BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:05 PM

A well reasoned post there Lighter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

> The US is interested in bombing a foreign country only when the political leadership sees this action as "in their interest".

Thank God. Would you have them do it just for the hell of it? Or for idealistic reasons that look like they're sure to backfire?

The nature of international relations makes governments act above all in their own perceived interests. They'd be crazy not to - though sometimes, like Hitler and Mussolini, they badly misperceive those interests.

If the interests of the US coincide with those of the Libyan rebels, both can benefit.

Many voices have called for Gaddafi to resign pecefully. He didn't do it bfore, and he's not doing it now that bombs are falling.

His personal pride is understandable, but he owes it to his country to quit. The fact that he's willing to kill thousands of his own people to stay in power is reprehensible.

You can't reason with people like G any more than you could reason with Hitler or Mussolini. You either let them do their thing or you try to stop them.

Sometimes, fortunately, it seems advantageous to try to stop them.

If you base your international decisions solely on how many people are less likely to be killed or what will create the least amount of destruction, you give the sociopaths a free hand.

Of course, no matter what you do somebody will suffer. Once the shooting starts, you can't escape it till it's over.

Some might recommend Ghandilike passive resistance to the Libyan rebels. Personally I wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:37 PM

Charley Noble, the military solution in Bosnia was too "easy". Why is it that when there's a diplomatic problem to be solved the US and other power countries send in the military?
That problem in Bosnia is not fixed. It is a problem that has had historical magnitude in the cultural life of the people. This is where the term "Balkanization" comes from.

The problem with Bosnia is that there were atrocities on all sides including Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians.

The most poignant and best model for social change in a country that is wracked with violence is Egypt, although they may have compromised their revolution by handing over the governmental authority to the military, not capable of operating in a democratic fashion but a hierarchical one.

Gadaffi will be replaced probably with someone equally heinous as we see with Assad, Salleh, the Caliphate, and King Abdullah. The US is interested in bombing a foreign country only when the political leadership sees this action as "in their interest". It's a quick fix which puts the proverbial band-aid on an open wound.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM

UN human rights council reports......"War crimes have been committed by the Gadaffi regime and the insurgents"......as I reported yesterday.

I suppose we will be "protecting" Col Gadaffi's civilians and turning our smart bombs on the rebels!

Meanwhile the slaughter of civilians goes on elsewhere unabated.
Hillary says "oh I do wish they would stop it"!!!
Cameron just ignores it.....the fat, self-satisfied, arrogant cunt!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:54 AM

No reason an immediate ceasefire, as required by Resolution 1973, should stop Italy doing that. Might even make it easier:

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Demands the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 11 - 11:40 PM

WSJ. com, 31 May 2011:    Italy will be making millions of euros in urgently needed fuel supplies and cash available to the rebels.    "...billions of dollars of Libyan holdings inside Italy would be used as collateral."    This will happen "within weeks."

That should tip the balance against Gadhafi.

He should be gone by the end of summer--if not before.


So the amazingly naive suggestion of "monitoring" a settlement between Gadhafi and the rebels is a pathetic sideshow.    Fortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 05:36 PM

"we want to get someone in power whom we can deal with.

Not a bad priority but I'm still not persuaded it's the only important one. And, sadly, there is no guarantee that Western powers will get a new government that they can deal with in a more business like way.

Akenaton-

Have you really nothing to say about Bosnia or does its recent history not fit conveniently into your analysis of NATO intervention?

Hey, we're all friends here, looking for insight!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:09 PM

> The end result will not be Western "democracy", but a fundamentalist Islamic axis.

That could be, but it could have been anyway. Maybe it won't be. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 11 - 12:50 PM

Col Gadaffi is fighting an insurgency driven by Western arms and military strikes....regime change is the name of the game....Stringsinger is right, "protection of civilians" is a sham, we want to get someone in power whom we can deal with.

The lie is proved by the daily shooting of civilian protesters in Syria, Bahrain, and now Yemen.

