BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans

Subject: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:21 PM

A lady called today and complimented the woman who tells stories to the very young -- average age of 2 years. She liked our storyteller's energy and enthusiasm, as did her granddaughter.

However, she objected to the storyteller lighting a candle and reciting a verse at the beginning of the storytime, and reciting a verse when she extinguished it at the end.

She "didn't want [her] granddaughter exposed to witchcraft." She was certain that "the young lady" wasn't "doing a spell" but it was still "witchcraft."

I checked. Seems like this has been going on for some five years, and the "spell" that's recited is a Mother Goose Rhyme. Lighting the candle tells the young 'uns that story time has started, and extinguishing it lets them know that it's over.

There is no Circle, nothing is done Skyclad (in the public library??), there is nothing which I can associate with Wicca OR Paganism.

Any Wiccans or Pagans see any?

(NOTE: this lady lives in a heavily Mormon area of town, an EXTREMELY conservative area, where far too much money resides in houses that are not only too costly and ostentatious, but downright ugly and cheaply built as well. Even so, I think she means well.)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:29 PM

I have been Wiccan (and therefore Pagan for 13 years, now. What she is doing, if she's reciting something like a mother goose rhyme, has nothing to do with Pagan ritual or spellwork. Ans basically, there would be little reason to do anything Pagan oriented in such a location.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:29 PM

And let me add that the staff is having a very hearty laugh! Unfortunately, she's serious.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:36 PM

Mormons scare the crap out of me, and I'm surrounded by Southern Baptists.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:37 PM

She "didn't want [her] granddaughter exposed to witchcraft." She was certain that "the young lady" wasn't "doing a spell" but it was still "witchcraft."
-----

Me thinks the lady is paranoid about witchcraft.

I see nothing wrong with that. I have studied a wide variety of pagan faiths over the last 6 years. I practised Ceremonial Magick about 30 years ago.

Now for safety sake; I would personally recommend against using the candle because some children become very excited, and I would hate for a child to knock over the candle and burn them with the flame, or scald them with the melted wax.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:38 PM

Mormons scare the crap out of me, and I'm surrounded by Southern Baptists
-----

You should reverse that statement. I was raised by Southern Baptist fanatic guardians.

I still have the knots and scars on my body put there by my guardians because I freaked them out with psychic abilities. Every time I slipped up and told them who was calling before they could answer; they labeled it Satanic and did their darndest to beat Satan out of me.

I have a knot on my left collar bone 1/2 the sixe of a chicken egg where they broke a broom handle over it. I have a knot on my right shin where I was beaten with an iron poker, and I have 50-75 scars all over both arms where I was burned with lit cigarettes as punishment.

Because of my early training in taoist meditation, and Qigong; I was able to turn my life around completely, and forgive my guardians for what they did because of fear.

Today; I am an energy healer, and have received the title maser in 8 different disciplines.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Mooh
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:53 PM

Gee, we light candles at the beginning of church and snuff them at the end. Good old Anglican Church eh! No spells, just bible stories, prayer, communion, and fellowship. Often we have special candles, like during advent, which are lit accompanied by a prayer.

You don't suppose...LOL!

Oh, brother.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:58 PM

There are many...more righteous....more holy.....more spiritual women who are willing, capable, competent to perform "the rites" that have been observed.

If....you desire Wixan....bring in a "real" Wix.

If you desire the inculcation of a cult from a truly demonic sect.....to tell the children stories.... find a local Morman.

If you are a troll desiring to stir up the MC animules....follow the MC links to the peculiar MC-links of paganism, healing-circles, critters, and mormanism.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:59 PM

We had candles all over the place at our Easter vigil. No mother goose rhymes, though.
Now lots of innocous things are alleged to have pagan roots; morris dances, Christmas trees, Easter eggs, the English country dance Gathering Peas. I'm sure somebody somewhere has given pagan meaning to every rhyme in Mother Goose's melodies. But I'm betting the Mormon grandma doesn't know that. Some people have witchcraft on the brain! Which does kind of scare me.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:14 AM

Fundamentalists, religious fanatics, paranoids of all stripes scare the daylights out of me. The combination of self-righteousness and fearful insecurity is a brutal mix, as whitness Two Bear's traumatic upbringing.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Cluin
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:22 AM

It's funny and sad at the same time, Rapaire. From ignorance comes fear which further begets falsehood, prejudice, and hate. But you knew that.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Cluin
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:28 AM

It's all the more poignant in that it comes from somebody's granny.

Grannies scare me.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:32 AM

Repaire,

I have always been afraid of people who are afraid of the magic that just seems to float around us every day. That some one can be afraid of a little verse and a single candle must give them an awful life. Even I have found comfort in a candle and verse now and then on a Sunday. And that I find comfort there must truly prove the good of magic.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:46 AM

If your school is anything like mine, regardless of whether the administration agrees with Grannie or not, the teacher will be asked to extinguish the candle (a fire hazard) to placate the Grannie. Since you are a pre-school, this may not happen but in public school, we are constantly trying to please everybody, whether they are right or wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:11 AM

Scandalous!! Candles burning in a public library!!! Blimey - we'd never allow that in the libraries I worked in!!!

As for the other... maybe granny wasn't listening to the verse hard enough, but to placate, maybe the reader could read it from the book, showing the title to all? How about she uses a tambourine jingle to get their attention (works well at my daughters' school) rather than the candle?

Sympathies to you, it's hard to work around peoples prejudices, especially in such a fundimentalist area.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: pussycat
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:11 AM

Yes, obv. the grannie is paranoid.
Doesnt sound like anything remotely like a pagan ritual going on, and quite frankly, the Mother Goose nursery rhymes are not exactly the most appropriate homage to the Gods, Nature, or anything, and esp. in a public library (with Mormans!!)!!

As for Bear - feeling very sad for you and your troubles. Although how we get to being who we are can often envoke painful memories when remembered (and indeed at the time too), it's best to think that at least we can put something back into the world which is what we would wish for, thus makeing the bad become fruitfully good instead.

Sounds like you are certainly makeing the most of this gift (if you can call it that...)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:43 AM

geee...

Didn't they do this once (scaremongery stuff about withces) once in Salem.... I reckon you have to keep granny clear of the mathces! Courthouse, and any one called Paris. Agnes. Or Mother Jones...

Blimey... Some people really need to chill out about things. Kids love this sort of thing, and none of them I think are likely to bother about thinking about witch craft.

BTW... When you meditate during yoga, often we used to use a candle to focus on. And as Moo said above, the candle is rife throughout churches... Pagan/christian/and all the other beliefs... they're all similar!

Tell her to lighten up and be quiet!

Ella...

PS... I think the idea sounds great, but really couldn't imagine that happening in any of the uk libraries, (as voiced by liz) You'd have a bucket of fire sand swiftly poured over it, followed by a sush for even the ssisssing noise as the candle went out.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:40 AM

This is in line with things like the uproar about Barney being demonic. I had one Baptist tell me that the Smurfs were demonic. Saying a little rhyme sounds like a charm or something and this seems to trigger alarms in some people's brains. I guess the candle just clinches it in their minds. If possible, I wouldn't change the candle lighting/nursery rhyme. It would be the easy thing to do but would be giving in to narrow mindedness and stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:01 AM

In all the debate I have been exposed to, about religion and the supernatural, over 62 years, I have come away with only two certainties:

1: A personal God Who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent is a logical impossibility in a world with as much suffering in it as this one.

2: Smurfs are demonic.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: pussycat
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:15 AM

I once had a male friend at school who used to have a cuddly toy smurf with a hole in the back that he used to use for masterbation...slightly disturbing!!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:27 AM

I suppose some times and places the granny would be objecting that, what with all these rhymes and candles, it all sounded a bit too Papist...

