The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

By the way, WAV, it was imperialism (you have heard of "The British Empire," haven't you?) that made English culture during the period you're so fond of possible.

Just thought I'd point that out to you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Says something, then when questioned about it or called on it, he ducks it and says something else.

Like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall.

What exactly do you mean by "economic/capitalistic immigration/emigration?"

Some detail, please.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM

Xenophobia, Ruth, is a fear or hatred of aliens/strangers, which is a ridiculous thing to say of someone who DID enjoy travelling on a shoestring through about 40 countries and, in frank response to your earlier question, made a point of stressing a love of our world being multicultural. And, if you set up some kind of candid camera to see if I would help a tourist of any culture or race, you would once more be proven wrong. It's the act of economic/capitalist immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning.
Don: for similar reasons, I hate imperialism be it Nazi, Victorian, American, or any other.
Volgadon: I did answer your questions, equally frankly - the only extra detail I can give is that, if attitudes changed radically and I was some kind of leader, I'd delegate for experts in their field to flesh-out the details of my above REGULATIONISM; i.e., macro NOT micro management...and how's your standard English dictionary going?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Are you going to answer any of my points and questions, WAV?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Hell Ruth, that's okay.......Why I tell ya' Bigass Amazon scares the crap outta' me too!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

you are a xenophobe, David.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

"And I've also enjoyed those cuisines you and FT mention - DURING MY TRAVELLING - which was, in hindsight, the eco-travel/eco-tourism you questioned."

Well, how lovely for you, WAV!

Within walking distance or easy driving distance of where I live, there are a number of ethnic restaurants: three Chinese (not "chop suey" and "chow mein" joints, each serves authentic cuisine from a different part of China), Thai, Indian, two Mexican restaurants, two Italian, one Greek, restaurants that feature foods of other Mediterranean countries—a whole United Nations General Assembly of cuisines available to me and others who live where I do.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this world who cannot afford to go to Iran for luleh kebabs or Spain for paella or Turkey for babaganoush or Thailand for tom yum kung or Brazil for caruru do par. According to you, the right to enjoy the variety of the world's provender should be limited to those who can afford to indulge in eco-travel/eco-tourism. And everyone else (at least your fellow English) should stay home and dine on the legendary English "cuisine" of fifty years ago (which—I have been told—consisted of boiling the flavor out of everything)!

That is, at the very least, elitist!

"However, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the UN should agree to stop economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (including the American Green Card lottery system) FROM NOW ON. Further, it IS much more difficult for tourists to terrorize."

In addition to being blatantly inaccurate, the level of bigotry betrayed by this statement is shocking. This is the sort of stuff spouted by Southern rednecks and neo-Nazis.

And if you knew anything about the United Nations at all, you would know that what you would have them do regarding immigration/emigration just isn't ever going to appear on their agenda.

Incredible!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

So you genuinely prefer an England "then" that you never existed in, because you were born too late? What are the reasons you prefer England then as opposed to now?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Are you going to answer any of my points and questions, WAV?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

...and as Ruth already knows from other threads, but wants me to repeat, I genuinely prefer England "then than now" - although I do love our world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

Nope IE......I love the Bronx! I thank the lord daily that its not English.......LOL

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

"Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place."

And the only logical question to arise from this statement, David, is whether you think that was a good thing? Do you think that this made England intrinsically "better" then than now?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

Hey catspaw-you making fun of the bronx? Look out man, my dad's from the bronx and thems fighting words!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Okay Wavy, ya' gotta' point there. England in the 1950's was culturally a much more English place than the Bronx or Santa Fe. No two ways about that!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

I didn't say there were no ethnic groups, or no ethnic conflict, in the 1950s, CB - I said: "Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

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Author: Steve Silver   |   Date: May 2006

Who killed my brother?
The murder of Kelso Cochrane on Saturday 17 May 1959 became one of the most significant moments in the history of racism in Britain. Stabbed to death by a gang of racist white youths, Cochrane was killed in a strikingly similar way to Stephen Lawrence in 1993. In both cases there was a conspiracy of silence that protected his murderers, but of course Stephen's name remains well known while Kelso's has largely faded from public memory.

That is why last month's BBC2 documentary Who Killed my Brother? was so welcome. The black and white footage of the Notting Hill area of west London was a grim reminder of some of the worst aspects of 1950s Britain, a far cry from the chic Notting Hill made famous by Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts nearly 40 years later in the 1999 film of that name.

Kelso Cochrane was an Antiguan who came to Britain in 1954 and settled in Notting Hill, where he worked as a carpenter. He was saving money so that he could eventually study law. Rejecting the opportunity to live in the USA when he was offered residency there, he made Britain his home.

