good ideas about sharp knives

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 11:56 AM

One of the best cutting implements I ever bought was a small cleaver - not a knife. I bought it on the recommendation of the TV chef, Ken Hom. I bought it from the UK store 'Boots' and it has the name 'Ken Hom' engraved on the blade - for this reason I call it, "Ken Hom's Magnificent Chopper". It's great for cutting both vegetables (not spherical ones like onions or tomatoes, though) and meat.

The blade is not particularly sharp (hence less risk of cutting oneself). Although you might expect that you have to strike down with it - this is not the case. All you have to do is sort of press it into the foodstuff whilst drawing it towards you - the weight of the blade does the rest. Once the foodstuffs are chopped you can scoop them up with the flat of the blade. You can also use the flat of the blade for crushing garlic cloves. All in all a very useful implement.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Oz.
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 11:59 AM

Ha! Went to Kelham Island today - Sat, Dec2nd 2006. Richardson's don't have a clearout, this year, they're putting their seconds on the Web, apparently.

I'm very disappointed, as I bought some great stuff last year, and had been looking forward to today for some time, as I wanted to buy some knives a s presents, and to fill some gaps in my Sabatier collection.

For anyone in the area, there'sa lad has a stall on the Oldcotes Flea Market, most Sundays, selling off seconds & surplus at excellent prices - Google +Oldcotes +Car Boot.

All the Best, Oz.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:59 PM

I hope that this isn't deviating too far from the original post:

I've used edged steel tools in wood work and butchering and have found the following:

my best ever wood chisel was made in China and cost about £1 ($1.50)

the best edge for wood turning tools comes straight from the grindstone

the best edge for carving hardwoods like lime is polished on a leather strop

Victorinox stainless butchers knives are just ok.

My best meat knife is a Taylor's "eye" brand Sheffield knife.

Knives which are used for cutting all day long I find best with a fairly big angle at the edge - probably not razor sharp, but more likely to stay longer in the "useable" envelope.

For the kind of work I specialised in (incisions and removal of lymphatic tissue) the condition of the knife point was particularly important.

My best knives of all are surgical ones - retired from medical service in about 1930 by the look of them, and capable of taking a fabulous edge. The big one's blade is about 12" long and hollow ground like a razor. The smaller is about 5" long and far heavier.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:06 AM

Joe -

Just a couple of days ago I was at Sam's Warehouse Store and they had a guy giving away a free "Ultra Sharp Surgical Steel Paring Knife" to anyone who'd listen to his schpiel about the other crap he was pushing.

I listened long enough to get a look at the paring knives and decided they were'nt anything I needed, and the rest of the junk was "late night TV gottagetitnow" kinda junk so I didn't wait around to get one. He was passing out "larger packages" to some other people who listened, but I found several of them discarded in the pork chop bin a little later. I guess the "gifted recipients" weren't impressed enough to take them through the checkout line.

The name was the same - or very similar, but I wouldn't guess that the knives he was giving away were anything one would rave much about. (rant maybe?).

Sorry I didn't get a name for the "company." I'll see if the guy is still around when I make my "after payday" grocery run - if I remember by then.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:11 AM

Almost fifteen years ago, I bought a couple of three-dollar knives at Albertson's supermarket. They're marked "Ultra Sharp Surgical Stainless U.S.A." Best darn knives I've ever had. I sure wish I could find out where to buy some more. Googling Ultra Sharp Surgical Stainless brings up medical equipment, not kitchen knives.

I read somewhere that Ginzo knives are supposed ot be very good, even though they're cheap. Well, I've had several Ginzo-type knives, and I end up cutting myself on every one of them. They're sharp, but they stick in whatever I'm cutting, and I can't control them to protect my own safety.

Somebody abocve said that most cheap knives are right-handed. Maybe that's my problem, that I'm left-handed. Maybe thse "Ultra Sharp" knives happen to be left-handed, and that's why they work well for me.

I also have a couple of heavy, very expensive knives that I bought at thrift stores. They work very well, too. I used to do a lot of cooking for large groups, so knives are important to me. I've cooked cioppino for as many as 450 people - that's a challenge.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 11:42 PM

Small problem Leadfingers:

Since the last "fix" at mudcat, most of the "post counts" are not correct.