The end result will not be Western "democracy", but a fundamentalist Islamic axis.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:50 AM

So while we continue to debate international philosophy, Gadhafi's generals abandon his sinking ship. Anyone prefer to raise a fiddle tune?

Stringsinger-

Does the international military intervention in Bosnia fall into the same pattern, or was it a unique humanitarian intervention?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:21 AM

U.S. democacy is real, it's just far from perfect.

Libyan, Syrian, Saudi, etc., democracy is nonexistent.

So there's a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:11 PM

"What is happening to our people has frightened us," said one officer, who identified himself as General Oun Ali Oun.

"There is a lot of killing, genocide ... violence against women. No wise, rational person with the minimum of dignity can do what we saw with our eyes and what he asked us to do."

Another officer, General Salah Giuma Yahmed, said Gaddafi's army was weakening day by day, with the force reduced to 20 per cent of its original capacity.

"Gaddafi's days are numbered," said Yahmed."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 11 - 09:45 PM

"Eight senior officers who defected from Col Muammar Gaddafi's army have appealed to fellow soldiers to join them in backing the rebels.

One of the eight accused pro-Gaddafi forces of "genocide".

The men - who are said to include five generals - appeared at a news conference in Rome.

One of the generals who spoke to reporters in Rome, named as Oun Ali Oun, read an appeal to fellow soldiers and security officials to abandon the regime "in the name of the martyrs who have fallen in the defence of freedom".

He also denounced both "genocide" and "violence against women in various Libyan cities"

Another general, Melud Massoud Halasa, told reporters that Col Gaddafi's forces were "only 20% as effective" as they were before the rebellion, as "not more than 10" generals remained loyal to him.

Former Libyan Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalgam, who now backs the rebels and appeared at the news conference, said a total of 120 soldiers had defected in recent days.

Since the start of the uprising in February dozens of army officers, government ministers, and diplomats have abandoned Col Gaddafi."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13596475

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:17 PM

Saving civilians is a ruse. What the administration wants is regime change under the guise of protecting civilians so to do business with a dictator they like.

What's the proof? The US is supporting dictators and citizen abuse and killing in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Indonesia, Palestine and other hot spots that have dictatorial control.

You will never introduce democracy or democratic values into a country at the point of a gun.

The only exception, some would say, would be the American Revolution against England. Yes, but do we have real democracy in the U.S. today?

Hasn't America become a hegemonic in its attempt at world domination?
Proof? American military bases across the world.

Does this provide security for the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:07 PM

The opening words of Resolution 1973, which is the legal basis for this action are "Demanding an immediate ceasefire".

The immediate threat to the people of Benghazi which prompted this resolution is no longer there. Saving civilians was the basis for the resolution. Continuing military intervention to bring about regime change was not envisaged in the resolution.

Nor does it seem to be particularly likely to bring about such change, without a level of escalation that would risk causing signifi8canmt civilian deaths, this time in Tripoli.

Complying with the UN resolution's demand for an immediate ceasefire on the part of NATO need not improve Gaddafi's chances of staying in power. In fact the negotiations could well make it easier for people on his side who want to get rid of him to do so. It might also provide a chance for the regime in Benghazi to strengthen itself for a possible renewal of the fighting, if the negotiations break down.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:30 AM

And what Bobad says regarding Russia is particularly significant --and is supported also by solid sources like Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:28 AM

"what I said".    That is, to those who are determined to find an excuse not to intervene in Libya, any unsupported statement will do.

"monitoring mechanism".    Charmingly naive.

And how long will this be necessary, with the autocrat still in power?

Those who are not ideological warriors--and lazy to boot--- will see that some Western interventions are justified, and some are not.

If you are not an ideological warrior, who sees the threat of Western colonialism in every shadow, please cite just one example of a justified Western intervention in the Mideast.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 11 - 06:21 AM

The list of those who would be considered 'intellectuals' and worked for the 3rd Reich is much shorter.

But quite long enough to confirm what I said. As for the list of intellectuals who expressed support for Stalin...