There's a whole folk tradition of bigotry, which changes over the years, but it fundamentally stays the same.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:32 AM

Well, I'm going to check out the lighted candle because it could be a fire or safety hazard. I certainly don't want children hurt, especially in the public library! I've been thinking over alternatives, and a "magic lamp" that goes on and off might work -- a hidden button using a wireless hookup might do it.

Kids dwell (or should) in a magical world. I remember the story hours in the public library back home -- there was a round tower, and the room for story hour had pocket doors (those sliding doors that disappear into the wall). Naturally, that became "The Secret Room" and was a wonderful place to go for an hour. There was also a marionette stage there.

Of course, Granny might not have the worry since one of her neighbors (a city councilman) would shut the library down to save money if he could. She lives in That Sort of neighborhood -- long on money, short on sense and humanity. Sigh.

By the way, we haven't had one bit of trouble with the LDS church. We have both pro- and anti- Mormon materials, but because they're not the screaming sorts but are, rather, well-reasoned we don't have problems. Heck, one of our biggest supporters is the highest-ranking Mormon in town.

Also, the LDS Church has made no ruling reading Harry Potter, Artemis Fowl, Lemony Snickett's books, Captain Underpants, or any of those. In fact, most Mormon parents I know read them to or with their children.

Maybe I'll have some of the Wiccans at the University here drop by and see her. After all, the LDSers send around missionaries.... 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,bonkers
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:08 AM

You could ask the granny if she believes in the constitution of the United States, and then ask her if she would be frightened if the storyteller started off with a Christian prayer. How about a Buddhist chant? Get her to explain to you why paganism should be treated like any other religion. Of course, the whole conversation would have to be hypothetical, since there is nothing inherently religious about lighting a candle or reading nursery rhymes . . .

Does anyone know if the Mormons use candles in their church services?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Green Man
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:15 AM

Didn't the Master Jesus say let he who is without sin cast the first stone?

I wouldn't force feed my children any relifious cant' particularly the fundamentalist sort that seems rife in the USA. My childern have made their own choices as did I when I was old enough and had read and travelled enough to make my own choice of path.

Just be glad thay don't have ring o' roses for the opening and closing rhymes.

Pagan, no I don't see a connection. Just someone who knows that kids appreciate a complete cycle of action. Start continue finish. If we all finished what we started we would all bbe better off.

Must go and finish my lunch now. ;-)

GM

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Green Man
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:19 AM

Easter Eggs are Pagan, Oestrus the Roman Goddess of fertility had a festival at,, guess when - Easter and her symbols were the Hare and Egg.

Another festival stolen by Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Yes, kids do dwell on stories, I remember being read the amazing mrs pepper pot, and all sors of other stories, it was great!

Midchuck does have a point....

that smarmy self promoting purple git (Barney) is the son of satan...

eurchhhhhhhhhh!

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:44 AM

The way to eliminate the fire risk would be to use a floating candle. Looks prettier too.

Or there's the hour-glass or egg-timer system, like some preachers used to use.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:57 AM

As for Bear - feeling very sad for you and your troubles. Although how we get to being who we are can often envoke painful memories when remembered (and indeed at the time too), it's best to think that at least we can put something back into the world which is what we would wish for, thus makeing the bad become fruitfully good instead
-----

I do not feel sorry about it at all. In hindsight; it was a blessing. in giving me the inner strength I would need later in life.

I only told of my experiences to teach others that we can overcome hellish conditions.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:05 PM

Easter Eggs are Pagan, Oestrus the Roman Goddess of fertility had a festival at,, guess when - Easter and her symbols were the Hare and Egg.
-----

EM: You are ABSOLUTELY correct!

Christmas is based in the solar calendar (same date every year 12/25)

Easter is based on a lunar calendar. Easter is always the first Sunday following the first full moon following the spring equinox. Can be any time between March 22nd, and April 15th to 22nd,.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,from bbc at work
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:08 PM

Two bears,

I was so sorry to hear of your experiences. My family background is Southern Baptist & some of them are quite fundamental in their thinking, but they would never behave as you described. I think it is fair to say that what you experienced is *not* characteristic of Southern Baptists, generally, nor should it be of any Christians. I do understand what you mean about good coming out of bad. I underwent an unsought 8-year divorce that left me strong, independent, & much more compassionate. I like the person I am today.

best to you,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:08 PM

there are bedside lamps in many styles that are made to turn on and off with a touch (I'm not sure how they do this - but my neice had one for years)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:11 PM

And that is the way to deal with it when bad things happen.

There's the saying "If it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger" - but I think it's as well to remember that works the other way, "If it doesn't make you stronger, it destroys you."

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Hollowfox
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:24 PM

Repaire, the "light the story candle" for a beginning of a preschool story time has been around since at least the late 1970's here in Ohio. If it would help, I could probably find documentation recommending it to inexperienced librarian-storytellers as a way to start their programs. Good luck, and see if you can get some help from that highest ranking Mormon supporter.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:28 PM

I believe it probably pre-dates that - as Thornton W. Burgess suppossedly adapted the "light a candle" custom to burning a small piece of wood in the fireplace - customizing the story to the length of burning time (and manner of burning) of the particular wood. This would have been in the 1920's

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:31 PM

The word Easter actually comes from the Germanic name for the celebration of the Spring goddess Eostare - the celebration was knows as Ostara or Eostare in England and Germany for a long time prior to the coming of Christianity. Hence the odd fact that English speaking countires are the only ones who celebrate Easter. Other countries celebrate the "Ressurection of Christ"

I said early on that I'm more scared of the LDS than Southern Baptists. My reasoning for that is the wierd concoction of Mormon "mythology" and practices that they like to insist are mainstream, but which no other Christian body recognizes. Their political and social attempts to persuade other Americans that they are mainstream, have allowed them to get away with quite a lot of really scary things. Mainly one of the biggest is that the state of Utah is nearly a Theocratical democracy in a similar way to Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:56 PM

Do Mormon's actually technically count as Christian? Surely they are more akin to Muslims, as seeing themselves as founded on a separate and subsequent revelation, and seeing Jesus as essentially a prophet, and not the final one prophet at that?

Sorry if that's a drift too far. And it's not meant to provoke any discord here. I just felt curious, and th Mudcat is where every curiosity can be satisfied.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:04 PM

All cultures generate ritual. It's part of our humanness. It's also part of our humanness that we trust our own symbols and rites and distrust others'. Xenophobia, in other words.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:30 PM

Granny sounds as if she's on a little power trip there.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,skeptic
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:04 PM

Next time Granny comes in, have all the adults hold crossed candles in front of them while facing her and mumbling some nonsence words. That'll take her mind off the children...

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:33 PM

Mormons consider themselves Christians. Unlike Muslims, they do believe in the divinity of Christ (In Islam, Jesus is one of a long line of prophets such as Moses, Noah, Abraham & Mohammed. In LDS beliefs it is the revealed word of Christ in the New World that they follow along with the Old & New Testaments. The LDS story goes that after his death and ressurection and on his way to Heaven Jesus stopped in America - principly central and southern Mexico and brought his teaching to the Indians (presumably the predecessors of the Maya). It didn't seem to take as obviously the Indians certainly didn't exhibit and Christian tendencies when met by the Spanish some 500 years later. (I jokingly say that, unlike Bugs Bunny, Jesus DID take a left turn in Albequerque.)

The teachings of Jesus were enscribed on gold and brass. They were found in New York state by Joseph Smith, who is considered a prophet, not unlike Moses and Mohammed.

Other Christian sects generally have mixed feelings about the LDS. There are radical differences in LDS and mainstream Christianity, but they are Christian.

