BS: Is Lord of Rings offensive to fundament. too

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:22 AM

Faith, yes, Murray - but that doesn't mean buying into somebody's itemized agenda. Many believers look on faith as a loving relationship with God, not signing onto a laundry list of beliefs.

I'll buy most of your list (with certain nuances added), but not the idea of people being born sinful. Babies are born into a world full of evil - but you'll never convince me that babies are evil in themselves. What you've listed is pretty close to the list in the Fundamentals of Christian Belief - those principles are a pretty good definition of fundamentalist Christianity, but not of ALL Christianity. Some of us have a different perspective, and we pray and go to church and read our Bibles, and do our best to help our neighbor.

But what's rationalization got to do with it?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:21 AM

Re Hitler & mysticism -- There's a fascinating little pamphlet called "I Saw Hitler Make Black Magic," written by the late Thane Walker, a psychic who was asked by Hitler asked to join the mind-magic group at Eagle's Nest in the late 30's (Thane told him to blow it out his moustache, and ended up in Nuremburg prison). The booklet was published by a group in Los Angeles called The Prosperos; copies of it might be around somewhere. By the way, on the other side of the channel during WWII, the British occult gang was fighting for the Allies by doing something akin to what Katherine Kurtz described in her book, "Lammas Night." [Hey, you Fundamentalists, don't look at me -- my granny was a Baptist deacon!]

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:26 AM

Joe, Christianity is all about FAITH. It has NOTHING to do with rationalization.

(Wish I knew how to do Gargoyle's big script. Minus his ubiquitous spelling mistakes, of course)

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:00 AM

Gargoyle, I think it's only "fundamentalist" Mudcatters who would object to a thread like this. It's downright fascinating.

I'm quite relieved to see that others think I don't have to adhere to Murray's definition if I want to call myself a Christian. Hell, even Jesus Christ might have trouble fitting those criteria.

You know, I don't know if it's fair to make a general statement that Fundamentalist or Conservative Christians would object to Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. You could say that certain xenophobic Christians do such-and-such, but I think that's about as far as you can go. There are many Christians who are conservative in their beliefs, but they can be very reasonable in the application of those beliefs to real life. Wherever you go, you're going to find idiots. There are fundamentalist idiots, liberal idiots, Catholic idiots, and pagan idiots - and it's unfair to judge any of these groups by the small number of outspoken idiots who pretend to speak for them.

Yes, there are Christians who have trouble with just about any sort of literature other than the Bible, and they generally object to viewing the Bible as literature. I suppose they're looking for answers to their questions, and aren't comfortable with "grey areas." More exactly, I guess you could say they think they've found answers to their questions, and they have a fear of being "confused by the facts" if they are exposed to other information. As we've witnessed with "Harry Potter" and even with the "Last Temptation of Christ," many of these people won't even view a movie for themselves before they join the protest line.

Do we take these people seriously, or do we simply write them off as "idiots"? I dunno. I hate to write anybody off. Incredibly stupid people can also be incredibly dangerous - but I don't think we need to get parnoid about them. I also like to believe that people I once considered "itiots" can often turn out ot be quite remarkable.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:09 AM

Mr. Art

There are "lyrics" within Tolkien...but I do concur, like you, I could never connect to the muse and turn them into a tune. Something is absent.

However, Rage AGAINST the Storm

There is only ONE DT/MC and if we permit the infidels to over-run its ramparts....there is no other, there is no retreat, there is only Madonna/Cat clones ad-nausium. STAND FIRM!!!

Sincerely,
Your Comrade in Arms
Gargoyle -IDTS

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:41 PM

Mrrzy, Mousethief, et al ....

One thing the Nazis were not (generally) was atheists. They were a very mystical order indeed, especially at the highest levels, convinced that they were ordained to usher in a new civilization, and that they were serving divine power in so doing. Some of Goebbel's last diary entries indicated that as far as he felt, if the Nazi system fell it would mean not only their own destruction, but the end of the entire Cosmos, the collapse of the whole destiny and future of humanity. That's how far out some of those people at the top were in the Third Reich, and that is not atheism. It's a type of deeply religious insanity.