Your "another 100" is actually the 121st post in this thread, even though the "count" shows it as #100.

The actual 100th post (including the opening one) was:

EBarnacle 09 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM

Do you feel at all compromised?

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 08:55 PM

I'll look sharp and get another 100 !!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:18 PM

If your local council mows grass. here's tip. One Aussie guy I know had an endless source of old blades ...

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM

The recommended material was Cerium Oxide, which I got from a local lapidary shop. As used in lapidary it would probably most often be mixed with a bit of water to make a slurry and stones would be tumbled (for hours or days or weeks).

I spent quite a few hours with it, but with a large flat surface like I had it was difficult to get very aggressive without flinging the slurry around the living room (i.e with big power tools). Concentrating on small specific areas, I wasn't able to detect any effect on the glass from about 20 hours of aggressive working on one 3 or 4 inch square area.

It likely was not a bad choice for a polishing agent; but the "project" was too large for my tools, available workspace, and energy. It might have worked better placed between two pieces of glass under moderate load (to get higher, even, contact pressure) as used in telescope mirror finishing; but another piece of "similar glass" would have been another $125 and wouldn't have needed "finishing" to be used as a replacement.

It was an experiment to satisfy my curiosity.

Anyway, I've got a sufficient quantity of the stuff if I ever do decide to grind my own telescope. I'd likely set up machinery for that.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM

JiK
The substances your advisers recommended for using on glass may have been best employed for polishing it rather than removing scratches. Did they mention toothpaste? The older toothpastes usually included kieselguhr ("diatomaceous earth") which is the siliceous skellies of diatoms and about the finest abrasive easily available. The advice about cleaning your teeth vigourously every time you eat something led many to get too enthusiastic with the abrasive toothpastes; this wore away the enamel, which is why most toothpastes these days are gels without the abrasive.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:02 PM

Lots of amateurs who think they'll make their own "special" try using an old file. These are generally "glass hard" and very difficult to temper so they're not brittle, and once you expose fresh surface they usually rust quickly.

Worn out power saw blades make a fairly decent blade for an amateur job, and "gunsmith temper" is often good enough. After a quench harden, you lay the blade in a small pool of engine oil, light the oil and let it burn off. Flame temperature is about right, without forced air, to temper-anneal small "spring-steel" objects below "brittle" stage, and may be "close enough" for a home made blade. (Do this outside - it smokes a lot.)

For a pro, a "minimum buy" from a metal supplier probably would keep you well supplied for a decade or so, unless you're into serious volume. Choosing what specific material to buy for the next few years can be tough though. Finding what you want (or something close) at a salvage or end-lot seller may be even tougher.

I'd usually check The Yard first; but it's local for me and I can wander in and poke around. They have lots of stuff that's not in the catalog.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 10:40 AM

Atlanta Cutlery used to sell bronze-bladed knives. I have not looked at their catalog lately but it is worth the trip, just for the variety. It is getting harder and harder to get good blades for make your own knives.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:42 AM

At Dig uncovers ancient Peruvian knives archaeologists report the first Pre-Incan ceremonial knives "excavated scientifically" so that their provenance can be associated with other artifacts found at the site and accurate dating and relationship to a specific society can be determined.

All previous such knives were obtained from grave robbers, sometimes indirectly, with no accurate supporting information.

A picture of a 14" ceremonial knife is included at the web page.

It's reported as being of "copper alloy" but with little other detail.

It looks a little like an ulu with a very long handle(?) - but they call it a "tumi."

Are any of our people using one like that?

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:34 AM

Giok -

I've got a fistful of scrapers very similar to your Skarsten, and can disagree (mildly) on the "do the same job." Also, it's quite easy to sharpen your bit of glass. You just break a quarter inch off the end and you have a new sharp edge. Or with window glass, just whack it against the nearest hard object, and you've got lots of new sharp edges.

There are some tasks where a good handle is helpful, and others where one needs a shaped blade and a "built tool" is preferable. I'll use my hunk of window glass for many of the rest. I'll even concede that I fairly often just flip the switch on the power sander when the glass would work better, but that's just because I'm lazy.

