 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Declining Standards of English
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Bill D Date: 06 Mar 07 - 12:15 PM "..Wittgenstein was a beery swine Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel." but he wasn't "a ass". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Amos Date: 06 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM One that has always puzzled me is the use of the plural "their" associated with a singular verb/noun as in "Each man shall take their weapon apart..." or "Every one came to the meeting with their own agenda". I understand it is an escape from using the PC "his or her" which is really ugly language built on deep misunderstood grammar on the part of radical feminists, but it bugs me when so many people lower their standards, each in their own way! :D A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Peace Date: 06 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM I find that stuff to be ugly and stupid. "Ms Jones is our chairperson." NO, fer f#ck sake, "Ms Jones is our chairwoman." I still use the terms chairwoman and chairman. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Amos Date: 06 Mar 07 - 12:29 PM Bill: Wittgenstein was a ass. So there. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Mooh Date: 06 Mar 07 - 12:46 PM "My bad", which I hear several times a day from my students, is also perplexing. They say it where and when they would not have said anything previously. The first time I heard it I responded with, "your bad what?", not knowing any better. I'm sure it comes from somewhere well under my radar. Peace, Mooh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: the lemonade lady Date: 06 Mar 07 - 01:56 PM A pedant, or pædant, is a formalist or precisionist in teaching or scholarship. The corresponding female noun is pedantess. The term comes from the French pédant (1566 in Darme & Hatzfeldster's Dictionnaire général de la langue français) or its source Italian pedante "teacher," schoolmaster. You never take those heads off, do you? sal |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:47 PM If the language were the only bloody standards of the English that were declining, I'd settle for that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: kendall Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:48 PM What I don't get is, why do we care? I cringe when I hear the word exit pronounced egg zit and Luxury pronounced lugg sury. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Bill D Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM Yeah, Amos....I guess you're right |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:59 PM Shakespeare was a disgrace to the English language. He spells the same word in various ways, and his constant use of double negatives is be deplored! And I hate the way people say "noh" when using the word "know". Any fool can see that there is a "k" at the beginning! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Bill D Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:08 PM Knot that night! He Knever knotices. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Scoville Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:14 PM One that has always puzzled me is the use of the plural "their" associated with a singular verb/noun as in "Each man shall take their weapon apart..." or "Every one came to the meeting with their own agenda". I understand it is an escape from using the PC "his or her" which is really ugly language built on deeply misunderstood grammar on the part of radical feminists, but it bugs me when so many people lower their standards, each in Well, the "each man" one is just wrong--"each" is singular so it ought to be "his". "His or her" is tedious to say and is hard to understand when people talk quickly. That doesn't make it correct, of course, only I can understand why people have gotten into the habit of using it that way (especially since generalizing "his" now meets with so much resistance and seems less logical as gender circumscriptions dissolve). I've tried using "his" as one would in Spanish but people now assume when you say it that the group to which you refer is all men (or all women if you use "her"). That and the lack of a formal plural "you" form are sort of shortcomings of English. I really shouldn't use "y'all" in a letter to my senator. It's certainly more efficient than the invasion of the double negative ("I ain't got no . . ."), which actually requires more words than the proper "I don't have . . . "). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Nickhere Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:55 PM Scrump - did you hear about the immigrant woman in Australia who left a hospital where she'd been a patient in a state of dreadful anxiety. She'd been told by the doctor on duty that she "could go home to die" .... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: kendall Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:28 PM I believe Shakespere had an excuse, in that the language wasn't standardized back then. Burns made up words too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:52 PM If Wittgenstein was an arsehole, Shakespeare was a complete tosser. to be or f-----g not to be........wots that about then? complete bollocks if you ask me.... what we need is to reclassify our great Englishmen Arseholes on one side Complete Tossers on the other Obviously Tony Blair might straddle both categories ....effortlessly! But others:- Duke of Wellington Neville Chamberlain Margaret Thatcher Morrisey Oswald Mosley Prince Philip Winston Churchill Prince Charles well it seems to fair classification to me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,meself Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:31 PM "I believe Shakespere had an excuse, in that the language wasn't standardized back then." But the point is that if Shakespeare somehow managed to write some of the finest works in the English language without standardized grammar, spelling, and usage, perhaps standardization of grammar, spelling, and usage, ain't all it's cracked up to be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Mar 07 - 12:03 AM Along with Randal Cotgrave, a friend who published his dictionary in 1612, Shakespeare and other writers of the time were working toward standardization. Johnson was the big Kahuna in the standardization racket, however, with his publication in the 18th century. Johnson's work had only 40,000 words; that of a predecessor had 48,000, but Johnson disliked and left out 'cant,' as well as scientific-technical and foreign words. Anyone know how many words are in the current OED? They have taken in the words of Canada and the U. S. A., Australia-New Zealand, etc. including much UK as well as overseas dialect. Much technical and scientific vocabulary as well. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: katlaughing Date: 07 Mar 07 - 12:13 AM One source I saw said, last summer, that it had over 600,000 entries and they add about 1,000 new words per year. Another article, from 2002, said the average person has a vocabulary of about 20,000 words. Seems it is up to Mudcatters and others to use the other 580,000! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:49 AM Does anyone know why the British pronounce "tune" and "Tuesday" with an initial "ch" sound, unlike our American cousins who use the expected "t". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Scrump Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:42 AM Does anyone know why the British pronounce "tune" and "Tuesday" with an initial "ch" sound, unlike our American cousins who use the expected "t". Because in the UK, in many words (not all), the long 'u' is pronounced (more or less) 'yoo', but in the US it's pronounced 'oo'. So, 'tune' is pronounced 'tyoon' in the UK, and 'toon' in the US, etc. As I said, this isn't the case for all words. A word like 'rule' is pronounced 'rool' on both sides of the Atlantic. And there may be US exceptions I'm not aware of, that someone here will be able to supply. An exception is Norfolk, where (e.g.) 'computer' is pronounced 'compooter'. That's another thing that's annoying - people who get 'i.e.' and 'e.g.' mixed up. I often see documents with these abbreviations used wrongly. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: clueless don Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:33 AM Regarding "up with which I will not put", we all know that the correct construction is "...I will not put up with, a**hole!" (he said, remembering the punchline of an old joke.) Don |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: folk1e Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM In the "dim and distant" we traveled little and so many local dielects were created. We tend to mimmic the people who had power and so we have quaint customs like "Queens English". As the people mixed with one another these differing forms of the same language became known as quiloquialisms (pardon my spelling)which vied for popularity at different times and different people. This is not fixed in a stagnent state, much as my teachers would wish it was! Individual people may be judged by whichever standard you wish and be judged as failing, but a group cannot. Once a group sets a new rule in place it becomes real so that weather I say "Youse dissi'n' me?" or enquire as to your "legitimacy of parentage" you can understand the meaning. That is the purpose of language and if you do understand it, it is succesfull! Not that I am an expert ...... any more than you lot BTW Scump "Yee tee" means "you too?" in Geordie ..... (ducks & runs) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Scrump Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:34 AM That's OK, folk1e, I'm not a Geordie myself, but I can get by :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Amos Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM I assume you mean dialects, mimic, colloquialism, and whether? A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,meself Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM It's so nice to see someone sneering! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Scoville Date: 07 Mar 07 - 12:56 PM Must add the two-second spelling lesson: "separately" (separate, separation) "definite" "February" I got an email on a professional matter from an MD the other day with "separate" and "separately" misspelled. Sigh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Amos Date: 07 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM Forgive me if I seemed to sneer--I was struck by the irony of getting a lecture on language and its dynamics riddled with errors in language. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,meself Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:05 PM No doubt. But more to the point, the poster in question exhibited a deeper understanding of the dynamics of language than many on this thread who exhibit superior spelling. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: folk1e Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:20 PM YES .... guilty as charged! My spelling was, is and probably always will be crap! (crap .... a word derived from Mr Crapper's invention (the water closet)) ;0P no hard feelings,eah |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:32 PM What the flip is all the fuess about, eh? You think Elnglish is declinin'? Ha! I tell you what is delclinin' around here and that is frendley women, eh? I mean womeon who will, like, say YES. Know'm sayin'? Them kind are harder and harder to find arownd here and it don't have nothin' to do with declinin' starndards of flippin' ENGLISH. I think is has to do with stuff like...the flippin' Wimmens liberiation movement and shit like that. There is a lotta bad atitudes out there right now and it is probally becoz of idiots like Gloria Steinberg and them types. That's my theery and I'm stickin' with it, eh? It could also be the flippin' French taht are responsable becoz they would flippin' do AWAY with English if they could figger out how to. No foolin'. They are in a giant flippin' conspiracy to destroy the English race and langage. If it wasn't fer Don Cherry and a few otehr curageous men like him, English would be a dyin' langwage in this country. I flippin' kid you not! You can take that to the bank and de-flippin'-posit it, baby! - Shane |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: RangerSteve Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM One of the many trade schools that advertise every five minutes on daytime TV has a commercial with the phrase "Hire Education" across the top of the screen. Not a skool that eyed care to go two. Two things that really bug me: people who claim to have prostrate problems. Does that mean they can't lie down? And people who talk about Lyme's Disease. (That's an eastern U.S. disease carried by tics. It's fairly common in the northeast and pretty serious). It's LYME disease - from the town of Lyme, Connecticut, where it was first discovered, not named after a guy named Lyme. It bothers me most when I hear doctors get it wrong. I want my doctor to be able to call a disease by its proper name or I don't think I can trust him to treat it properly. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:58 PM Ranger Steve said (inter alia): One of the many trade schools that advertise every five minutes on daytime TV has a commercial with the phrase "Hire Education" across the top of the screen. Maybe it's on purpose, to suggest that after attending their establishment you'll get employment. (Actually, now that I wrote that in jest, I think that might really be the purpose.) And people who talk about Lyme's Disease. (That's an eastern U.S. disease carried by tics. It's fairly common in the northeast and pretty serious). It's LYME disease - from the town of Lyme, Connecticut, where it was first discovered, not named after a guy named Lyme. That's an example of a wider phenomenon. There's a chain of Italian restaurants called "Bravo". I lost count long ago of the people who suggest, "Let's go to Bravo's." And similarly with other restaurant names. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Becca72 Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:54 PM My mother used to like to shop at "Ames's". Drove me batty when she'd say that. The name of the chain of stores, for those who've never heard of them, is (or was...they've mostly gone under) Ames. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Amos Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:30 PM I wonder, now, if there is some deeper current behind all these critical thoughts aimed at those who abuse the delicate details of form, whether or not the substance of their communications is of weight or interest. Criticality often comes, for example, from a projection onto others of that which one most fears or dislikes in oneself. Just a thought... A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,meself Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM Yup. You (the generic "you") are only a generation away from the working class, and you dread the possibility that you or your progeny will make the short slip back down the social heap. And of course one of the perks of having reached the middle class - to weigh against the insecurity of same - is that it gives you a whole bunch of people to look down on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: bobad Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:51 PM "a whole bunch of people to look down on." Shouldn't that be "a whole bunch of people down upon which to look?" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,meself Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:08 PM Argh!! My thin veneer of middle-class linguistic respectability has been shattered! Feeling weak ... ain't got no strength ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Bert Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM Then there are all those TV chefs who don't know the difference between 'bit' and 'drop'. "We'll add a bit of water" - NO YOU WON'T! you'll add a drop of water; unless of course you mean ice. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,Bardan Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:45 PM yez all take this way too seriously. I think it's a way for people to safely feel superior. It wouldn't be PC to feel class superiority anymore, so you do it indirectly by feeling superior about their English. Bit sad in my opinion. I really like hearing different dialects, and I don't mind seeing them transliterated either. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Peace Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:58 PM "(crap .... a word derived from Mr Crapper's invention (the water closet))" Ectually, he improved it, not invented it. And a bloody good thing he did, too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,heric Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:10 AM >>>I wonder, now, <<< Isn't wonder present tense? >>if there is some deeper current behind << Isn't deeper underer? >>>all these critical thoughts aimed at those who abuse the delicate details of form, <<<< whoa >>>whether or not<<< is the "or not" part redundant? >>>the substance of their communications is of weight or interest.<<< Dude - I was enoying the Clarity of four Hefeweizen - but wait - now it's all cloudy. Whose communciations? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: katlaughing Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:44 AM It was good enough for Kris Kristofferson, the Rhodes scholar, in "Jesus was a Capricorn:" 'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on. Who they can feel better than at anytime they please. Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on. If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,heric Date: 08 Mar 07 - 01:09 AM If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me I guess they might as well hang me for that as for the things I actually done. Tom Horn |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:20 AM No, "down on whom" would be correct. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: kendall Date: 08 Mar 07 - 07:21 AM Becca72, She had A number of quirks in her speech that bugged me. 1. Alls I had to do...(all doesn't need that "s") 2. I went to the Doctors. (There was only one Doctor) But one of the more humorous statements she used to make, "She went and got herself pregnant." Or, "They took him out and got him drunk." Or, "Now look what you made me do." She did well in school, but like so many others, she stopped learning the day she graduated. Portland high school was, and is a top quality school. The one I attened was so sub standard, you could get a letter if you knew what the letter was. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: GUEST,meself Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:53 AM "I went to the Doctors. (There was only one Doctor)" - I can't speak authoritatively about the instance you cite, of course - not having known "She" - but my understanding is that if someone says, "I went to the Doctors [sic]", they (he/she/it) mean "doctor's" - in the possessive - short for "the doctor's office". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Scrump Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:05 AM Likewise the example of "Ames's" store. The owner's name was presumably Mr or Mrs Ames, and his or her store was "Ames's" store, sometimes abbreviated to "Ames's" for short. Da's wo' I finks any'ah. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Alec Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM To take arms against a sea of troubles... The most famous mixed metaphor in the history of the English language? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Amos Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM Geeze, if you can't trust Bill Shakespeare, who CAN you trust anymore? ;>) A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English From: Peace Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM You can trust Frank Sinatra. "To be or not to be", William Shakespeare "Shoo be doo be do bee", Frank Sinatra |