Please feel to correct any of my info - this is off the top of my head, but I've been doing studies of the LDS for many years.

pax y'all

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 PM

Well, our storyteller came around to my office to talk to me about it. She was wearing a tall, pointed, black hat and laughing fit to bust.

She's going to talk with Granny when she comes in tomorrow and explain that the candle bit has been going on for about fifteen years. And yes, she's quite thoroughly checked with the Fire Department and has insured that the smoke when the candle is blown out doesn't activate the alarms! She also uses a candle in a deep jar in which the bottom can be raised and lowered. During storytime it's kept well within her control; when the story session is over she picks up the candle and pushes it up, then all the kids (and her) "blow it out" (but the only one who actually does is the "Story Lady)."

It's really a very nice little ritual and the kids understand it.

We discussed getting a "story lamp" that she could use, turning it on and off from a distance (via lamp modules and suchlike stuff, all of which is easily available at Radio Shack).

I'll see what happens tomorrow. Everyone thinks that this will blow over when it's explained to Granny. If it doesn't -- well, I'll just have to roll out some Big Guns I have.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:05 PM

Oddly enough -- and this impresses LDS folks:

The Mormon Church was founded in upstate New York, and left there to establish its first temple in Kirtland, Ohio. Many of the Church's Doctrines and Covenants were promulgated there and in Hiram, Ohio.

*I worked in Burton, Ohio and used to drive to and from work through Hiram -- I've also visited the Temple in Kirtland.

They left Kirtland and moved to far western Missouri, where they were forced out (in a very cold February) and Joseph Smith arrested (for murder, I think). Cold and sick, the marched east across Missouri, crossed the Mississippi River at and were granted asylum in, Quincy, Illinois.

*I was born and raised in Quincy, Illinois. Some of my ancestors most likely sheltered some of the Mormons (I like to tell the Mormons I know that our family has always taken in stray dogs and Mormons (they laugh)).

From Quincy they moved upriver about 60 miles and founded Nauvoo, where they built their most famous temple. Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered in Carthage, Illinois.

*I've been to Nauvoo many times, beginning in the 1950s and most recently a week before the temple there was dedicated in June, 2002. My sister was for a time the Director of the Carthage Public Library.

The Mormons fled from Nauvoo and spent a cold winter at Council Bluffs, Iowa.

*The National Guard unit I belonged with back in the '60s traces its ancestry directly back to a militia unit which was activated to protect property in Nauvoo after the Mormons had fled.

At Winter Quarters (as the camp in Council Bluffs was called), the Mormon Church schismed. Emma Smith and Joe Jr. founded the Reformed Church (RLDS), another chap took a bunch off to Beaver Island, Michigan (an interesting side to American history here -- you should look it up!), and Brigham Young marched the rest to Utah. They spent most of the journey across Nebraska on the north side of the North Platte River, along what is now called "The Mormon Trail" (the south side of the river was the Oregon Trail).

*I've driven this route at least three times. At least.

To wrap it up, yes, I've been to Salt Lake City several times (heck, it's just 2.5 hours south of here). AND...

the Mormons I know can't understand why, with a personal history a lot of them envy, I'm not a member of the LDS church.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Cluin
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:11 PM

"Everyone thinks that this will blow over when it's explained to Granny. If it doesn't -- well, I'll just have to roll out some Big Guns I have."

You gonna lay the smackdown on her, Rap? Just a thought, but that may be counter productive.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:21 PM

Sort of -- I know some Big Guns in various churches around here (except for the Greek Orthodox) who can hole her boat 'twix wind and water. And they LIKE what the public library does for the kids.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: TS
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:27 PM

This sounds similar to the ongoing problem today...if it seems harmless enough it must be ever so harmful!...I think the thought that a candle and a MotherGoose rhyme is an evil prayer or spell or anything other then a candle and a mother goose ryhme is amazing. I'd be laughing at the ole bat too, Rap!.....Slainte!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:46 PM

Witches prefer Grimm stories.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:54 AM

When I first began reading this thread, I really became so upset. Once again, being confronted with such a small-minded frightened person who seems intent on spreading her fear and ignorance (which of course, go hand in hand) to others.

But as the thread progessed, once again, it heartens me to read the responses of mudcatters. Lots of interesting folk lore, religious lore discussed, and in the end, I think there will be enough good reason and good faith to counter this sad grandmother and her misplaced distress.

I'll remember to light a candle for her...( For me, the idea was always about shining a light into the darkness-getting rid of the shadows, or at least showing them to be only shadows, and not the monsters of our imagination.)..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:07 AM

Pedant's corner:

English speaking countires are the only ones who celebrate Easter (Blackcatter)

We say 'Ostern' and we don't think of Germany as an English speaking country.

Wolfgang

(Silly German joke, and I'll have to stretch the language quite a bit to make it understandable in English: "Happy Eastern" "Thanks, but I personally prefer a happy western")

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:18 AM

As a Pagan myself, I am unfortunately no stranger to the kind of fear and ignorance as demonstrated by this old lady. I certainly hope that she will be able to be "enlightened" somewhat.

Reading this thread put me in mind of someone we have in Sydney, who calls himself "Yuri the Storyteller". An important feature of his performance is to have the lights in the room dimmed, light a candle, tell his story, and at the end to dramatically blow the candle out to signify the end of the story, at which point the lights are turned on again. He is a master of his craft, and none of it has anything to do with witchcraft or anything like it, of course. You can read about him here

Here is one comment that has been written about him:

Sydney professional storyteller, Yuri, is once more our guest. The enclosed documentation tells you about the man, but it does little to prepare you for the impact - the magic of his reading. All the lights are turned off. Then, by the light of a single candle, Yuri starts his storytelling. In a storyteller less rooted in the storytelling traditions, this would be sheer gimmickery. Yet, be it an extract from "Cannery Row", a Celtic myth, or set in the foreboding of a Slavic forest, Yuri's candle is a natural adjunct to his storytelling. Actors would murder for his vocal delivery - and an ear which allows him to master all accents and dialects. He is not to be missed, for he is possibly the best storyteller in Australia." - Bill Iden, secretary Poets At The Pub (PATP) Newcastle.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:09 AM

Only English-speakers celebrate Easter??? Better warn the Church of Room and the Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches that they're offside!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:17 AM

I think it's really sad whenever one fear-based reaction begets another one.... that these matters are so often perceived as two differing and opposing sides.... when actually what you usually have is people who actually share a commonality-- fear-- that could move them toward a different way of responding. Reactivity is so normal but so NOT constructive. I grieve when I see anyone dramatizing a belief system in such a way that what they primarily portray is a lack of deep, inner peace. To me, that shows a need for loving reassurance, but instead what so often happens is mutual intimidation. And there's the challenge, eh? How to respond so that real connection can breed real conversation, real relationship?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Cluin
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:21 AM

I saw it as just a reaching-back to the old storyteller-around-the-campfire idea, myself. Don't they tell ghost stories at bible camps?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:23 AM

Yes Cluin - back in the days when I used to go to them, they did.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:16 PM

Yes, the remarks concerning the celebration of Easter were first of all inaccurate and then misunderstood. The poster originally meant that the name "Easter" is only used in English-speaking countries. Actually, as Wolfgang points out, it is Germanic-speaking countries (and English is still at its base a Germanic language) that use the old Teutonic name.

It was apparently misunderstood by some who thought it meant other countries don't celebrate the Holiday. They do, but they call it something else: Paques in France, etc.

Finally, I'd like to point out that although Christmas IS based on a solar calendar, that does not make it any less Pagan. it was fixed at its current date during Roman times, because Christianity became the official religion of the empire at a time when Mithraism, a pagan religion, was the religion of the troops. In order to ease the conversion of the troops to Christianity, the Church decided to celebrate the birth of Christ when the troops were accustomed to celebrating the birth of Mithras, in December. Before that, no one had any idea when Christ was born, as the Bible gives no evidence of the date.