While at work Kelso fractured his left thumb. Come the weekend, his arm in a sling, he found himself in severe pain. So, after a sunny Saturday spent at Portobello Road Market and Hyde Park with his fiancée, a nurse, that evening Kelso went to Paddington General Hospital to get his thumb looked at again and some pain relief. He was given pain killers and made his way home. Just a short distance from where he lived, he was attacked by five to seven white youths and stabbed in the heart. He died in hospital a short while later.

The Notting Hill area had become notorious following "race riots" eight months earlier in 1958. Because of this, Kelso's killing was to become national news and a hot political issue. Some 1,200 people, black and white, turned out for his funeral.

One man could not make the funeral. Back in Antigua, Kelso's brother Stanley, who had paid for Kelso's trip to England, did not have enough money to come himself. Who Killed my Brother? is the story of Stanley's journey to London this year in search of the truth about what happened the night his brother died.

Nobody has ever been tried for the murder. Stanley spoke to people close to Kelso at the time and with the TV researchers delved through archive material. He returned to Antigua with a better understanding of what happened but still a lot of missing pieces. Kelso's clothes had been destroyed in 1968 making advances in forensic technology that might have secured a conviction useless in this case. Searchlight cooperated with the police cold case murder reinvestigation team and the BBC researchers in tracking down potential witnesses.

In a pattern to be repeated all over Britain following other racist killings, the police at the time were quick to claim Kelso's murder was not racist. This was almost certainly a misguided attempt to ensure calm in the area. The reason behind this was a belief that the sentencing of white youths to four years' imprisonment for attacking black people had exacerbated tensions before the 1958 riots. In reality that was a rare conviction for what had been regular "nigger hunting expeditions". It has also been suggested that the police were worried about the repercussions as in those days a conviction for murder would have meant a hanging.

Union Movement

Of course, like moths to a light bulb, wherever there is a possibility of racial tensions, the fascists were active. Oswald Mosley's Union Movement targeted the Notting Hill area and many blamed it for whipping up racial hatred. There were no laws against inciting racial hatred at the time, which gave racists and fascists a free hand. Feeling the heat in the wake of the murder, Mosley issued this statement on the following Tuesday:

"On May 17 a negro was reported murdered in the Notting Hill district. The next day some daily papers suggested that this was due to racial tension and that I was responsible on account of my prospective candidature, although I had just circulated to every house in the area to settle the question by 'votes not violence' …"

Mosley said one thing and did another. He went on to hold a meeting on the very spot where Kelso was murdered. Who Killed my Brother? interviewed John Bean, a man once described as "the British Goebbels". Bean was one of the best known Union Movement activists at the time; he is currently editor of the British National Party magazine, Identity.

Most interesting of all was a key local Union Movement activist, Peter Dawson. A Notting Hill resident, Dawson joined the organisation in January 1959. While never a suspect in Kelso's murder, Dawson claimed to hold a vital piece of information.

On 24 September 1961 the Sunday People ran an exposé of Dawson under the headline "Britain's Biggest Bully Unmasked". Talking about Kelso's murder, Dawson told the reporter, Ken Gardner: "It was one of the Union mob … A great guy. Did it to teach the other nigs a lesson. But none of us in the movement would tell the police a thing."

Dawson was an unsavoury character even by fascist standards. The article described him as a "Housebreaker, thief, [and a] strong-arm man. Just the man for Mosley, who appointed him West London area organiser for the Union Movement."

Dawson played a leading role in Mosley's electioneering in Notting Hill. During the run-up to one election he was fined £10 for throwing a home-made smoke bomb into the window of a car. It was reported that he had "inflamed a crowd [at a meeting] against a group of white girls standing with their coloured boyfriends".

On 31 December 1959 Dawson allegedly daubed the slogan "Juden raus" (Jews out) three times on the wall of Notting Hill Gate synagogue with swastikas between the words. Then he slipped back to the office to make anonymous phone calls to the newspapers. The Association of Jewish Ex-Serviceman formed a group to guard synagogues, but in an attempt to discredit them Dawson placed a home-made bomb just outside the Union Movement headquarters. By its side he painted a Star of David.

In July 1960 Dawson was involved in a disturbance outside the Ritz Hotel where Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo, was staying. Dawson was sentenced to three months' imprisonment for using threatening behaviour whereby a breach of the peace might have been occasioned. According to the prosecution Dawson mistook the High Commissioner for Ghana for Lumumba and hit him in the face.