I don't doubt that Hitler had a low view of the conventional Christianity of his day, and considered it weak, but he had his own theories about higher purposes. He was dabbling in some very odd occult stuff, deriving from many ancient traditions, and he somehow mixed it all together in a bizarre way to support his paranoid state of mind, and saw himself as the one who would bring in a superior spiritual civilization (but NOT a kinder, gentler one!). He was envisioning a warrior civilization ruled by the new elite, the Superman, as he saw it, that would crush and enslave the weaker elements in the human race. It was utter madness in the clothing of supposedly divine purpose.

I'm sure that the rank and file of German soldiers for the most part thought of themselves as conventional Christians. They certainly believed they were representing Christian civilization, especially when fighting the officially atheistic Communist forces of the Soviet Union.

Every German soldier in the regular Army had the words "Gott Mit Uns" on his silver belt buckle (God is with us).

Interestingly enough, however, the SS troops do not appear to have had this slogan on their buckles, but a different one! (checked reference materials on World War II, and I can't quite make out what it says on the SS buckles, but it doesn't say Gott Mit Uns) I'd be very curious to know what it did say...the fact is, the SS was expected to be loyal to one and one thing alone...their Fuhrer! (A grisly new religion in the making.)

The intentions of Himmler and Hitler were to eventually replace the Wermacht (regular army) with the SS Divisions. Hitler did not trust the traditional German Army one bit. He considered them to be wedded to outdated concepts of honour, and to be therefore weak and undependable. He was partly right about that (from his point of view)...some of them tried to assassinate him, and it's a pity they didn't succeed.

My own feeling is that the top Nazis were engaged in extreme mysticism and what could be termed "the black arts", and that they combined it willy-nilly with Christianity or any other religious tradition that they could conveniently use to flesh it out and achieve control over the German people. They were spiritually motivated, but in the most dark and destructive manner imaginable. Like all maniacal destroyers, they had convinced themselves that they were doing it for the most laudable reasons...people are great rationalizers.

I would say the same of the Spanish conquistadors, who in the name of Christ (so they said) committed incredible atrocities all over Central and South America...mostly in pursuit of gold.

Anyone can call himself a Christian or call himself an atheist....the question is, what is his hidden agenda? When confronted with a deranged killer, I don't much care at the time whether he calls himself a Christian or an atheist. He's just a deranged killer with pretensions, that's all.

I have always felt that the Lord of the Rings was an allegorical tale reflecting the World War II conflict, and the Dark Lord was definitely in Berlin...and there was another one in Moscow too.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:33 PM

Garg,

I generally work with WHAT IS rather than what the ideal would be. (If that makes me a politician, so be it.) All is often not as I'd prefer it -- same as you. I'd prefer more music threads that I could add to if what they want happens to be what I've got to give back. But if that ain't happening, and there is a topic opened in another thread---rather than CREEPING away from their topic, I, for once, chose to create a separate thread that had a question that had occurred to me as a tangent to the other.
Sir, if you will look at my last post in this very thread, it shows graphically, how I sought to bring music to this discussion with my educational shows in learning situations as well as within this best of all possible Mudcat situations--given the real-world parameters involved.

On that same tack, I have NEVER EVER seen a folkie adaptation for any of the "songs" of J.R.R. Tolkien that spoke to me. Michael Flanders and Donald Swan did an entire LP on Angel Records of Swan's tunes for those lyrics. It didn't make it for me at all, but it may have succeeded admirably where our British friends are concerned. I do wonder what they might've felt about the efforts of Flanders and Swann as regards those lyrics?!?!