Rowan -

With thin sheet glass knapping isn't really needed. I probably should break a couple of bottles and get me some thicker chunks to give that a try. As a scraper for smoothing things, a fairly long straight or gently curved edge is best, and knapping tends to produce short - but not straight - cutting edges. A knapped edge strikes me as more suitable for a knife or gouge(?).

Some "plate glass" may present another problem for the knapper. Most "modern" commercial plate sold here is ¹tempered, and if you release the surface stress I'm told it sort of "explodes" like the auto windshield stuff.

¹ At least that's the story I got from the supplier when I replaced a broken top pane on LiK's 1920s drug store display case (family heirloom). He debated whether I could take surface scratches out of the other pane, but eventually conceded that it was probably from the "pre-tempering" era and wouldn't blow up on me. (The abrasives that he and several others recommended wouldn't touch the old stuff, so I'll probably never know whether that was safe to do.)

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:02 PM

JiK
Our local knapper is quite fond of using empty champagne bottles as a source of glass for knapping. It's thicker than most plate glass and thus easier to control.

Giok
Any knapper (even me, and I'm no great shakes) can resharpen almost any stone (or glass) implement by reshaping the edge with some pressure flaking. The "retouch" is the main diagnostic feature that tells an archaeologist that the shape of the putative "implement" has been made as a tool rather than been made by accident, such as "grader flakes". And you can make one for yourself anywhere in the bush that you can find nice pits of rock.

But they don't have the nice built-on handles of your Skarsten Scrapers, agreed.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:24 PM

Skarsten Scrapers do the same job as the glass, with the added benefit of being able to be sharpened.
Giok

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:10 PM

Rowan -

Unfortunately, I don't break enough windows to keep my glass stock up to date very well. Most of my current remnants probably come from picture frames, but they're pretty much the same. I just use a cheap "glass cutter" - wheel type - to score a small piece, twist to snap it off, and then drag it across the wood. It cuts quite cleanly, in small even amounts, without lifting the grain adjacent to the cut.

I've got a set of steel "luthiery scrapers" with modified shapes for gouging out shapes, and they're a little handier for some convex shaping; but they're not nearly as much fun to use (i.e. don't work as well) as fresh glass - when you've got a big enough piece of glass to get the shape right for the task.

Chuppa:

They used to advertise "the sharpest knives you can buy." They weren't, although they were good enough to use out of the box.

(Of course I sharpen X-Acto blades before using them too.)

The Chuppa knives will take a pretty good edge, and retain the edge reasonably well. The blades seem to be a little harder than I really prefer, which makes it more work to get the edge you'd really like.

The cast-on aluminum handles are of course pretty much indestructible. I have one Chuppa inherited from my mother that probably was new in about 1943 (a free-gimme from the corner grocery), and they've changed very little. The paring knife seems to get a slightly larger handle now, and some of the larger ones - the last I picked up - have a bit "flatter" grip.

One of the "weak points" with Chuppa was a very limited selection of sizes and shapes, at least as shown on the web site they had a few years ago. It would be interesting to hear if their new catalog has expanded the selection, although I'm pretty well stocked with what I need (and some I don't really need) right now.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:10 PM

JiK, the way you use your tub of glass fragments sounds like you're using them the way indigenous Australians used a "tula". And you're right about the finish.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Chuppa Knife
From: bnot
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:01 PM

I too was looking for a set of Chuppa knives. I bought this one knife, back in 1980 at a grocery store, and its still sharp! No rust or anything!   

Did many searches, many times, and finally got a number in TN, called it, and it'd been changed to a number in Florence AL.

For the guest that posted looking for Chuppa knives, the phone number is 256-767-5119. They are in Florence AL, USA.

They are going to send me a catalogue. Seems their webisite isn't up yet. No wonder I couldn't find didly about them on the net!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: NH Dave
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:25 PM

One of our local start-up companies in the business of making plasma jets, that "burned" atomic neon in a plasma hot enough to melt granite and brick, used to spray a tungsten carbide coating on one side of a cheap Woolie's paring or carving knife, and present these as gifts for the visiting folks to take home to their wives, they also were given a brick with their name burned into it for themselves. The idea as I recall, was that the stainless steel would wear away, leaving the incredibly sharp, thin layer of tungsten carbide, which did the cutting.

