BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 08:47 PM

If you were to put that in ordinary script instead of italics and not in bold, pdq, it would be a hell of a lot easier to read...


Dickey, yes I KNOW you believe Ahmadinejad wants to wipe Israel off the map. I don't know if that's true or not. It may be. I'm sure he'd be delighted if Israel simply disappeared (for any reason), but I'm not at all sure that he intends to risk his own country's national survival by attempting to make that happen with a military attack.

He'd have to be insane. The Israelis have a hell of a lot of atomic bombs. Now, the USA propaganda mill ALWAYS characterizes foreign leaders whom they are planning to fight soon as being "insane", but that's mostly just the usual propaganda. It's designed to get Americans to support military action.

Ahmadinejad never made a statement saying that the nation of Iran intended to wipe Israel off the map by a military attack. He quoted an old statement by the Ayatollah Kohmeini expressing the expectation that Israel would one day be brought down (the implication: by Divine power, by destiny). That statement was an expression of the Ayatollah's faith in his idea of Allah (God). It was not a declaration that IRAN was going to be the force that made it happen. It was wishful thinking on the Ayatollah's part...just like the wishful thinking that the Americans and Israelis do ALL the time that the Islamic Revolution in Iran will fail and be swept off the page of history. They think it wishfully every day!

My expectation? Both the present Israeli system AND the present Iranian system AND the present USA system and all present systems will AlL be swept off the page of history eventually. After all, Rome is gone, aren't they? All powers have their day, and they have their ending.

By saying that, I am obviously not threatening to attack the USA, Iran, or Israel. I am simply making a philosophical sort of statement about the mortality of human systems of government.

The Ayatollah didn't like Israel. He was expressing the hope and faith that God will bring the Israeli system to an end. Don't the Israelis (the religious ones, that is) pray every day for Jehovah to bring Hezbollah and the Iranian Ayatollahs to an end? You tell me how that is any different.

It is inevitable, Dickey, that you and I will both see the info we already agree with as "factual" and the info we already disagree with as "false propaganda". That's how the human mind works. ;-)

I see no solution to this difference in opinion, but at least we're both getting lots of practice improving our typing skills, right?

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: pdq
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 07:22 PM

Dickey,

That article is a bit hard to read at that site. Here is the text:



Behind the Sunni-Shi'ite Divide

Thursday, Feb. 22, 2007 By BOBBY GHOSH / BAGHDAD

It has come to this: the hatred between Iraq's warring sects is now so toxic, it contaminates even the memory of a shining moment of goodwill. On Aug. 31, 2005, a stampede among Shi'ite pilgrims on a bridge over the Tigris River in Baghdad led to hundreds jumping into the water in panic. Several young men in Adhamiya, the Sunni neighborhood on the eastern bank, dived in to help. One of them, Othman al-Obeidi, 25, rescued six people before his limbs gave out from exhaustion and he himself drowned. Nearly 1,000 pilgrims died that afternoon, but community leaders in the Shi'ite district of Khadamiya, on the western bank, lauded the "martyrdom" of al-Obeidi and the bravery of his friends. Adhamiya residents, for their part, held up al-Obeidi's sacrifice as proof that Sunnis bore no ill will toward their Shi'ite neighbors across the river.

Eighteen months on, one of the men who jumped into the river to help the Shi'ites says al-Obeidi "wasted his life for those animals." Hamza Muslawi refuses to talk about how many he himself saved, saying it fills him with shame. "If I see a Shi'ite child about to drown in the Tigris now," says the carpenter, "I will not reach my hand out to save him." In Khadamiya, too, the narrative about Aug. 31 has changed. Karrar Hussein, 28, was crossing the bridge when the stampede began. Ask him about al-Obeidi, and his cheerful demeanor quickly turns sour. "That is a myth," hisses the cell-phone salesman. "That person never existed at all. He was invented by the Sunnis to make them look good." Rather than jumping in to help, he claims, the people of Adhamiya laughed and cheered as Shi'ites drowned.