I do suspect, Mr. Gargoyle, that it comes down to, "IF YA CAN'T BEAT 'EM, JOIN 'EM." This ain't brain surgery. It's folk music, for Coyote's sake. And goin' with the proverbial flow is much better for my, and maybe your, blood pressure. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: ddw
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:16 PM

Alex,

Don't know if you saw it, but PBS ran a very interesting program about four or five years ago tracing the Christian aspects of the Nazis. They did borrow a lot of imagry from Norse mythology, but they also had "spiritual camps" for their leaders, particularly the SS officers, which were heavily steeped in Christianity. A good portion of the "teaching," it seems, was to use the old saw that "it was the Jews who killed Christ" to justify some of the party's worst atrocities.

It's been quite a while since I saw it, so I'm fuzzy on the details, but their interpretation was that the Nazis were just as based in Christianity as the KKK and some of the more militant militia groups.

I may have that program on tape. I'll look over the weekend and post more on it if I can find it.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:41 PM

What is an "appologist"? Enquiring minds need to know.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:31 PM

When I studied Tolkien our professor let us substitute a song or painting for one of our papers. My roommate played the guitar and we put some of Tolkien's poems to music. "I Sit Beside the Fire" "In Every Wood In Every Spring"

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:22 PM

Perhaps, Arty T.

the question should be.....
Is this the appropriate "web-place" for your question to be?

Such questions two years ago...Would Have offended thee

They always offend me!

Where is the MUSIC connection - come on post it, the great songs etc.?????

However, to answer your question -

The modern world holds a TREMENDOUS debt to Tolken because his personal invitation to C.S. Lewis to attend "philosophical" discussions which, in turn, led to the conversion of one of this centuries greatest Christian philosophers and appologists. Tolken was ALREADY a CHRISTIAN

JOE....another call for a breathalizer on the MC!!

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:01 PM

Constitution?

I don't have a constituion....

But I do see yer point...

;-)

"this country is going to the dog"

May I remind you that the internet is INTERNATIONAL... broaden yer scope eh!

heh!

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:57 PM

Good point, Naemanson, and all too true. This is why I get my neck in a bow when people start saying "Christians say -- " and then they quote somebody like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or someone else of that stripe. Those bozos don't speak for me -- or a lot of other people. When people of any religion or denomination get the half-assed idea that God has called them to be soldiers in a holy war, crusade, jihad, or whatever they want to call it, look out!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:55 PM

I am worried about a trend in the above posts. Several of them have made comments that they don't care what the fundamentalists think. This may be an error. When you don't pay attention to what the fundamentalists are doing you could end up with an Iran or Afghanistan. The religious right includes plenty of people who would happily deny women the right to work (or anything else) if they could somehow circumvent that pesky Constitution. They have their homophobia, their concern about family values and all the proof that they need that this country is going to the dogs if they don't take action. Be very afraid if theyever come up with a charismatic leader who can pull them all together.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:43 PM

Sharon, Alex et al. sorry, but that is how the deal goes down. I personally do not believe I have huge trouble with the whole concept of "belief" , but that is the stark reality of Christianity.

Sometimes I feel that Blaise Pascal had it right, like, "what the hell, you are gambling what, sixty, seventy years against eternity? Hey it's a good bet"

Somehow I just can't make that bet.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:04 PM

I've always thought that Lord Of The Rings was a direct parallel of World War 2. Tolkien denied it but during that War was when he was writing it I believe. Bombs were falling on his London and the Dark Lord, if ever there was one, was in Berlin. Orcs were running all over Europe too. The Nazgul were abroad.

Often I did school folk shows for kids raised during the Viet Nam era, kids whose parents had taught them ALL war was to be avoided at all costs. They'd all read L.O.T.R. I used to show them that there just might be a war that could be, pragmatically and morally, or at least phiolosophically, correct (even if not spiritually good) to participate in. I'd equate those two wars and then sing the "I Hate War And So Does Elanore--and we won't be safe 'til everyone is dead..." song (tune: "Jesse James") and then do "Ruben James" and "Round and Round Hitler's Grave" (tune: "Old Joe Clark") to show how someone (the Almanac Singers) could change their minds in different circumstances when presented with a new reality.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:29 PM

As far as the LOTR movie goes, I've been following the development for 2 years now or so... Some stuff looks really good, other stuff looks horrible!