My experience in getting good cutlery is to shop where the cooks shop, at kitchen supply stores. The material is first rate, although the appearance may not be up to something you might buy at a local shop, but it won't cost as much either, as it was made for use, and not show. At one time when I was thinking of selling a line of consumer cutlery, I discovered I could find the same gear at a commercial store for half the price, as neither the fancy finish nor the salesman's and management's commissions had to be paid.

Dave

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 09:25 PM

Rowan

Not a matter of sharpness exactly, but I keep a tub full of scrap bits of window glass in the corner of the garage. Grandpappy showed me decades ago that a fresh-cracked piece is the best possible scraper for getting the splinters off a hoe handle. Much faster than sandpaper, even with a power sander, and less damaging to the wood.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:37 PM

JiK wrote "For incredibly sharp tools, I'm told that freshly knapped flint is superior to any modern steel. One surgeon who actually tested using "flint scalpels" (made for him by a friend who was a "re-enactor") was so impressed he attempted to learn how to make them, but conceded he'd never be able to learn the stone age skill needed to make them consitently."

When I was studying archaeology 20-odd years ago I saw a film clip of an American Indian knapping flint to make various stone implements; the clip might have already been about 15 years old. Whether he was a "Re-enactor" depends on your definitions I suppose but he was quite elderly at the time and very good. Certainly he was reported to have later required open-heart surgery and made a set of blades for the surgeon to use during the surgery, after sterilisation (of the blades, silly). The surgeon was reported to have been quite impressed.

The eye surgery I mentioned was a later event using obsidian (volcanic glass) blades made by an archaeologist who was researching stone-tool technology. I'm not sure of the exact details (it was a long time ago) and I suspect the surgery may not have been on a person, as it seems to have been done to check whether the obsidian edge performed as well as, or better than, the usual steel scalpels.

Flint is silicified with extremely fine grain and obsidian is glass (silica) with no grain but they're extremely sharp. When teaching in the northern suburbs of Melbourne (where the 'uniform' of the time included hair spikes with orange and blue hair gel) I got a friend of mine to do a demonstration of flint knapping the way Australian Aboriginal people had done it. The students were warned of the sharpness but were disbelieving until they experimented. Bandaids were always on hand.

Fired fine-grained ceramics are similar to flint. When the Overland Telegraph (Darwin - Adelaide) was connected through Alice Springs in 1872, the linesmen had much trouble with Aboriginals along its whole length pinching the insulators to use to make blades and other implements. The problem disappeared when small piles of broken insulators were left at the bases of the poles along the line for them to use.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:46 PM

m/m -

A fairly recent "historyical revision" holds that the end of the "bronze age" and transition to the "iron age" was not because iron is a better material than bronze. With the materials and processing capabilities of the time of the transition, bronze was in fact a much superior material, and remained so until very modern times.

Bronze, even of that time, doesn't rust. Iron and even much later mild steel rusts quickly and even modern "high carbon" steels of many kinds are prone to short life.

Bronze can be "hardened" simply by hammering at room temperature, and reaches hardness levels unattainable by the simple irons of early times, which must be heated to high temperatures to be hammmered without cracking, quenched to be hardened, and then tempered to avoid being extremely brittle.

The simplistic explanation is simply that "they ran out of bronze" and were forced to substitute an inferior material.

The real explanation is that political disruptions made bronze inaccessible to most of the world population of that time, and a "cheap substitute" had to be developed. Eventually the substitute was worked into something fairly useful, but it did take quite a while.

Anyone who doubts what can be achieved in terms of strength and hardness with bronze might like to try cutting a scrap off a modern cymbal. My son had one that developed a few small cracks (after a lot of abuse), and I thought that drilling a few "stop" holes to prevent the cracks from growing might be a good idea. After burning the entire cutting end off of about three tungsten carbide (the best available) bits, I gave it up without ever making a complete hole.

