BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM

For those who steal admire Gadhafi's "socialist utopia", you might want to review (or not) some of the correspondence between his security chief and the CIA and M-16 that have been collected from his abandoned office in Tripoli by Human Rights Watch (from Al Jazeera): click here for update!

Here's a teaser quote:

Documents found in the abandoned Tripoli office of Muammar Gaddafi's former foreign minister and intelligence chief indicate that US and British spy agencies helped his regime persecute Libyan dissidents, Human Rights Watch said.

The documents were uncovered by the human rights activist group in abandoned offices once occupied by Moussa Koussa, one of Gaddafi's closest associates who left Libya for the UK in February as the uprising against the now-toppled Libyan leader began.

The group said on Saturday it had uncovered hundreds of letters between the US's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the UK's MI6 secret service and Koussa, who is now believed to be in Qatar.

But, hey, Gadhafi kept the trains running on schedule!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:44 AM

bobad-

That is the kind of detail I love to gain access to. The report helps make sense out of what appears to be chaos.

It's a miracle that Operation Mermaid Dawn wasn't compromised by spies within the Rebel command. Bet there were some close calls.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:01 PM

Charley, you might like this:

By Associated Press, Published:
August 24BENGHAZI, Libya — They called it Operation Mermaid Dawn, a stealth
plan coordinated by sleeper cells, Libyan rebels, and NATO to snatch the
capital from the Moammar Gadhafi's regime's hands.

It began three months ago when groups of young men left their homes in Tripoli
and traveled to train in Benghazi with ex-military soldiers.

"They went back to Tripoli and waited; they became sleeper cells,"
said military spokesman Fadlallah Haroun, who helped organize the operation.

Operation Mermaid Dawn began on the night of August 21 and took the world by
surprise as the rebels sped into the capital and celebrated in Green Square
with almost no resistance from pro-Gadhafi forces.

Haroun said about 150 men rose up from inside Tripoli, blocking streets,
engaging in armed street fights with Gadhafi brigades, and taking over their
streets with check points.

He said another 200 men were from Misrata.

But why did the armed Gadhafi troops melt away when the rebels drove through?

Fathi Baja, head of the rebel leadership's political committee, said it was all
thanks to a deal cut with the head of the batallion in charge of protecting
Tripoli's gates, the Mohammed Megrayef Brigade.

His name was Mohammed Eshkal and he was very close to Gadhafi and his family.
Baja said Gadhafi had ordered the death of his cousin twenty years ago.

"Eshkal carried a grudge in his heart against Gadhafi for 20 years, and he
made a deal with the NTC — when the zero hour approached he would hand the city
over to the rebels," said Haroun.

"Eshkal didn't care much about politics" said Haroun. "He wanted
to take a personal revenge from Gadhafi and when he saw a chance that he will
fall, he just let it happen."

Haroun said that he didn't trust any of the defectors who left Gadhafi's side
so close to August 20, but Eshkal was living for the day he could pay back
Gaddafi..

Haroun said NATO was in contact with the rebel leadership in Benghazi and were
aware of the date of Operation Mermaid Dawn.

"Honestly, NATO played a very big role in liberating Tripoli — they bombed
all the main locations that we couldn't handle with our light weapons,"
said Harouin.

Analysts have noted that as time went on, NATO airstrikes became more and more
precise and there was less and less collateral damage, indicating the presence
of air controllers on the battlefields.

Targeted bombings launched methodical strikes on Gadhafi's crucial
communications facilities and weapons caches. An increasing number of American
hunter-killer drones provided round-the-clock surveillance as the rebels
advanced.

Diplomats acknowledge that covert teams from France, Britain and some East
European states provided critical assistance.

The assistance included logisticians, security advisers and forward air
controllers for the rebel army, as well as intelligence operatives, damage
assessment analysts and other experts, according to a diplomat based at NATO's
headquarters in Brussels. The diplomat spoke on condition of anonymity due to
the sensitivity of the issue.

Foreign military advisers on the ground provided key real-time intelligence to
the rebels, enabling them to maximize their limited firepower against the
enemy. One U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss
intelligence matters, said the Qatari military led the way, augmented later by
French, Italian and British military advisers. This effort had a multiple
purpose, not only assisting the rebels but monitoring their ranks and watching
for any al-Qaida elements trying to infiltrate or influence the rebellion.