The bridge connecting the two neighborhoods is now closed for security reasons--just as well, since the chasm between them is too wide for any man-made span. Mortars fired from the cemetery behind Abu Hanifa, a Sunni shrine in Adhamiya, have caused carnage in the bustling markets of the western bank. There are more mortars going in the opposite direction; on a recent afternoon, the sound of an explosion on the Sunni side of the river is greeted with cheers by worshippers at a Shi'ite shrine in Khadamiya.

Those cheers are just one sign of how much venom has seeped into Sunni-Shi'ite relations in the year since their simmering conflict was brought to a boil by the bombing of Samarra's golden-domed shrine. The bloodlust is no longer limited to extremists on both sides. Hatred has gone mainstream, spreading first to victims of the violence and their families--the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have lost loved ones, jobs, homes, occasionally entire neighborhoods--and then into the wider society. Now it permeates not only the rancorous political discourse of Baghdad's Green Zone but also ordinary conversations in homes and marketplaces, arousing a fury even in those who have no obvious, pressing grievance. Neither Muslawi nor Hussein has suffered personal loss, but they are relatively able to tap into the same loathing that motivates the Shi'ite militias and Sunni jihadis. "The air has become poisoned [by sectarianism], and we have all been breathing it," says Abbas Fadhil, a Baghdad physician. "And so now everybody is talking the same language, whether they are educated or illiterate, secular or religious, violent or not."

Worse, there are clear signs that Iraq's malice has an echo in other parts of the Middle East, exacerbating existing tensions between Sunnis and Shi'ites and reanimating long-dormant ones. In Lebanon, some Hizballah supporters seeking to topple the government in Beirut chant the name of radical Iraqi cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose militia is blamed for thousands of Sunni deaths. In Sunni Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt, sympathy for Sunnis in Iraq is spiked with the fear, notably in official circles, of a Shi'ite tide rising across the Middle East, instigated and underwritten by an ancient enemy of the Arabs: Iran.

For those who follow Iraq from afar, the daily stories of sectarian slaughter are perplexing. Why are the Shi'ites and Sunnis fighting? Why now? There are several explanations for the timing of the outbreak of hostilities, each tied to a particular interpretation of how events unfolded after the fall of Saddam Hussein: flawed American postwar policies, provocation by foreign jihadis, retaliation by militias like al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, the ineptitude of Iraqi politicians and, lately, Iranian interference. But the rage burning in people like Muslawi and Hussein has much deeper and older roots. It is the product of centuries of social, political and economic inequality, imposed by repression and prejudice and frequently reinforced by bloodshed. The hatred is not principally about religion. Sunnis and Shi'ites may disagree on some matters of dogma and some details of Islam's early history, but these differences are small--they agree on most of the important tenets of the faith, like the infallibility of the Koran, and they venerate the Prophet Muhammad. Despite the claims by some Arab commentators, there is no evidence that Iraq's Shi'ite extremists are trying to convert Sunnis, or vice versa. For Iraqi fighters on both sides, "their sect is nothing more than a uniform, a convenient way to tell friend from enemy," says Ghanim Hashem Kudhir, who teaches modern Islamic history at Baghdad's Mustansiriya University. "What binds them is not religion but common historical experience: Shi'ites see themselves as the oppressed, and they see Sunnis as the oppressors."

Sunnis and Shi'ites are fighting for a secular prize: political domination. The warring sects, says a U.S. official in Baghdad, "are simply communities ... striving to gain or regain power." Without an understanding of the roots of the rage that drives people like Muslawi and Hussein, any plan--American or Iraqi, military or political--to stabilize Iraq is doomed to failure. And that power struggle in Iraq, whether it draws neighboring countries into a wider sectarian conflict or forces a realignment of alliances, has the potential to radically alter the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 07:06 PM

There is a good article in Time Mag this week about why the Shia and the Sunni hate each other.

There is an online version here

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 06:17 PM

Where are the threats from Israel?