When Christmas arrived in Europe, many previously Pagan customs attached themselves to it (the decorating of trees, for example, which began in Germany and Austria and first came to the US with Pennsylvania Germans). So Christmas, too, is a typical Pagan festival with Christian trappings. So inconvenient for fundamentalists!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:41 PM

Well, I personally would like to decorate trees at Yule like my Odin-worshipping ancestors did, but Decorum (and the Law) Prevents it.

Darn shame, 'cause I've got a little list.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:13 PM

Christmas is about celebrating the event, not the date. The same as Easter, where the date moves around.

Dates are pretty arbitrary. When people get all excited about how it has to be one particular date rather than another, that is a kind of superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:24 PM

Thank you Nerd for clarifying my comments.

Yes, the German name is 'Ostern' which comes from the Germanic goddess Ostara/Eostare.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:32 PM

Pagan holidays and their Christian connections:

Samhain / Hallowe'en (All Hallow's Eve) a primarily Celtic holiday: All Saint's Day.

Winter Solstice / Yule / Saturnalia: Christmas

Imbolc / Brigid's Day (Celtic): Candlemas (and Groundhog's Day)

Spring Equinox / Ostara: Easter

Bealtaine (Celtic, once again) / Walpurgusnacht (Germanic): May Day

Midsummer / Summer Solstice / Litha: St. John the Baptist Day

Lammas / Lughnasadh (Celtic): Feast of St. Peter's Chains

Autumnal Equinox / Mabon: General harvest festivals

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 14 May 04 - 04:56 AM

And now that the Home Office are in the process of making Paganism an official Religion over here in the UK we will be allowed the same rights as our Christian and Muslim and the others as they do in the work place. I will be entitled to time off to observe my religious holidays!!....I will be printing off the press release and handing it to my boss!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:14 AM

I didn't know that catsPH!! What an enlightened thing to happen in the UK, considering all the trouble that was gone to eradicate Paganism (will this include the Druids as well?) for centuries.

I for one, will be posting blackcatter's list on my fridge!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Ellenpoly
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:15 AM

That last post was from me, just not at my own computer...xx..(A Pagan at Heart) ;-D...e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:22 AM

It Paganism in general so it covers all the denominations of....

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:58 AM

That IS very enlightened of them catsPHiddle. I'm amazed. I can't picture anything like that happening here in Oz in the foreseeable future!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:36 AM

Interestingly, I heard a piece on National Public Radio yesterday that said that Wicca is becoming an "in" thing among teenage girls in come areas. They have major websites and exchange favorite 'spells' and herbal cures. etc...*smile*

It seems harmless enough to me...on the surface....but the thing that came through to me from listening to several interviews with the young practitioners is that they were explicitly doing it because it was more 'interesting'...One girl said that her parents were evangelical Christians, but that when she tried to practice Christianity, it was like "talking to air". She 'felt' that when she began talking to/praying to "the Goddess", etc., she felt connected to the Earth and life in general...etc...

It fascinates me that there was no claim for **TRUTH**, or documentation...they just spoke as if it (Wicca) was better metaphor for the feelings that young girls have...and more 'fun'. They got to do things-- dress up, prepare spells, trade secrets, cure problems and feel like they were really 'connected'.

I guess I see the attraction, but I am bemused at the mindset that allows them to 'plug in' whatever belief system most strikes their fancy. *wry smile*.....ah, well...perhaps that is a more honest way of doing it than the way many people adopt more traditional religions.

(trying to remember the websites names) I suppose a search would find them easily.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:57 AM

because pagan beliefs are so ancient, and natural, well, in some ways they're already inside us.

and examining attitudes, choosing values, is part growing up. otherwise we'd all be robots.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:18 AM

One girl said that her parents were evangelical Christians, but that when she tried to practice Christianity, it was like "talking to air". She 'felt' that when she began talking to/praying to "the Goddess", etc., she felt connected to the Earth and life in general...etc...

Actually I like very much what that girl said. It pretty much describes the way I felt when I discovered paganism.

I was brought up in the Methodist church, and I always felt like an outsider. As far as I was concerned, God was a disembodied entity "up there". It had no meaning for me. I never bought into it.

It was not until many years later that I was able to put words to what I felt, when I started reading about paganism. I was not a young teenager, either. But the feeling of connection and being part of everything was what made it feel "right" from the beginning.

It fascinates me that there was no claim for **TRUTH**, or documentation...

Since when has that been a prerequisite for any of the world's religions?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:24 AM

ah, well...perhaps that is a more honest way of doing it than the way many people adopt more traditional religions.

I think you are right there, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:24 PM

I also liked what that girl said, Bill.

Let's face it, there are trappings in the form of ceremonies, costumes, rites, you name it, in just about every religion. Would it mean more to this girl if she simply adopted what her parents believed rather than to admit being drawn elsewhere?

For me, there never seemed a place for the things I connected with, especially being a woman. I always felt left out of the equation in so many of the religions I explored.

I still don't need the ceremonies, and therefore will not call myself anything more than a Pagan at Heart...but for this girl, I applaud her independence of spirit.

And as they say...Blessed Be..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:39 PM

*coughs gently*

Well...I am LDS...but I live in the South. We consider Western Mormons a bit weird but mostly harmless :) Personally I don't see anything satanic about lighting a candle before telling a story. Granny sounds like she's a bit of a fundamentalist Mormon, poor thing.

No we don't use candles in our church on a regular basis and no...I don't have two or three moms living in a compound sorry to disappoint ya ;O)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 May 04 - 10:15 AM

To any mudcatters who really want to avoid any pagan celebrations here's a few of the things you should stay well away from:

all superstitions (walking under ladders, breaking mirrors, spilling salt etc);

all Christmas/midwinter festivities not involving praying or praising or giving thanks (such as eating and drinking a lot, giving presents, 'Christmas' trees, holly, ivy, yule logs, candles);

New Year first footing and drinking;

Easter eggs and bunnies;

harvest/thanksgiving meals;

autumn bonfires, whatever their 'reason';

anything at all to do with hallowe'en (unless it just involves praying).

And make sure that you go to work on 1st May.

I'm not trying to undermine anyone's religious beliefs. But you should realise that much of what we take for granted is a hangover from pagan times. Doing any of the above doesn't make you a pagan, and many of these things are treasured by us folkies not because they are pagan, but because they are 'traditional'.

I still remember somebody trying to ban 'Dungeons and Dragons' because it mentioned more than one god, and people leafleting against the aromatherpy shop where my girlfriend works because they thought it witchcraft.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: HuwG
Date: 15 May 04 - 12:46 PM

In the last national census in Britain, a number of people put "Jedi Knight" as their religion.

It was objected that "Jedi Knight" wasn't a recognised religion, and had no commonly agreed creed. The JK's promptly issued one:

<Obi-wan Kenobi> The Force, Luke, is like bodge tape. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the Universe together </Obi-wan Kenobi>

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:20 PM

LTS -

From 'way back at the top:

How about she uses a tambourine jingle to get their attention (works well at my daughters' school) rather than the candle?

- Bell - Book - Candle -

So you'd have the bell and the book instead of the book and the candle. Same problem (and perhaps just "confirming" the "witchcraft") for those obsessed with demons.

John

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Pogo, I've known LDS folks both Eastern and Western, and mostly they're a nice bunch. And I can deal with the missionaries -- I just tell them "No, thanks." (FWIW, I have a copy of the Book of Mormon in my desk at work so that I can surprise people -- I ripped it off from a motel in Utah. And yes, I've read it. I've read a lot of things.

