Icons of Englishness?

Subject: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:51 AM

These are HMG's designated Icons of Englishness.
Stonehenge
The Angel Of The North
SS Empire Windrush
Holbein's portrait of Henry VIII
A cup of Tea
Alice In Wonderland
The "Routemaster" Bus
The King James Bible
The Spitfire
"Jerusalem" (Hymn)
Obviously Stonehenge predates the arrival of Angles or Celts into Britain by a very long time.
Aside from that,Errors? Omissions?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: dozy rozy
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:52 AM

queues.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:59 AM

I don't think the Angel has been around long enough to be 'iconic'. 'Iconic' suggests that it has a special place in the national psyche.

I think Big Ben would count, although it was named after a man whose seat was in Wales (and whose wife was responsible for much of what is considered iconically Welsh).

Puffins maybe?
Roses?
Lavendar?
Crumpets? or Hovis?

siân

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:59 AM

From the Yorkshire Post, 9/03/2006 Thornborough Henges in North Yorkshire have replaced foxhunting as an icon of Englishness.

eric

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:03 AM

Devonshire Cream...Yorkshire Puddings.....Lancashire hotpot.....Lands End......Tower of London...Houses of Parliament.....White Cliffs of Dover......could go on a bit..........

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:10 AM

Wot no jellied eels?
and was Chad English?
Prefabs
The Goons
Carry On Movies
Petticoat Lane
Noel Coward
The Seaside
A stick of Rock
Fish & Chips
Pork Pies

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: jonm
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:19 AM

Morris dancing?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:28 AM

How about snobbishness and class distinction?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:28 AM

Wot no beer? No pub? No old maids cycling to communion across the cricket square? Changing the Guard at Fuckingham Phallus? Keep Left signs? Robin Hood?

Interesting that they've included the classic product of paedophilia in the canon. I thought Paedophilia was the state capital Pennsylvania...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:35 AM

Fox hunting
lamping
Hare coursing
smoking
Risk assessments

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:40 AM

Cricket
Vera Lynn
Bangers and Mash(no Minestrone)
Fair Play
Losing

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:41 AM

Bert is doing what most English do, confusing British and English. The Goons had an Irishman (Spike Milligan), a Weshman (Harry Secombe), an Englishman (Peter Sellers) and that chap from Peru, Michael Bentine. The Carry on Films were also British. Will they ever learn?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:45 AM

Spike Milligan was born in India.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:59 AM

Michael Bentine was born in Watford.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:25 AM

Scotch bastards were born in scumland - so what!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM

Omission:The F.A.Cup is also on the official list,though it is not clear whether they mean the Trophy or the Competition.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:47 AM

I don;t see how the SS Empire Windrush fits into the English icon group. Maybe into the British as representative of the open arms of the nation (hah!)?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:56 AM

I think that our dicks should be included.
Spotted dicks deserve a special mention.
Oozing with custard of course.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:02 AM

Bird's Eye...or should we avoid that at all cost!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:03 AM

White Cliffs of Dover
Fish and Chips
Toby Jugs
Morris Dancing
Fox Hunting
St Pauls Cathedral
Cross of St George
Pint of Bitter
Red Telephone Boxes (sadly now gone)
Black Cabs
Cobbled Streets
Red Pillar Boxes
The Lark Ascending

Yes I know a few of these apply equally to Britain as a whole, but I'm sure you get my drift

Cheers
LL

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:11 AM

saying "Sorry!"
Penguin paperbacks
Being blown up and not retaliating
allowing the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish a dissproportionate amount of taxes raised in England

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:17 AM

LL:We've got a couple of Red Telephone Boxes over here in France.The real thing!Theres one in a Café Bar in Berlin too.Seems to be quite a few arround.

Cheers
David

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:58 AM

Marmite
Manners

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:58 AM

" When you have lost your inns, drown your empty selves, for you will have lost the last of England " Hilaire Belloc.


eric

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:08 AM

Philip Larkin
Jake Thackray
world cup winning team 1966
Judi Dench
Humphrey Lyttleton
Mornington Crescent
Tony Hancock

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:09 AM

Guest 5:25 am, was that really called for?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:23 AM

not retaliating....tell that to the folk of Dresden!
cobblers...you don't see a lot of those little cobblers shops that had that cobbler sort of smell inside. as we all stopped wearing those sort of shoes and started wearing trainers..............I don't suppose we revered cobblers as much as all that. otherwise they'd still be there.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:31 AM

A tendency to rather enjoy it when things go wrong. I mean the way people on trains seem to get much more cheerful when there's been a breakdown. There should be a word for that but I can't think of it.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM

Chicken Tikka Massala !

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM

My wife who is Dutch came up with the following

Carpets in the toilets and kitchens. (Yuk)

Peas with every meal (very unimaginative)

Poor standard of hygiene in pub toilets.

Carpets in Pubs for everybody to spill their drinks over and drop their fags on. Yuk

Having said all that, she likes England very much. :-)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:49 AM

sangfroid

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:52 AM

Guest 5:25 a. m. evidently himself a member of an iconic species
i.e. Iobbus anglicae, the English Yobbo.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 07:55 AM

English Muffins?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:03 AM

Muffin the mule!!!!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:14 AM

the Times crossword
mild ale
strawberries and cream
the metaphysical poets
ham and pease pudden stotty cakes

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:17 AM

Ah! weelittledrummer, what memories you bring back to me. I used to be a cobbler (as I was born in Northamptonshire I always will be) and still love the smell of leather and wax but, funnily enough, not the sinus clearing effect of hot, horse piddle soaked jodphur boots.

The other thing I miss is a proper hardware shop that smells of more than plastic shrink wrap. That sells galvanised buckets and nails by the pound and not the metric dozen.

Fish and chips (cooked in dripping not oil)
Showers
Extended showers
Light rain
Heavy rain
Pissing down for a week type rain

I can almost hear Julie Andrews...... "...a few of my favourite things".

