isles. Still the consensus seems to be that the use of bellows is a European development.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:30 AM

It always amazes me that the 3 piece construction of the Spanish Giata Bass Drone is almost identical to the construction of 18th Highland Bagpipe Bass Drone.Gaita
18th Cent GHB
This is not the only similarity; the fingering of the Half Closed style of playing Gaita is again almost identical.
Fingerings
To me this would imply that there was a pan western European style of Bagpipe from which regional varieties evolved, supporting the medieval origin of the instrument.
Another possibility I suppose is that Spanish survivors of the Armada washed up on the coast of the western isles brought this design and fingering with them, but I've seen no evidence other than my own Imagination to back this up.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:44 AM

Larry - I always thought that Ireland was part of the British Isles. Still the consensus seems to be that the use of bellows is a European development.

OH MY DAVE! There has been a lot said on this topic (Ireland as part of the British Isles), here, let's just say that there is not consensus on this!!!! [Of course it depends how you define British... and a host of other events and terms...] Cheers Larry

PS As an Uilleann piper myself... I have to say that folks take some things a wee tad too serriously and that - even though it is a challenging instrument... it is easier than discussing the diddly dees of its history...

BS... but that is what makes this place so much fun...

CS... see ye's later...

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 08:29 AM

Is there nothing in the oral traditions of Ireland and Scotland that refers to the origions of the pipes? (apart from the fact that they arrived in the west of Ireland in boats out of the sky along with the Fir Bolg or was it the Tuatha DeDannan - I can never remember).

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 12:55 PM

I am fascinated by proto-history and the subsequent spread of farming across Eurasia. I guess pipes and bags have travelled back and forth many times.

Proto, early and even 16C & 17C history may not reveal how somebody sat down and made a set of Uillean pipes for the first time. But the history of the 19C might.

The craftspeople who made the first pipes clearly based them on other pipes. Which ones and when?

I am sorry if this was actually answered in the second post.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM

Q, thanks for the references to the encyclopedia. It's interesting to see how thinking has changed a bit over the years.

Smallpiper, I know the pseudo-histories pretty well, and I can't remember much on the origin of the bagpipes. The problem with that material, (written down since the 6th century from presumably oral sources, with most manuscripts coming from after the 10th century) is that frequently older stories, probably from continental or British Celts, are put into an Irish context. So chariot warfare, which is the basis of the warrior society in the Ulster Cycle, seems never to have actually existed in Ireland (by which I mean, no war-chariots have turned up in excavations there, and no ancient sources mention it as a characteristic of Irish life). What probably happened was that stories about chariot-warriors on the continent or in Britain were carried to Ireland and formed the basis of the cycle. But the cycle is clearly located in Ireland.

This is essentially the problem with the oral tradition from the standpoint of origins. Many stories dealing with the origins of cultural phenomena take the form of what we call "migratory legends," which means not only do the stories travel around, but they are then localized to wherever the teller comes from. So we would absolutely excpect the Irish oral tradition to recount an Irish origin, while the Spanish oral tradition would recount a Spanish one. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, of course. The Irish oral tradition does have some remarkable flashes of accuracy over hundreds of years (like the Spanish origin of the Milesian Celts, which is generally thought to be plausible), but also has some remarkable and obvious innacuracies like the one I mentioned above.

Having said that, there is also a huge amount of orally-collected folklore in Ireland that has never been transcribed or published, and you never know what great wisdom may someday be revealed! I firmly believe that the origins of

McGrath, because the Indo-European people seem to have emerged from India, anything that is widespread among IE peoples will at one time be ascribed an Indian origin, especially if there are Indian examples. But it's really pure conjecture, because as everyone here agrees (even Sorefingers and I!), the origin really was quite ancient.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM

Whilst hoping to keep this thread near 19C pipes.......

Didn't Indo-Europeans originate further north up east of the Black Sea? Colin Renfrew has a good book on it. Agriculture then spread from this area, sometimes with migration and sometimes by the spread of good ideas with trade......... north into Europe, south to India and lots of other places near by?

but I am mugging my own thread again.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 03:04 PM

Les,

You are probably right. My own area of specialization is considerably later. It certainly was assumed for years that the Indo-Europeans emerged from India, simply because Sanskrit was the earliest known IE language for many years. That assumption in turn led to the assumption that many common IE cultural traits originated in India too. But later research may well have shown the premise to be as difficult to maintain as the conclusion.

One of the problems here is "how do we decide that someone is Indo-European?" If we do not have linguistic records, it's a tough case to make. This is the same problem we encounter later, in the time period I am most familiar with, in deciding that people are "Celtic" (as opposed to, say, Lepontic or Iberian).