For incredibly sharp tools, I'm told that freshly knapped flint is superior to any modern steel. One surgeon who actually tested using "flint scalpels" (made for him by a friend who was a "re-enactor") was so impressed he attempted to learn how to make them, but conceded he'd never be able to learn the stone age skill needed to make them consitently.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:57 AM

A master machinist once told me that, in theory at least, phosphor bronze will take a sharper edge than any other metal. For what it's worth.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:16 AM

Now that one duty of the partental taxi service is out of the way I can put in some more.

My first sharp knife had a very ordinary handle but it worked; it was a plasticised type of timber but a bith short for me. That was the main reason I got the heavier knives when I started running camps; the handles were much better suited, with full tangs through the timber panels. The pet meaters, though, wouldn't countenance anything other than plastic handles, so there were no crevices into which the detergent couldn't get. These handles were textured so that, no matter how wet and slippery with blood & guts, water or detergent, your grip was secure.

My experience is that the knife can be of only reasonable quality but will do well if you care for it. A really good knife that is given only 'ordinary' care will go the way of all flesh very quickly. One trouble I have is getting good quality paring knives with good blades and handles. Most are so easily thrown out with the kitchen scraps (my ex) that many places in the bush don't stock them because, keeping the likelihood of such a fate in mind, the expense puts customers off and the retailers respond only to high demand and thus don't stock them. Bit of a circle actually.

Cheers, Rowan

Enough from me

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:28 AM

Having read through the thread I thought I'd put in a couple of comments myself. Most of JohnInKansas' stuff is, in my experience 'spot on' except where I don't know the brands. Even so, here goes.

The very sharpest blades are not made of steel of any type. If you look at an edge through a microscope (as I do when dealing with residue analysis and use wear) you'll always find that the finest edge on a steel blade is serrated. This is why even scalpel blade cuts leave scars. Glass (not often used for kitchen knives, true) is about the only material that forms a blade with no serrations. Which is why microtome knives for electron microscopy sections are made of glass. Although not common, knapped blades from obsidian have been used for eye surgery and have been shown to leave less scarring than steel scalpel blades.

Such arcane considerations aside, commercial kitchens, domestic kitchens and wilderness butchering all impose different demands on both the tools and the users. I've used a cheap stainless cook's knife for the last 40 years now and its blade is still straight and sharp enough to effortlessly slice through overripe tomatoes at 1/8" intervals. My mother kept all knves in the same drawer; even the 'sharp' ones were blunt and I vowed, when I moved out, that I would keep my own knives sharp.

I don't use a dishwasher; each knife is washed separately, rinsed hot and then wiped separately and stored vertically in a thing I made to hang out of sight on the back of a cupboard door. I won't use anything other than a timber cutting board and I prefer my kids to acquire necessaery immunities the old fashioned way.

When I ran school camps I got myself a couple of heavier carbon steel knives for more frequent duties and later added them to the rack. But although they required more care and teaching they were still the goods.

When I was at Kakadu, I was involved with the local Aboriginal community, investigating bush tucker, some of which was feral buffalo. ANPWS ran a workshop on identifying TB as part of the BTec programme and the "pet meaters' (as the guys who hung out of chopper doors and shot buffalo for the pet meat trade were called) ran classes on how to use knives. Because the meat might be contaminated with TB, utensils had to be treated with bacteriocides between uses. So, instead of using oils on sharpening stones, they used bacteriocidal detergent and washed stones, knives and stells in buckets of the stuff.

This was where I learned that stones are used for sharpening while steels and strops (not used here) are used for reshaping (and thus retaining) the edge. All this was done out in the scrub so the techniques were different and interesting.

Gotta go, daughters are getting restless.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 12:08 PM

Ah, but for slicing I want 'em sharp. Also, there's a difference in sharpness needed for combat and cooking and butchering.

I use my ulu with a rocking motion, and it does a wonderful job of slicing. A good design -- an elegant solution. Yes, it can also be used for chopping, but I don't use it that way by personal choice.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM

I recently spoke with a cutler/blacksmith at a RenFaire. We got around to the nature of the edge on swords and knives. He was most emphatic that the last thing you want on any chopping or slashing tool is a highly sharpened is a supersharp edge as they are too vulnerable to dulling.