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 09:14 AM

The unstoppable destruction, degradation and over-development of English landscapes and townscapes?

A land firmly in the grip of property developers?

Knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,MikeofNorthumbria (off base)
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 10:05 AM

Toasted crumpets smothered in butter and marmalade, and washed down with Earl Grey tea. The perfect way to start a lazy Saturday morning.

And what would Saturday nights be without Greene King's Abbot, Shepherd Neame's Spitfire, Fuller's London Pride, Hook Norton's Old Hookey, Timothy Taylor's Ram Tam, Jenning's Sneck Lifter..etc, etc ...?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 10:33 AM

The Oxford & Cambridge Boatrace-Used to row meself once.
Watching England getting trounced by Oz in the Test Series.
Watercress sandwiches.
Cheese & Onion crisps.
String vests.
Bowler Hats.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 10:47 AM

Toast and Dripping
Inferiority complex about our fellow Island nations
Birmingham
1000 years under the Norman Yoke
Peter Crouch
Hathersage Blue Stilton
JRR Tolkien
Glastonbury Tor
Richard Thompson

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 10:49 AM

And don't forget our dinosaurian heritage (These from the Isle of Wight alone)

Polacanthus foxii
Neovenator Salierii
Hypsilophodon foxii
Eotyrannus lengi

etc etc

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 11:41 AM

One cannot improve upon the litany inherent in Ian Diry's lyric for his song 'England's Glory' herewith cited:


There are jewels in the crown of England's glory
And every jewel shines a thousand ways

Frankie Howerd, Nol Coward and garden gnomes
Frankie Vaughan, Kenneth Horne, Sherlock Holmes
Monty, Biggles and Old King Cole
In the pink or on the dole
Oliver Twist and Long John Silver
Captain Cook and Nelly Dean
Enid Blyton, Gilbert Harding
Malcolm Sargeant, Graham Greene (Graham Greene)

All the jewels in the crown of England's glory
Too numerous to mention, but a few
And every one could tell a different story
And show old England's glory something new

Nice bit of kipper and Jack the Ripper and Upton Park
Gracie, Cilla, Maxy Miller, Petula Clark
Winkles, Woodbines, Walnut Whips
Vera Lynn and Stafford Cripps
Lady Chatterley, Muffin the Mule
Winston Churchill, Robin Hood
Beatrix Potter, Baden-Powell
Beecham's powders, Yorkshire pud (Yorkshire pud)

With Billy Bunter, Jane Austen
Reg Hampton, George Formby
Billy Fury, Little Titch
Uncle Mac, Mr. Pastry and all
Uncle mac, Mr. Patry and all

allright england?
gwan england
oh england

All the jewels in the crown of England's glory
Too numerous to mention, but a few
And every one could tell a different story
And show old England's glory something new

Somerset Maugham, Top Of The Form with the Boys' Brigade
Mortimer Wheeler, Christine Keeler and the Board of Trade
Henry Cooper, wakey wakey, England's labour
Standard Vanguard, spotted dick, England's workers

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM

First class Folk music writers and performers! Best and most regular Folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 02:00 PM

Yorktown...wait, that was in the colonies.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 02:15 PM

Someone got the weather right, but nobody has mentioned the good old English Brolly (Statesiders, that's umbrella).

Black jackets with pinstripe trousers.

A talent for understatement, and a certain disdain for blowing ones own trumpet. (e.g. "It's nothing really, only a flesh wound, and they can actually re-attach legs these days".)

Don T.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:22 PM

Earl Grey Tea? Surely not. Leave that to Captain Picard.

Real Tea, that's another thing. Especially in a crisis, when life gets too fraught for substitutes such as coffee.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

Guest is forgetting that the English consider that everything British is THEIRS!

Subject: Lyr Add - Captains and the Kings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 03:45 PM

Here are Brendan Behan's thoughts on the subject (from his play The Hostage):

I remember in September, when the final stumps were drawn,
And the shouts of crowds now silent when the boys to tea had gone.
Let us, oh Lord above us, remember simple things,
When all are dead who love us, Oh the Captains and the Kings,
When all are dead who love us, Oh the Captains and the Kings.

We have many goods for export, Christian ethics and old port
But our greatest boast is that the Anglo-Saxon is a sport
When the darts game is finished, and the boys their game of rings
And the drafts and chestful inquests of the captains and the kings
And the drafts and chestful inquests of the captains and the kings

Far away in dear old Cyprus, or in Kenya's dusty land,
Where all bear the White Man's Burden in many a strange land.
As we look across our shoulder, in West Belfast the school bell rings,
And we sigh for dear old England, and the Captains and the Kings.
And we sigh for dear old England, and the Captains and the Kings.

In our dreams we see old Harrow, and we hear the crow's load caw
At the flower show our big marrow takes the price from Evelyn Waugh
Cups of tea and some dry Sherry, vintage cars, these simple things
So let`s drink up and be marry, for the Captains and the Kings
So let`s drink up and be marry, for the Captains and the Kings

As I wandered in a nightmare all around Great Windsor Park,
Now what did you think I found there as I wandered in the dark?
It was an apple half-bitten, and sweetest of all things,
Five baby teeth had written of the Captains and the Kings.
Five baby teeth had written of the Captains and the Kings.

By the moon that shines above us in the misty morning night
Let us cease to run ourselves down and praise God that we are white
And better still are English, tea and toast and muffin rings
And old ladies with stern faces and the captains and the kings
And old ladies with stern faces and the captains and the kings.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:24 AM

The word "bloody" used in swearing/slang.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 01:20 AM

Dad in his jacket and tie with a knotted handkerchief on his head and his trouser legs rolled up to the knees, a cigarette dangling from his lips going in for his yearly paddle on the beach at Butlins.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:20 AM

OK, Seamus, you win. I can just SEE it. My sister used to work at a holiday camp on the Isle of Wight. I went down to visit her one year.