By the way, my unfinished sentence from the post above should be:

I firmly believe that the origins of many literary ideas ascribed to others, including some English people, will someday be found in unpublished Irish folklore collections.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 03:23 PM

Indo-European refers to a broad smear of languages and peoples- Middle-eastern, Persian, other parts of central Asia as well as India and later, Europe. Because of proximity and relationships in trade as well as language similarities, developments in one part of the area could spread to another- hence something developed in Persia would show up in the Indian subcontinent and work its way west as well. Later, something from Moorish Spain could work its way north and west.
Because of the emphasis on Caesar, Marco Polo and others who publicized or politicized their trips, we have the idea of insular, settled peoples who normally did not have contact with those in other areas. Not true. Migration and trade affected all peoples.

Even in North America, trade was long ranging before the Europeans; turquoise from New Mexico went to the Valley of Mexico, feathers from Mexican birds were used in the American west, shells from the Gulf of California were peddled all over western North America, obsidian and other goods from Oregon traveled with trader Indians to Texas, etc.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM

Q: exactly so. Trade goods from China appear in Hallstatt Celtic graves. This is why, in the absence of linguistic evidence, it's hard to tell who is "Indo-European." Material objects, technologies of production, and cultural practices (like burial and cremation and sacrifice) can be communicated across groups. So one group's physical remains may look much like another's even if their language is different.

This is one of those problems that affects people's thinking about bagpipes (to subtly wrench this back in the general direction of relevance!) Because people associate the bagpipes with the Celtic world, they assume that people who have bagpipes must be Celtic, even though as we have seen, piping is a generalized European phenomenon. This has helped fueled Galicia's claim (or I should say "certain Galicians' claim") to be a Celtic country, despite the fact that there has been no Celtic language spoken there for ages.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 04:59 PM

The term "British" in the expression "British Isles" should always be understood as having a purely geographic meaning rather than having any political implications, refering to the largest island in the group, and using it as a label to cover all the islands in the Archipelago, incuding Ireland and the Isle of Man. (But not the Channel Isles. I'm not sure about the Orkneys or Shetlands, but I suspect they shouldn't be counted in, any more than the Faeroes.)

The use of the term "Britain" as if it was a country, rather than an island is really just journalese. There ain't no such country, properly speaking.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:22 PM

"The craftspeople who made the first pipes clearly based them on other pipes. Which ones and where"

I waited for that one. Thanks Les.

If a University would give me a degree today to bleather endlessly about this topic, I would decline it, since all I want to do is share what I already know.

In this case, Les, the 'first' pipes were not pipes at all, but something far more common and similar, the lowly snake charmer.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:39 PM

A snake charmer was the first pipe?
Seriously, 'pipe' is too generalized since now you are looking at the ancestor of all the woodwinds, brass, panpipes and digeridoos of the world.
Of all the stuff above, I agree with the essayist in the Britannica who pointed out the importance of the discovery of a pipe with the beating reed well down in the pipe. This was found in an Egyptian tomb, so we have a "not later than" date for an important step. The bag in Roman times is another "not later than" discovery.

(Hmmm, I have been reading too many posts by Ian on narrowing down time of origin of songs).

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Briton
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:49 PM

British Isles is a group of islands, and is a geographical description. Great Britain is the biggest island, hence great=big - get it?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:50 PM

Thi is some thread creep

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:48 PM

See what you done, InOBU?

Certainly fascinating, all this history, anthropology, musicology, etc. I'm doing my best to absorb it, and congratulate Sorefingers for the way he's teased it out of you knowledgeable foiks.

Maybe someone could just pause to give me a word of advice, since I struggle along with no guidance within many miles. I've hit on playing low E leaving right little-finger down, and changer off the knee. This gives a note comparable in strength with D below and Fsharp above. The book (Armagh Pipers) says chanter down, both bottom holes uncovered, but this gives a noticeably weak note. My new way is a pain to get used to, so can someone tell me whether there's a downside (like it wouldn't work on any other chanter) before I get to the point of no return?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:53 PM

Actually, Guest Briton, that's not quite right.

"Britain" seems to have been an ethnicity before it was a Geographical description, though it originally seems to have referred to Picts, not the people later called Britons. Early indications are that they were called cruithini in old Irish and Pretani in old Brythonic, suggesting their name existed prior to the differentiation of the Celtic languages, and originally included the PRTN cluster found in the word Britain. The B, of course, is the voiced form of P, and the C replaced the P in the Gaelic languages, so they were BRTNs or PRTNs in P-Celtic and CRTNs in q-Celtic (Goidelic/Gaelic). It seems the name [Pretan=Breton or Briton] transferred from the Picts to the island where they lived, then from the island to the Britons who lived there later.

The "Great" in Great Britain is not to distinguish it from the smaller islands of the archipelago, but to distinguish the island of Britain from Brittany, which was originally a colony of British Celts. In French, the politically dominant language of both England and France after the Norman Conquest, "Bretagne" referred to both the island and the colony, hence "Grande Bretagne" for the island to avoid confusion.

I know, thread creep! Sorry!

Back to bagpipes. I think what sorefingers means (if I may) is that the earlier pipe on which a bagpipe is based is a reed-pipe similar to the ones played by snake charmers, and in that he is quite right, as Q notes.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:00 PM

Oldest musical pipe they've found was in a Neanderthal camp in present day Slovenia, at least 43000 years old, maybe twice that.

