BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi

Subject: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:33 AM

Passed on by request. This is of grave importance.
Some text deleted. mg


As a transportation battalion, my unit will be delivering the voting machines and the ballots to villages and cities throughout Iraq during the upcoming elections. (January30/31). Our convoys are prime targets for the insurgents because they do not want the equipment to arrive at the polling stations nor do they want the local Iraqi citizens to have the chance to vote; timely delivery must occur so that the elections occur.


I will pray with my soldiers before they leave on their convoys and move outside our installation gates here at Tallil. My soldiers are at the nerve center of the logistic operation to deliver the voting machines and election ballots. They will be driving to and entering the arena of the enemy. This is not a game for them it is a historical mission that is extremely dangerous. No voting machines or ballots. No elections. Your prayer support and God's intervention are needed to give democracy a chance in this war torn country.

Thank you for reading this e-mail. Please give this e-mail a wide dissemination. Thank you for your prayer support for me and my family. Stand firm in your battles.

---

I have his name and email etc. but for fear of him being somehow abused I will not put it up here. You can contact me privately for it and if I am comfortable with the notion, I will give it to you. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:42 AM

Oh christ, I thought the prayer request thing was being done elsewhere?

Why no prayer request for Sudan, hmmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:28 AM

"Stand firm in your battles."

This isn't prayer, it is propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:35 AM

I also note the request doesn't include the Iraqis, just the American troops and the American mission: the "free" election.

This is actually a perfect example of the Bush doctrine in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

This sounds legitimate and the guy and his buddies are risking their lives to do their duty and aid democracy. They'd do the same in Sudan or anywhere else if they were sent there. Give them a break, Guest!
He believes in what he's doing and you don't, so what? In a tranportation outfit, they're sitting ducks for mines, bombs, and RPGs and won't even be shooting unless they're shot at. Too bad there are so many people ready to "abuse" him, but that's the world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:53 AM

I won't give them a break. I won't give an inch to this sort of shit in the forum. A polite agreement was made quite some time ago that prayer request threads wouldn't be posted here. They keep slithering back in, and this one is truly offensive to me. Deeply offensive.

Those troops made a choice that put them where they are now. I am 100% morally opposed to the choice they made, and to the perverted mission they are on, and the policy choices by the US government that put them there.

Shut up? Like hell I will. This is a pro-imperialist propaganda email, being passed off as a request for prayers. It is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:55 AM

Anyway, who's God's listening?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM

That would be the American God, Guest 10:55. The only God brand that matters right now because it is the religious brand with the most weaponry and money.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM

A polite agreement was made quite some time ago that prayer request threads wouldn't be posted here.

That's factually incorrect. A trend developed such as is described, but Mudcat is not the kind of place where agreements actually happen. It's all quite a lot looser than that.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:41 PM

Then those of us who find the prayer threads in general, and prayer threads for imperial militarists in particular abhorrent, should have absolutely no compunctions about ruining the prayer threads whenever possible, in that case.

If you prayer thread worshippers are going to be this "in our faces" about this, then you will get as good as you give, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:43 PM

Actually abusive guest it does say Iraqi right up in the title bar where it ran out of space. Pray or not pray to any gods, supreme beings, goddesses, etc. that you are in contact with. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM

No I won't. I would like to see this Bush doctrine mission fail. So why would I pray that it succeed, knowing especially that if it does succeed, it will have been at the expense of the Iraqi people, especially Iraqi women and children?

That isn't very Christian, now is it? Unless of course, you are one of those rip the child in half sorts of Christians...

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:52 PM

I'm not at all sure that the officer who wrote the request was Christian. I took most of the religious content out. And no, I would assume you would not have any compunction about doing far more than trying to ruin a thread. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST,My GOD! What Nonsense
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM

"Your prayer support and God's intervention are needed to give democracy a chance in this war torn country"

Can someone please tell me why prayer and god's intervention would work better NOW instead of BEFORE the WAR before people were slaughtered? Does god have to see killing or misery before "he" thinks it is worth being bothered to kick in the prayer thing?