As long as he doesn't find a wooden box and open it up he'll be alright.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:28 AM

For those who didn't get the "English" concept, look up, Lincolnshire Poacer, The Chandler's Wife and The Thing.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:40 AM

Foolestroupe -

Absobloodylutely - it's the way the English play with their own language (and anybody else's).

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 04:45 AM

Jobsworths.
As represented by the pub that threw out an 85 year old woman for wearing a hat, because they have a hat ban to stop hoodies, and the council that traced a man from his junk mail that he threw in a public bin. This apparantly is household waste and thus allowed the council to fine him £50.00
Now that's England!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:04 AM

Thanks McGrath...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:06 AM

"Rain Stopped Play"

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:41 AM

thanks for the Behan.

really enjoyed that. I must read the play again. I didn't remember that poem/song.

Was it a Joan Littlewood production - it has sort of 1950's vibe. I loved that period of British drama. Behan. Wesker, Arden when the actors burst into song.
Some of it was a bit daft and idealistic like when the guys in the RAF NAAFI burst into The Cutty Wren in Chips with Everything - but it's stuff like that makes your heart soar and glad to be English/Irish. Just shows the political differences between the two countries up for the bullshit that it is. We should be friends.

(never mind all this stuff about warm beer and John Major's underpants!)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:54 AM

Shakespeare-Wasn't he English,wrote a couple of plays and stuff!
Never 'eard of him meself.
John Major's underpants!Marks'n'Sparks mate!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 09:22 AM

Flamenco Ted, remember the old saying,'If you're born in a stable it doesn't make you a horse.'

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 10:08 AM

I do indeed, by The Duke of Wellington no less. But what if the mother was a mare?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 10:16 AM

English "national costume" - or lack of.
A smock?
A Beefeater outfit?
Or is it the rolled up trousers and handkerchief with knots in the corners, worn on the head?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM

Authors: H.G. Wells, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, H. Ryder Haggard, Sir Walter Scott, Rudyard Kipling

The "thin red line", the RAF, and the Royal Navy. The Lancaster bomber and the Mosquito and the Hurricane (Spitfire was already mentioned).

Windsor Castle and the Tower of London and Hadrian's Wall.

Fictional Characters: Sherlock Holmes, Doctor Watson, Allan Quatermain, Robin Hood, King Arthur, Lancelot, Galahad, Mordred, Guinevere, Maid Marion, the Lady of the Lake, Merlin.

Rude expressions: "piss off", "sod off", "bugger off", "fecking", "Cor!", Blimey!", "bloody", "sodding", "wanking".

Lovely lot, those Brits are... ;-D

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:19 PM

At least two of those authors and seven of the characters listed weren't English. "Fecking" is an Irish turn of speech. The RAF, Royal Navy and "thin red line" all refer to British military units.

And what's with "Brits" in this context?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: closet-folkie
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

Ian Dury.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 03:34 PM

Roman Roads

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 03:49 PM

It's the outsiders' view of it, McGrath. We don't care about petty little differences between English, Scots, Welsh, and Irish... We see you all as a bunch of sodding Brits, drinking your fecking Earl Grey tea, and exclaiming "Bloody Hell!" when things don't work out as you had planned.

These are icons we're talking about here, mate. Superficial impressions that register on the ill-informed mind by way of mass media and glib stereotypes. If we wanted hard, cold facts, mate, we'd go to the sodding encyclopedia Brittanica for them. ;-D

Oh, the English also say "mate" a lot when they are having a conversation with someone else and they want to give it an air of familiarity. See the example above in paragraph 2.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 03:54 PM

And we don't bleedin' care about Angles, Saxons, Celts, Druids, or Normans either! They're all just Brits to us.

'Ere's another sodding icon: "1066 And All That"

And 'ere's another: Adrian Mole

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:41 PM

WHAT? "They're all just Brits to us"! Brits with a huge tapestry of history behind them...A proud Nation and with enough reason to be.
Brits who have inherited 'Shatner' as an advertiser for breakfast cereal. Brits who exported Joan Collins to the US (thank goodness...they can keep her) Brits who.......perhaps I should stop here.
Best wishes to all. Mike.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM

Little Hawk you seem to be more Brit than the Brits. It's so tiresome being picked up all the time by Scots in particular with their shoulder chips everytime. Many examples in this thread.I think they hover over their keyboards reading every word in order to discover slights and aspersions. Eventually the English will take their ball and leave, and I for one wouldn't blame them.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Desdemona
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 06:27 PM

I already voted for morris dancing!

~D

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:34 PM

Tommy Cooper and Les Dawson.

And Linda Smith of course.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:59 PM

Just imagine all my posts on this thread in the voice of John Cleese, as Basil Fawlty, raving on about something as he browbeats some unfortunate guest in his bed and breakfast....and THEN you will get the full effect. (although, Basil does not drop his aitches...he's too middle class to do that)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 08:11 PM

Stiff upper lip, black umbrella, bowler 'at.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 08:13 PM

Taking the piss.................................

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

John Steed, Emma Peel, and Tara King.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 09:25 PM

PANTOMIME

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: NH Dave
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 10:21 PM

Bowlers and Brollys
Big Ben - even if most of the tourists don't know what it really is.
Tower Bridge
Red Double Decker Buses, Phone boxes, Pillar Boxes - I count us lucky to haveone of both the phone and post boxes in our town over here.
Beefeaters, and for the contrast, a group of Ghurkas standing Guard Mount at Buckingham Palace.
The British Pub
The Highland Regiments
The SAS
Dad's Army, The Territorials
Cricket and Bowls
Shakespear & Stratford-Upon-Avon
Balmoral Castle
Cadburys Y Schwepps
The old wool towns
Narrow roads & Hedgerows
Gardening
Stonehenge
King Arthur and the Roundtable

And the list goes on

Dave

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 10:32 PM

Wot about 'niceness'?