Bolstering the intelligence on the ground was an escalating surveillance and
targeting campaign in the skies above. Armed U.S. Predator drones helped to
clear a path for the rebels to advance.

Baja said as the time for Operation Mermaid Dawn came close to execution, NATO
began to intensify their bombing campaign at Bab al-Azizya and near jails where
weapons were stored and political prisoners were held.

And then the people rose up

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM

If anyone wants to see some of what was going on behind the scenes by Gadhafi's spying network, there's now a wealth of new information captured and being accessed by Rebels and the media in Tripoli (Al Jazeera): click here for report!

I find these reports fascinating.

Here's the teaser quote:

"Deposed Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi had spies at the highest levels of the rebel movement at least until the fall of Tripoli, according to a top-secret document that appears to be a briefing for Libyan intelligence mastermind Abdullah Senussi."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM

"blown to pieces"

Wrong again.   Do you ever think? Airstrikes are a very blunt tool, above all since NATO was trying hard to avoid civilian casualties.    Made especially difficult since Gaddafi had taken to having his soldiers wear the same non-uniforms as the rebels.

And Gadhafi had no problem with such things as putting children on tanks he wanted to protect.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM

akenaton-

"If Col Gadaffi had attempted to do such a thing in Benghazi, his soldiers would have been blown to pieces by NATO air strikes."

I guess that is your way of gracefully conceding that NATO intervention was essential for saving lives? As I recall Gadhafi's soldiers had actually done several forays into Benghazi before the NATO air strikes rolled them back.

But I do agree that there is no guarantee that the government that emerges from the present civil war in Libya will be much of an improvement. But it's a start, a resetting in what I hope is a general trend toward more participatory government worldwide.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 03:20 AM

But these "rights" can be withdrawn as quickly as they are granted.

Very true, which is why the It was all about the oil argument is so ridiculous whether it be Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 02:43 AM

If Col Gadaffi had attempted to do such a thing in Benghazi, his soldiers would have been blown to pieces by NATO air strikes.

Is starving people out not a crime? What about the civilians?

Its all a sick joke......Line up for your oil contracts!

ut these "rights" can be withdrawn as quickly as they are granted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 10:28 PM

American college kid joins Libya rebels for 'vacation' "Just thought I'd come check it out, dudes"

Article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

akenaton-

Some like to argue from a "relative body count" and you gave that a brave try, leaving yourself wide open to being accused of naivety. I personally don't think you're that naive but I can't resist challenging your assertion. Want to wage another round of beer?

Oh, and according to Al Jazeera the Rebels are giving Gadhafi loyalists an extra week to lay down their arms:

The council, known by its acronym NTC, has extended the deadline for surrender of Gaddafi's last bastion Sirte by one week, Mohammad Zawawi, an NTC spokesman, said on Thursday.

"We are not in a rush to get in to Sirte. It has no economic importance and we are not going to lose casualties for it. We can cut supplies and wait, even more than a week," he said.

The talks come alongside a blockade of supplies to the town, an NTC official said.

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdul Hamid, reporting from Nawfalia east of Sirte, said: "This is the consequence of ongoing talks between NTC leaders and tribal leaders in Sirte and another nearby town Harawa.


"The idea is to give time to negotiations which is going on between the tribes in Sirte."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 03:55 PM

Charley.....do you really think the type of government we are likely to see in Libya will be worth the loss of life and destruction?

The Libyan people are not one homogenous body, but many diverse groupings.....their views on Libya's future are likely to be just as diverse.

Only one thing binds them together.....Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

Akenaton-

"without our intervention the protests would have been over long ago, with almost no loss of life."

Now that's a rosy-colored assumption.

But if it brings comfort to you, so be it.

Wonder what how the Libyans assess the situation now that the major battles appear over and done with.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 08:17 AM

'There will be revenge attacks at some point, it is inevitable given the war of extermination that was launched against the people by Gaddafi. The surprising thing is that no one has found any evidence yet for it. This shows exceptional discipline on the part of the revolutionaries to avoid such actions thus far.'