Why can't people who pray see how ridiculous this nonsensical approach is? If prayer works so well WHY do you need a request through mere mortal humans? "he" the almighty, all knowing, would already know, right? MY GOD!

No disrespect meant to you mg. We all would do much better voting than praying.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:43 PM

And learning to distinguish prayer from propaganda...

mary garvey said:

"I'm not at all sure that the officer who wrote the request was Christian. I took most of the religious content out."

You must really think we are idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: LilyFestre
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM

So....would ya'll have your panties in a wad if the thread title ran, "Think Good Thoughts For All People?" *shaking my head* Pathetic.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:58 PM

I agree Michelle. Trying to pass off militarist propaganda as prayer is about as pathetic as it gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST,I pray that you don't take offense to:
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

Good thoughts or sending healing waves or energies or whatever is still nonsense. Wishes, prayers, good thoughts, etc. don't work. Decent, honest, ethical Hard Work does work. The "work" (destruction)in Iraqi is based on religious nonsense, based on idiocy.

By "shaking your head" Michelle maybe you can "shake it hard enough to shake some sense into it"

Did my prayer work?

No personal disrespect meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:50 PM

Funny that Mudcat is no longer a bastion for free speech-- censor prayer requests by threat. LOL!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:01 PM

No one is censoring anything here, because we don't have the power to censor threads. So your attempt to use such a loaded word--censor--to inflame the situation just reflects poorly on you.

Having a spirited discussion where people disagree is not censorship by threat. That is just plain idiotic. Of course, not surprisingly here in Mudcat, such tactics (ie accusing the people who are disagreeing with you of censorship by initimidation) are obviously the preferred tactic of last resort--what you pull out of your limited bag of tricks to try and derail the discussion by making grand inflammatory statements like you just did Susan, when it is clear you can't win people to your side through reasoned discussion.

It is clear we aren't all in agreement that the original post has anything to do with praying, for starters. I said it is military propaganda, all wrapped up in God, the family, the flag, and the mission and labelled "prayer" by the sender. Who likely is a stateside chicken hawk right wing propagandist to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST,bemused
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:06 PM

well why not..

if the religiously devout constantly resort to intimidation
and threats of violence
to silence the rights freedom of expression
of playwrites and artists that offend their religious sensitivities

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:15 PM

Because then, Guest bemused, we've thrown our intellects out the window along with our integrity, just to stoop to the religionists' level to try and beat them at their own game.

Thanks, but instead of trying to win through intimidation, which is what the military hawks and the Christian right are doing, I prefer using what little native intelligence I possess to try and influence peoples' thinking through my natural powers of persuasion instead. Granted, it isn't as successful a way of influencing others as the fear mongering tactics used by the right, but I can easily live with that.

In my experience, it is those religionists who believe more than they think, who are usually the ones most intimidated by the use of intellect and the powers of intellectual persuasion. In knee jerk reactionary fashion, they nearly always reach immediately for their preferred measure of last resort first, and try and dominate the conversations they know they will lose, because they are conversations using intellect and knowledge, rather than superstition and belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM

Corect bemused, and now, in England they are defacing advertising posters they don't like women seeing near their mosques.Having given in to the sikh demonstration, the whirlwind approaches!

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:22 PM

Stateside yes, chicken hawk no, right wing no, propagandist no. one out of four not bad abusive guest. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM

You forgot to add "in my opinion" mary. And frankly, I find that your contributions to Mudcat fall in the right wing religious propaganda category with great frequency. So pardon me if I choose not to take your opinion as fact or truth, especially when you openly admitted you had edited out the majority of the religious content from your original post.