Anyway, Granny didn't show up for the story hour on Thursday, so our storyteller didn't get a chance to talk with her. We'll just have to see what happens.

Back in Cincinnati, the saying was "Altitude is attitude" -- those who lived on the hills looked down their noses at those who resided on the hillsides or lower. There's a bit of that around here, too (and the hills are LOTS higher than in Ohio!), and Granny lives in one of those areas.

I'm not familiar with the heirarchy of the LDS church (except the very higher-ups, like the President and the Apostles), but there's a man who's above a Bishop working for the city -- if needed I'll bring him into the fray. I hope, though, that simply explaining the Granny what's going on will do it.

Here's something interesting, or at least I found it so. In the US, businesses cannot descriminate on the basis of religion and must make every effort, within the bounds of good business practice, to accomodate your religious beliefs. This includes Ba'hai, Judaism, Catholicism, Santeria, and others -- including Wicca.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Megan L
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:02 PM

"we have nothing to fear except fear itself." pity fear of fear is stranaling our world

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:49 PM

The U.S. has recognized Wicca and a number of other Pagan religions for quite a few years - The military will put Wicca on your dogtag if requested and required their base chaplains to work with Pagans, tohught most do so reluctantly, but Pagans don't need the chaplains to do much, anyhow, Paganism being pretty focused on the "do-it-yourself" plan of religion. Here, in Orlando, when we had the Naval Training Center (and thousands of "squids" coming through the doors every year, the local Wiccan/Pagan group (The Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida) worked with the the base chaplain to help those sailors who are Pagan to connect with the local Pagan community and the bookstores.

Know the old joke - what is a Pagan cathedral? A metaphysical bookstore.

Since a lot of employers are beginning to give employees flexible vacation/sick days, Pagans (and Jews, Muslims, etc.) are beginning to actually take their holidays off.

--------------

By the way - since I live in Florida which has weather/seasons in little relation to much of the northern hemisphere, I came up with names for the sabbats (solar holidays) and full moons. I drew on the concept that natural Florida is the only thing that my community has in common. There's no great pattern to the lists - Some things are tied to a particular time of year, but not all.

SOLAR FEASTS

Winter Solstice          - Feast of Citrus
1st cross-1/4 (Imbolc)   - Feast of the Herons
Spring Equinox          - Feast of Flowers
2nd cross-1/4 (Bealtane) - Feast of Life
Summer Solstice          - Feast of the Sun
3rd cross-1/4 (Lammas)   - Feast of Rain
Autumnal Equinox         - Feast of the Mosquitoes
4th cros-1/4 (Samhain)   - Feast of the Ancestors

MOONS (they are actually the 1st full Moon thru the 13th, but the general corresponding months help me visualize the general time of year).

January   - Manatee Moon
February - Egret Moon
March    - Scrub Pine Moon
April    - Lizard Moon
May       - Bear Moon
June      - Cypress Moon
July      - Storm Moon
August    - Gator Moon
September - Camphor Moon
October   - Pumpkin Moon
November - Wild Turkey Moon
December - Orange Moon
13th      - Shaman Moon

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Jack in the Green
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:12 AM

"And now that the Home Office are in the process of making Paganism an official Religion over here in the UK..."

This is thanks to the EU, not our government. If Tony Blair had his way we'd all be wearing puritan garb and be forced to listen to one of his approved sermons at the local church every Sunday. I can see it now - a painting on the domed ceiling of Saint Paul's depicting George Dubya as God, and Tone as Jesus sitting at his right hand, with Cherie as the Blessed Virgin...


I attended a pagan event last year in Croydon, and there was the obligatory protest by local Christians, but strangely there was a group of American fundamentalist Christians who had come over to the UK just to demonstrate at this event. They were very unpleasant to people waiting to enter the venue (including frightening some small children) and they took video footage of as many people as possible. Eventually a morris team who were appearing at the event came out and danced and played their instruments to drown them out. How desperate and fearful can some people be to fly thousands of miles just to make a nuisance of themselves in their ludicrous attempt to 'save our souls'?

As for the Mormons, there is one thing that scares me about them - the Osmonds. AARRGGHHHHHH!!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:46 AM

I attended a pagan event last year in Croydon, and there was the obligatory protest by local Christians, but strangely there was a group of American fundamentalist Christians who had come over to the UK just to demonstrate at this event. They were very unpleasant to people waiting to enter the venue (including frightening some small children) and they took video

They do have a way of sticking their nose in places where it doesn't belong.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:23 AM

Hmm. People who feel the need to pressure and bully people into believing as they do are I think insecure with their own religious beliefs to begin with. Those folks should not have done that, it was very rude and intrusive of them.

I met a girl once at a community college who was pagan. I listened to what she had to say and though I did not share her beliefs and told her so I still respected her right to believe as she saw fit. She seemed surprised at my attitude and told me that I was the first Christian who had not told her she was going to hell for what she believed :)

I try never to judge someone on what they believe or make assumptions about them. Mostly cause so many times people make all sorts of crazy assumptions about Mormons, but most of them are just plain funny and I'm not the kind to get easily offended. I'm like " Okay I will do all I can to be open-minded and understand why you believe as you do and I only ask that you do the same for me. " I grew up with a family bookshelf full of everything from the Koran to the story of Passover to anti-Mormon literature to a pamphlet on the Ba'haian faith so I consider myself pretty well-rounded.

Oh yeah thanks Rapaire for taking the time to read the Book of Mormon and LOL I promise not to send missionaries after you since you're not interested. Hope things work out with the granny. That's true a lot of times, the more prosperous folks are the more they tend to look down their noses at people which is a shame, it shouldn't be that way.

And the Osmonds scare the crap out of me too. O_O those big white teeth make me think they're gonna bite me.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:19 PM

Jack in the Green.....which Pagan event was that?? I was stewarding at the PF Conference in November last year and I only saw a couple of Christians protesting outside the venue...and we took them out a cup of tea because it was cold and raining. They thanked us for being so thoughtful!

I don't like people forcing their beliefs onto other people. Everytime I go to the market in Green Street on a Saturday there are group of people preaching and telling the masses that they have done wrong and they will be going to hell right next to the bus stop. I just ignore them. We don't have the JW's knocking on our door when they found out that we don't believe and they really couldn't convert us!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:39 PM

:D We had JW's visit us a bunch of times and leave pamphlets. Last time they came my mom told them she was LDS and offered them a book of Mormon. They never came back. I can't imagine why. ;O)

So are Wiccans and Pagans two different words for the same group of people? Or are they different classifications? And do you have a specific pantheon of gods that you worship or is it more of an individual preference?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:52 PM

A Wiccan follows one particular from of Witchcraft. Paganism is a term like Christianity...it has many denominations. All witches are Pagan but not all Pagans are Witches....

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 05:21 PM

So are Wiccans and Pagans two different words for the same group of people? Or are they different classifications? And do you have a specific pantheon of gods that you worship or is it more of an individual preference?

Wicca, Druidry, Aative American Spirituality, The Hawaiian's and their numerous assorted gods and goddesses,Santeria, Voodoo, Witchcraft, etc are all pagan faiths.

Now that I have probably made that as clear as mud. I will say that almost ALL Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan.

Most Wiccans live according to tge rede. I will quote an abbreciated form of the rede.

Bide the Wiccan law ye must;
in perfect love and perfect trust.
Eight words the Rede fulfill
"An; ye harm none; do what ye will"
What te send out comes back to thee;
so ever mind the rule of three
Practise this with mind and heart;
and merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 May 04 - 07:41 PM

It can also be argued (and beleived by me and most of my Pagan friends) that Pagan isn't really an umbrella term for a bunch of "denominations" or "sects," bust actually an umbrella term for a group of diverse religions that are different than the familiy of "Judeo-Christian" religions.