I'm at the point new where I'm hopefully pessimistic... that is, I suspect that these movies are gonna suck huge, but I really hope I'm wrong...

I also hope that these movies are the S.Morgensternian "Good Parts" version of LOTR I've been waiting for for years and years... LOTR is best described as Litterary BLOAT...

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:23 PM

Well, no matter what they say, Harry Potter has sure got a lot of kids reading instead of veging out in front of the TV. Personally, I think that's a good thing. After seeing some of the promos, I definitely plan to see the movie. Gonna read the books, too. And I'm rereading Tolkien in preparation for The Fellowship of the Ring.

Mark, I think we might just luck out with Lord of the Rings. Just a few minutes ago on my magic electric radio, I heard an interview with a movie reviewer who said he hasn't seen the movie yet, but will be seeing a preview in a day or two. He reminded the fellow who was interviewing him that this movie is not the entire LotR, it's The Fellowship of the Ring, the first of the trilogy. And that it's three hours long. The other two, he said, will be equally long. He also mentioned that he understood that the Tolkien estate had a measure of creative control and was watching all phases of the production to make certain that it stayed true to the concept. Sounds promising.

But one thing no movie could ever duplicate is Tolkien's glowingly beautiful writing. Lord, that man could write!

And Murray, "Christianity is Christianity is (etc., etc., etc.)" just ain't the way it really is. You have undoubtedly noted that there are a lot of very noisy people out there who call themselves "Christians." Most of them haven't a clue as to what it's really all about. And many of them have TV shows. My theological beliefs are composed of a mix of open-mindedness, lots of questions, a sense of history, a large dollop of skepticism, and a firm grip on Joseph Campbell's admonition, "Don't confuse metaphor with fact." I go to a Lutheran church with some regularity. I know a lot of Christians, but not just the ones in the church I go to. Not very many buy into your list (I don't know much of anybody who believes in "Original Sin" anymore — and the rest is metaphor). In the church I go to, one "witnesses" not by running off at the mouth and bending someone's ear, but by deeds. It's a pretty socially active church. Most people there seem to believe that the core of the religion is to be found in Matthew 25:35-40. Look it up (click). But — enough! This dead horse has already been flogged into a pile of bloody hash in other threads.

Back to Art's original question: a few years ago, in the small town northeast of Seattle, a group of flamin' Fundies demanded that several books be removed from local libraries (a common spasm among these folks). One of the books was Huxley's Brave New World. A local reporter asked a couple of spokesman for the group if they had actually read Brave New World. One of them said, "No! I don't read trash like that!" The other said, "I read the book, but I couldn't figure out what Huxley was talking about." Typical. Other than taking individual Bible verses out of context and examining them with a microscope, these folks don't read very deeply. Nevertheless, Harry Potter is in deep doo-doo with them. Wizardry, witchcraft, and all that. But since Tolkien is well known to have been one of a group Christian writers (which included Charles Williams, C. S. Lewis, and others — they called themselves "The Inklings."), on that basis they'll probably leave him alone. Maybe.

