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Are men more musical?
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Subject: Are men more musical? From: Barbara Shaw Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:46 PM I'm not sure I really want to start this discussion! Someone in the "How old are mudcats?" thread asked this question and wondered why there were always more men at jams. Were they more musical or just had more spare time? There seems to be a correlation between math ability and music ability, and the typically "male" careers like engineering and....... No, I'm getting out of those muddy waters. Let's hear someone else's thoughts on this subject. Aside from the predictable plumbing jokes and musical double entendres, it's an interesting question that I don't remember being asked before at Mudcat.
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Craig Date: 22 Mar 99 - 09:59 PM In an opposing correlation. Why are there more women in chorales and choirs than men? Are there more women than men who are able to read music? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Susan A-R Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:13 PM I think that in the past, whether in bluegrass circles, symphony orchestras or the jazz world, women were not expected to play, but singing was ok. I also think, p'raps, there's a selfe assurance issue about sessions, as opposed to choruses where you aren't as exposed. Now, as for Mudcat, I dunno, maybe these guys are all independently wealthy, and we should all sit up and take notice. Or maybe all of these guys are just bigger an' stronger and can elbow their partners away from that computer and take over the net. Probably we're just more technophobic and less able to afford the equipment in the aggregate.
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: j0_77 Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:16 PM Men like to socialize and compare toys. Women like to socialize but they don't seem to bother what kind of instrument they have just so long as it works for them. I don't think of a player as a man or woman - I just enjoy the entire sound :) |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:26 PM Than what? A piano bench? No proof source either way and believe me I wouldn't want to touch this one with a 10 foot keyboard. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: jets Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:41 PM When we are through with this question ,I would like to know if there are more married men than there are married women |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:52 PM Are we including same sex marriages? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Date: 22 Mar 99 - 10:58 PM There are the same number until you include same sex marriages and bigamists. I don't know any statistics on these, but suspect there are more male bigamists than female ones. Am I wrong? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Bill D Date: 22 Mar 99 - 11:00 PM no...men are not more musical...women may tend toward different expressions...but they do NOT have anything to feel # 2 about!! |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Mar 99 - 11:38 PM Okay...I'll bite! Perhaps it started way back when men had more freedom to roam as troubadours; women were tied down to the castle, children, the midden heap, or what have you, tending to and being subservient to the men? Which, if you really think about it, continued in most respects until the past forty years or so. Even when we were growing up in a musical family, none of us girls learned the guitar as much as we did singing and classical music instruments such as violin and piano. And, most of the famous women's groups such as the Andrews Sisters mostly sang that I know of, never much in instrument playing until later or in rare instances, although I know there were exceptions. And, I am not as knowledgable as you all in the history of trad. music. I don't think we can say either are more musical, just maybe in different ways which societal dictates have strongly influenced. Ya' gotta admit it's much more common, now, to see a woman playing an instrument (other than a tamborine!) in a band or even fiddlin' than ever before. There was a woman fiddler in Ireland, on tv the other night talking about when she first picked up a fiddle, at that time not a common thing for a girl to do, and played trad music. The men were pretty sceptical at first. Plus, you know, women have traditionally had the children etc. to tend and it's a LOT easier to use one's voice than try to haul a kid and instruments around then try to tune them while keeping the babies happy and quiet! Even in more ancient times, when women were allowed to learn an instrument it was often so that they could perform as entertainment for the men and/or be shown off as exotic ornaments of power and conquest. "Thoughts from an avowed feminist" Now, according to Rev. Pat Robertson, I will "leave my husband, kill my children, practise witchcraft (he'll be my first victim!), destroy capitalism, and become a lesbian." katlaughing
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Bruce O. Date: 22 Mar 99 - 11:59 PM In English (and American) society sin about 1600, there have been women who ditched the traditional roles, probably at great cost, to become successful in male dominated types of work. The Dutchess of Newcastle in the 17th century was a noted poet, as was Ann Bradstreet, the wife of the (English) governor of Massachusetts, and Aphra Behn the playright. Among the Irish harpers at the Belfast convention in 1796 was Rose Mooney. A Miss Johnson in Scotland was a noted composer of Strathspey reels in the early 19th century, but died at about 22 or so. C. K. Sharpe was a Scots collector of ballads and music, but his sister followed their father as a music composer. "Alknomook" on my website was writen by Mrs. John Hunter (who wrote the "Flowers of the Forest" in the Scots Musical Museum when she was still Anne Home). She wrote several other songs also. The better know "Flowers of the Forest" was written by Miss Jane Elliot (also on my website). (The third "Flowers of the Forest" was written by a Mrs. Cockburn.) One can say most of these had the advantage that they were married to rich men, but I think it's more important that they married highly intelligent ones, who could see societies rules were really quite arbitrary, not god given restrictions on women.