Dawson also sent fascist literature as a wedding present to Princess Margaret. Soon afterwards he organised a protest march outside the Pigalle Restaurant against the black American singer Sammy Davis Junior, who had recently married a Swedish woman, Mai Britt. He also boasted of putting a flaming cross on the railway bridge at Notting Hill Gate. "That put fear into the local blacks. They thought the Ku Klux Klan had arrived to burn them at the stake."

Dawson was for a time the circulation manager for Union Movement's Action newspaper. He was finally expelled from the organisation after an arson attack for which he was acquitted.

The programme makers tracked down Dawson in the hope of getting him to talk on camera but to no avail. If he does know who killed Kelso, to this day he will not say.

A prime suspect was a local young man who had been released from prison two weeks earlier. John "Shoggy" Breagan was notorious in the area for his violent racism towards black people which had led to his conviction. The trial judge referred to this hatred which combined with drink had led him to attack three black men with weapons including a knife. Breagan had attended the drinks party from where the men who attacked Kelso had come. Despite a lengthy police interview Breagan was never charged. Although Breagan agreed to meet Stanley, his front door remained firmly shut when Stanley turned up. In an angry phone call to the BBC he denied any knowledge of the murder.

White Defence League

Colin Jordan's White Defence League, which had its national headquarters in nearby Princedale Road, was also very active in the wake of Kelso's murder. Jordan prided himself that his organisation was even more nazi than the Union Movement. Less than a month after the murder he issued a pamphlet laden with conspiracy theory entitled Who Killed Kelso Cochrane? It said:

"The people behind the coloured invasion are getting desperate because of the growing white resistance in Notting Hill. Reds are forming strong-arm squads in support of the blacks. Jews have threatened to destroy the premises of the White Defence League. Now they are using the killing of a coloured man to:

"Smear the white folk of Notting Hill.


'Frame' white resistance organisations in the district.


Demand new laws to stifle and punish resistance.


Was Cochrane's killing arranged for this foul purpose?"

Interviewed on camera an ageing Jordan claimed with nostalgic bravado that his people operated unhindered from their Notting Hill premises. But Searchlight knows different. On one occasion three years after Kelso's murder, the building, which had by then become the headquarters of the National Socialist Movement and was only open at weekends, was attacked by anti-fascists and the furniture and contents turned upside down while members of the nazi "master race" cowered inside.
David Franks you really dont know what you are talking about

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM

The Notting Hill race riots were a series of racially-motivated riots which took place in the Notting Hill area of London, England over several nights in late August and early September 1958.
correction,The Notting Hill race riots of 1958 lasted for nearly a week and and were triggered by the activities of the British Union of Fascists led by Sir Oswald Mosley who encouraged direct action against Caribbean people in North Kensington.
I have no direct evidence linking Colin Jordan,to these riots.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

"On the other hand Don, I - living in Newcastle upon Tyne, within walking distance of the (Charles) Grey's Monument - prefer mostly coffee and an occasional cup of tea.
"
Coffee, a beverage originating in Ethiopia which was spread throughout the Ottoman Empire by Arabs, then spread to Europe by the Turks.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

no it wasnt.there were loads of irish,jews,and west indians.
in fact in notting hillgate in 1959,there were riots instigated by Oswald Mosley and Colin Jordan.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

The usual going round in circles. Does culture = nationality? No.

Is there a single national culture or identity? No.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:41 AM

Well, if you donts want to tell us, we cants make you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM

"Could you please define what you mean by culture here?" (Ed)...wonts.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM

Glad to see this bizarre thread back - did anyone else notice that it was closed an hour or two ago, or was I imagining?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM

Hoodie culture? Blame culture? Those are cultures I find it hard to live with!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

I don't understand you. Could you please define what you mean by culture here? Many thanks,

Ed

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:33 AM

On the other hand Don, I - living in Newcastle upon Tyne, within walking distance of the (Charles) Grey's Monument - prefer mostly coffee and an occasional cup of tea. And I used to debate with my late-Godmother over whether the milk/soya (in my case) should go in first (her) or last (me - that way we can get the correct amount visually).
And I've also enjoyed those cuisines you and FT mention - DURING MY TRAVELLING - which was, in hindsight, the eco-travel/eco-tourism you questioned.
However, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the UN should agree to stop economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (including the American Green Card lottery system) FROM NOW ON. Further, it IS much more difficult for tourists to terrorize.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 10:08 PM

We're especially blessed here in Seattle. This is a major West Coast seaport city, and there are ethnic restaurants of all kinds here.

One of the local supermarkets has employed a Chinese chef in their deli department, and he makes the most outrageous Mongolian beef (strips of flank steak cooked in a savory—sorry, "savoury"—sauce and served over mixed vegetables or rice)! A gourmet delight!