As for: "promoting the nastiest ideologies" Another meaningless statement. The meaning seems pretty clear to me, and I suspect to most people.

However all this is drifting the thread a bit too far. I think the intellectual status of the people involved is not particularly relevant.

Here is a newspaper comment piece which does seem more relevant to me - Why no mention of a ceasefire for Libya, Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 11 - 05:38 AM

According to an article in todays Times, calling for Gadaffi to be quickly "finished off", gangs in Benghazi are already murdering anyone associated with the regime, law and order is breaking down amongst the insurgents and they are splitting into factions.

Fundamentalists 1......"Democracy" 0 ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:14 AM

"Straes in the wind"

Just been listening to BBC radio...a senior analyst reporting from Cairo says that elections sould be held back from the muted date of Sept 11 as the Islamist parties (Muslim brotherhood) are extremely well organised and will win by a landslide.

This will tend to be the pattern for all of the so called Arab Spring countries......the creation of an Islamist axis, as planned.

I suppose that in itself is "democracy"......if there is such a thing in reality.

"The people" is indeed a beast of muddy brain, who fights for his chains, rather than be free!


Thomasso Campagnella

THE PEOPLE is a beast of muddy brain
That knows not its own strength, and therefore stands
Loaded with wood and stone; the powerless hands
Of a mere child guide it with bit and rein;
One kick would be enough to break the chain,         5
But the beast fears, and what the child demands
It does; nor its own terror understands,
Confused and stupefied by bugbears vain.
Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties
And gags itself—gives itself death and war         10
For pence doled out by kings from its own store.
Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:19 PM

For one thing Charley, it seems that the Russians have realized that Gaddafi was not going to win and have switched allegiance, saying now that he must go and offering to negotiate his departure.

Also more than 100 community and tribal leaders from Libya have met with members of the opposition National Transitional Council at a conference in Turkey, in a bid to show a united front against Gaddafi.

Most of the tribal leaders who gathered in Istanbul on Saturday and Sunday, were from the powerful Warfalla clan based in Baniwalid, a city in western Libya.

The delegates were calling for an end to the violence in Libya and the departure of Libyan leader Gaddafi and his sons.

The meeting has been billed as a possible game-changer for the Gaddafi government as the Warfalla are said to have been supporting Gaddafi militarily, especially around the western city of Misurata.

source Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:03 PM

I do wonder what is happening in Libya while the fires burn above but my desktop computer died today and I'm stuck with my Notebook for a day or two.

Anyone else willing to post an update?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 11 - 07:18 PM

"promoting the nastiest ideologies"

Another meaningless statement. Congratulations.



First, how many Jewish intellectuals were promoting Nazism in the 3rd Reich?   And how many fled Germany?

Secondly, you need to research the term "Gleichschaltung".    In the 3rd Reich it was crystal clear what ideology was to be promoted.   Others were unerwunscht.   And this was also clear. If you think intellectuals were happy with Gleichschaltung, you need to do a lot more research.

Only if you stretch the term "intellectual" way beyond any rational meaning to include Goebbels, Rosenberg ,etc and the bureaucrats under them does your assertion have any chance--and then it is a caricature.

Which is unsurprising.

Thirdly you need to study the term "inner migration".

Then perhaps you will be possibly able to make a reasonable statement.

If you have any interest in doing so--which at this point is questionable.


Added to which I note you have not addressed the crux of the problem--which is, as I said, that intellectuals want to express themselves--not parrot the line of the rulers.

In Libya today, they have the opportunity to express themselves--but only under the Benghazi government, not under the Gaddafi regime.   So a large number have voted with their feet---just as a huge number voted with their feet in Germany--or indeed were forced out.   With well-known benefits to places like Hollywood in the 30's.

There is a huge list of expatriate intellectuals who left Germany and the Nazi-dominated parts of Europe in the 30's.

The list of those who would be considered "intellectuals" and worked for the 3rd Reich is much shorter.

As anybody who has any grasp of history should know.