One of our former pastors (now retired) used to include long quotations from Lord of the Rings in his sermons. Our current pastor was first in line when the Harry Potter movie opened here (she loved it), and she's eagerly looking forward to seeing The Fellowship of the Ring.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:43 PM

A monkey's what? Inquiring minds want to know.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:36 PM

I thought LOTR was FANTASY. I didn't know that was the same thing as religion, theology, faith, or whatever you want to call it. And I don't give a monkey's whether someone is offended by it. They aren't being forced at gun point to watch it. So what's the big deal? I'm damned sick and tired of people who try to tell me what is and is not good for me.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Jim Krause
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:27 PM

Ah, well, that takes care of everything. Logging out & going home.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:16 PM

Sorry; I don't know why that didn't link directly to the post with the article, but look for my post of 19-Nov-01 - 03:24 PM on that thread.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 03:12 PM

revisionist: Here's a link to that article:

click here

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:57 PM

Another one of these - and I promised Joe I wouldn't - Loved the Hobbits and the stories - could care less about zealots and their opinions -

And Spaw may not be the best farter on the Cat - I DO have a certificate from the VA that I won the runoff contest held in 1994. Or was that runout contest? Farted twinkle twinkle little star while dancing on one foot.

Steve

This sure looks like a Jay Leno lead in - or out

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:50 PM

Only because Gore didn't ask for and receive a recount of the entire state of Florida. See the article I posted on the subject in the "Dumbya's Star Chamber" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:48 PM

Revisionist, you should check more frequently. Bush won the presidency, and the electoral college vote, yes. But he got fewer votes in Florida than Gore.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST,revisionist
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:57 PM

Sorry, but the last time that I checked, bush WON the election.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:55 PM

Walrus, you're right with the slogan. 'Handschar' would be the German spelling of that division, but there might be other spellings in English.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:40 PM

"...Is The Lord Of The Rings Offensive to many fundamentalist Christians the same way Harry Potter seems to be?... "

I do hope so

mousethief,

I thought the slogan was "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer", (surely "Ein Gott" would be contrary to any "Norse" beliefs as the -pre Christian- Norse were polytheistic). As an aside, Himmler, it seems, was in favour of Islam as a religion (he was very much impressed by the SS "Handshar"(sp?) Division {Bosnian/Croat}).

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:43 PM

Whew! I've lost track of this thread. What was the question?

Oh yeah! Is The Lord Of The Rings Offensive to many fundamentalist Christians the same way Harry Potter seems to be?

I can't really say because I only know a few "born-agains" and they are careful not to espouse their mythology around me. Christianity has a lot to answer for, both good and bad, and for me the bad outweighs the good. However, I truly believe in the basic laws provided in the Bible and hold to them as a formula for a good life. Until the "Christians" in this world decide to follow those 10 commandments then I will stay away from any gatherings of that faith.

The LOTR and Harry Potter are entertainment pure and simple. Anyone finding more than that needs to get a life. I read the trilogy to my older daughter when she was young and it is a part of her life that she will always treasure. I have read TLOTR more times than I can count and will be starting my second read of Harry Potter soon. TLOTR uses language to paint some wonderful pictures and clearly tells a story of good versus evil. Harry Potter is fascinating because of the J. K. Rowling has used language to match the style of the books to the age of the characters.

I have read C. S. Lewis and find him imaginative and fun as well. I was always under the impression he was a theologian. What is the official definition of "theologian" anyway? Carl Sagan may have been a popularizer of science but he was also an astronomer.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:18 PM

And if you want to read about the insanity of man Click Here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: wildlone
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:12 PM

If you want to read a realy good book with stories of incest,rape,murder and genocide Click here
dave

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:56 AM

The Nazis were neither Christians nor Atheists (remember "Ein Reich, Ein Gott, Ein Fuehrer"? No? Well that WAS one of their slogans), according to their own propaganda. Hitler despised Christianity as a weak religion, and the official "ology" of the Nazis was the Norse -- although they sided with the giants and not the gods!

CS Lewis was NOT a theologian, and was the first to admit it. He was a "popularizer" of Christianity the way Carl Sagan or Stephen Jay Gould is a "popularizer" of astronomy and biology, respectively. By profession he was an english professor.