When Iranian trained supported and armed Hezbollah attacks Israel, Iran attacks Israel.

Ahmadinejad did not say "that Iran has no intention of attacking Israel"

Iran says it has no intention to attack Israel despite a call by its president to have it "wiped off the map".

Iran's foreign ministry said Tehran respected the UN charter and had never used or threatened to use force.

But it also rejected a UN Security Council statement condemning President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over his comments.

An Iranian TV channel broadcast the remark for the first time on Saturday, saying reaction to it was coordinated by Israel in a plot against Iran.

Mr Ahmadinejad made the controversial comments during a speech to students in Tehran on Wednesday.

They were seen by the outside world as a threat and the latest reaction from Iran is an effort to calm the outcry, says the BBC's Frances Harrison in Tehran."

Propaganda is bullshit like that wacko book you've been promoting.The man said he wants Israel wiped off of the map and I believe him.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 05:31 PM

They're preaching to a different choir, so they use rhetoric that suits their audience.

Besides, we have a mass media in the west that searches through thousands and thousands of things that are said by thousands of Muslim spokesmen, barely mentions (if at all) the more reasonable things they say, but makes a major story out of anything really inflammatory they can find in those thousands of statements.

Why? To create a certain impression. That's how propaganda is done.

An important Iranian politician recently made a point of saying officially on the record that Iran has no intention of attacking Israel. You don't hear that being repeated much in our media, do you?

It wouldn't suit the unspoken agenda, which, in my opinion, is to get the American public so scared of Iran that they will support a pre-emptive strike on that country.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 04:59 PM

Well, it firewater is not PC, how about some beads and trinkets? Blankets and hatchets with a built in pipe?

I guess it is old fashioned to think that if someone threatens to kill you, it might affect your attitude toward them.

I haven't seen any speeches made by the Jews wanting to drink the blood of Muslims or to wipe Iran off of the map.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 03:26 PM

Jeezus H. Christ! LOL! You DO love to rush in where angels fear to tread, don't you, Dickey? You made me laugh out loud that time with the comment about the 50,000 Indians and how you would deal with it...it was so totally unexpected.

You ought to start doing a talk radio show or something, cos I think you would get a whole lot of attention, and probably become famous (or infamous?) for some of these off the cuff politically insensitive remarks you make. ;-) Kind of a bit like Howard Stern, but not so vulgar.

Well, anyway, I will say this. I think you're a bit biased in favor of Israelis for some reason as opposed to Muslims, and you're not giving the Muslims an entirely fair assessment. I don't know why that is, but I guess it probably has to do with the TV stations and stuff you've been tuning into for the last few decades.

I agree that there are many Muslims who do not "live and let live", and yes, that is a very big problem. I think there are some Israelis who also suffer from that flaw, in that they have an attitude that they are totally superior to Muslims, a specially "chosen people" of God, and destined to dominate that region of the world.

Either way, it leads to trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

LH: If 50,000 indians came for my property, I would be in deep shit. But I could probably calm them down with a wagon load of fire water.

The Jews have a policy of seizing surrounding land as prevention from another attack. They gave back all Egyptian land in return for peace. They are at peace with Jordan and Egypt.

Israel manufactures clothing and sends it to Jordan where Muslim women do the finishing work and the goods are marked made in Israel. They live and let live. I think it is the Muslims who are not willing to live and let live.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

Dickey - You're a racist, idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:25 PM

At the risk of being called an idiot, I think the Ashkenazim are the lighter skinned narrower nosed, more aristocratic, european Jews while the Sephardim (from shepard I imagine) are the darker skinned farmer types.

No doubt that the lighter skin and narrower nose was from miximg Jewish blood with Caucasian blood.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM

The "real owners" of any land are the people living on it at present who were born there, and grew up on that land as children, as far as I'm concerned. I don't buy the concept that descendants of an ancient people who lived on a land thousands of years ago can legitimately come from some other place entirely and claim that land and take it from people who grew up there in present times.