For me thats what makes England English!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:10 AM

Maggie Holland singing 'A Place Called England'

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,rainbow
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:19 AM

free-speech

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:25 AM

I don't think our American cousins have yet forgiven us for introducing Hollywood to REAL acting ability.

That's why they get so grumpy about all things English.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:29 AM

"free-speech!"not anymore there ain't mate!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:54 AM

Flamenco Ted. both Spike Milligans parents were Irish and if you look at somee of these postings you'see that the English confuse totallt English with British. Sad, sad, sad and I for one would kick their ball out of the park.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 05:31 AM

There he goes again!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 06:19 AM

Was that last post an instance of self abuse?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 06:21 AM

Think he's alluding to David's use of the term "Mate" McG.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM

Magna Carta

And it's through that there Magna Charter,
As were made by the Barons of old,
That in England today we can do what we like,
So long as we do what we're told.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:47 AM

Of course - monologues in the tradition of Marriott Edgar.

And the best thing about that is, it's a living tradition, because they are still being written and recited.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 10:51 AM

Simple GUEST..... who was downing Flamenco Ted....WE ENGLISH are British through and through as are the Irish so what is your point...if you have one. Are you just another 'flaming' GUEST?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 12:49 PM

WE ENGLISH are British through and through as are the Irish

That last part is not exactly true. Not even for those who favour maintaining the British connection - after all it's "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", and the term "Brit" when used in Northern Ireland isn't normally understood to include Unionists or Loyalists. Not even when they are the ones using it.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 12:54 PM

Not forgetting, Cromwell, DRs Crippen and Shipman, Jack the Ripper, John Halliday Christie, Bomber Harris, etc.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 01:40 PM

The expression "randy" and the expression "I'll knock you up in the morning", both of which mean something completely different in North America.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM

And there's ard, hunched over his keyboard. He spots the word English and rattles off another pointless poisonous posting.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 02:09 PM

"Smashing!" "Top drawer!" "Simply Ripping!" "Rubbish!"

All of the above are (or at least were) popular English expressions...specially the last one.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Oaklet
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 03:40 PM

Penelope Rutledge, chip-pan fires, wife-beating, British Gas and the apology. Oh, and eating offal. And being measured for shoes.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:25 PM

I cant see how wife beating is particularly an English characteristic! Seems to have been endemic in all patriarchal societies.
However, to this day, having bad teeth is an English characteristic.
Unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Veronica Rutledge
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

Yes, Oaklet! My Aunt Penelope is undoubtedly an icon of Englishness! She is the very apotheosis of all that is English, in my opinion. It's very good of you to mention her. She still speaks fondly of you and wonders how you are getting on. Uncle Winston still detests you, but he can be like that about other men, so I shouldn't worry about it.

Rutledge House is also an icon of Englishness, I am told. It's very ancient, built on the foundations of a Roman fort which were built on the foundations of a pre-Roman settlement. Boudicca is said to have once slept here!

Well, TTFN!

* Veronica

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:49 PM

Football thugs, lager louts on weekend bash taking over every town and village, English holiday makers in Spain wearing union jack tee-shirts and shorts, loudmouthed and agressive. and there`s more.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Veronica Rutledge
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:58 PM

Yes, it's perfectly dreadful, isn't it? There was a time when those loutish types would have been impressed into the army and the Royal Navy and sent abroad to kill Frenchmen, Spaniards, and anyone else offering an impediment to the natural spread of British civilization across the globe. Now, alas, things are not quite like that!    Still, I think it unnecessarily negative of you, ard mhacha, to dwell obsessively on only the negatives that our great country has to offer. What have we done to you? Are you one of those fanatical anti-British people that commit violent acts and spread trouble wherever they go? If you are, let me advise you that you will not profit from it. We British may lose a battle here and there, but we always win the last battle.

TTFN!

* Veronica

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Veronica Rutledge
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:59 PM

100! Oh! My first time!!!

* Veronica

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM

Stanley Unwin

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 05:26 PM

Never could abide Stanley Unwin (or Norman Wisdom, come to that).

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 06:12 PM

It was rainbow saying free-speech that made me think of Stanley Unwin.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 06:35 PM

Stan Laurel

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Oaklet
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:04 PM

Unrequited love for haughty bespectacled icons

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: SunnySister
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:10 PM

Looking at the lists above, the three I would add would be Horlicks,
digestive cookies (I'm addicted), and "Bubble and Sqeak."

--Cherio- SunnySister

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:17 PM

My 2 cats - "Bubble and Sqeak"!!!!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Veronica Rutledge
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:17 PM

Oaklet, you know perfectly well that Aunt Penelope does not wear glasses! (I assume you were referring to her.) She's still a young woman! Haughty? Well, yes, but that goes with Rutledge women. I too am haughty, and proud of it! Did you know that I have a new Porsche and that it is striped black and white like a zebra, because I couldn't decide which colour I liked better, black or white, so I said, "Do it in both then! For my birthday! Just like a zebra!" And so they did. It cost my Uncle Winston absolute cartloads of money. I have been driving it up and down the rural roads and showing it off. I blow the horn loudly when approaching blind curves and hidden intersections. Everyone is very impressed, specially the bad-tempered man whose horse panicked and dumped his ale cart in the bog. He's threatening legal action, silly fellow. I had the right of way! I really think it's time that farm vehicles were required to restrict their travels to only specific hours on our roads. I suspect he had been drinking anyway. It was an ale wagon, after all, and he was unshaven and unkempt. Where there's smoke, there's fire, that's what I always say.

Well, TTFN!

* Veronica

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:40 AM

We British Veronica?, I thought this Thread was about Englishmess,

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:52 AM

SunnySister, "cookies" are an American icon. You mean digestive biscuits.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 06:03 AM

For the English of an earlier generation who lived much harder lives there was the wonderful expression "mustn't grumble" which exemplified fortitude in times of difficulty as well as the realisation that it was neither mentally satisfying nor constructive to constantly whine about petty issues. A far cry from some of the young oiks we have to put up with now who have sleepless nights fretting about whether they've got the right label on their overpriced, oversized trouserwear.