Anyone who would author the 'email' in your original post falls in the categories I mentioned, whether you deny it or not. It is plain as day, and any reasonable, thinking person (as opposed to true believers like mary garvey and WYSIWYG) can see the biases present in that post for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:31 PM

Mary Garvey,

I do sent out the best wishes for all of our young people who were forced into this war. I pray they will come home now.
Iraq was a misjudgement at best and a crime at worst.
I am saddened by the continued subjection of our young men and women to this cruel pursuit which will unfortunately not end in democracy for Iraq. You can't force elections on a country that has no history of democracy and it will never be done through military occupation. The argument by some politicians is that if the US were to leave now, there would be chaos. The problem is that there is more chaos there now than there was during the reign of the vicous Saddam.

I sincerely hope that those who are close to you over there are and will continue to be safe and sound.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 03:41 PM

The smart kids enlisting nowadays are enlisting in fields/service branches where they know they won't see "war on terror" combat.

That said, I have 5 members of family & friends' families who are currently serving in Iraq and Kuwait. Having friends and loved ones in the military isn't an exclusive province for right wing hawks. There are many people opposed to US militarism, imperialism, and the war on terror who also know/have people in the military.

I disagree with every person I know who chose to go into the military, and have never had any qualms about telling them and their families that, to their faces, at the dinner table. I refuse to kowtow to the right wing's claim that those who are related to/friends with those who serve in the military, must be aligned with the right's political and religious nationalist agenda.

Last time I checked, we still have that right and freedom in the US to speak to and about those in the military critically, without resorting to below the belt punches. Loving and respecting and supporting other people, doesn't mean having to love and respect and support all of their decisions, especially if they choose to join the volunteer military.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

Guest, I have not endorsed the prayer request or opening post.

"Free speech, free speech-- WE WANT FREE SPEECH-- but don't talk about THAT!!!!"

mg as a hawk, now that would be funny-- if it didn't so completely subvert any rational understanding of her life experience.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:34 PM

Except mary garvey doesn't need you to speak for her, does she?

You are free to discuss free speech in this thread, Susan. What would you like to discuss about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:23 PM

Free speech ain't the "THAT" I'm referring to, and I don't need a anyone's permission to discuss it, or free speech, or anything else, either.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:33 PM

I will pray for the well-being of any person in a combat/war zone, anytime, anywhere, because there but for fortune . . . . If my prayers can help this guy, I'll do that. I will also pray for the dead on both sides of that war--and maybe in the dark recess of my heart hope that the Bush crew rot in Hell right beside trash like Hussein. Message me, Mary, and let me know what I can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:06 PM

Too bad you can't find it in your heart to pray for the living Iraqis there, brucie. Just the dead ones, eh? As in the only good Iraqi is...? Tsk, tsk.

Did you miss the part where mary garvey said that "this guy" (ie the composer of the email quoted in the original post) is stateside? Not in a combat zone? Oh, that escaped you too brucie?

And you an English teacher. I'd think you could read through a piece of prose like this propaganda a bit more critically than that.

Or do you always just check your brain at the door when an emotional appeal like this is made?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM

You likely know best, GUEST, but you have no guts. You post under the GUEST label, and subsequently carry little weight with me. I don't wish to be rude, but you are not the arbiter of my moral conscience. You have no idea whether or not I pray for the living as well as the dead. In fact, I do. I think on the worst day of my life I have more conscience than you, because you spout your rhetoric and do not have the fortitude or courage to sign it with your name. Now, get lost, chickenshit..

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:51 PM

BTW Guest, how's the coast?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:56 PM

Who is the cowardly Guest?

Good chance it is one of the real doper left wing radicals pseudo intellectuals who post are under their regular name every day.

Even money says it is.

I am just so glad that you are offended by Mary Garvey's post.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:09 PM

Pray on this and pass the ammunition to yer Xtian homeys.

And like the man in the email up top said "Stand firm in your battles" and keep plowing the gospel according to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:23 PM

"And you an English teacher. I'd think you could read through a piece of prose like this propaganda a bit more critically than that."