My practices as an Witch (ecclectic Wiccan), the practices of my friend who follows Asatru (Norse Paganism), my friends who practice REAL Native American Spirituality (still not called by any name by most Indians), my friends who practice Shinto (including the first non-ethnicly Japanese Shinto priest) all have some different rituals, traditions, terminology, songs/chants, ritual tools, philosophy, festivals/ceremonies and more. This is much more than the differences of most Christian denominations (at least the mainstream Protestant traditions).

Yes, the different Pagan religions have some fundamental ties - nature being one of the largest, but Christians have largely turned their back on living with the changes of the seasons and the ebb and flow of nature. Ther are other things like the concept of polytheism, but as the old joke goes, if you ask 10 Pagans what are their beliefs about the nature of deities, you'll get 13 answers.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:11 PM

Hm...

So Blackcatter what is your means of living with the changes of the seasons and the ebb and flow of nature then? Not being sarcastic or trying to attack your beliefs or anything :) I'm just curious. Does it relate to celebrating the equinoxes and soltisces and so on? Do you believe in organic gardening and vegetarianism and all that?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:33 PM

Hi Pogo! Not still in the Okefenokee, are you?

Well, I do celebrate the equinoxes and the solstices as well as "cross-quarter" days (days that fall between each solstice and equinox - which is a Celtic tradition). I also follow the lunar cycles - doing rituals on both full and dark moon nights. But that's just the ritual/ceremonial part of my life.

I do believe (and practice) organic gardening, but I'm not a vegetarian. You'll find that a lot of Pagans aren't vegetarians because living a more natural life (so to speak) doesn't mean one has to limit oneself to plant life. I eat very little meat - maybe less than 10 oz, a week but I also eat eggs and dairy (organic).

But basically, I'm aware of the changes of the seasons and the interaction of plants and animals, pay attention to astronomical movement (partly for astrological reasons, though I'm not really into Astrology - but mostly because the movements of the planets, etc, are interesting. I'm also very interested in rocks and minerals (for magical purposes, but also because they're so interesting.

The rituals I practice are primarily tied to nature and the change of seasons. This is quite unlike much of Christian, Jewish and Muslim observances. Most Pagans do not have holy days / holidays to commemorate an important person or event. True each of our major celebrations (Sabbats) have a connection with both goddesses and gods, but those deities are inherently tied to that time of the year, hence, calling on their energy during ritual. Some of the Sabbats have names tied to the gods - such as Lughnasadh (the god Lugh) and Breedmas or Bridget's Day, named for the Celtic Irish goddess Bridget (which the Catholic Church "elevated" to sainthood).

But hey - the days of the week in English are either Roman or Norse gods:

Sunday: the Sun's Day (most often felt to be represented by a god.)
Monday: the Moon's Day (most often felt to be represented by a goddess.)
Tuesday: Tyr's Day (Norse god)
Wednesday: Woden or Wotan's Day (Norse)
Thursday : Thor's Day (Norse)
Friday: Frigg's Day (Norse)
Saturday: Saturn's Day (Roman - but a deity embraces in Northern Europe during and after Roman expansion into Gaul and Britain.)

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:02 AM

Here's some more information if anyone is interested. If not - ignore it.

I wrote these descriptions a few years back. They're basically Wiccan in orientation. The Wiccan Wheel of the Year starts at dawn on the day after Hallowe'en/Samhain, so the first ritual is Yule. The descriptions illustrate the several levels of meaning in each of the Sabbats.

YULE: Longest night of the year, a celebration honoring the eventual return of the dominance of the Sun, birth of the Sun god, Yule log - traditionally a phallic representation of the dying power of the Oak King (Sun) - giving warmth in the cold, sometimes Yule is a time for a vigil waiting for the Sun to finally arise - the actual birth of the Sun - the births of most Sun Gods were celebrated at the Winter Solstice: Saturn, Wotan, Mithra, Jesus, the Christians adopted 12/25 in 273 C.E. Jesus was likely born in March or April.

IMBOLC: The recovery of the Goddess from giving birth, Brigid's Day, honoring the Celtic Goddess of Fire, Fire festival to encourage the Sun to hurry it's return, purification after the shut-in life of Winter and readying of the household for Spring, time for focusing on the family, the working for crafts - making & mending of tools needed the rest of the year, initiations into covens, Scandinavian festival includes women wearing crowns of lit candles, blessing of children who make it thru Winter - borrowed by Christianity in Christening, Candlemas is the time of the Purification of Mary - 40 days since the birth of Jesus as she was not "pure" enough to re-enter the temple.

OSTARA (festival of the Goddess Eostar): Spring is here! time for planting and the raising of newly born animals, Nature Fertility festival, Puberty rites, Easter is named after the Germanic Goddess Eostar - eggs & bunnies = fertility symbols, eggs were painted with fertility symbols and hidden in the newly-seeded fields to encourage growth or they were cast into fires as offerings to the goddess and god, the goddess Eostar's traditional escort was a rabbit, Ostara was the time for the resurrection of the Goddess from the underworld - hence a perfect time for the resurrection of Christ. While Christianity has tried to overcome the "Lunar focus" of pagan religions - the date of Easter, and hence much of the Ecclesiastical calendar, is set thru both the Solar & Lunar calendars - the First Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox.

BELTANE: May Day, or Lady Day, flower festival - flowers were gathered for the home and maypole, Roman festival of Florinalia - Flora - Goddess of Flowers, the fertility of the Goddess & rite of manhood of the God, Maypole - the symbolic union of the Goddess: the wreath, and the God: the pole - through union, the crops and animals are blessed, consummation of "courting" couples to see if the lady would "take" by Midsummer, best time of the year to communicate with the Fairy folk, time for protection spells as well as fertility.

LITHA/MIDSUMMER: Longest day of the year, Fire Festival to celebrate the full glory of the Earth Mother, the Goddess is pregnant, this is the time in the community for handfastings or weddings - if a couple was pregnant from Beltane they would get handfasted - if not they would wait until they did or separate, time for a break from tending the fields, everything is growing, plants animals and pregnant moms, big festival for working with community, magic includes love and healing - most powerful Solar day for magic.

LUGHNASADH (festival of the God Lugh) /LAMMAS (bread mass): First harvest, leafy greens, berries, give thanks for the fertility of the land, it's the feast of the Celtic Sun God Lugh - renowned for wisdom and knowledge, the God is losing his strength, the time to celebrate those moving past the raising of kids, the feast of Bread - the first grains are harvested and the rest of the growing year cna be forseen.

MABON (festival of the Goddess Mab): Second harvest, look back on the year, Goddess is entering her crone phase, God is ritually sacrificed - in order to let his son rule the next year as well as his blood to bring fertility to the land for the next year's crops, croning and eldering are done, time to begin to take stock for the coming of Winter, magic includes long-term love, strength and completion of large projects.

SAMHAIN (Summer's end): Celtic New Year, final harvest, The Goddess travels into the Underworld thus bringing "death" upon the world, Persephone myth, animals are slaughtered that may not make it through winter, Samhain Eve - the "veil" between our world and the realm of Spirit is at its thinnest, thus communication between the living and the dead is easier, Mexico - Day of the dead: visiting ancestors at graveyards, Europe: people traditionally carved gourds & placed them on their doorsteps to scare away unwanted spirits.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Jack in the Green
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:57 AM

"Jack in the Green.....which Pagan event was that??"

It was the Witchfest organised by the Children of Artimis. I did go to the Pagan Fed Conference as well.