Amnesty International was pretty clear in it's assessment. Today the European Commission released this press release, also warning that black Libyans need protection and noting atrocities on both sides.

It's about time Ghadaffi was ousted but lets at least acknowledge that any of our governments' response to a similar armed uprising at home would have been equally untidy. And rebels would not have been able to make any sort of a stand if Nato (and some Arab states) hadn't stepped in. Thirdly, war is an ugly business, let's not pretend the atrocities are all coming from the one side. Both Amnesty and the EU's call for all those responsible for summary executions and other atrocities to be held accountable is a valid and reasonable position that will help post war healing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I totally disagree with this action.
If there was consistency about american and european interference in other countries internal affairs, it might be more acceptable, but in truth the west does not care one iota about dictators killing their citizens, if they did they would have acted against Mugabe in Zimbabwe,The leader of the Yemen, Pinochet in Chile[ 30 YEARS OR SO AGO].
the west has tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years because it suited them, they do not care a fig about the people of libya
seems I was right

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:47 PM

Congressman Dennis Kucinich and and David Welch, the former assistant secretary of state who served under George W Bush and the man who brokered the deal which restored diplomatic relations between the US and Libya in 2008 are implicated in documents found at Gaddafi's spy HQ in Tripoli.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011831151258728747.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:45 PM

Congressman Dennis Kucinich and and David Welch, the former assistant secretary of state who served under George W Bush and the man who brokered the deal which restored diplomatic relations between the US and Libya in 2008 are implicated in documents found at Gaddafi's spy HQ in Tripoli.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011831151258728747.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

"War of extermination".....give us a break !

We facilitated the "war", without our intervention the protests would have been over long ago, with almost no loss of life.

We have cost Libya an estimated 50,000 dead, an infrastructure in ruins, years of tribal conflict and the promise of a "democratic" Islamic Republic to come.

Haven't we done well!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM

There will be revenge attacks at some point, it is inevitable given the war of extermination that was launched against the people by Gaddafi. The surprising thing is that no one has found any evidence yet for it. This shows exceptional discipline on the part of the revolutionaries to avoid such actions thus far.

What we do have in spades is evidence of Gaddafi forces engaging in massacres in their last few hours of control.

The National Transitional Council has repeatedly warned the fighters against taking revenge against Gaddafi's fighters and only today announced that anyone caught doing so would be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM

Amnesty International : Black Libyans and Sub Saharan Africans at high risk of abuse by Anti Ghadaffi forces

Claudio Cordone, senior director at Amnesty International, said:

    Amnesty International witnessed one man being hit and one dragged out of his hospital bed to an unknown fate. We have to fear for what may be happening to detainees out of the sight of independent observers.

    The NTC must do more to ensure that their fighters do not abuse detainees, especially the most vulnerable ones such as black Libyans and Sub-Saharan Africans" said Claudio Cordone.

    Fighters engaging in abuses should be immediately removed from active duty, pending investigation. All crimes, no matter who committed them, should be investigated and those responsible brought to justice.

From The Guardian, live reports 1.43

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 08:52 AM

Information from an "insider":

"daffi and the poor remaining gang stuck in his big underground compound outside sebha.deepest point 190m with two underground heli hangars and a lot of equippment
two scenarios possible
he try to escape in the next days,he need a lot of luck then.
he fight to the end ,that i prefer."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 08:18 AM

The search for Gadhafi and his sons continues with a confusion of reports, this one from Al Jazeera:

A senior National Transitional Council official in Libya has told Al Jazeera that Saadi Gaddafi, the third son of deposed leader Muammar Gaddafi, is willing to give himself up.

Abdelhakim Belhaj, the NTC's military leader in Tripoli, said on Wednesday that Saddi called him and asked if he could surrender.

In an exclusive interview, Belhaj said the revolutionaries knew for sure where some of the regime leaders were, including unconfirmed reports on where Gaddafi was.

"Gaddafi is now fleeing - and we have a good idea where he is," Ali Tarhouni, a senior NTC minister said earlier, without elaborating. "We don't have any doubt that we will catch him."


There has been speculation that Gaddafi is seeking refuge in Sirte or one of the other remaining regime strongholds, among them the towns of Bani Walid or Sabha.