Well, I can read through your BS very easily. You are a repressed individual who cares for your ideals more than you care for people. You are condescending in behaviour and attitude, and likely your demeanor has left you with few friends. You likely think lots of how smart you are--in fact, you're not. Little boy, run off and try someone else's buttons. You are making a fool out of yourself on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:35 PM

Well, I'm all about supporting the troops, so here are the organizations and HARD WORK I'm supporting:

Military Families Speak Out

Bring Them Home Now

and the venerable Veterans for Peace.

So instead of praying for victory in the "battle against Iraqis" which is what the email at the top of this thread is asking you to do, why not do something that will both support our troops, while saving the Iraqi people from them at the same time?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:44 PM

So offended nameless guest. You saw the title of this thread and you opened it up anyway...

So let me guess. When you go to a party and folks are having a conversation you don't approve of - you stop everyone from talking ? Or do you just move on to the next room ?

When you walk by a church having a service do you bust in and starting yelling - "It doesn't work - you need to vote instead of pray" "Stop all of this nonsense" Or do you just walk by ?

You chose to open this thread. You could have just moved on and opened another one instead. Or started one of your own. But now we're all supposed to play by your rules ? You're how old ?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: LilyFestre
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:01 PM

I don't really care what anyone thinks...I will pray when I want, for who I want and I don't care what political bullshit that you "think" I or my prayers represent because frankly, that couldn't be further from my mind.

Enough from me on this thread, I've said my peace.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:24 PM

Sleepless Dad, trying to equate having a spirited conversation about a highly controversial subject in an internet chat forum, with your bizarre fantasy of walking into a church and screaming at the churchgoers is your knee jerk reaction, not mine.

At a party, if this subject came up in the conversation, I'd pull up a chair, sit down with the people talking, and leap right in.

Something wrong with that?

What I am about here, is pointing out that there is a big difference between supporting the troops by trying to get them the hell out of the bloodbath our government created and bring them home, and supporting the troops by praying they'll be victorious in the next battle in the bloodbath, in this case the Iraqi elections.

I am neither pacifist or militarist. I am a reasonable person who hates the American military establishment, and wishes my government would get out of the war business and into the human development business. I'd much rather see the troops deployed to aid tsunami victims, than "liberating" the hell out of countries our president deems "evil" by bombing them back to the Stone Age. I hate what that sort of thing does to the people being bombed AND to the people doing the bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:25 PM

Or as Dougie MacLean put it so eloquently:

"The blood will run to everyone
Oh, what have we done"

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:31 PM

WAR
Song by Dougie MacLean

Our voice made silent
our hands made still
but deep and violent wait the ones who
wait to kill
the desert's burning, their reasons pale
for there's no returning
with some golden holy grail

What have they done?
what have they done?
the blood will run to everyone
oh, what have they done?

Is it for freedom? or is it for truth
that father's fall and all those young
men trade their youth?
or are they moved by deception's hand
that rank and reckless scatters death
across the sand

What have they done?
what have they done?
the blood will run to everyone
oh, what have they done?

Is it for freedom? or is it for truth
that fathers fall and all those young
men trade their youth?
and the desert's burning, their faces pale
for there's no returning
with some golden holy grail

What have they done?
what have they done?
the blood will run to everyone
oh, what have they done?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM

Well gol danged, if this ain't a can o' worms...

Hey, I don't think God takes sided in these things. Might of fact, I thinik war really pisses Him off...

with that said...

"Lord, please be with all the folks in harms way, their families and friends and speak loudly to those who would choose to use war for political and personal gains that they might hear Your voice and change their actions more in line of what You would have them do. I pray that You will fill the hearts of man with the possiblity that thru love for one another we may break the vicious and Satanic cycle of violence toward each other. Speak loudly, Lord, that those in power may hear Your voice saying "Stop".. Oh, loving Lord, speak loudly, speak loudly. In the name of Jesus Christ, my savior. Amen"