Unless that person is an ideological warrior.    Which seems to be a likely answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:41 PM

Ron.... I think you would be wise to stick to politics....and leave philosophy,satire, irony etc, to Mr McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:52 PM

I really wish that you could rely on intellectuals to be on the right side - maybe you could find out which was the right side by counting up intellectuals...

However I'm afraid there has never been any shortages of intellectuals among those promoting the nastiest ideologies.

Of course it is always possible to define the term intellectual so that it is restricted to those with whom we agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:32 PM

In fact Gaddhafi is much like Hitler in that regard:    Hitler was thought to embody Germany as Gaddhafi Libya.

And the facile assertion that some intellectuals supported Hitler is amazingly meaningless.

As I recall, some intellectuals--to say the least--left Germany rather quickly.   You might want to read some history on this point. Compare the number who stayed with the number who left--and their prominence.

And by and large those who stayed were sorry they had done so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:22 PM

Far more intellectuals among the rebels.   The reason is obvious---Gaddhafi has strict censorship.    You might be aware that intellectuals like to express themselves---or possibly you're not aware of this.   In which case you might want to do some reading--rather than sounding off from ignorance.

You might even read this thread--including the quote I cite by an intellectual who points out one of the problems is that Gaddhafi resents the idea that anything good could come from another source than him.

In his mind and those of his supporters, he embodies Libya.   The rebels beg to disagree.   And that is a real source of discord--to put it mildly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 11 - 03:44 PM

Pedantic point: Whether someone is "an intellectual" isn't really that relevant. Intellectuals are just as capable of being on the wrong side as anyone else. There were intellectuals among those supporting Hitler and Stalin, for example.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find intellectuals among Gaddafi's supporters as well as among his opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Another update with regard to the desperate battle for Misurata Airport from Al Jazeera in this excellent video: click here for report!

The control tower looks undamaged as well as the runway and some service should be able to be restored shortly.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:42 PM

"who make up a large part"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:41 PM

Ake--

From your list of the West's sins, it does not appear Libya is on it.

Good reason, if true:    in Libya the West is standing against a tyrant, for once---and also not invading.

For the n'th time, we are there at the fervent entreaties of fighters against a tyranny--rebels whose main complaint is that we are not doing enough, not that we are engaged in an imperialist campaign---since we are not engaged in such a campaign.   Except to armchair socialists who recognize nothing outside their cartoon Marxist world.

You were also going to tell us what you have against all the intellectuals who make us a large part of the rebels.

Can't understand how you have forgotten to address this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 01:12 PM

The "Band of Brothers"

What are they going to do with Saudi, Syria, Bahrain?

Fuck all thats what!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 12:02 PM

From Al Jazeera

"Russia has agreed to mediate the exit of Muammar Gaddafi, Libya's leader, after leaders at the Group of Eight (G8) meeting in France called on Russia to take the role.

Sergei Ryabkov, the Russian deputy foreign minister, told reporters on Friday that "Gaddafi has forfeited legitimacy" and that Russia is ready "to help him go".

Soon after, Mikhail Margelov, Moscow's special representative on Africa told reporters that his country is ready to negotiate Gaddafi's departure.

Margelov explained that Russia is in contact with Gaddafi's entourage, and that they are willing to negotiate Libyan leader's fate."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:48 AM

My post was directed at Akenaton's previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:46 AM

I note you fail to mention the avowed aim of militant Islam to impose it's religious law on the world as a cause of violent extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:44 AM

>"We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

Yeas, but who doesn't?

It's true that OBL didn't care how much booze we drink in the West or how many women vote. And it's equally true that the claim that he attacked the West because he "hated our freedoms" is the truth dumbed down to caricature.

However, opposition to Israel, the Saudi regime, and the Western presence in Arabia, are just specific manifestations of what Al- Qaida really wants. (Even its opposition to the Russians seems based on the jihad mentality as much as on any political idealism.)