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Barbara Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:29 AM Men are better at playing musical chairs. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Night Owl Date: 23 Mar 99 - 01:19 AM Wondering what Bonnie Raitt's perceptions would be! |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:13 AM Are men more musical? I suppose it depends on where and how hard you hit them. I find that the best volume can be obtained from striking the belly region with a vibraphone hammer or dropping something heavy on the feet. As to how musical these emmisions are, or if a male foot or belly is more musical than a female ones, I wouldn't dare to comment. ***smiles the confident smile of someone who has just avoided falling in to a big hole*** |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Night Owl Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:17 AM Shambles, Sounds like the voice of experience.....hence the name?????? NOI |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: karen jonason Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:21 AM At folk clubs I go to I have noticed that many men will get up to sing whatever the quality of their voices. Women who sing tend to have better quality voices. Is that to do with male confidence/arrogance/need to perform? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: AlistairUK Date: 23 Mar 99 - 05:08 AM Karen: actually I would disagree with you. In my experience there is no difference. I have heard awful singers get up and sing from both sexes and they still think they are the Frankie Armstrongs of the local sets. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Sam Pirt Date: 23 Mar 99 - 06:33 AM Are men more musical? Good question Its like asking are black men ore musical than white men? I tend to find that most of the sessions I go to there is usually more men than women in it, I don't think that means they are any less musical though, as there are just as many big names in the folk scene that are women (take for example the Poozies) as there are men (patric street) But I do agree there does seem to be a bias towards men at times, quite what that means I don't know. bye, Sam |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Big Mick Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:01 AM Soooooooo..............How about those Mets???????????? Mick, who survived war, jumping out of planes, encounters with people eating sea creatures and jealous husbands with loaded pistols, but has no intention of tempting fate on this one. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:07 AM Men are definitely more chicken***big, BIG grin***! Guess they haven't learned just how reasonable and open-minded we women Mudcatters can be, eh? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Big Mick Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:24 AM "Try though you might, woman, I will not rise to that bait." he crowed and then went back to picking at the gravel in the coop yard. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:33 AM Kat, I agree with you all the way. Circumstances and society have created the situations which have just made the voice more do-able. I would be a much better guitarist if in my days of early motherhood the little dears didn't 1- crawl into my lap while I tried to play 2- run around screaming NO MOMMY DON'T while I tried to play, 3- think the instrument was made for tug-o-war. As for the preponderance of males on the"Cat, I think it's a computer thing much more than a music thing. I could start another thread- Are men geekier than women? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:54 AM Animaterra, You might be right, although personally I might be as geeky as the rest up to a point! Up until a year ago, to operate a computer in our house, one had to know what command to type in to make the recalcitrant 386 do its thing and woe to any who pushed a wrong button! I have a whole notebook full of notes on what I did to get where! Also, have a ring binder full of messages from when there was no readily available internet and I used to sit up late at night to get cheap long distance rates when I called up the Green Peace "chat" line and "talked" to people all over, at my expense! They do like their gadgets though don't they!? **smile** The lil' darlin's! katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Alan of Australia Date: 23 Mar 99 - 09:03 AM G'day, From Barbara's first post to this thread:- "There seems to be a correlation between math ability and music ability, and the typically "male" careers like engineering and....... " I've always found my engineering background to be helpful in understanding musical forms & structures. Such terms as 'octave' and 'harmonic' are as much engineering terms as musical. Whether that helps with my playing is another story...... And this does nothing towards answering the original question. For that we'd need a response from a female engineer.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: steve in ottawa Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:03 PM Why are social mixed-choirs dominated by women? Why are social mixed-jams dominated by men?