Taking this a little further, the same applies to a cleaver or chopper. The purpose of these tools is to be chopped into joints and other tough objects, such as the denser squash varieties. The angle of sharpening would be larger than for knives doing slicing as the primary job. My grandmother's chopping bowl, with ulu-type knife [known by our Italian neighbors as a mezzaluna] is still with me. It is not supeer sharp, as the movement is more of a vertical chop than a slicing movement. By the same token, don't let them actually get dull or chipped.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 07:08 AM

Just want to say I still have the set of knives Yorkshire Yankee got for me and they are still working beautifully - quite as good as the knife I paid £30 for.

I owe her and her husband a big drink next time I see them.

feel free to present this as an IOU.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM

Over the years I have owned several good quality knives used for a variety of hard work purposes. I kept them all very sharp with constant care. The best products that I have ever found and used, are the Eze-Lap Diamond Steels. http://worldwideknives.com/sharpeners/ezelap1.html

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:30 AM

where can I order chuppa knives from?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 01:01 PM

There is a fairly widely accepted notion that the great polio epidemic was the direct result of the spread of indoor plumbing. There were/are I believe(?) 4 variants of the "bug," 3 of which were mild but kept a general resistance prevalent, which prevented widespread infection by the one serious variant. "Improved" sanitation wiped out the "inoculant" varieties, leaving everyone susceptible to the paralytic one. Once the nasty one reached "critical mass" it spread virtually everywhere.

Less accepted, but still open for further research, is that the apparent surge in "asthmatic conditions" in the population may be the result of "overly fastidious" protection of small children from "dirty things" that could have innoculated them while their immmune systems are developing. Apparently valid research has indicated that asthma and similar "allergic problems" are much less common when there were pets in the household while the children were small; but it seems to have little effect beyond about age 2.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:17 AM

I carry a pocket knife, plastic handle, drab. It was issued by the Federal Armed forces as gift for the conscripts; got mine about 15 years ago. I keep it sharp with a small pocket diamond whetstone which I also carry with me everytime.

For my kitchen I use Japanese knives (wood handles), honing them regularly with oil. Small work, with lots of music, and wonderful success.

No problems with wood in the kitchen; a good cleaning after use works wonders. And I think a main problem with instabile health today is that people relay too much on hygiene. I have seen a lot of dirt and dust in the field (scouts and army) and am still going strong.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 07:05 PM

Aussie Butcher Blocks used to made from chunks of Eucalyptus trunk - up to 4-5 feet or even larger in diameter. A few feet high on small legs that raised it above the sawdust floor. They were scraped and washed with bleach every day.

But these days "you can't get the wood you know"... :-)

The Eucalyptus oil is a disinfectant.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM

JohninKansas, I have had guests look at the carbon knives I use, and tell me they are dangerous, not because of cuts, but because they look dirty- they must harbor bacteria! So much for most peoples' knowledge of knives.
I see lots of Gustave ... in use by butchers here.

Rapaire, I have two good bread knives, both about 8 inches long (any shorter and it is hard to cut diagonally). I just checked them to see what they are.
One is a cheaper Henckels ('Superfection') and the other is a Cook & Clark made in Sheffield, from a garage sale. I think it is a cheapie, but it works well. The size of the serration and number per inch are important; in a kitchen drawer I have some that are terrible although they were sold as bread knives.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM

I've been using a Gustave Emil Ern 898 for the past 15 years. Bought it at a restaurant supply store on the Bowery in NYC. It is stainless. The tang has 3 rivets holding it into its wooden handle. It still looks like new.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:32 AM

Wash ANY cutting board with hot water and soap after EACH use and every month or so wipe it down with chlorine bleach (rinse it off really well no matter what you use, of course).

Recently I was slicing round steak into thin strips, cutting at about a 60 degree angle. Yup, you sure can cut yourself with a sharp knife. And the next day I cut myself on the edge of a colleague's desk, too.

You can do a lot of things, but some of 'em ya gotta work at.

The size of the knife you use depends upon the job at hand. But sharp is always good.

Anyone know of a really good bread knife? A knife designed for cutting bread, not simply a long, serrated, blade?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dani
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:34 AM

Great thread! True, no music, but very good information.

Two thoughts: It is absolutely true that dull knives are FAR more dangerous than sharp.