Murray, if that is your definition of Christian, then count me out, because I don't buy the "conceived in sin" thing. That's a distortion of the teaching of the early church made by Augustine and perpetuated by Anselm and then the Reformers. If you're looking for a set of "fundamentals" to determine the content of Christian belief, why not use the one the Church herself wrote, 1700 years ago? I refer of course to the Nicene Creed.

As for LOTR, or Narnia, or Harry Potter, I don't see how you can read any of them and come away with a desire to be evil or to reject God. They all clearly delineate between good and evil, and come down quite clearly on the side of Good.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:42 AM

I don't object to people thinking I'm going to Hell, I just don't want them to create another one here on earth for the living.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:34 AM

ar ar ar!

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:27 AM

Well Sharon, either place you go, if you go on Delta it doesn't matter, 'cause you'll change in Atlanta.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM

Beats me, spaw. I'm no longer in the business of predicting whether someone goes to heaven or hell; I gave that up quite a while ago!

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:11 AM

So Sharon, where does that leave a guy like Ol' Man Rafferty? He goes to church and has one of them fish on his Buick, but I don't think he was imbued with Christian kindness in his treatment of Paw.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:04 AM

Murray says: "Christian is Christian is Christian"

Well, Murray, the fundamentalists (or fundamentalist-pretenders, as John Hardly called them in another thread) think so, and think that anyone who disagrees with the list you made is going to burn in hell (see Murray's post of Nov. 28, 8:14pm, above). But Christians of many denominations would disagree with one or more of your articles of faith, particularly (D) the Second Coming issue; even among the fundiees, the debate rages as to whether Christ is to come at the beginning, middle or end of the End Times, and whether judgment occurs then or upon one's individual demise.

Even (C) the acceptance of Christ as Savior means different things to different denominations. And don't even get me started on (A) the "original sin" vs. pure-of-soul-newborns issue.

By the way, some people who consider themselves to be Christians do have an "easy, feelgood, touch-feely, hey let's all be pals together, luvya babe system of beliefs."

And some Christians would disparage a deathbed-conversion plan as a "fire escape"!

Sharon (an ex-fundie born-again-heathen)

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM

Ohmygawd....THANK YOU JOHN!!!! Not for the compliment, although I do honestly appreciate it, but for that image of "curry breath mouth to mouth"...........oh man, that one is definitely usable!!!

Thanks for all John...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:53 AM

catspaw49, enough of this Magnetic Arse-Healing Ring stuff. It imperils people who live alone like me. I laughed so long and loud I nearly lost my breath. My Sri Lanken neighbour came over thinking I was being done away with. The thought of ol' curry breath doing mouth-to-mouth on me was enough to revive me but I nearly carked it.
And De Silva has gone home thinking there's something sus' about a bloke who sits in front of a monitor gasping for breath.

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:10 AM

What is heaven? being one with the creator. What is Hell? being apart from the creator. All else is commentary.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:05 AM

I thought the Nazis were atheists, not Christians!

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Grab
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:50 AM

I'll second Clinton. Who cares? They are the minority by some way, so they have _no_ rights over the rest of us. Sod'em (and Gomorrah too, if they want...)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: sophocleese
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:12 AM

I think communist and feminist critiquies of L.O.R might find more problems than fundamentalist Xtian critiques. I enjoy the books. I have the tapes of BBC production which I love to listen to and which my children have heard and enjoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 07:34 AM

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:32 AM

The Shire sounds like 50s America? In that case 50s America must have been distorted out of recognition in the films and books and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:21 AM

I'm offended by thread titles that are so confusing that they pique my interest, even when I'm trying to get some work done. I refuse to read Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter though, just so I can have an informed opinion. I DO wish I had some of your meds tho' Spaw. These carrot sticks aren't makin' it!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:14 PM

I regularly listen to WAVA in the Washington D.C. area (for those not here, it is a Christian radio station). I do so not only because I enjoy some of what they broadcast, but also to keep a finger on the pulse of the extremists.