Al Jazeera's James Bays, reporting from Tripoli said: "We asked him [Belhaj] about the military situation, remaining members of the Gaddafi family, and he said that he believes one of Gaddafi's sons, Saadi, is preparing to surrender.

"According to Belhaj, Saddi doesn't want to leave Libya, he wants to talk to the national council and negotiate his surrender. He thinks he knows the whereabouts of Saddi Gaddafi from the phone call. Also says he believes some senior figures of the government are now ready to surrender, such as the former prime minister.

"Belhaj made a point of saying that any of those who do surrender will be treated properly, and court cases will be held to international norms. Belhaj thought that Muammar Gaddafi is less likely to surrender, but would be treated fairly if he did. He would be held in custody with proper human rights."

But "my sources" confirm that Gadhafi fled to Venezuela at least a month ago.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM

An opinion piece by Elizabeth Pickworth, a journalist from Australia with a postgraduate degree in International Security majoring in Counterterrorism. She is currently based in the Gulf and undertaking research for her PhD. It questions the support for Gaddafi's regime by people who live outside of Libya and the role played by social networking sites in this support.

An excerpt:

"This leads me to question, how can people who have never lived in exile or fear from such a brutal regime support such a monstrous dictator?

To support Gaddafi's regime without ever thoroughly researching the history, his human rights violations and the plight of the Libyan people, is to entirely discredit every single Libyan of their history and struggle.

The people of Libya have risen up and controlled their own destiny, not relied on a dictator to determine their fate. For this they should be commended. Their struggle for freedom has been a bloody battle but now they can claim back their home.

I question if social networking sites were around during the Rwandan and Bosnian genocide or the time of Maoist China, would the narrative be any different and would so many members of the online community still blindly follow such a brutal dictatorship?"

http://english.libya.tv/?p=11257

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:54 PM

Well, you got to give the old man credit. He does get around.

This report from Al Jazeera today:

Muammar Gaddafi's second wife, two of his sons and his daughters have entered Algeria, according to the Algerian foreign ministry.

"The wife of Muammar Gaddafi, Safia, his daughter Aisha, and sons Hannibal and Mohammed, accompanied by their children, entered Algeria at 08:45am local time [0745GMT] through the Algeria-Libyan border," the ministry said in a statement on Monday published by the APS news agency.

However, it gave no information on the toppled Libyan leader, whose whereabouts has remained a mystery since rebels seized control of Tripoli, the Libyan capital, last week.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM

Muammar Gaddafi and his sons Saadi and Seif al-Islam are in the town of Bani Walid south of Tripoli, Italian news agency ANSA said Monday, citing "authoritative Libyan diplomatic sources". ANSA...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:10 PM

Muammar Gaddafi has now joined his family in Algeria.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM

Muammar Gaddafi's wife Safia, his daughter Aisha, and his sons Hannibal and Mohammed,are now in Algeria.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 01:40 PM

The Algerian foreign ministry has just confirmed that Safiya (wife), Aysha, Hannibal and Mohamed Gaddafi entered Algeria at 08:45 am.

Sky News reporting Khamis in a Land rover hit by Hellfire missile ...... Remains being taken away to be tested.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM

This is a blog.....of sorts.

I stand by everything I have said here, regime change by force by foreign power is wrong, and forms a precedent to alter the regime in any country on earth

Phrases like to "save civilian life" uttered by the West are hollow words, given our history in foreign affairs.

We moved in like vultures for personal gain and have handed Libya to the Islamists, just as we have done with Iraq.

Just keep watching Egypt you do-gooders!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 08:05 AM

"Lots of criticism from Gaddafi supporters about NATO's aim being 'regime change'.

All decent people, including NATO, want to see Gaddafi gone and his actions investigated, such as alleged theft of Libyan people's national wealth, alleged massacres in the 'peace years', alleged illegal imprisonment, alleged abuse of human rights, alleged support of international terrorism, alleged murder, etc.

But, helping the Libyan people to get rid of Gaddafi so they can investigate his alleged crimes is not regime 'change'. The people of Libya will be the ones who effect regime 'change' when they vote for a democratic government (they could always vote for Gaddafi of course!).