Possibilities?: Note that none of these suggestions has much to do with musical talent. Other points: Math and music? I think the experiments were done with easy high school math and *appreciating* Mozart-ish music. It's interesting, but doesn't prove anything about higher math and the talent to *make* music. If you want to study the "best" people in music -- fine. That's only raises the question of whether the most talented people always develop their talents.
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Cara Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:49 PM I guess "musical needs to be well-defined before this discussion can really take off. Love of music? Talent for it? Dedication to it? Re the number of men and women in choirs vs. at jams: Some years ago I read an interesting book on the differences between the communication styles of men and women by deborah Tannen. She made the point that even the earliest studies find that little girls in the classroom (first group setting)won't raise their hands to be called on, even if they know the answer. They prefer to blend in to the group. Little boys (again, this is a generalization of course) will pipe right up and glory in being the center of attention. The gender messages we send children begin very early. I guess it's not "ladylike" to call attention to oneself. I think it ties in with a whole larger picture--women are taught to be self conscious of their appearance, and to some extent that their worth is contingent upon other people's opinions of them. All generalizations of course. I certainly don't have any of those hang-ups. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Bruce O. Date: 23 Mar 99 - 01:36 PM My math background has help me considerably in understanding musical notation, and modal sturcture of tunes, but that's as far as it goes. I can't sing on key, and I've tried several instruments, but never got to the heights of being even mediocre. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Jerry Friedman Date: 23 Mar 99 - 03:15 PM I can say for sure that some men are more musical than some women. And vice-versa. I'm with Bruce on math and music. If there is a correlation (which I've heard too), there are exceptions. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: j0_77 Date: 23 Mar 99 - 03:42 PM Sorry but I dissagree completely - math skill is acquired and if the basics are not there then the person is not mathematical. Consider 1/0 and the difference between deduction and induction. Many a good musician I know would not have clue if asked about that kind of stuff, and most of the smartest math geeks I know would not know a C from a D let alone how to both sing and play. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: steve in ottawa Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:42 PM I was thinking (I do that sometimes) about this one. Professionals aside, most of the good guitar players I know are male and almost all of the good piano players I know are female. Does this match the experience of other people out there?
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Penny Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:54 PM Could the differences in structures of singing groups be due to the places they are happening? Our folk club at college, all girls, was mixed, with more women, because of where it was, but when I came out into the great wide world, I found that clubs were in pubs, not always the most open to unaccompanied women, (the nearest was also notorious for dealings in certain substances and it wouldn't have fitted my job to be seen there). Choral groups, choirs and operatic societies meet in more controlled environments, so can be seen as safe. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Art Thieme Date: 23 Mar 99 - 05:26 PM Mars? Venus? More musical? Better endowed? Whatever ya got? Men are from Earth. Women are from earth. Live with it! There never has been a female nitwit who fell in love with a man because of his huge breasts! There's never been a woman whose music became popular because she had a voice that sounded like Bob Dylan! (And men keep on trying to hit that "high lonesome sound"---Monroe, Elton Britt, Osborn Bros etc. etc.) Whoops, Yma Sumac!! What do it prove? Nothin' don't prove nothin', but it's free!!! Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Paul G. Date: 23 Mar 99 - 07:02 PM Oy. Dangerous landscape here. Differences in talent or ability? Don't think so...differences in versatility? Perhaps. I have found the female voice to be able to "do more" than most male voices...more expressive, quicker and cleaner dynamic and tonal changes. Different, yes. Qualitatively better or worse.......nah. Better or worse instrumentalists...nope, again. The beauty is always in the ear of the beholder. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:18 PM I think I can dare to tread into this discussion. Opinions? I have plenty to spare! I think research and my personal experience indicates that there are correlations between musical understanding and math. There are too many engineers and computer experts in the folk field to explain otherwise. On average, men are more likely to have good math skills than women are. For individuals, there is no rule. I think people's personal experiences as stated above have much influence. In the past, guys frequently learned music to "impress the girls." I have not heard any women who expressed learning music to impress the guys. Single women seem less likely to venture into new situations (jams) alone. If they don't find a partner (male or female) to go with them, they often don't go. You will see similar happenings in audiences. A number of solo men, few solo women. When I think of the singer-songwriter genre, I think there are more women than men. I am not sure of the "why" for this. There are bias against female players, note Pattie Larkins "Not Bad for a Girl" song. That's how her guitar work was "complimented." As for the Mudcat, I think the proportion of women has increased in the year I've been posting. Certainly among the frequent posters like me who can't keep their keyboards silent! Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Barbara Shaw Date: 23 Mar 99 - 08:42 PM Interesting comments! I left for work this morning wondering if anyone would post anything. So is there any effect of testosterone and/or estrogen on the musical process? Some of the politically incorrect assumptions of the past may well turn out to have some biological basis, such as the male hunter providing for the mother and child or the nesting impulses of the pregnant woman. Another thought: many of the arts support groups of the past were run by women of leisure (read wealthy wives), and these groups supported starving (male) artists who were expected to support themselves rather than marry for support. Now that opportunities for careers are more equally available to both sexes, this has become somewhat of an anachronism. (I'm hedging). The cultural basis has changed, which may account for more women playing rather than listening. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Barbara Date: 23 Mar 99 - 09:31 PM In regards music and math, I read a quote somewhere recently where a famous violinist -- I think it was Yehudi Menyuhin -- was asked about Einstein's violin playing, and he replied something like "Yes, I played with him a couple times and he wasn't bad. But like most mathematicians, he had a terrible sense of time." Music ability and gender, I think performance is biased toward males in our culture, and emoting towards females. Ideally music is both, so do they cancel each other out? Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Susan A-R Date: 23 Mar 99 - 10:11 PM As someone who's math is limited to balancing the check book and multiplying recipes by twelve, (And I WANT TO KEEP IT THAT WAY, PLEASE PLEASE, I am not sure that I buy the math thing, although I suppose that I could be a statistical anomoly (wow! where did THAT come from?) I am some glad that music is not a male or female thing exclusively, and seemingly getting more inclusive all the time, particularly in the instrumental realm. It makes it much more fun, both harmonically when we sing, and socially too. As someone who is married to a terrific male concert pianist, I have to say (p'raps another anomoly here) I don't buy the better female pianists arguement. Although piano lessons were certainly part of the "accomplished female" thing when I was growing up. Glad they thought fiddle would be better for my legally blind self. Kinda hard to truck one of those pianos around to festivals, jam sessions, etc. ramblin' Susan A-R |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Mar 99 - 10:47 PM This thread has moved along nicely since I checked in this AM and I must say the thought of it crossed my mind. At this point I think the best I can say is that in some cases I'd go with the piano bench. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Mar 99 - 11:23 PM Susan A-R: I agree. I've known more good male pianists, esp. my brother, even though all four of us girls had piano lessons, too, and play pretty well. I, too, am grateful to've had the opportunity to fiddle, as well. As for math, I know we cannot use generalizations, but I was really good at math, hated algebra and still amaze my kids with the math I do in my head. My husband, the enginer, whose head is always in the clouds, hasn't much of a musical bone/ability in his body, except a deep appreciation, no matter the gender of whoever is making the music! As for girls: when we moved East, we found women who'd grown up there or emigrated there were in general, raised to be more demure and self-effacing, bowing out for the men to shine. On the other hand, as you may have figured out, being raised in the West, I remember always thinking I could do anything I wanted to, even what the boys did, and sometimes better than they. Don't think my older sisters felt this as much, but I was not afraid to shine and I DID take up the violin to impress a man....my dad! All of which gets us no where nearer an answer to the original question....ah, well. It's, as always, interesting! katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Sheye Date: 23 Mar 99 - 11:55 PM Here kitty, kitty, kitty... Wow, Barbara, this is quite the lure. Catspaw, you beat me to the question that begged to be asked, so I'll agree - definitely more musical than a piano bench. And also less likely to pinch your fingers in too... Mick, how did you grow to be so sage? Pistol-packin' hubbies, eh? Sheye |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: steve in ottawa Date: 24 Mar 99 - 02:19 AM I remember a report of a study of young men and young women doing math problems alone in a cubicle, both clothed and in their underwear. Apparently, the young men weren't significantly affected by their clothing levels, while the young women did significantly worse when asked to take the tests wearing only underwear. The researcher planned to run similar tests for reading skills. But of course I'm wondering: are young women missing out on otherwise valueable semi-clothed practice time?