I heard that many in the Fundamentalist corner have no issue with J.R.R. Tolkiens work, as he was himself a (in their words) "devout" Christian. On "The Don Croh Show", they had a guest who wrote a book called "Harry Potter and the Bible". Evidentally, this man makes the comparisons and somehow justifies why Tolkien is better than Harry Potter. Why Tolkiens wizards are better than those in the Harry Potter books I do not personally know (as I will not spend the money to buy this book, and do not myself see a great distinction), but there it is. Same thing for C.S. Lewis. He was a Christian, and so his use of magical creatures, witches, and sorcery is somehow OK as he was himself a Christian.

I can tell you that I personally know at least one Pagan who went that path partially *because* of "The Chronicles of Narnia", but that will never make the airwaves.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 10:58 PM

Looks to be a great pic! As to the Fundy's.......Well, Paw and Cletus are real good Christian old boys and I don't think they'd find a thing wrong with it. Matter of fact they might even add a chapter or two, having had some "Ring" experience with the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring. Ya' see.................

Paw's flatulence when combined with his passion for 'shine and hot wings used to be a big problem for him whenever his roids would flare up....so to speak...and it got to the point that little rubber donut pillows and Preparation H just weren't doing the job anymore. Clete's 6th wife was into all the weird and wacky cures so Cletus was always coming to Paw with his suggestions that he'd heard from her. When Cletus told Paw about acupuncture, he disappeared for about two weeks and I'll be damned if anyone could find him.

The Reg Boys too had their share of wacky cures for everything from the Great White North of Canada, but most of them involved bear grease and other vile and foamy liquids. Then it happened. The whole lot of them were watching my TV down in the den one night and had been subjected to at least nine hours of infomercials while they slugged down Iron City. I had learned from experience to unplug the phone and hide my credit cards on these nights which only took place when Karen was gone. I'm still paying for that quonset hut in the Aleutian Islands and I have the complete collection of Pan Flute Favorites so I have learned, albeit slowly. I think the one that finally got me was the "Great Michigan Getaway Weekend" which they bought and gave to Karen and I for an anniversary present. It was a month before I found out that they had billed it to my Visa and when we went for "rest and relaxation" in beautiful Michigan, it turned out to be clapped out motel run by a Pakistani in downtown Flint, just across from a closed GM factory.

I guess it was about 5:30 AM when Cletus woke me up and said they had the cure for Paw's hemorrhoids. This was more than I wanted or needed to know at 5:30 so after verifying that it wouldn't cost me anything, I said have at it and went back to sleep. When I woke up about 7 I had one of those vague feelings of dread. You know what I mean? Nothing was wrong that I could think of and yet I just felt the world was going to come after me that day. It turned out to be Old Man Rafferty instead....but I'll come to that.

The "boys" arrived back at my place about noon having already left when I woke at 7. They were lugging some huge electric motors into my garage and looking about for tools when I walked in and asked what the hell was going on. Cletus then launched into their "cure" and the reasoning behind it. It seems they had watched an infomercial about the "healing power of magnetism" and saw immediately that this was the way to fix Paw's 'roids. Slowly it all began to come together for me and I began to wonder how in the hell these guys could even remember how to breathe!

In any case, they'd picked up the motors from out back of Bernie's Electrical Supply and were now going to remove the large magnets inside. They idea was to cut a slit in Paw's rubber donut, insert the magnets, and then duct tape the thing back together. I noticed that Buford had an old jockstrap (with cup) that they evidently were going to use to strap the magnets to Paw's ass, again using liberal amounts of duct tape. Listening to Cletus explain all of this and their newfound theory made me begin to question my own existence, as though I really didn't exist in the world I had come to know, but was simply a bit player in a leftover Rod Serling story.