So, Gaddafi supporters, the real target of your criticsim should be the people of Libya. You should be criticising them for wanting to be free from a tyrant and from the fear of persecution and murder they have endured for decades. Your position really is THAT ridiculous. Rather than attacking change, please spend some time explaining to us all why the Libyan people would be better living in fear.

The biggest irony is, of course, that if you were exercising your freedom to criticise Gaddafi in his Libya you would be seeing the inside of Abu Salim prison by now (if you were lucky)."

Blog post

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 08:03 AM

"Without NATO's help, it would have been much more difficult for the
opposition movement to be as successful as it has been. However, the
notion that the uprising in Libya is somehow just a Western plot to get
oil is not only a gross distortion of the truth; it is a huge slap in
the face to Libyans who have died fighting for freedom. Libyans started
the uprising. And Libya will soon be free not because of NATO or the US
but because of the continuous courage and steadfastness of the Libyan
people.

Moreover, Gaddafi supporters who attempt to portray the National
Transitional Council (NTC)— the Libyan "rebel government"—as a sellout
to Western imperialism completely ignore the fact that Gaddafi sold
himself to the West years ago."

Blog post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:52 AM

How dictators' families live, part 2: video

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:58 PM

This is a nice post for "900" commemorating as it does the recognition by the Arab League of the Rebel Victory in overthrowing Gadhafi (from Al Jazeera):

The Arab League has restored Libya's membership in the bloc, turning over the country's seat to the National Transitional Council (NTC), the rebels' political leadership.

The 22-member League suspended the country's membership in February in protest to Muammar Gaddafi's crackdown on demonstrators.

At a Saturday League session, Mahmoud Jibril, seen as the foreign minister of the National Transitional Council led the Libyan delegation in the meeting.

He urged the Arabs to help rebuild and stabilise his country and asked the League to help in unfreezing Libyan assets abroad.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:54 PM

The video of the hospital was certainly convincing evidence that some 80 people in Tripoli had been shot and dumped there, or dumped there and shot later. The Rebels claim that Gahdafi supporters brought them in and ordered medical personnel out of the hospital.

But we really should resist the desire to rush to judgment with regard to who they were, who shot them, and why they were shot.

Or you could fly over there and do your own research. Good luck!

Gadhafi's home town of Sirte seems to be the current focus point of the Rebel mopping up operation. Hopefully the town will surrender.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:17 PM

There will be revenge attacks at some point, it is inevitable given the war of extermination that was launched against the people by Gaddafi. The surprising thing is that no one has found any evidence yet for it. This shows exceptional discipline on the part of the revolutionaries to avoid such actions thus far.

What we do have in spades is evidence of Gaddafi forces engaging in massacres in their last few hours of control.

The National Transitional Council has repeatedly warned the fighters against taking revenge against Gaddafi's fighters and only today announced that anyone caught doing so would be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:03 PM

It won't easy but I have faith in the will of the Libyan people to build a democratic and civil society after 42 years of oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

I have, I have also read the reports that there was a bit more going on under the guise of shooting mercenaries. 'Ethnic cleansing' was mentioned. I realise it's all the fog of war, it's disconcerting nonetheless, too often situations like this are used for settling old scores and so get in the way of any chance of reconciliation and getting the place back to a semblance of normality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

"....unlikely high percentages of black people killed in the streets"

You haven't heard about the mercenaries apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

Indeed Charley, there are too many stories of scores being settled, extensive evidence of summary executions in the streets, and maybe more disconcerting stories about unlikely high percentages of black people killed in the streets (some here) to feel all is going to be well in Libya any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM

bobad-

There are many such compelling stories of such self-sacrifice, and some of haunting brutality as well.

Hope for reconciliation depends on the ability of the NTC to implement its stated policy. The desire for vengeance and/or plundering mitigates against such reconciliation.

Conditions in abandoned hospitals in Tripoli (not to mention elsewhere) are atrocious if anyone has the stomach to view such videos.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 07:23 AM

The short life and cruel death of Libyan freedom fighter Izz al-Arab Matar

Booker prize-shortlisted Libyan novelist Hisham Matar writes movingly of how his cousin was killed by a sniper in Muammar Gaddafi's compound

Guardian article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM

So, Ronny boy... it APPEARS I owe you a... you know. Don't bother to apologize in future. It would be hollow, and for good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM

Canadian made Aeryon Scout UAV being used in Libya; video

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 02:51 AM

I study the past, and attempt to deduce the future.