I consider that outrageous and unacceptable....and so did the Arabs when European Jews came into Palestine and carved out a new nation-state for themselves.

You have to ask how you would react if 50,000 Indians from Oklahoma came into your home state, Dickey, claimed it in the name of their ancestors, and starting a shooting war to take it for themselves and found a new Indian nation there.

You wouldn't like it. ;-) You'd fight them.

However, if they succeeded and actually won that war...and then you waited a generation or two....well, then I'd have to say that their kids who grew up there should have a say about the place...because it would be their natural home by then. You follow my reasoning? Everyone has a right to stay on the land he was born on. He doesn't have a right to invade the land someone else was born on and take it in the name of his ancestors.

"Live and let live" should be the credo of human society on this planet...not "survival of the strongest".

You are right that a lot of shit is stirred up by the outsiders who attack Israel. Absolutely. A lot of shit is also stirred up by Israel overreacting to such attacks with things like the 2 invasions of Lebanon...and by Israel occupying and settling Arab lands outside their 1948 borders.

I'm saying both sides are greatly at fault for their mutual provocation of each other.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 12:42 PM

"My understanding is that there are still lots of Muslims, Christians and Jews living peacefully in Israel. It is the outsiders that stir the shit..."

This I agree with but I think you have to learn the difference between Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 03:31 AM

LH: Suppose your were an Acadian and were driven out by some foreign power. You didn't feel right and were being prosecuted in your new land because people didn't want you there, You barely missed being sent to an extermination camp. See fiddler on the roof.

You returned to your ancestors home land and were attacked by the "real" owners of the land? suppose those owners were from the same ancestors as you but they suddenly adopted some new and improved religion and decided they were better than acadians?

Also keep in mind that the Muslims were Jews back in Biblical times and they suddenly declared themselves better than Jews.

My understanding is that there are still lots of Muslims, Christians and Jews living peacefully in Israel. It is the outsiders that stir the shit because they are put up to it by the likes of the late Arafat. Look at how much money that asshole raked off for himself while the Pallestinians suffered.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:44 AM

Yes, I follow your reasoning, Dickey. The trouble is, things get very complicated as time goes by, and many innocent people end up suffering on both sides because of previous historical situations that they were not personally a part of.

Example: You are quite right that the Indians had the moral high ground when the whites arrived from Europe, because it was their (the Indians') land that was being invaded. Likewise, the Indians had the moral high ground as the whites moved westward into Indian lands. All well and good.

However...consider the plight of any number of ordinary white settlers in Virginia, let's say, (or anywhere along the frontier) a few generations after the first whites arrived, when a war party of Indians comes storming out of the woods and scalps and tortures their family members and burns their cabins down and commits the most hideous atrocities upon them. (Have you read some of the books about stuff like that? It was almost unbelievable what marauding Indians did to their captives....just as it was almost unbelievable what the whites sometimes also often did to Indian villages.)

Now...those white people who were being raided weren't recent immigrants from somewhere else. They were born on that land. Therefore, they naturally felt that that was their natural home...and it was, at that point. They were not Europeans any longer. They were not immigrants. They were North Americans. As such, they were just as outraged at being invaded and slaughtered as the Indians were...and for precisely the same reasons.

And in both cases they saw the "other guys" as inhuman monsters for attacking them in that fashion when all they were trying to do was live from one day to the next and feed their families.

You see how misunderstandings can arise, hatred can arise, and both sides feel totally justified and feel that the other is wrong?

Now move it to the Middle East. You have a situation there where BOTH sides think they were there first! The Jews say: "Well, we were there back in Biblical times." The Muslims say: "So were we! We've always been here."

They're both right about that. ;-) And they are both not listening with any real attention to what the other one is saying.

You go far enough back and they were BOTH from the same group of Semitic people in that part of the world in ancient times! So it's a family quarrel over an ancient split into two (actually three) religious paths. Jewish-Christian-Muslim. It's downright ridiculous...like the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.