Other icons:

Proper cooking apples
Proper beer
Crap restaurant and pub food

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 06:20 AM

DIGESTIVE COOKIES ?    biscuits, you colonials have cookies, we English have biscuits.

eric

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:23 AM

Ad mhach, you're wasting your time ... the majority of the English don't know, or want to know, the difference between England and Britain.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 10:21 AM

I don't usually respond to nameless guests, but the difference between England & Britain is a tacit corrollary of the thread title.
As the son of a Scottish mother I am (like the vast majority of English people) fully aware of the difference & attach importance to it.
As is the case with most Scots,Welsh & Northern Irish People(s).

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 10:41 AM

"Musn't grumble" except at "young oiks". That's a pretty traditional combination. Goes back at least as far as Mr Pooter. (And he's another icon.)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM

...fully aware of the difference & attach importance to it...

Yerse, but the English DON'T. To the English, 'England' is synonymous with 'Britain' along with Canada, Australia, India and all the rest of the long gone Empire. You're all still OUR'S in our hearts.

And SENSIBLE English people also have a soft spot for the other lost colonies who now call themselves the USA. (Especially after all the help in those wars in the last century.)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 01:26 PM

freezing your tits off in this temperate climate

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 01:35 PM

Ovaltine

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM

"...the English DON'T.To the English..." You seem to believe that England is the Spiritual home of consensus Bert.
How many people did you actually consult with before concluding that there was a uniformity of thought share by upwards of 49m people on these issues?
If you insist on reducing an entire Nation to a National stereotype then it strikes me that you don't really have cause for complaint if SOME English People respond in kind.
"Quot homines,tot opiniones."
As they used to say in the City State of which England was an Imperial possession.
Which status it had for longer than it was an Imperial power.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:10 PM

Ye Gods, I thought this thread was supposed to be fun and you're taking it seriously.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:31 PM

Foxx hunting!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:34 PM

David Oakley the true English Gentleman who is also pretty good playing fiddle!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:40 PM

Yes,you're right Bert it is supposed to be fun.
My previous posting was somewhat intemperate. More so than I would have wished.
I do tend to believe in the maxim "All generalisations are dangerous including this one."
I did over-react on this occasion.
Mea Culpa,mea maxima culpa.
BTW My tendency to break into Latin isn't intended to be pretentious but rather is a consequence of living so close to Hadrian's Wall.
To this day in these parts children come home from school,walk into the house & shout Mam am 'ere!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:02 PM

I don't think the English generally do think of all those others Bert listed as "English" - what they tend sometimes to do is use "British" as a synonym for "English" when making generalisations. And they also tend to have a kind of affection for Bert's list, as sort of family, more especially for Australians, perhaps.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:23 PM

fun...in this weather

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:24 PM

What weather, its nice in Market Rasen

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

It's not in North Shields!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

In reply to McGrath of Harlow, I was sneering, as it happens, not grumbling!

I think you're right about Pooter, though. If my memory serves me well, he thought his lad was a bit of an oik.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:26 PM

I've always been fascinated by Hollywood's portrayal of English people - the classic example being Dick Van Dyke as a Cockney chimney sweep in 'Mary Poppins'.

Have any English Mudcatters ever heard an English person use the expression 'donch'ya know?' Americans (at least those connected with films and TV) seem to believe that English people use this expression all the time - and they don't, donch'ya know?!!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:41 PM

That's true, ya know. The "do'nch" would only be used ironically, or possibly as a way of teasing an American.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM

Well, the English used to do comedic parodies of Americans that sounded...ummm...really weird. They sounded sort of like an obnoxious American sports announcer or something like that, any yet...there was something no quite right about it...as if some aliens were trying to imitate Earthlings, but couldn't avoid screwing up some of the inflections.

Hilarious!

I bet the way we do a supposedly "French" accent amuses the French no end, too...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 06:37 PM

Westminster Abbey
The Tower
Big Ben
The rosy red cheeks of the little children....

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 07:05 PM

I think the difference is that those "Amrican" accents would be meant to sound weird, being parodies, whereas the impression is that the Hollywood versions of the English were intended to sound English. That applied even more so to the quite extraordinary "Irish" accents you used to get in the movies. (And of course English or Irish actors in Hollywood movies at one time used to play along with it, and provide accents that they would never have used at home.)

I think these days more effort is to get those kind of things accurate. A pity really, in some ways. It used to add to the fun of moviegoing.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 07:18 PM

Yes indeed. Terry-Thomas, with his bad teeth and dreadfully pompous accent, may have been the quintessential example of Hollywood's expectations of the English.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 07:34 PM

But that was a parody originally developed for home consumption. Taking the piss out of the posh.

I don't think Americans always appreciate how central social class consciousness is to the English. Rather like race is for Americans. (Its class that is really central, especially when it comes to humour. "Race" tends to be relatively peripheral. An English version of "Guess who's coming to dinner" would really need to be about class.)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:00 PM

Yes, that is the difference, all right. It's fascinating, and it provides many opportunities for humour, as evidenced in all those great British comedy shows.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:23 PM

I spent a month in England last year and I'd have to say one icon is the bathroom that was added to the house/hotel/pub/inn/B&B as if they forgot until the last minute and then converted a closet to that function. With only one exception all the bathrooms I experienced, for all functions of those rooms, were inadequate, small and inconvenient.

It's as if the architects all forgot to include a proper bathroom in the original design. In the very old buildings I can understand it but we found the same problem in newer places too.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:53 PM

What is with this American obsession with teeth?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 09:18 PM

well lets put it this way, theres as many English chimney sweeps going round singing a bit like Dick Van Dyke, as there are singing a bit like Martin Carthy.

and a lot more people know the songs from Mary Poppins and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang than are acquainted with the classic works of our great folk revival.

why theres only one word for the man,,,supercalifragilistic etc!