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:50 PM

Thanks Bobert. I got no qualms with Christian doves, but I have a whole lot of trouble swallowing the God line of the Christian hawks.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:08 PM

no abusive guest I said I was stateside not the chaplain who wrote the piece who was about to go into very dangerous territory bringing the tangible proof and agency of freedom to the Iraqi people. Who very likely will be sacrificing his, but it could be her as many women of the Transportation Corps have died doing similar work..for people they do not know, who may or may not appreciate them. If you don't like the idea of freedom for others, it also translates directly into tangibles such as food, water, electricity etc. Surely you don't mind if they have that. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:19 PM

abusive guest you and I read this email differently. I thought in my haste to deseminate it I might have glanced over a part where it talks about victory in the battle against Iraqis. Once again, he is a chaplain with a Transportation Battalion. He is not asking for victory as far as I can tell. He is asking that his troops deliver the voting machinery safely. He talks about insurgents, who may or may not be Iraqis. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:22 PM

The "tangible proof and agency of freedom?" Good God, don't make me laugh.

And wait just one NY minute there mary garvey--we are told day in and day out that these folks of ours in Iraq are doing what they are doing for AMERICAN freedom, not Iraqi freedom. So let's just get that one straight too while we're at it.

And I would absolutely love it if the Iraqis didn't need the American military to deliver their food, water, petrol, elctricity, etc etc to them. In fact, I'd really like to see the American military get the hell out of Iraq so the Iraqis can provide those things for themselves, just like they were doing before we invaded and occupied their country and set off a fire storm of insurgent violence in the process.

Can't imagine WHY the Iraqis don't appreciate all our troops are trying to do for them. Those lousy, ungrateful bastards. How dare they shoot at our convoys?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:39 PM

"Something wrong with that?"

Not at all. But I bet you'd be a helluva lot more polite than you are here. Your arguments are good ones, and I agree with many of them. Your attitude however sucks. Your personal attack on me was uncalled for. Basically, you are a chickenshit who is afraid to use his name and yet wants to be heard and respected for his views. Get real.

Many of the people you have antagonized agree with your position about the wrongness of the war. Not that it would matter to you--I am one of them. However, you come across as a snotty and irate kid with severe anger-management problems. Too bad, because you made not a single convert to your position with anything you wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:45 PM

Give me a break brucie. We are all adults here. I haven't stooped to your usual belligerent and anti-social tactics, now have I?

You can't be against the war while simultaneously praying for victory in the military mission, brucie. It don't work like that. So when I see people doing that, just so they can leap on the 'support the troops' lemming bandwagon so as not to branded with the 'against the troops' mark, I call 'em out on it.

Don't like the way I call people out for their pro-Iraq war stances? Tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:50 PM

I don't like that you do so without saying who you are. Go pound yer pud kid, you'll get more out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:53 PM

"I haven't stooped to your usual belligerent and anti-social tactics, now have I?"

Interesting also that you say this. I have stopped doing that for the past while. You haven't, it seems.

Have a nice day, GUEST. Remember yer pud. It needs you mare than this thread does.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 10:54 PM

you know what abusive guest? There is one freedom and it is not American freedom and it is not Cambodian freedom and it is not Iranian freedom. It is just freedom. Like there is not American air and Iraqi air. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:12 PM

Wrong. There is American freedom, and for Iraqis, it's coming to a city near them at gunpoint. Those our OUR TROOPS holding the guns to the heads of the Iraqis, and ordering them to VOTE NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:19 PM

brucie, I'm a shameless agitator. That ruffles feathers. I really don't care about that, because I know what I do isn't abusive in the least. Provocative? Yes. Abusive? No.

At least I've figured out that even if you're on the right track, you'll still get run over if you just sit there praying. You, apparently, need some work in that area.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:20 PM

Guest,

"OUR TROOPS holding the guns to the heads of the Iraqis, and ordering them to VOTE NOW! "

Hardly. OUR troops are providing a ( relatively)safe place for the Iraqis to vote for whoever they want- it is the insurgents who are blowing up US troops and Iraqi civilians to keep them from voting at all. Is that who you are supporting?