Now you said, "Muslim claims Israeli's land is really his and constantly attacks Israeli."   Ah! But there were Jews, Christians, AND Muslims all living in Palestine in reasonably good harmony for some considerable time before the modern state of Israel was formed in 1948. The war started AFTER European and other foreign Jews from elsewhere arrived, committed terrorist acts upon the British administration and the Muslim population in that region, and carved out a new country for themselves by force of arms. And yes, terrorist acts were committed then by both sides. No doubt about it.

But can you see that in 1948 it was the European Jews who were the equivalent of Spanish conquistadors or European colonists of North America...arriving on a foreign shore and claiming the land in the name of some grand vision they had...against the will of most of its locally existing inhabitants?

So as far as I'm concerned...in 1948 the Muslims had the moral high ground, because they were being invaded by a bunch of Europeans who happened to be Jews. ;-) The Muslims were the "Indians" in that scenario. Like the Indians they reacted to extreme violence with extreme violence of their own.

But hey...some time has gone by since then, and as usual the situation has grown far more complicated than it was in 1948. Any Jewish person born in Israel since 1948 is not a foreigner to that land. He's not an immigrant or an invader. He will feel a deep connection to the place and will defend it as his homeland...and so he should, in my opinion! Everyone's true home is the land he was born on.

So now you have a situation where both the Palestinians and the Israel-born Israelis have an equally valid claim to that land, as far as I'm concerned, to believing that that area is their homeland.

It is obviously necessary to compromise in order to settle something like that. Everybody has to get something, but nobody is going to get it all.

The compromise I would suggest is this:

1. Israel returns the occupied lands outside its 1948 borders, and agrees not to invade any neighbouring country or bomb any neighbouring country. They henceforth engage in only genuinely defensive military actions against an outside attack, not in offensive operations outside their own borders.

2. The Palestinians receive a homeland that is adequate to allow them to function reasonably well as a modern nation. I would suggest the west bank of Jordan and some areas around where Gaza is, but it would take some thought as to how to set it up so it could work. (and it would take some generosity...ha! ha!...from some of the Arab states in donating land)

3. The various Muslim militias agree not to attack Israel as long as conditions 1 and 2 are met.

4. The various Muslim nations agree the same...not to attack Israel as long as conditions 1 and 2 are met.

5. A narrow international buffer zone be established around Israel and manned by strong and well-armed U.N. forces to secure the Israeli AND the Arab borders from outside attack. If any attack is launched by any party (Israel included), then the U.N. members provide significant military response against it, and treat it as an outlaw.

Equality of rights all around, okay? Everyone gets treated with respect, and everyone has to act responsibly or pay the consequences.

Heh! And you know what? There's not a dog's chance in hell that that will ever happen. I'll tell you why. The Israelis and Arabs have no respect for one another. They BOTH think they can win, and they both intend to. They have no intention of meeting the other guy halfway. And the world in general (meaning the U.N. and all its members) is far too self-interested and too lacking in unity to take the sort of courageous stand I am suggesting above). Furthermore, the Israelis are too proud and too lacking in trust of the U.N. or anyone else out there to agree to anything that limits their free rein to attack whomever they wish when they want to.

So it won't happen.

Pretty sad situation. You cannot divide that dispute into "good guys" on one side and "bad guys" on the other, Dickey. You just can't. There are completely innocent ordinary people on BOTH sides who feel that they are honestly defending their homeland (cos they were BORN there) and resisting a heartless and criminal aggressor. And you know what????

They're both right about that!!!

Their failure of vision is this: they don't realize that the "other guy" is just the same as them. They see only their own pain.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 01:47 AM

LH: So if all 3 parties are committing terror, it all cancels out and terror is not a factor. Stick with me now. So the determining factor is who is trying to do what to whom.

White man wants Indian lands=bad. Indian doesn't want to give up lands=reasonable. So white man was wrong. I agree. Indian was there first.

Israeli wants his own country and wants to be left alone. When attacked, Israelis fight back fiercely. Good or bad?