I might write him a song

Dick van Dyke
I really like
in fact he is an icon
he strong and stable, just the chap
for you to lean your bike on

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 09:28 PM

John Bull

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:48 AM

The reason for the late addition of bathrooms to B&B and inn rooms is that until relatively recently guests would be expected to share such facilities. Nowadays en-suite facilities are expected, as are tea and coffee making facilities and a colour TV. Last year we stayed at a cheap commercial hotel in Belgium where the toilet facilities were shared but private showers were provided by plonking down a huge plastic cubicle in the corner of the room with no pretence of seperating it from the room.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:55 AM

Good Lord! And they claim to be "civilized" in the U.K.!   (grin)

Well, I guess they are next to some other places, such as Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Tadzikistan...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:10 AM

To avoid (or maybe cause?) confusion, it should be pointed out that English bathrooms contain a BATH. If there is no bath it is not a bathroom but a shower room (if it contains a shower), or a toilet/WC/lavatory/bog/loo . . .

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:17 AM

Well, I haven't enjoyed my evening bath anywhere near so much since I experienced Japanese bathing. Those people know how to arrange a bathroom. One small room for bodily functions and one larger room for getting clean. They do NOT combine the two facilities in one room. That just isn't sanitary.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:04 AM

why, don't they trust themselves not to shit in the bath?

In England, it's a lot more matey. you can have a chat with someone in the bath, while you're working up to a dump. have a sing song. discuss politics.

if you ask me, they need to leave off the flower arranging and develop a bit more macrobiotic approach to live - integrates poo into their lives, get a grip.....

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:57 AM

Samuel Becket,Gioccometti and an Artist friend of ours,Virgil Nevjestic,used to go to a café in Monparnasse to get rat-arsed.Their favorite table was near the toilet.One of those hole in the ground squat types.The "fun" to be had was in knowing that this toilet,when flushed,would send water everywhere,to about knee high,and seeing the state of the victim's trousers and shoes on imerging.Followed by the arguement at the bar between the victime and the barman!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:24 AM

Westminster Abbey
The Tower
Big Ben

John Bull

These are British Icons which happen to be in England (with the possible exception of the Tower of London which has been hijacked by the British lot), they are not English! Especially not John Soddin' Bull.

The fells of Cumbria, the Dales of Yorkshire and the Peak District, the big skies of East Anglia and the gentle undulations of the South Downs, that's England. Maggie Holland got it right in my opinion.

Whilst we are on the subject, what are our American and overseas catters favourite English accents?

I love the New York accent, but don't care too much for the deep south accent unless it's being sung when it becomes something different.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:46 AM

If Red Bull gives you wings, what does John Bull give you?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:03 AM

"Well, the English used to do comedic parodies of Americans that sounded"

The Goon Show parodied that with a character that said 'hern, ahern, ahern' all the time. I was told that was funny....

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 09:14 AM

Parodying parodies was the kind of thing that the Goons excelled at. And sometimes they'd parody that...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 09:28 AM

"Red Bull gives you wings" is it? I always thought it was "wind".

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:25 PM

Sort of jet propulsion...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:46 PM

It's OK Foxxy. things always sound harsher than expected in print. Ah yes Latin - Amo, Amas, Amattress.

Talking of jet propulsion we should add Frank Whittle to our list.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:23 PM

And Hi to you too Bert.
The English Language.
Brass Bands.
Durham Cathedral.
Philosophers who write sentences that make sense.
Now that it's written & produced in Wales by a Welshman & stars a Scot Doctor Who is disqualified,which is a shame.
The Beatles.
1966 & all that.
But above all else Baldrick.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:38 PM

I have a cunning plan ...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:00 PM

that's amazing David, imagine that
beckett, giacometti, and the other bloke and you think they're talking about the icongraphy of despair, but actually their waiting for the bidet to explode.

that's the difference between us and the foreigners - our sense of humour is subtle and ironic. You wouldn't find Cliff Richard laughing at a another human being covered in shit.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:04 PM

bad guys in American movies...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 05:57 AM

Marmite.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:08 PM

Cricket
The Shipping Forecast
The Archers

Radio 4

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:22 PM

Sailing By
Vivian Stanshall
Mark E Smith
Sir Peter Maxwell Davies
Peter Bellamy
Greggs
Will Hay
Tod Slaughter

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:29 PM

Central plumbing.
Individual heating.
Pallor.
Chips.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:51 PM

Diane Easby ***sez 'e wi' a wee twinkle in 'is eye***

Mick

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:11 PM

If you'll forgive someone from the States putting an oar in here, I have a question that's bothering me.

Paul Burke said, they've included the classic product of paedophilia in the canon.    Okay, I'll bite. What is "the classic product of paedophilia"?   Which of the icons represents this? Please forgive my denseness.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:43 PM

and Sir jOhn from Hull - probably wittiest of all mudcatters. I do hope he is okay.

What is "the classic product of paedophilia"?   

fucked up kids....

sorry. I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:13 PM

Speaking as an American who thought he knew a lot about British culture, I am surprised, chagrined, and annoyed to see that there are a couple of items on the original list I have never heard of:

The Angel of the North

SS Empire Windrush

The "Routemaster" Bus – well, I suppose I've ridden them, but I didn't know they were called that. I would have just called it a "double-decker bus."

Here are some things I consider icons of Britishness:

The "hackney carriage" a.k.a. "black cab"

Stilton cheese (followed by double Gloucester, Wensleydale, and red Leicester). Perhaps Brits would like to claim cheddar as their national cheese, but it is too common in America for us to consider it particularly British.

The pillar post box.

The Tower of London

The works of William Shakespeare

The Rolls-Royce (followed by the Jaguar, the Triumph, the Morris Mini, the Land Rover)

Parliament (I mean the institution, not the building, although the building is distinctive, too)

Marmite

The waxed jacket, flat cap, and green wellies

The Foot Guards

* * *
By the way, I'm guessing the compilers of the original list wanted to include only one item in each category. Stonehenge fills the category "building", so they had to omit the Houses of Parliament, Westminster Abbey, etc. The King James Bible fills the category of "serious literature", so they omitted the works of William Shakespeare, and so on. I see they also have one work of children's literature, one sculpture, one painting, one ship, one airplane, one land vehicle, one song, and one drink.