The fastest way to get the US troops OUT is fro a real election to be held, and then get politely asked to leave. But of course, you have no interest in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:31 PM

Well, we'll see very soon just how exactly these elections will result in ending the US occupation of Iraq. According to your scenario, we should be expecting our troops home real soon, mission accomplished.

And beardedbruce, don't try that lame ass smear tactic of "if you don't support the troops, you support the terrorists" crap with me. Homey don't play dat tune.

BTW, I especially enjoyed your suggestion that the American troops are providing Iraqis a "relatively safe place" to vote.

Really? Where? In Nashville?

We are the ones imposing this election upon Iraqis who don't really want an election right now, thank you very much. And it is our troops' presence which is fueling the INDIGENOUS, LOCAL INSURGENCY FIGHTING THE AMERICAN OCCUPATION. That isn't Iraqis fomenting the insurgency, it is the occupiers--us. Not them.

But we'll see how true the Bush doctrine rhetoric rings in a couple of weeks, now won't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:33 PM

iF YOU OBJECT TO HAVING THE ELECTION, WHO SHOULD i THINK THAT YOU SUPPORT?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:39 PM

Sorry about the caps lock.


"INDIGENOUS, LOCAL INSURGENCY FIGHTING THE AMERICAN OCCUPATION. "

So THEY don't want to have an election and get rid of us? Sounds like YOU have a limited understanding of cause and effect- IF we leave, they would get what YOU say they want- so WHY are they keeping us there?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:41 PM

It isn't a question of whom I support, beardedbruce. It is a matter of not supporting the mission AT ALL. Not the invasion of Iraq, not the occupation of Iraq, and not the sham we are passing off as a free and fair democratic election, at the expense of the Iraqi people caught in the cross-fire of a civil war started by our invasion and occupation.

That's right, civil war. Just like the Pentagon and White House planned. As long as Bush and his cronies are in power, we WON'T be gettin' outta Iraq. And you can take that to yer local Bush Branch of Citibank nearest you.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:46 PM

But of course, when US troops do pull out, by the request of the Iraqis, and the UN fails to provide any "peacekeeping " troops, you will blame the US for us NOT being there...

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:51 PM

The entire world already blames the US for the tragedy that is now Iraq. We don't have to wait for the US troops to pull out to see the horror--we've already succeeding in creating and sustaining the horror there.

But keep your head down in the sand there, beardedbruce, and keep on believing all the right wing propaganda you hear on cable news, talk radio, the right wing internet sites, etc. and everything will be JUST FINE. Bush is here for 4 more years, and the god damn American military is patrolling the planet and saving the day for American freedom and liberty.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:55 PM

So, from your point of god-like wisdom, what would you have the US do, NOW, in the present situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:04 AM

beardedbruce, it isn't what I think should happen now that matters, it is what the Iraqis think should happen that matters.

And according to The (UK) Times Online today:

January 23, 2005

Go home Yanks, says PM in waiting
Hala Jaber, Baghdad

THE Shi'ite Muslim cleric tipped to become prime minister after next Sunday's election in Iraq has said it will be the duty of the new government to demand the withdrawal of American forces "as soon as possible".

"No people in the world accepts occupation and nor do we accept the continuation of American troops in Iraq," said Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

"We regard these forces to have committed many mistakes in the handling of various issues, the first and foremost being that of security, which in turn has contributed to the massacres, crimes and calamities that have taken place in Iraq against the Iraqis."