Muslim claims Israeli's land is really his and constantly attacks Israeli. Good or bad? Note that Muslim has at least 100 times more land than Israeli and the Israeli was there first.

I do agree that the Israelis should vacate those settlements in Palestinian territory or there will never be a chance for peace. Those settlement are wrong.

I have no love for Jews but I have even less for Muslim extremist who will attack other neighboring countries when the Jews are taken care of. I haven't been threatened by any Jews. I haven't heard any Jews talk about drinking blood or burning people in their fury or anything like that.

The American Government wants peace in the midddle east.

Now Dianavan can turn her bullhorn up to full blast, ball up her fist in anger and attack me with her anti Semitic, anti US, pro Muslim rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

Dickey - Yes, I believe any assessment of Hezbollah by Israel is biased. By the same token, any assessment of Israel by Hezbollah is biased. Of course it is.

Your defensiveness clouds your thinking. Step back a bit and try to see the situation from the perspective of someone who really does not have a stake in it one way or another. You might be able to come up with an objective, unbiased opinion.

In fact, Dickey, thats what most of the world is doing. Most of the world does not give a rat's ass about Hezbollah or Israel. They don't really care who "wins". What is important to the objective viewer is that a peaceful solution is found for a hateful situation.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:19 AM

You see...those people are in a war. It's a war that has been going on ever since 1948, and it has many, many chapters, and many factions are involved. They all arm themselves in whatever way they can and they attack in whatever way they think will work best.

They all regard their opponents as "terrorists". They all regard themselves as justified.

The main difference is this: the powerful (America and Israel) can attack with big air forces, navies, and modern mechanized armies...as well as by more covert and shadowy means. The weaker (the opponents of America and Israel) do not have that luxury. So they attack by what you would regard as "sneaky" means...

Well, that's always what the militarily much weaker side does in this kind of protracted conflict. They do it because to do otherwise would not work.

Example: The Irish came out and fought in the open in the rebellion in Dublin during the WWI years. It didn't work. The British Army crushed them. They then turned to what is called "terrorism" and attacked by stealth...wherever they felt it would hurt the most. That did work. They eventually got the British out of most of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM

What you say is true, Dickey, but don't forget one thing.

In the view of a lot of Muslims, the Israelis and Americans are terrorists. And they (Americans & Isrealis) have certainly demonstrated over and over again that they can kill a lot more people than the Muslim terrorists can, because they have a lot more firepower.

In my view they are all committing terrorism. What I mean is: the Muslim fighters are committing terrorism, the Israelis are committing terrorism, and the USA is committing terrorism.

But they all suffer from selective blindness. They only recognize terror AS terror when someone they don't agree with does it.

Typical human thinking...

Indians and whites saw it exactly that way in the frontier days, remember? It was always "the other guy" who was the "savage". It was always the other guy who killed innocent people.

The truth was, they both did.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 11:52 PM

Some of what they say might be biased and some may not. You assume all of it is biased.

How does Hezbollah get their weapons anyway? from Ebay via UPS or thru Syria from Iran?

Are you familiar with the Bekaa Valley?

"Syrian government provided terrorists with safe haven, allowed them to operate over a dozen terrorist training camps in the Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in Lebanon, and permited the Iranian government to re-supply these camps.

It is also widely believed that the Bekaa Valley in Syria-occupied Lebanon served as the epicenter for training the world's most dangerous terrorists. The Bekaa is a one-stop shop for terrorist training. Terrorists from every corner of the international community come together in training camps to learn how to conduct lethal operations. Terrorists learn how to transform themselves into suicide bombers. They also learn how to utilize various types of weapons, including long-range Katyusha rockets, high-explosive anti-tank mines and modern plastic explosives. The effects of this comprehensive training can be seen in such devastating acts as the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing. Other attacks that originated from the Bekaa Valley include the kidnapping and murder of former CIA Beirut station chief William Buckley in 1984.