That rule probably accounts for the omission of most of the things we have been mentioning here.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:13 AM

Gormley's Angel of the North is probably best described as 'A gew-gaw off Stalin's mantelpiece' - or 'The Gateshead Flasher'; it's a monstrous piece of of mediocre post-modernism foisted on the people of the culturally impoverished North-East in an act of supreme paternalism. They have to a man (& a woman) supposedly taken it to their hearts; it has even found its way into a Folk Song to be heard around the North-East clubs:

For I'm the Gateshead Angel,
To Geordie-land I come;
To Fill the place with heavenly grace -
And add a touch of fun.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:43 AM

the Angel of the North is beautiful. I love Gormley's work. His Iron Man in Birmingham is also very powerful, and I like the figures on Crosby beach, though I've never seen them in person.

I interviewed him a few years ago - he's a fascinating an compelling man, who articulates the most vivid visual imagery.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: peregrina
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:07 AM

Icons of englishness:

Red pillar post boxes and beautifully printed stamps

Separate hot and cold water taps

The pound coin (is it the largest and heaviest in daily use in W. Europe?) As the world moves towards ever more plastic, electronic, and flimsy metal methods of payment, it's like a primitive reminder that money was once heavy metal.

Liking to complain for its own sake without taking positive action to change the situation
(sure, you can't change the weather of course, but just play the hat-counting game to confirm this observation! Apart from the teenage baseball cap and woolly hat brigade, it takes extremes of cold, wet, or social formality, to get hats on heads.)

The Angel of the North: I think it's moving and beautiful. Ed Pickford's website has his song about it, which is quite different from that other one quoted earlier; it combines humour with a nice evocation of what it means to locals. (can't do a blue link, but you can find it through google)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:20 AM

We have an even bigger coin now, the £2.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: peregrina
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:23 AM

Ah yes indeed quite right, but it's got a much larger diameter and is thinner--to me at least, it's not quite an avatar of the coins that I imagine in ballads and fairy tales the way the £1 is...

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:27 AM

Beauty is ultimately too subjective to justify so monstrous a gew-gaw created by someone who has nothing to do with the region. Public art on this scale, or any other, is a blight on the already blighted landscapes, just as the upper-middle class celebrity culture that inspired it is an affront to the dignity of the working-class people of the North-East of England who have to live with it 24/7.

Of all the local people I've talked to I'd say 50% hate the bloody thing, and of those who like it now, the majority of them would have voted against it if they'd been given a chance, which of course they weren't.

In the North-East we're seeing more and more public art; and more and more bewildered locals being forced to have an opinion on something they've never had to give a second thought to hitherto - and rightly so.

At least they might have made the Angel spin round and connected it up to the national grid, then it might have have been of some use, but even so it's nice to see it being increasingly dwarfed by the neighbouring wind-farms, which do at least serve a practical purpose whilst also making a valid aesthetic contribution to the post-industrial landscapes of North-East England.

So another icon: Wind Farms - for whilst it might well take 4,000 of the bloody things to generate as much electricty as your coal-fired power station, at least their beauty derives from function and not some art-school educated bourgeois conceptualised clap-trap which serves no practical purpose whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:21 AM

Cornish Pasties, Blackpool, Stone Walls,Jane Austen,Tower Bridge,Salisbury Cathedral, Glastonbury Tor,The Last Night of The Proms, Dreadful Coffee, Land Rovers, Border Collies and The Houses of Parliament.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,manitas sans cookie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:11 AM

I think Paul Burke is referring to Alice in Wonderland.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 09:09 AM

"The pound coin..." When it first came out it was nicknamed the Maggie - cheap, brassy and thinks it's a sovereign.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:36 PM

Mushy peas

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:59 AM

Apologising to the oik who has just kicked your ankle accidentally on purpose.

Sung Eucharist.

Steak and kidney pud

Malt vinegar aka non-brewed condiment

The greeting 'How do you do ?'

Potted shrimps

Seaside rock

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:41 AM

Er - refresh?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:48 AM

Driving. An impossible amount of road signs/restrictions/obstructions to deal with while, at the same time, attempting to avoid all the other idiots trying to do the same!

Forcing people to abandon their cars (and lorries) by stealth? Well, it is one way of dealing with over-congested roads!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:49 AM

The Herefordshire School of Romanesque Sculpture
The Macclesfield Psalter
The Luttrell Psalter
Parched Peas
The Mighty Boosh
Vic Reeves
Henry Purcell
Jim Eldon
Wind Farms (see above)
RNLI
Quatermass and the Pit
The Gobal village Trucking Company

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:42 AM

Sorry Guest, but you're getting Britishness and Englishness mixed up there I'm afraid.


G

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 09:06 PM

Pound Shops.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM

Stands the church clock at ten to three ...
and is there honey yet for tea?

The sound of leather on willow. And much of the stoicism and grief associated with it.

"Bunnykins" Wedgewood children's ceramics.

And those thatched rooves that are always associated with the village where only one camera position shows the houses without telegraph poles and TV antennae.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:53 AM

Whelks.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:47 AM

Foreigners on building sites.
Foreign owned corner shops.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:14 AM

Sadly the English hold the title of a nation high on the European list for abusing children. Over the past ten years alone several high profile cases concerning the murder and abuse of children has gained them that title.

They also hold the title of the worst football supporters in Europe (often seen holding blow-up Spitefires at games in Europe).


We could also explore their record for human rights abuse in the North of Ireland with both their police force and military being found guilty of crimes, including torture.

If I were English, I would keep it quiet, not a lot to boast about.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:31 AM

The police and military in NI were British not just English.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:46 AM

"If I were English, I would keep it quiet, not a lot to boast about."