In comments certain to raise eyebrows in the United States, al-Hakim spoke of a role for Iran and Syria — both regarded in Washington as enemies in the war on terror — along with Iraq's other neighbours, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait, in the security of the country. "

And he is the guy most likely to be the next Prime Minister of Iraq, beardedbruce. And it don't sound like he will be asking the American troops to leave politely.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:07 AM

But that's only if we put guns to their heads to make them vote for him. Weird, man. Kinda far out. Ironical, like.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:07 AM

So, he kicks us out and we leave- WHAT PART OF THE ELECTION do you have a problem with?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:14 AM

I think we should, like, order our soldiers to shoot THEMSELVES in the head before the elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:17 AM

Thank you for your admitting that you are an idiot. I will NOT presume that you represent any other liberal or left-wing viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:18 AM

All parts of the election. But especially the part of the elections where everybody gets blown up, and nobody gets to cast a legitimate ballot.

And for all those of you praying for the American troops and the Iraq mission, let me ask you this: WWJT?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:19 AM

Guest - I think you may be wrong on that last point (of course its all speculation at this point) but Abdul Aziz al-Hakim is more likely to form an alliance with Iran. Thats what Bush fears most. Thats why Bush wants civil war and that will be his excuse for leaving troops in Iraq. He knows that if Iraq and Iran form an alliance, all American interests in the region are toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:25 AM

I was speaking tongue in cheek, dianavan. Bush doesn't fear civil war in Iraq, he is fomenting it. Not only is it now the publicly stated intention of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim to form an alliance with Iran, but also the countries mentioned in today's Times article I quote from above.

In other words, he is talking about forming a regional security coalition of Muslim countries to replace the American and British troops, and keep the UN out. A regional coalition of Muslim countries would be a tremendous threat to the region and the world. But then, Bush doesn't mind that. It just gives him another excuse to invade and occupy the entire region.

Which will take a draft, of course, but that's OK. We can all just kneel down and pray our kids won't have low numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:27 AM

So, he kicks us out and we leave- WHAT PART OF THE ELECTION do you have a problem with?

Would you care to give a real answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:32 AM

I gave my real answer. I'm opposed to every aspect of this sham the Bush administration keeps calling an election. It isn't going to be an election. Hell, the candidates aren't even allowing their names to be released in advance, for fear of being assassinated. For good reason. A good number of them have been already.

There is no way that anyone can justify the level of violence this push for the American controlled election is causing the Iraqi people. No justification for it whatsoever. The elections never should have been held so soon. The security situation should never have deteriorated like this. We never should have invaded Iraq.

It is all a bloody, horrific mess of the Bush/Blair administrations' making. They are knee deep in the blood and gore of their inhumane, imperialist policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:34 AM

"At least I've figured out that even if you're on the right track, you'll still get run over if you just sit there praying. You, apparently, need some work in that area."

As I said earlier, you know NOTHING about me. And by the looks of it you never will. Best for you to keep it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:36 AM

So, what you are saying is that you want the US troops to maintain military control of the country for the indefinite future.

We CAN'T leave until a civilian government is in place, according to the UN.


I have already stated in other threads that the blood is on the hands of those who encouraged Saddam NOT to comply with the UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:46 AM

Saddam was a puppet of the U.S. and the Saudis. When he decided not to play ball anymore, the U.S. invaded.

So who do you think encouraged Saddam NOT to comply with UN regulations?

The blood of the Iraqis is on the hands of those that blindly follow a leader who decides to go it alone internationally. You're just lucky its not your blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:52 AM

beardedbruce, I said nothing of the sort. You are merely trying to "attribute" words to me I never said, while desperately trying to play the right wing spin game.

But you know what? You make a shitty Hannity.

US TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ NOW.

That's what I said. And I'll stick to that story, no matter what bullshit you come up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:54 AM

The French , the Germans, and the Russians, who were making millions off violating the sanctions, and those of you out there protesting US action without asking Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions defining what he had agreed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:55 AM

And beardedbrucie, did you forget that the US doesn't comply with UN resolutions either? So should France, Germany, Russia, and China form a coalition and invade us because of our UN violations?

And hell, NOBODY is worse with the UN violations than Israel fer chrissake. So I think France, Germany, Russia and China should invade and liberate Israel too while they are at it.