Islam does not sit easily with Western style "democracy".

But what we believe to be good for us, is not necessarily good for the rest of the world.....or our long term future.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:52 PM

"the best chance"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM

I would disagree that international oil firms have the most to gain.    The Libyan people have potentially the most to gain--especially after all that time under Gaddafi's klepto-regime. And quite a few of them seem to feel the same way.

They also have the best of chance of any state in the "Arab Spring" to make this possibility a reality--in large part due to their oil wealth, which can in fact fund a prosperous state in which the wealth does not all go to one family.

We'll see if this does happen, but the international community can in fact help.

Despite the classic --and typical--sour attitude of our dear friends on the Left. Who remind me above all of the Li'l Abner character, Joe Blllfitisk--who had a dark cloud following him wherever he went.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:28 PM

Much as I've been cheering the Rebels on in this thread (because of Gadhafi and his gang of plunders), I'm also well aware that this revolution could go sour in a number of ways, and that international oil companies have the most to gain. But maybe, just maybe, there will be a miracle!

The situation in Libya is unique in some ways from the other Middle Easter countries that have had recent revolutions or are still in the throes of public protest and military repression. There will not be a strong professional military as in Egypt. There are oil resources and foreign Libyan funds that can be used to rebuild the country, unlike Egypt, Syria, or Yemen. There is a potential in Libya, as happened in Iraq, for tribal/religious divisions to squander the nation's resources. One hopes that a reconciliation policy that is broadly implemented by the National Transitional Council will keep that in check, but there are lots of feuds and grudges built up over a period of 41 years, not to mention hotheads and politically motivated fringe groups.

I would venture to guess that Libya will do better than Iraq in achieving full recovery in a much shorter period of time. Anyone out there who wants to call my bluff?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

Ake, the population of Libya have emphatically demonstrated that they do not share your admiration of their dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:38 PM

Dunno what happened to that last post.... I'll try it again...

Ron Davies... ""largest corporations on earth".    Don't you leftists ever read anything?    Or are you convinced that every rebel in Libya is also in the pay--or duped by--said corporations?    Why doesn't the idea of throwing off a tyrant's rule ever occur to you?

Especially since you leftists are such past masters at whining that the West always supports tyrants.

Now in Libya the West has aided the Libyans in toppling a tyrant.   But suddenly that's not what the brilliant minds on the Left had in mind after all.

Perhaps they are just determined to whine regardless of what the

West does---they are card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" club.    Regardless of what it is--ain't it awful."
*******************************************************************

Well, Ron, that's not what I said. I said that the US government is controlled by the large corporations and their representatives which are both owned by the British.

Now, can you quote any of my posts in which I said what you say I said? If you can, I will apologize. If not, well, I think you know by now what my comment will be to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

You have rather answered your own question Teribus....be it in a rather insulting way. I have a large problem with anyone killing homosexuals or anyone else for that matter.

"Islam as interpreted by certain Arab sects is not renown for being the most tolerant of religions".....very true, and what are we in the process of doing in the Middle East and North Africa?
Helping to remove strong dictators who keep these people in line and replacing them with something much worse masquerading under the cloak of democracy.

Al Quaeda must be in hysterics over our stupidity and greed.

The allegations were reported on a BBC radio 4 piece early this morning......and the reduced status of women has been commented on regularly,in the aftermath of the Iraq conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 02:58 PM

Ron Davies... ""largest corporations on earth".    Don't you leftists ever read anything?    Or are you convinced that every rebel in Libya is also in the pay--or duped by--said corporations?    Why doesn't the idea of throwing off a tyrant's rule ever occur to you?

Especially since you leftists are such past masters at whining that the West always supports tyrants.

Now in Libya the West has aided the Libyans in toppling a tyrant.   But suddenly that's not what the brilliant minds on the Left had in mind after all.

Perhaps they are just determined to whine regardless of what the West does---they are card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" club.    Regardless of what it is--ain't it awful."