Such groups as Al-Qaeda, Al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) Hamas, Hezbollah, the Japanese Red Army, Abu Nidal's organization, Force-17, New People's Army (Phillipines), the IRA, Chechen Rebels, Fatah, the Red Brigade, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Medellin Drug Cartel were just some of the terrorist organizations who have received training in the Valley and continue to operate there.

Hezbollah, the Iranian backed Moslem fundamentalist militia, is the largest single militia in the Bekaa."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/lebanon/proxy-groups.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:59 PM

I don't know if what the Israelis said was true or false. You must admit, however, that it cannot be considered an unbiased assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 01:04 PM

So it's in English. Sooooooooo?

Is what the Israelis said true or false. You automatically claim whatever they say is false.

An Israeli said it therefore it is a lie?

Are you a racist?

Hezbollah depends on killing as many innocent people as they can and blaming it on someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:52 AM

I notice that it says 'ARMY' in English. Soooo........?

The linked article is dated Dec. 6, 2003 and the source is Israeli. What did you think they would say?

I was actually surprised they gave Hezbollah so much credit.

In fact, it sounds like Israel depends on it armour whereas Hezbollah depends on its planning and organization.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:39 PM

Called upon by whom?

Notice what it says on this guys uniform.

New York Times

"JERUSALEM, Aug. 6 â€" On Dec. 26, 2003, a powerful earthquake leveled most of Bam, in southeastern Iran, killing 35,000 people. Transport planes carrying aid poured in from everywhere, including Syria.

According to Israeli military intelligence, the planes returned to Syria carrying sophisticated weapons, including long-range Zelzal missiles, which the Syrians passed on to Hezbollah, the Shiite militia group in southern Lebanon that Iran created and sponsors...."

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:28 PM

by whom

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:25 PM

They wear civilian clothes, even though they are on government duty. On duty for what government?


They are said to attack peaceful demonstrators that aren't part of government-organized demonstrations.

They are called upon to put down riots before the police force are called to resolve the issue through traditional methods.

Called upon by who?

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:10 PM

Thank you. We agree.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM

Peace - If you read upthread, you will find that I was stating that since Syria and Iran are overflowing with Iraqi refugees, perhaps the U.S. should help with the costs.

Dickey was the one who claimed that Hezbollah was an Iranian force so Iran should be responsible for the number of refugees that have been created by Hezbollah.

I would also like to know the number of refugees created by Hezbollah as compared to the number of refugees created the the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

I think that its important to differentiate between Hezbollah and the Iranian army or Hezbollah and the Lebanese army.

Hezbollah is supplied by many countries but they are not the army of any particular nation unless you want to recognize the Nation of Islam. As far as I'm concerned, both Syria and Iran (and all other nations) should treat them as criminals but to go to war with another nation based on criminal activity is unwarranted.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:29 PM

Damned right it is. So tell me when you want to get back on track. I'll be right there.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM

Yes, and ...

this is thread drift

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:02 PM

Isreal was formed in 1948 because they got tired of 2000 years of pogroms.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

"Hezbollah was founded in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and subsumed members of the 1980s coalition of groups known as Islamic Jihad. It has close links to Iran and Syria."

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM

Hezbollah is supplied by Iran. It is not an arm of the Iranian military.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:07 PM

I agree with that, Peace, but to say that Hezbollah is an Iranian force is incorrect and misleading. Hezbollah is present in many middle-eastern countries but it is not the army of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:08 AM

Hezbollah are a terrorist faction committed to creating war where and when they can. No war, no funding. Then the useless fuckers would have to get real jobs, and they aren't prepared to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

BULLSHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:47 AM

Patrons or helpers of Hezbollah are not Hezbollah.

Neither are Ansar-e-Hezbollah the Iranian army. It may be true that they have a semi official function in Iran but they are not the government of Iran nor the army of Iran. From what I can gather, they function within Iran. Furthermore, it is Hezbollah in Lebanon that were defending the Lebanese from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:50 AM

"Since when is Hezbolah an "Iranian" force"" Since It was created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_(Iran)

"Ansar-e-Hezbollah is a militant ultraconservative Islamist group in Iran. It revolves around the figure of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and his ideological thought. Mojtaba Bigdeli is a spokesman for the Iranian Hezbollah.