On the contrary, I think we should be boasting about not just Englishness but our regionality, just as long as it isn't done in a jingoistic way that plays into the hands of the BNP racists.

Every country has its bad points but wht not take a positive stance and, whilst deploring abuses of all kinds, celebrate the great diversity of wonderful things that exists in England, and fight against the enforced uniformity and Americanisation that is destroying so much that is unique about England? Comrac, if you can't see a multiplicity of things that are good about England, you simply have not taken the trouble to find them - even though they are right in front of your eyes.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:01 AM

Foreigners on building sites.
Foreign owned corner shops.

Every English person is a foreigner & all aspects of English culture are derived from elsewhere. Aboriginality is a myth that only racists (such as WAV & the BNP) propagate for their evil divisive ends, oblivious to the fact that English culture is a composite in flux & entirely dependent on the individuals living here to give it any sort of meaning at all.

Immigration is the one true Icon of Englishness because it is Immigration that has defined England for the past 10,000 years and more. Without Immigration there'd be no fucker here.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:15 PM

That from IB who, here on Mudcat, described a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute"; and New Labour as a "bunch of mother-fuckers" for finally strengthening their immigration regulations a bit.

And, for the record, I'm NOT a member of the BNP or any other party - I'm an English nationalist who hates imperialism; etc.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:29 PM

What have the opinions of a workshy Australian benefits scrounger got to do with the price of fish?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM

...well at least we agree in part on that Gervase - IB, it seems, has now decided that posting false remarks in places that I may not find and be able to defend myself is also fair-play...any limits/regulations at all on your tactics, IB?

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

Without comment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM

You never get it right do you, WAV? If you use quotation marks, please be so good as to get the quote right. I called New Labour a bunch of mushy-mouthed mother-fuckers and for a good deal more than their immigration policies. Again, that is my expressed, but unpublished, opinion which I am, of course, welcome to. Your Japanese Plastic Recorder was not described as an Engrish Frute, rather it was christened an Engrish Frute in the light of your absurd persistence in calling such an instrument an English Flute which you do in support of your bizarre and noxiously racist published views on Nationalism, English Culture, English Racial Purity, Immigration and, of course, your specious Love of a Multi-Cultural WORLD.

And whilst you may not be a member of the BNP, you have expressed a sympathy with their vile cause and several of their policies, many of which echo your own published policies word for word.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:12 PM

IB, it seems, has now decided that posting false remarks

The remarks weren't false, WAV - I say again:

Every English person is a foreigner & all aspects of English culture are derived from elsewhere. Aboriginality is a myth that only racists (such as WAV & the BNP) propagate for their evil divisive ends, oblivious to the fact that English culture is a composite in flux & entirely dependent on the individuals living here to give it any sort of meaning at all.

Immigration is the one true Icon of Englishness because it is Immigration that has defined England for the past 10,000 years and more. Without Immigration there'd be no fucker here.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM

well at least we agree in part on that Gervase
Crikey, so you think your opinions are irrelevant as well? Wonders will never cease!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM

Big Girls Bottoms

If someone hasn't said it already, then it needs to be said.
I have one. And It's awfully English.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:17 PM

And a fine tradition it is, too.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:22 PM

"Big Girls Bottoms"

Look at it as an ASSet - more of you for someone to love.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 08:40 AM

Rosie, while I may agree with your point, I would need to see the aforementioned bottom before I could say for sure just how English it is. If you could post a few pictures from various angles it would be helpful to all of us. I should mention too that these need to be without clothes to assure the bottom in question has not been padded in any way to make it appear more English.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 08:41 AM

200

LOL


Spaw

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

Ahhh, but how could you be certain that the bottom in those various picks was indeed my own?

See I could easily Google 'big girls bottom' and deceive you into believing that the bottom/s in question were my own. While in truth I secretly possessed zero fat percentage razor blades for bum cheeks, and a cunningly secreted bustle.

No, all joking aside. Suffice it to say that obviously we all know English girls have big bottoms (it is after all an empirically proven science fact) and I am English ('cos it say's so on my birth cert.) therefore, I must very logically be in posession of an English girls big bottom >insert some latinesque sounding bullshit to make all this sound legitimate here<

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

Would greek do - Eukalipygynous.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 01:09 PM

'Eukalipygynous.'

Wow, that complete crap I wrote before really makes clear sense now....

If only I'd have had Eukalipygynous years ago when writing essays.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 01:30 PM

Latin and Greek - not for nothing are they the quack's friend! I knew those O-levels would come in handy one day. Another lovely Greek word is 'apopothuramai' - which means 'I fart for my own benefit'. Such a useful word!

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 02:55 PM

Gosh yes, don't they make bodily functions sound decidedly respectable!? I'll have to pass that charming conversation piece on to my boyfriend. Especially as he seems to be under the missaprahension that his farting is for my benefit, far more than his.

And isn't it marvellous how things in nasty mono-syllabled Anglo Saxon smell so much more common and embarrassing, than when lots of mysterious Latiny type syllables are involved?

Must make a Doctors day far less unpleasantly organic. He could be sticking a latexed finger up some old mans bum checking for >horrible common sounding anglo saxon here<, and just as well be sailing the seas with grumbly old Odysseus >mystery Latin term here<.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

In Virginia we describe two conditions of the female posterior as either suffering from bubblebuttitis or noassatall. I am definitely of the former camp. Got more than my fair share of derriere.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 06:08 PM

A posteriori. (Thanks Jake)

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:39 AM

One reason the English are fond of big girls' bottoms is that being fond of little girls' bottoms can get you into serious trouble.

However, the daughters of the upper classes have smaller breasts but bigger... assets?

Of course, traditionally our public-school upper classes (at least the chappies) were fond(l)er of the boys.

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:09 PM

C'mon Tim

Subject: RE: Icons of Englishness?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 12:14 AM

Is it just me, or do English women have much curvier bodies than the french girls?