What Al-Qaida wants is a Muslim Caliphate in Eurasia and eventually everywhere. That's how they read the Koran, and they read it that way partly because they're angry, violent people - including some genuine sadists like OBL - looking for God's permission to express their own violent aggressions. The honest ones really think they're doing God's work by scourging the infidel. (You don't blow yourself up or crash into a skyscraper just because you're bored or perverse.)

There's no way to know whether Al-Qaida will wax or wane, or how often. Its declared enemies have to make whatever defensive choices they think will be most effective. And they can be wrong. That's life in the swamp.

The same principle goes for the outcome of the "Arab spring." There's no telling where it will go.

As for BP's oil deal with G, his threat to "tear it up" (if he made it) sound like a demand to renogotiate. Deals are renogotiated all the time. Why should he cut off his best customers? If oil had been the "real" issue, NATO would have attacked anyway, rebels or no rebels. Where's the evidence that an attack, with serious political risks in the Arab world, was even being planned? And if the rebels were the deciding factor, they were the deciding factor. That's good enough for me.

Complicated political events (like a NATO attack) don't stem from one or two reductionist causes like greedy capitalists *or* selfless idealism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:38 AM

Lighter ....I did mention further up the thread, the fact that Col Gadaffi was about to tear up a multi billion oil rights contract with BP, shortly before the insurgency started.

I suppose we decided that it would be easier to use the insurgency as a pretext to kill or remove Col Gadaffi and his supporters than agree to the conditions required by his oil ministry.

Ex CIA man writes in todays Times on the "Arab Spring" and how we fail to understand the situation
"Mr Scheuer said that the cause of violent extremism was undimmed, despite claims that the Arab Spring demonstrated its rejection. "We in the West have come away from the Egypt experience thinking democracy is on the march there. I doubt it. We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

He said that US/UK foreign policy and Western intervention defined its relationship with the Muslim world. "There are almost 900 pages of primary sources on bin Laden — sermons, speeches, etc ... There is almost nothing in there about waging a war against the West for its freedoms or liberty or gender equality or drinking alcohol.

"It is support for Israel, support for the Saudi police state, it's our presence in the Arab peninsula, it's support for the Russians in the Islamic Caucuses.

"There is no more effective recruiter for al-Qaeda than the status quo of American foreign policy." Full article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:06 PM

I forgot something about State Socialism: the imposition of one's educational training and occupation by bureaucrats who have to meet a quota.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:14 PM

Because, Ake, helicopters can get much closer to the ground--and ensure, therefore that their fire is accurate.   So less danger to civilians.

There is of course more danger to the helicopters and their crews than to the crews of planes higher up.

So those against Western involvement in Libya can start right now with their "I told you so" whines for the--inevitable over time--casualties to Western military participants.



Which is why the US should jump back in fully--to shorten the time frame dramatically.

As I said earlier, time to lance this boil.

Particularly since the rebels are running low on funds.

And the US has not even recognized their provisional government--I gather because of complications in Congress.

Seems a pretty flimsy excuse to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:04 PM

Gaddafi might have stayed in power with the support of the international community if he had waited out the peaceful protests, or even made some minor concessions. But he didn't. He decided that a military response was called for to suppress peaceful protest, backed up with unleashing his secret police to kidnap, interrogate and torture the protest leaders.

So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:05 PM

How does interfering with Gaddafi's long established and dependable oil exportations help the greedy capitalists who are supposedly running the show?

I've been asking this question since the beginning, but no one seems to have an answer. All they "know" is that "it's about the oil!" Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:13 PM

Hmmm....helicopter gunships to protect civilians.....Shurely shome mishtake!

Just watched the Question Time audience in Exeter sit in stoney silence, while an assortment of political puppets attempted to make a case for what is happening in Libya.
Their case basically amounted to "but there may have been a massacre of civilians"...they then misquoted Col Gadaffi in the same way that some posters here have done.
There was a huge cheer for the audience member who said that difference between our treatment of Libya, Syria, or Bahrain was OIL, not democracy or human rights.

"BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself."
I think I had better explain that point, by "personal fulfillment" I do not mean the accumulation of personal wealth.
Most of the really rich people I have encountered are the least personally fulfilled.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 04:51 PM

Meanwhile back on the ranch:

UK and France to deploy 16 gunships for Libya

By George Parker in Deauville
Published: May 26 2011 20:06 | Last updated: May 26 2011 20:06

"France and Britain are putting 16 ground attack helicopters on standby to launch attacks on Muammer Gaddafi's regime in Libya amid claims in the west that his grip on power is weakening.

France has sent 12 Tiger and Gazelle helicopters on the carrier Tonnerre while British officials said on Thursday that David Cameron, UK prime minister, had signed off on the deployment of four Apache aircraft."

Evidently NATO is adding to their military options in an attempt to increase the pressure on Gadhafi to run to Venezuela.

Charley Noble

EDITOR'S CHOICE
Arab democracies win G8 aid pledge - May-26

Global insight: Rulers' fate hangs on militaries - May-26

Hundreds flee Yemeni capital as 40 more die - May-26

Tunisia tensions focus on 'British Gas' plant - May-26

Worried tourists turn backs on Egypt - May-26

In depth: Middle East protests - May-16

The Apaches, aboard HMS Ocean in the Mediterranean, would be operational within days, with an expectation that Nato could send them into action soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:11 PM

How is our Capitalist system adjusting and adapting T?

By robbing the poor and giving to the rich?

The bail out of the capitalist system was a disgrace, quite simply robbery, to save a system which is bound to fail again.

Capitalism has many moral faults T, but it's biggest fault is that it is ultimately unable to sustain itself.

If the people are to be used as consumers, they must be given the means to buy consumables and be kept reasonably healthy.

Unfortunately we no longer vable to compete on the sloping pitch created by global capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Do you mean labor camps? A one-party system? Government-run media? Show trials? Abolition of religion and closing of houses of worship? Imprisonment for criticizing the government? The entire economy run by a few clueless officials? Government permission needed to travel from city to city? Limited or no due process of law? Enforced collectivization of agriculture and industry? Oligarchy? No news but official propaganda? Extensive secret police network? Abolition of free enterprise? Food lines? Years-long waiting lists for vacations, apartments, etc.? Truly rotten public services? Minorities shipped to arbitrarily identified "autonomous (but really not)regions"? Declared interests of the state always put ahead of the individual? All art, music, and literary criticism based on the doctrines of nineteenth-century economists Marx & Engels? Parliament of yes-men? The official encyclopedia of world knowledge constantly revised by the government to fit the latest propaganda view - with all mention of certain important historical figures deleted for being too controversial to know about? Rigged elections? Threats and brute force used to quash all political dissent?

Not much similarity that I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 11 - 12:46 PM

Teribus: "The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one."

Stay tuned..and you can watch ours collapse as well!.....- because we are but pretty much, adopting their same policies!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:42 AM

Well Akenaton the track records of Capitalism and Communist Socialism illustrate that while the former is flexible and capable of infinite adaptation to fulfil the needs and requirements of the society it serves the latter is not, nor will it ever be capable of doing so.

How many times now have you tolled "Capitalism's" death knell? How many times have you been wrong?

Gaddafi's days are over, sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:23 AM

That 5:32 a.m. post was not from me but from some impersonator.

I am no longer a "GUEST."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:25 AM

India too will decline in time Teribus, decline is built into the system.

By then of course we shall have aquired the status of a third world country and the wheel shall be back on the rise.
That is, excluding any catastrophic wars engineered by desperate capitalists to protect their precious system.

Then we shall see how much life and liberty means to our leaders
Col Gadaffi will look like the Christmas Fairy in comparison.

BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself.

The difference Teribus, is that I can see beyond any ideology whereas you are stuck in a time warp when people still believed the lie that Capitalism would be capable of providing for modern society.
Get your head out of the mire and recognise what is happening to your Empire......

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:32 AM

Maybe this is why the British Royal Air Force has been missing a hell of a lot of it's intended targets !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390818/Libya-pilots-inappropriate-behaviour-Two-RAF-airmen-flown-home-drunk.html