They wear civilian clothes, even though they are on government duty. They are said to attack peaceful demonstrators that aren't part of government-organized demonstrations.

They are called upon to put down riots before the police force are called to resolve the issue through traditional methods. Members of Ansar-e-Hezbollah, who typically dress in plain black clothes, are known for attacking protestors using bars, chains, and other such weapons from fast moving motorcycles. They often disappear or 'stand-down' when the normal police appear.

Currently this group is said to be seeking revenge on a group of Iranian students seen burning a picture of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad during his recent visit to Tehran's Amir Kabir university"

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:41 AM

Barry, I don't know if its still legal or not but my mom used to get her prescriptions via the internet from Canada. What ever happened
to that? If its still happening, look into it. The price difference is amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:36 AM

The funny thing is, I so seldom have had to resort to either drugs or conventional medical treatment over the years that it's hardly made a difference to me, financially speaking, whether or not my country provides free medicare. My father, however, was quite ill for the last 6 months of his life with liver disease, and required extensive hospitalization. In Canada, that ended up costing us virtually nothing (and they were extremely helpful and efficient in every respect, providing assistance at home as well as at the hospital). In the USA that same situation would have bankrupted this family....and my father would still be dead now anyway.

And there is the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:26 AM

I just wrote a check to the pharmacy for $330.45 for our regular precriptions & that's not for a full month for my family. I have Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO from my wife's very large self insured employer. How do you think I feel about a national health plan? I just started medicade too. The plan tells me what are the prefered med's & what isn't & what's covered & what's not. What to do when my body & Dr tells me different? Finding a new country may be easier than finding a new plan!

Canada's health plan is failing? Wait till you really need health care here, "you ain't seen nothing yet, baby"!

I can say that I'm lucky to be alive though these costs are gonna be the death of me yet.

Barry, here in the US by the grace of God.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:08 AM

Here's an idea. Let Dickey move to Canada, but if he gets sick don't force him to accept free medical treatment! Let him pay the full equivalent USA medical fees if he wants to (as a voluntary donation), just so he won't feel troubled by the thought that anything could possibly be better somewhere else besides the USA. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:52 PM

Above post for Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:46 PM

Yeah. We had that already. Used to be mailboxes in Montreal.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM

Yeah you're right Peace......So don't move to Canada Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: skipy
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

Just one, just one, with a rucksack bomb will make a differance!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:35 PM

Stop being so mean spirited, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:31 PM

"Want a health tip? Move to Canada.

An impressive array of data shows that Canadians live longer, healthier lives than we do. What's more, they pay roughly half as much per capita as we do ($2,163 versus $4,887 in 2001) for the privilege."

Read it and weep oldguy Dickey, reprinted from the LA Times

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:12 PM

"During the last two decades of this century (1980-1999), an average of 30,000 refugees were admitted to Canada annually, for an estimated total of about 0.6 million. Given this heavy intake of refugees, it is not surprising that in 1986 the United Nations awarded Canada the Nansen medal for its outstanding humanitarian tradition of settling refugees. It is worth noting that Canada is the first country to be so honoured by the United Nations."

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

"What is the quality of that free medical care?"

Look up the statistics on infant mortality and average life spans in the two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: 7000 refugees to arrive in the U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:30 PM

"You are still struggling with the fact that Hizbollah, an Iranian force, attacked Israel and Israel retaliated." - Dickey

Since when is Hezbolah an "Iranian" force. Its my understanding that Iran has its own army and a very strong army from what I hear.

Regarding Canadian healthcare - Yes, it needs improvement, but in the last five years I have had knee surgery (laser), a slipped disc, a blood clot and broken ribs. I was always given excellent and timely care. In addition, I have been looking into assisted living for my mom who lives in the States. Looks like it will cost a minimum of $2500 a month. In Canada, its free.