And,'plastic' cutting boards are easily re-surfaced when they are scratched up, and are thus as dangerous as any poorly cleaned wooden board. Depending upon the size and shape of the board, it may or may not be worth the cost, but any knife sharpening service ought to be able to do it for you.

Dani

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 09:32 AM

Since we've finally gotten around to surface treatments, I'll drop one of my own. About 20 years ago, I accidently left one of my self-made knives aboard a friend's boat. About a year later, I discovered it in the galley sink, with a lot of surface rust. I cleaned it up, ending with a knife with a lot of surface pitting. For some reason, it no longer rusts and holds an edge like grim death.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:23 AM

Bat'leth? Is 'Bat' Klingon for tongue?

(No, no, of course, it is Simpson for 'Cheek.)

(I spend too much time in front of the TV.)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Kaleea
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 02:18 AM

My knife is a Klingon Bat'leth!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:31 PM

Q -

One occasionally finds good old knives that aren't necessarily particularly high carbon. The "lesser" irons will take an edge, and even hold one pretty well, but they have a tendence to rust too rapidly, and the rust destroys the edge - along with the rest of the tool. An old knife that's been used, and had a lot of meat run across it, been washed for decades in lye soap with lots of fat in it, will eventually take on a "surface treatment" that's almost indestructible. Commercial and industrial surface treatments try to do it in a hurry; but the old tools that get it built up slowly can be remarkably usable and durable.

A specific instance where the "treatment" happens fairly often is with old barber equipment. Constantly bathed in "hair grease" they can form an almost indestructible skin, and if it's not taken off too agressively when sharpening they seem to "heal over" the sharpened edge so that they act like "stainless" (of a rather peculiar color) even though they're not particularly "high performance" metal.

It's a process a bit like the "cure" on granny's cast iron skillet, I suppose.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:08 PM

Very late to enter this thread, but over several years I have put together a small collection of old high carbon knives.
These darkly mottled ugly wooden-handled knives, often mis-shapen from use, can be sharpened on good novaculite (genuine Arkansas) stones, and from then on may be kept in good form by use of a steel.
Most went to the dump years ago, but sometimes one may be found in the poorest of junk shops. Cost- nothing to a dollar or so.

A few years ago, a Canadian company called Lee Valley found a small cache of unused knives of this kind in a warehouse in France. Only two sizes, but excellent! I wish I had bought more to give as presents.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM

LOL

I will remember that, thank you!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:09 PM

Peace, your gift set left out one important item: The blindfold.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:08 AM

"good ideas about sharp knives"

Have an enemy? Give him a set of hefty sharp knives and an instruction book: "How to Juggle Like a Professional in THREE EASY LESSONS".

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:39 AM

Gurney –

The females around my house have had a similar preference for "teeny-weeny" knives, but have started using a more utilitarian size since I added to the collection recently.

My "currently popular" utility knife is made from the Steakhouse Knife shown about halfway down here. I found a few at $3 US each at a local supermarket, and bought a couple "to play with." When I found that once the serrated edge was removed they made a really nice kitchen utility knife, I went back and bought the rest of them (about 8 total). The cheap ones had unfinished wood handles, which are very comfortable to use. The same knife, but with a slick hard finish on the handles is still available at a couple of local hardware stores, at about $6 each, and I've converted a set of 6, but I don't really care for the slick finish. I've threatened to try stripping the finish, but laziness has prevented it.

The cheap ones are marked "Steak House, Premium Beef" on the blade, while the "fancy ones" are marked "Tramontina, High Carbon Stainless Steel." Blades appear to be identical, a little more polish on the high priced ones; and the necessary grinding to remove the teeth indicates they're almost "burn proof" under any reasonable amount of grinding. After the teeth are removed, a quick pass on a belt sander, about 80 or 120 grit, puts a nice utility edge on with no real need for additional finishing. (If you polish off the "tooth" left by the sandpaper, you have to make them a whole lot sharper to get about the same ease in cutting for most kitchen purposes. Either way works.)

**** Japanese Knife:

Mentioning it in the thread made me curious about my "Japanese knife," since I'd never bothered to find out exactly what to call it.