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: The Shambles Date: 24 Mar 99 - 03:55 AM This will probably stir things up a little, but it is a genuine question on a subject that I know very little about. I did a forun search before posting this here and I was none the wiser. I did find out that Catspaw attended one of the concerts, (with Karen). Could someone inform me of the rationale of and comments on of something in the US called 'Lilith Fair'? All I know is that is or was a series of concerts or festivals where all the performers were women? I don't know if any men were allowed to perform or attend (Catspaw there in disguise?), but if my information, such as it is, is correct, it would seem to be a very strange concept. Maybe the audience of these shows would be the best ones to answer the original question? So how about comming off the fence, Catspaw? ***smiles the nervous smile of someone who has just avoided walking into a big hole, but now finds himself face to face with a hungry tiger*** |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: alison Date: 24 Mar 99 - 08:03 AM Hi, Answering an observation above....... never had a problem walking into a jam session or folk clubs on my own....... you may get some funny looks.. and more than a few hopeful males will chat to you......... Oh .. and you meet lots of nice people... Any of you shy girls out there.. it's worth a try..... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Bev Lawton Date: 24 Mar 99 - 08:52 AM My basic answer is : It depends on how empty the head and how hard you hit them!! re. The computer/engineer thingy - well I'm employed as a computer analyst/programmer and reckon I'm pretty competant!!! but music theory etc is all Greek to me! I have to draw a little ring-a-round any time I want to change a song's key! re. Bad male/female singers we get a fair proportion of both! The only common denominator is their singular lack of tonal appreciation. As a singer only hears what they are singing thru the cranial bone structure I guess some peoples bones adjust the sound worse than others - it's got to be the only reason they think they sound ok:}} |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: steve in ottawa Date: 24 Mar 99 - 11:29 AM Re: Lilith Fair. I *think* it usually ran festival style with more than one stage. The main performers were all women -- I'm not sure about the backup musicians, and I'm damn sure the roadies weren't all women 'cause that woulda made the news by itself. Anyone with money was welcome to attend. Organized by the hugely talented Sara McLachlan who unfortuneately has an more huge ego. Semi-quote: "Radio stations didn't play two women in a row before I organized Lilith Fair." Yeah, right, Sara. I *really* can't understand objections to an all-women show. Or an all women musical retreat. And I suspect something good is lost when there's no men-only venue at a Shanty festival.
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Barbara Shaw Date: 24 Mar 99 - 01:14 PM Does testosterone help the self-confidence? This may be a factor in performing in public. And I hate to even bring up the 'B' word, but there are many more men playing *anjo than women. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Bert Date: 24 Mar 99 - 02:50 PM Well my Mother was the musical one in our family (Stepmother really, so I didn't inherit anything). My sister (also step) certainly did and she has perfect pitch and a wonderful voice. Now my Dad is singing all the time but he isn't too good musically and tends to simplify a lot of tunes and hits off notes now and then. Of course, I inherited ALL of his abilities. So I find music very difficult, with practice, over the years I have improved a little but it's still hard work. BUT, being an engineer, some of the theory is quite simple. One time when I was stuck out in the Middle East with no reference material I was able to work out from scratch that the ratio between successive frets on a guitar was the 12th. root of 2. Having learned at school that a string stopped at half it's length will sound it's octave. There is no way though that I could HEAR those intervals. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: Date: 24 Mar 99 - 03:13 PM 12th root of 2 = 1.059463094+, which is the basis of the equal tempered scale. With A = 440, then C below = 261.6255661+ Hz. |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: The Shambles Date: 15 Feb 00 - 08:58 AM I stumbled over this one and I must have been feeling mischievous? |
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Subject: RE: Are men more musical? From: JedMarum Date: 15 Feb 00 - 09:09 AM Good thread, but I think it should have been entitled; "Are men more musical than whimsical?" |
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