I think the reason the American fundamentalist Christian group made the effort to turn up to Witchfest was the CoA advertised it as the worlds biggest gathering of witches and wiccans.

Incidentally - I'm neither a witch nor a wiccan, just a common or garden pagan who reveres nature and celebrates the changing seasons, and personally I don't believe in Gods and Goddesses. So really I'm an atheist pagan. Some people seem to have trouble getting their heads around that :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:13 PM

For all those interested myself and a group of friends are holding our Annual Fancy Dress Yule Ball on 20th November in London. All porfits are going towards the conservation of Ravens Wood near Tring. If you are interested PM me for more details or come and find me at The Beltane Bash (30th+31st May) at Conway Hall in London.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Nerd
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:34 PM

I also like what the Wiccan girls said above (to regress a bit). It is true that evangelical protestantism tends to be light on ritual and spectacle, which many people find a comforting part of religion. I think it is mature and honest of them to come out and say this, rather than "I just don't believe in that Jesus guy. For me, it's all about Artemis."

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:10 PM

Nerd - that is why we say that former Catholics make the best Pagans - they understand ritual.


Hey Jack. I describe myself as a Athiest Pagan as well. I consider what others call gods and goddesses as sort of a "Universal" energy. Energy that people can tap into to work magic in a similar way that we "tap" into the electrical grid to run our computers.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:12 AM

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Great info, Blackcatter, thanks!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:54 AM

GUEST 09:12 AM :

You have an incorrect quote. The original is " Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live." Check the Hebrew.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:03 PM

GUESTS are pre-litterate anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Jackie in the Green
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:35 PM

I was 'GUEST Jack in the Green', but decided to join as you seem a nice bunch.

"Hey Jack. I describe myself as a Athiest Pagan as well."

Nice to know there are two of us Blackcatter :-)

catsPHiddle - I'm going to the Beltain Bash too.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:19 PM

Welcome to the membership Jackie!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Jack....see you there....

You will see me with the Morrigan Giant...I'll be leading the drumming with Dave. You will also see me in the closing ritual on the Monday. I'll be playing the fiddle and the drum for it!

Come and say Hi!....if you can't find me ask someone for Khatt and they will let you know where I am!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:02 PM

From way back....Tony Blair's a catholic!!!! He gets his orders from elsewhere!!!!

Wow weee what a thread! It's just like the discussions we have on our pagan circle on my work's intranet.

I always say, the best way to start an argument is to lock two pagans in a room.

Back to the original point. I was dragged up a catholic and a candle was always a sign of meditation. You were to be quiet and think. I think it's an excellent way to tell stories. Book at bedtime with a dash of mystery.

I'm a Druish pagan (Parker has put foward that he's "Vaguely Pagan") and I have absolutely no problems with the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's all the churchy stuff what comes after that gives me the gip. But in my personal view, that's organised religion for you.

I shall be at the Beltaine Bash this year also - Cat, the fancy dress thing sounds great - and should I ever be granted leave to celebrate what I consider to be important days, I shall jolly well do so!!!   Huzzah!

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: s6k
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:37 AM

pagans.. watch the wicker man

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: s6k
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:38 AM

post number 100 i thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: el ted
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:38 AM

post no 100. I thank you. My work here is done.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Green Man
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:30 AM

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

I ain't suffering at all!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: s6k
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:46 AM

ted you bloody idiot you got post 101, or 102. I GOT 100. jeez are you losing your mind in your old age or what!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:09 PM

s6k - it doesn't count if you post twice to get 100.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: s6k
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:17 PM

oh my god. i will fight this rule to the death!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:27 PM

It's more powerful than a rule - it's a common assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 03:28 PM

You have an incorrect quote. The original is " Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live." Check the Hebrew

You are ABSOLUTELY correct Bruce. The verse "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" does not talk about witches at all. It was about people that poisoined wells.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:46 PM

And the old testament has all sorts of "witchery" going on.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:27 PM

[drawl] H'lo Blackcatter-piggle, yep still in th' swamp. An' wouldn't have it no other way. Places like Detroit or Fort Mudge is too high on th' high and lootin' with th' falootin' for a simple 'possum like me.

Hm all very interestin'. You learn somethin' new everyday.

Well, bottom-line I reckon my christianin' suits me fine an' I reckon your paganin' suits you fine :) Seely Vee as they say in Canada.[/drawl]

Now I think I shall go frighten some Jehovah Witnesses by telling them I'm Mormon. We have horns growing out of our head and we eat small children you know ;O) only with cocoa instead of coffee.

muwhahha...take care all!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:21 PM

Well, if you ever feel like coming out of the swwamp and drying off - come on down to Orlando and say "hey."

I get along with many Christians just fine. Many mainstream Christians are pretty laid back about religion and are more accepting than their religious leaders would like. It's called living in the real world. People work in offices with people who have a pentagram necklace and the person is nice, professional, a hard worker and has a happy family life. Pretty hard to think that God is allowing all that to go on in some one consorting with the devil. Same thing with homosexuality. Most people have better things to worry about that other people who do things "weird" in the privacy of their own homes.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:54 PM

I get along with many Christians just fine. Many mainstream Christians are pretty laid back about religion and are more accepting than their religious leaders would like. It's called living in the real world. People work in offices with people who

I get along with SOME "christians".

I had the pleasure of teaching a "Christian" how I do healings just this morning.

I taughts Reiki and Qigong to a Cathollic friend of mine about 10 years ago.

The proselytizing "Christians" that will not listen to reason; I threaten to call the cops because soliciting is not permitted in the apt complex.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:59 PM

Two Bears - I just answer the door naked. Usually sends them running.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:27 AM

About a week ago a couple of men came to the door with books in their hands. They looked like Mormon missionaries, but they were middle-aged, and they wanted to talk about religion. I told them I'd rather not, and they said all right, and then one asked me "Will you tell me if you believe in God?"

I thought that wasn't quite playing the game but I was polite; I said "Well, maybe not the same way you do. But I won't try to convert you." and they gave me funny little smiles and went away.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:10 PM

Good comeback, Clint, I must remember that!

..xx..e

(Blackcatter, remind me to always call ahead!) :-D

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:06 PM

{OD thanks Blackcatter for the laugh and the invitation!

Clint sounds like you were graced with the presence of Jehovos (as I call 'em) Mormon missionaries come in three kinds, the elders, the sisters and the old couples. The first two groups are generally kids nineteen and up, the last are grandmas and grandpas who've opted to serve a mission together

My mother visited a Buddhist temple as part of a religion class she took in school and she loved it. She said it was so wonderfully peaceful and quiet...they did a session of meditation which she wasn't so crazy about but only because she has a hard time sitting still for long periods of time.

So yeah...always been taught to love my neighbor as myself :O) and I really do believe that. Coming from a background of Mormon, Southern Baptist, Bahai'an, Catholic, Methodist, Moravian, Fire-Baptized Pentacostal Holiness...yeah it's all about the love, man. Otherwise it'd be frickin' anarchy |OD

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:00 PM

My family claims Catholicism back to around 800 CE. I dunno, I wasn't around then. One of 'em disagreed with Otto v. Bismarck back around 1860, when O. v. B. wanted to make Lutheranism the state religion of Germany or something.

Me, I'm against any state-approved religion, even atheism. I really and truly don't care WHAT you do a) in private, that b) involves consenting and knowledgable adult humans, c) doesn't make bother me, d) isn't forced on others, and e) doesn't make much of a mess if you do it at my place (or you clean it up and/or pay for the damage).

I've got my religious beliefs. It's the churches I got a problem with.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:11 PM

My son told me that the rules for Mormons concerning missionary work had changed. Evidently the young men used to have to go away for two years, or something, to be missionarys. Now he says they're allowed to stay home and work regular jobs in the daytime, and do missionary work at night, over the internet, through chat groups and such, instead.