Freedom and liberty--it's the dinner being shoved down the world's throat by Bush & Co.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:00 AM

Guest,

US troops out? In violation of UN rulings? You are being inconsistant.


Do you have any comprehension of what a "cease-fire" is?

In 12 years, Saddam did not comply with HOW MANY resolutions that would have ended the war? There was NO peace treaty from the Kuwait invasion- we were STILL at war.

I have been through this before- but it seems that there is no desire to have a reasonable discussion of the facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:06 AM

Anyway, the prayer request: Message me, OK, Mary?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:07 AM

US OUT OF IRAQ NOW.

Which part of that unequivocal statement do you not get, beardedbruce?

As to you invoking the UN, don't make me laugh. You are as anti-UN as the right wing nuts come. But when you and your Bushie boy get cornered, like you are on Iraq, you invoke the name of the UN all over the place, like it will somehow buy you time or an escape clause from having fucked up Iraq real bad.

Sorry beardedbruce, but Homey don't play dat tune either.

You were a cheerleader for this war, and now you too are knee deep in the blood of dead and disabled Americans and Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:09 AM

As in culpable, beardedbruce. And I mean that from the very bottom of my heart. YOU are personally culpable in each and every death and and disability that has resulted from this obscene invasion and occupation. Every single one.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:12 AM

Ah, let me get EVERYONE ticked:

Lord,

I pray you put an end to war, to killing and the slaughter of innocent people. I pray for both the quick and the dead regardless of the political or religious beliefs; sex or ethnicity; regardless of their physical or mental construct. I pray too for the people who have posted to this thread with malice in their hearts, myself included. I pray for the fortitude to hold love in my heart for my enemy, and that you'll help me find forgiveness for those who have wronged me as ardently as I hope they'll find forgiveness for me and my transgressions.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:12 AM

You don't want an election, so we can be told to leave. You don't want us to stay, but ignore the UN rulings that we are the Occupying Power, and have responsibilities. You fail to answer my questions, and make personal insults instead of discussing the facts. You hide behind "guest" like a coward, and you have shown you have no understanding of much of anything.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:17 AM

brucie, that prayer is a fine act of passive aggression if I've ever seen one. Congratulations on the lovely way you built the nasty right into your prayerful prose. Your genuineness and sincerety just warms me through and through.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:19 AM

Yeah beardedbruce, like is real tough when those who disagree with your opinion refuse to dance to your tune, ain't it?

Like I said about Homey...

Deal with it, and have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:21 AM

Thank you for your kind words, GUEST. Have a restful evening. Seems you'll never recognize peace because you appear not to know what it is. I don't hate you GUEST. I'd like to, but I don't. My problem is that I don't like you, either. There just ain't all that much to like. I hope we meet in better times when you have a name and we can talk instead of argue. Night, pal.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:48 AM

I have no problem recognizing peace when an olive branch is genuinely being offered, brucie. But that isn't what your little passive aggressive prayer was about at all, and we both know that, now don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:58 AM

No sir, we do not. Only you do. You want peace, you got it. Who are you? Here's my hand. Now, where's yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 02:29 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:14 AM

brucie, it's just a trolling thread. Don't let it get your goat. These troll threads just use up energy better devoted to something else!

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:33 AM

Yeah, there are trolls on the thread, but I'm still gonna send an e-mail. If it was me there, I'd like to know someone cared. I don't like this war, but then no one's asking me. (And you be careful what you say about my goat.)

Subject: RE: BS: Prayer request for Iraq troops and Iraqi
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM

No. It is not a trolling thread. It is a legitimate effort to get the information out and pass on requests for prayers from those so inclined from an Army Chaplain about to put his life right on the line. There is nothing trolling whatsoever about this. I have the man's email and mailing address, but am not stupid enough to put it up in a place with as much animosity and hatred as here for obvious reasons. But there are also decent people who would either just ignore the request is they are not inclined to pray or are conflicted about who to pray for etc. Pray for them all and hope for the best outcome for them all. Or don't, whatever your preference. mg