According to Wikipedia: Nakiri bochu it's a Japanese vegetable knife (Nakiri) with the "Tokyo" blade shape. Mine has an apparently "westernized" wooden handle much like common kitchen knives. Blade markings are "Pilot, Sakai Japan, Sharp Stainless" and the box says "Pilot/1500" but I haven't found that as a brand name (or as anything else) on the web.

Kikuichi Warikomi Gold Elite Vegetable Knife looks like mine except for the ferrule and a slightly more "round edged" handle, but at $110 list probably is a bit different. I paid about $18 or $20 (US) for mine, although it was about 15 years ago.

6.5-in. Nakiri Knife is close to my "Japanese knife." Differences are that mine has a wooden handle, slot and rivets, in place of the "simulated bamboo" shown, and cost me about $18 instead of the $30 shown here. Fifteen years may have inflated prices that much(?).

Kershaw 6616N Wasabi Nakiri Vegetable Knife 6.5-in. is also similar, but again has the round handle that I find less comfortable and is about 3x the price I paid.

Shape is about like the Messermeister Asian Precision Usuba Knife - 7 inch except their description of this knife as a "lightweight cleaver" implies a much thicker blade than the one I like. The "cleaver" reference isn't really consistent with the Wikipedia description of the Usuba, but it might not be too far off.

It appears, from my bit of poking around, that if one just asked for a "Japanese knife" they'd probably be offered something called a santoku knife. This name doesn't appear in Wikipedia's Japanese knife types, and I suspect a "made up for westerners" naming – sort of a "Japanese French Chef;" but all the popular ($$$) makers seem to offer one. It's a completely different style (for my purposes) than what I have. For most of the other Japanese styles, I'd probably prefer a common "western" type, but the very thin blade on the Nakiri does "do better" for chopping veggies and some other things.

**** Ulu:

An accidental find during my browsing was another source (maybe already mentioned?) for the Ulu, at Cove Cutlery: Ulu. I got mine at Walmart, about $10 (late at night when nobody would see me shopping there.)

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:50 AM

A little detail: Most serrated knives are right handed. If you use them left handed, you will find that the cut curves to the left. It's really just a control issue.

Also, a lot of cultures have variants on the ulu. The mezzaluna is usually used with a chopping bowl and is great for all sorts of foods that need to be chopped and diced.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 05:48 AM

I have an el-cheapo Chinese sheath knife that I use for a baitknife for fishing. It keeps an edge better than any other stainless-steel tool I've ever handled, and it is so sturdy that you can hammer it through a frozen Tuna. Sometimes you get lucky.

It's been said several times, you are LESS likely to cut yourself with a sharp knife. It's less likely to slip and you are more likely to be careful.

I use a cleaver for most kitchen cutting, after seeing oriental chefs using them. Good for cheese, particularly.

I can't see a problem with those self-sharpening kitchen knife sheaths. The knife doesn't last long, but it doesn't cost much either, and the sheath (Wiltshire) will last for several knives, and whilst I can sharpen tools, SWMBO can't.

If only I could persuade her to use a decent size of knife instead of that tiny 'vegetable' knife.....
Has anyone else observed that men use bigger knives than women?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:01 AM

speaking of slashed wrists - well, palm of hand.

I get my knife sharpened at the local chef's equipment shop (ya should've seen the line of apprentice chefs & their teachers outside that little hole-in-the-wall shop recently!)

I've always considered that getting it back wrapped in newspaper after I take it in wedged inside a stapled envelope/pouch of thick cardboard a bit dangerous.

It was this time & I have a finger-length shallow cut across the base of my palm. It was all very exciting, with several gloops of blood which I treated with tea-tree oil & bandaids. Later I was chopping garlic & stabbed my finger, so more tea-tree oil & another bandaid.

The moral of the story is that I will take along my cardboard pouch the next time I collect it, tho a better moral might be might be that I keep it sharp so I don't stab myself.

ps. thanks Mudcatters & Guests for a lot of good info. I recently replaced one of my wooden boards with a plastic one, which has become very scratched. I'm glad I kept one wooden board, cos it seems cleaner & I just might consider getting rid of the plastic one cos hand-washing doesn't seem to clean those scratches.