He says the Church refers to this as a nocturnal e-mission.

Is this true?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:51 PM

Ellen, do you seriously think that if you called before dropping by that I wouldn't be nekkid for you?!

As I said a long time ago (beyond how nice and intelligent you are, of course) you are easy on the eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Hm *thoughtful* honestly I have not heard anything about that. I'm pretty sure though that run-of-the-mill proselyting is still going strong. Young men and women when they reach certain ages are still encouraged to serve missions, these generally last for two years and they are sent where-ever they are needed most.

It's a individual choice though and one that is approached with much thoughtfulness and prayer. Me personally I never served a mission but I'm still a member in good standing. One can be a missionary without the whole going around knocking on people's doors thing, you see.

I have a friend who served his mission in Rome, Italy...I'll ask him about it :)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 12:02 AM

There was a documentary on it on PBS recently - followed a group of of young men in Germany doing their missionary work.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:27 AM

Hey Blackcatter, I wasn't concerned about YOUR eyes!

(But sure do like the compliments, though warning you that photos are only images caught in time...and time has passed.)

;-)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:09 PM

Whatsa matter - you haven't let yourself go?

Or are you a "goer" Nudge, nudge.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: dianavan
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:19 PM

Went to the coffee house last night and heard a wonderful song. The chorus was something like: "They all love their Gods, Why can't they love each other?"

Thats why I couldn't relate to any of the Gods of my childhood. Churches are also a problem to me. Besides that, seems that all those religious folks had no trouble invoking the name of their God in war.

I found the Goddess quite by accident. It was a big surprise and I kept her a secret for a long time because I was afraid people would think I was a witch or crazy or something. Now that she has become more 'popular', I'm not afraid of mentioning her effect on my life.

I still do not like ritual or ceremony. I still have my 'private relationship' with her but I am very pleased that other women are discovering the Goddess within themselves. She is a gentle guide and protects me and my children.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:45 PM

And not just women.

I try to connect with the universal feminine energy as much as possible.

WARNING: Songs added to a B.S. Thread:


She Changes
Starhawk

She changes everything she touches
And everything she touches, changes
REPEAT

Change us, touch us
Touch us and change us
REPEAT

We are changers
Everything we touch can change

-----------

The Earth is our Mother
American Indian

The earth is our mother
We must take care of her
The earth is our mother
We must take care of her

CHORUS
Hai yunga ho yunga hey yung yung
Hey yunga ho yunga hey yung yung

Her sacred ground we walk upon
With every step we take
The air we breath renews us
With every breath we take

------------

We are the Flow
Shekhinah Mountainwater

We are the flow We are the ebb
We are the weavers We are the web

We are the weavers We are the web
We are the spiders We are the thread

We are the spiders We are the thread
We are the Witches Back from the dead

We are the Witches Back from the dead
We are the flow We are the ebb

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:14 PM

Another question (several) for the wiccans and pagans--

This "The Goddess" you mention-- is that all one person? I mean, if one of you knows the Goddess, and another one does too, do you know the same person, or do you each mean something so specifically personal that it is unique to you? Does the Goddess assert she is THE Goddess? Is she a person, in terms of being a defined indiviudual, or is it a catchword for your shared sense of the feminine?

I'm really asking. PM if you prefer.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:32 PM

You don't ask the easy ones, do you WYSIWYG?

I think you'll find it as simple and complex as each individual, as the Earth, as the Universe.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:56 PM

Susan,

The easiest answer is "yes."

Look back over the thread, we've sort of covered it, when talking about deities - goes, etc.

The Goddess is feminine energy or the female form or deity or something like that. For some, she has many names (as in the goddesses of mythologies you know such as Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Celtic, Norse, etc.)

Typically, in the Pagan religion of Wicca, there are two "generic" deities that are called upon during ritual - the Goddess and the God. These represent receptive and projective energy - sort of the ac (alternating current) of the Universe. The energy represented by the Goddess and God are felt to course through all living things as well as non-living things. and one cannot do magic without tapping into it.

Many Wiccans call on the Goddess and God and many other use particular gods for particular purposes. Some even have their own special gods that they call upon during all rituals. A good friend of mine considers herself a daughter of the Norse goddess Frigg, for example.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 May 04 - 07:05 PM

This "The Goddess" you mention-- is that all one person? I mean, if one of you knows the Goddess, and another one does too, do you know the same person, or do you each mean something so specifically personal that it is unique to you?

A very good question. But couldn't it be asked just as well about the conventional Jewish/Christian/Muslim God - the old sourpuss?

Of course, if you did ask it about Him, in the middle ages or the G. W. Bush administration, you'd probably be burned at the stake. So I won't ask.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: dianavan
Date: 22 May 04 - 08:30 PM

The Goddess is not a person. The Goddess has many faces but basically she is the virgin, the mother and the crone. She is the giver of life and the destroyer. She is the mother of God.

Does she speak to me? Not with words.

How did I discover her everlasting presence? When I studied history and anthropology. I realized that all of the paternalistic religions had, through the years, done everything they could to destroy her people, including genocide and slavery and yet, she was so strong that vestiges of Her remained with us today. I turned to Her and rejected the God of war.

In all Her forms, and all her names, she is essentially the same. The same Goddess that was worshipped worldwide before the separation of nations by the war God. She was one thing we could all agree on and She would provide my salvation and perhaps the salvation of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:30 AM

"I try to connect with the universal feminine energy as much as possible"-Blackcatter

"Um hummmmm"-Ellenpoly

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 23 May 04 - 03:50 PM

Well I did say I'm a flirt.

If I can't date women, I'll work with the Goddess.




As the old jokes goes: The Christians say that their God is coming - where mine came three times last night.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:11 AM

Sonnet 27/11/00                                CDXCII

Are words all I may offer, to bring smile
To muse who brings those words out of my heart?
So far away, it is not just the mile
That measures distance: Years I've practiced Art
Now stand as barrier to further gift.
Yet, I would that my verse seal out the hours
To hold those moments when my muse might sift
Fingers through leaves, or seek the scent of flowers.
Maiden, mother, crone- Do I in muse seek
To turn back time, or hold to fate? I ask,
But fear the answer. Heart would have me speak,
Though I would not this muse's light now mask.
I pray heart and desire might know the Truth,
But fear it, for I know no longer Youth.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:37 AM

Bearedbruce, have you wandered away from the other thread which holds so many of your Sonnets? Or are you just sharing the Joy?..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:42 AM

Maybe we should have a competition for Poet Laureate of the Mudcat. I'd just give it to Bruce, but considering the membership (like one of my favorites: Katlaughing) we really should have a competition.

What do you all think?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:28 PM

I hoped and thought maybe b.b. was addressing my question. I very much appreciate all the replies and PM. Lot to ponder.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:04 AM

dianavan, I can understand your rejection of the "war god", but aren't you ignoring such as The Morrigan when you characterize all "war deities" as male?

No, I'm not being a smart ass; I'm quite serious. It seems to me that such characterizations are "male" and "female" are not only counterproductive, but ignore the historical evidence of beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Yuo're right to some extent Rapaire, though there are few goddesses that are specifically "War Goddesses." But many deities of either sex had their violent streaks for various reasons.

Most of the deities who's "lives" are commonly found in European mythology were the major gods what were worshiped on a large scale, by nearly all the people in the particular culture (Roman, Norse, Celt, etc.) Because war is not a new idea and is (ironically) as human a trait as preservation of the species, it is natural that there would be gods of war - but most cultures had male gods of war.

There are variations, of course. To me one of the oddest things is that both the Japanese and the Finns consider the sun to be feminine and there primary deity a sun goddess.