Mind, there's no evidence that it's a bagpipe chanter - but for all we know it could have been...

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM

That is so cool, McGrath!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:09 PM

Fionn - I'm not sure what you mean but I understand there are several different ways of playing the Irish pipes. The way most people do - stopping the chanter on the leg and open ended, that is without stopping the chanter at all perhaps the set you have favours the latter of the two methods (I said several because I've heard that there are more ways of fingering the damm thing than there are ways of skinning a .... oops)

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 05:26 AM

Here is more evidence supporting a medieval pan European origin of modern "Celtic" bagpipes.
The Chanters of Gaitas and GHB have 2 holes below the last fingered holes, one each side of the chanter at 90 degrees to the finger holes.
One of these holes is clearly visible in this Bruegel painting with Flemish Pipes.
Another medieval wind instrument characteristic; haveing 2 bottom finger holes (one on each side) to alow right or lefthanded playing (the one not used being blocked with wax or some such material) is present on the Gaita Chanter.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 06:38 AM

The inhabitants of Britain and Ireland, just like anywhere else, were sensible and ingenious folk. On occasion they would come up with a good invention, which would then spread elsewhere.. More commonly they would see some new idea brought in by a neighbour/visitor. If useful, it would be taken up, used, maybe improved on to be more suitable for local conditions. A simple and obvious process, morally value-free.
    I don't think we need to drag in notions "of Celtic" "Gaelic" "English" etc etc to illuminate(or inflame) discussions of the possible origins and use of some rather clever and beautiful ideas in instrument construction.Galicia's Celticness(or not) are serious red-herringsas, as is all the other nonsense. Quite what is meant to be "Celtic" about Galicia, as opposed to say Denmark or Belgium (both historically riddled with "Celtishness") is beyond me. I like the original subject of the thread much better@ who invented those clever little brass mechanisms etc etc. They do deserve recognition, if we could only find out who they were. Whether they were "Celtic" or not....yawn, yawn, yawn...

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM

I love it all.

But for the time being I would like to stay near the 19C. When I asked about from what did the Uillean pipes evolve, I should have made it clear that I was looking for its mum and dad in 19 C Ireland or, as has been suggested, the USA. It has many, many distant relations, as do we all.

1 mother, 2 grandmothers, 4 greatgms, 8 Greatgreatgms, 16, 32 64......
Sorry I have jumped my own thread and will no doubt pay for it!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 06:55 PM

It turns out sorefingers did not suddenly become more civil; he simply transferred his veiled personal attacks against me to a BS thread called "BS: Is Academic authority a lie?" I thought I'd let the thread contributors here know, just in case his posts here amused you...it's certainly a fun read down there in the BS!

As to Les's clarification of his needs, I think the best answer is the one Pied Piper suggested at 03 Sep 03 - 08:06 AM. That is what the best evidence supports.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 07:25 PM

Well, Nerd

1) At least now he's having his childish tantrums in a different room, and we can't hear the noise from here...

2) I don't totally disagree with his basic premise. I'm not sure that my contributions there (or those of [greg stephens - above] and like minded people) would assist him at all though...

SOME "Academic authority" IS nonsense enough to be humourous - "Nothing heavier than air can fly"... etc. These ideas, based on poor science, may die, but can disrupt proper thought for a long time if we are unlucky.

You may note that above I made some comments about the "they couldn't do that in those days" line of "Technical Expertise - Academia" - and I notice nobody wanted to keep that line alive.

Robin

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:04 PM

Yes, foolstroupe, and I did get what you were saying. Another fine example was people noticing that the Pyramids seem to have a side length that is a fairly exact multiple of pi in ancient Egyptian cubits. "Impossible that they could have built this!" some foolish people said, "it must have been aliens."

Until someone figured out that they must have used a measuring wheel on the end of a stick. The wheel would have a radius of one cubit (or a half cubit, or any multiple of a half cubit [call it 1/2 x cubits]) and they would measure the sides by pacing off the distance and counting the revolutions of the wheel. If you measure out a whole number of revolutions, you get a distance of pi times x times the number of revolutions, or an exact multiple of pi, without even knowing or caring about pi.

And what has this to do with bagpipes? Well, remember that pipe with a beating reed well down inside, found in an Egyptian tomb?

Well, erm...no, actually, it really is irrelevant, sorry!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 09:13 PM

No, we never really answered the question posed by Les. Somewhere in the 1700-early 1800s period there should be a better answer. So far, the only answers are anecdotal-speculative.

Lots of other interesting information came up, however.

Thanks to Pied Piper for reminding me of the Bruegel piper. I used to have a copy on my wall at school. Amazing the people who commented on his headgear- everything from an early aviator's helmet, early football (American) helmet to earmuffs. Somewhere I saw a picture of a 14th c. Catalan bagpipe- have to try to find it.