Things started going downhill pretty quickly as the magnets were removed and now were flying across my garage, affixing themselves to various steel things....like my van, my lawnmower, my golf clubs, and a little steel reinforced concrete rabbit that someone had once given us as a joke. I figured that I was going to be better off if they'd finish up somewhere else so I suggested they take all the stuff and head for the pleasant little roadside picnic area on the edge of the village where they could finish rigging Paw up and with any luck, I'd never know anything more about it. After removing the magnets, scratching the hell out of my van, breaking off the head of a 5 iron and the left ear of the rabbit, they left. The picnic area was only about a half mile off, just a bit down Rt.664 and I told them to let me know how it all worked out.

Curiosity is a terrible thing sometimes and about an hour later I grabbed my Weimaraner and his leash and set out as though I were just walking the dog. As I turned on 664 I saw the Boys all walking towards me from the little picnic grove. Paw's ass seemed to be a bit large and he was walking funny, but from a distance I could tell they must have done a good job circling his ass in magnets because outside of a slight limp and a big bulge at the rear of his bibs, Paw looked pretty normal. Then it happened. Trailing the others, Paw walked past Old Man Rafferty's mailbox, a new heavy duty steel one to foil the kids with cars and bats. He first slowed, stopped, then flew backwards and before you could say "dumbfuck" he was hanging from his ass on the mailbox. Ol' Man Rafferty was washing his aging Electra deuce and a quarter and looked up to see what was happening. By that time, Cletus, Buford, and the Reg Boys all were tugging on either Paw or Rafferty's mailbox and though they got him off the mailbox was smashed in and the pole was a goner.

Well I tell you, Rafferty came flying down the drive, gravel spitting up from his shoes, and swearing a blue streak. Paw was laying about 10 foot up the drive where he'd landed after the force of being ripped from the mailbox sent him sailing through the air. Rafferty bent over him and started yelling in his face and Paw was trying to stand up but being weighed down by the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring. I got up there and tried to get Rafferty to calm down some as the others stood around looking bewildered. Rafferty started blaming me for allowing such "dumbass shitkickers" to stay here and how I should let them rot somewhere else. Before he could say another word, things continued to deteriorate. Paw had gotten to his feet about 15 feet from the Buick and there was a loud clanging thump as one of the hubcaps flew off and affixed itself to Paw's rump. Rafferty grabbed the hubcap and started pulling for all he was worth swinging Paw round and round in a circle. The hubcap folded and broke loose and Paw landed by the side of the road while Rafferty began to rage about his rump-sprung hubcap and twisted mailbox. I got out my checkbook and with a stern look to Cletus asked how much this would cost to keep from calling the police. The sight of my checkbook calmed Rafferty down and my Weimaraner had gone over to the side of the road and was licking Paw's face. Rafferty calculated a sum which I figured was enough to buy a new set of tires and an exhaust system for the Buick and build a brick mailbox, while forcing me nearer to bankruptcy.

Cletus and the rest were circled around me as I handed Rafferty the check and when I turned to go, I saw Paw had gotten to his feet again and was bent over stroking Jaeger's head. The dog has always had a soft spot for Paw and when I whistled for him he reluctantly came back up the drive. Bending over to pick up his leash, I heard Cletus say, "Aw Sheeitt!" Right then I couldn't imagine how things could get worse, but I looked up just in time to see Paw lifted from his feet and his ass attach to the exhaust stack of a passing Peterbilt. I watched as the truck roared off, Paw flailing around and in a blind spot where the driver couldn't see him, and the dumbass Reg boys waving "bye-bye" as the Pete rounded a curve down by the Hopewell place.

We found Paw at the truckstop at Rt.37 and I-70 where the driver had stopped for fuel. When we arrived, the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring was nowhere to be seen and Paw was sitting on a bag of ice trying to cool the burns from riding 27 miles on an exhaust stack. But I tell you what.....Perhaps it was the scar tissue from the burns that did it, but Paw hasn't had trouble with 'roids since then. Maybe there is something to the power of magnetism and the Great Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring

Spaw