But lest WAV assume that this puts me beyond the pale, since coffee (I used to drink gallons of the stuff) has started bothering my stomach, I've switched to tea. I'm particularly fond of English breakfast tea (purchasable at a local outlet), while occasionally preferring to start the day with a cup of Earl Gray.

I'm not sure. Is "Earl" the gentleman's first name, or is it his title?

A few years ago I watched a piece on television—pardon me, "the telly"—in which the Duchess of York explained in detail how to make "the perfect cup of tea." I tend to follow her quite detailed instructions, which, I find, produces quite satisfactory results.

Tea, regarded as the quintessential English beverage, originated in southeast Asia, specifically around the intersection of latitude 29°N and longitude 98°E, the point of confluence of the lands of northeast India, north Burma, southwest China and Tibet.

What would English culture—or any culture, for that matter—be without cross-culteral influences?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

The "Free Trade Agreeement" between Aust & US is known here as 'The F*** The Aussies' con job...

"when people move from place to place, they bring parts of their culture with them. [snip] it is quite natural that they would want to bring the good aspects of what they left behind with them."

That's how Australia has become the Gourmet delight of the world - we got so many different cultural based food systems!

Went across the the park yesterday to the local 'multicultural festival' - such events are becoming very common in Australia now.

Snacked on a range of Indian/Thai/Dutch/French/German/Italian/Spanish/ ... (lost track) nibblies... (and there was no Sushi either!) Yum! Would I want to go back to the stodgy 'Traditional Aussie Food' of my youth (basically the worst of 'English Cusine')?

No way!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

". . . you're temporarily out-of-tune with your 'frozen bubble in time'. . . ."

As to lady penelope and me fitting that characterization, I think it's pretty obvious to all who it really fits.

WAV, I don't know what you mean by eco-travel (yes, I do know what eco-travel is) and fair-trade through whatever means. I have been a supporter of the United Nations from its very inception, and my support is not just lip-service. I've lent my talents and abilities to the United Nations on a number of occasions. But I also see the formation of the European Union as a step forward in attempting to civilize the Planet Earth. I, too, am opposed to the policies of some nations (particularly the United States, but with the support of England and other countries) regarding capitalistic, economic—and military— conquest. But I don't know what you mean when you say this. You certainly don't make yourself clear.

As to the matter of immigration/emigration, it has always occurred, and when people move from place to place, they bring parts of their culture with them. Their motivation for moving is often to seek a better life, but it is quite natural that they would want to bring the good aspects of what they left behind with them. They may become integrated into the culture to which they have moved, but some of the culture they bring with them is integrated along with the people themselves.

And this is a good thing. Otherwise, the host culture becomes static, and static cultures wither and die. Introduction of new elements into a culture, whether from the outside or from within are what keep it alive and growing. Multi-culturalism introduces people to new options. Both realistically and allegorically speaking, it increases the menu choices for everyone.

If you are as schooled in anthropology as you claim to be, you should know this—and accept it as a fact of life on this planet.

There is a line from a German play (often erroneously attributed to Hermann Goering, for some strange reason), regarding the touting of a particular culture. Because the person making the statement is aware of the dangers in culture-worship, he says:

"When I hear the word 'culture,' I reach for my pistol!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

But where does nationalism fit in?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

Maybe the UN can commission you to produce the Volgadon Standard English Dictionary; as well as replac(it's not S is it?!)ing the free global market economy with a regulated one, such that we humans still have the incentive of an economic-ladder to climb - but without the ridiculous inhumane inequality that capitalism produces.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

practice=noun; practise=verb

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM

sorry, fair, but please do elaborate, and both both practiCe and practiSe appear in English records of the 18th century.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Fair, NOT "free", trade - via UN REGULATIONS, Volgadon..."Liberty, as sufeit, is the father of much fast," (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).
And, by the way, it's practiSe here and practiCe in the USA!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM

WAV, all the American spelling conventions can be traced to English sources.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

WAV, why didn't you answer my recent questions, such as outlining your plan for nationalism with free trade?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

It's defenCe, IE, and for anyone who missed the American-spelling debate on an earlier thread...

Poem 149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry WAV, I thought someone with 4 technical certificates, a BA degree in humanities (majoring in anthropology with distinctions), shoestring travel through about 40 countries, A-grade junior football and tennis, would know how to spell defence and assylum properly. (defense and asylum)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

Yes, IE - others here have IN THEIR DEFENCE against false criticism such as "a senseless argument with someone who will not listen." (DB).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

Listening to others means having discourse WAV, and answering questions, not endless touting of ones "academic" credentials. Have YOU ever seen anyone else on here mention their credentials? Think about it. Even bearing in mind your blessed credentials, you obviously didn't learn debate, and keeping the self promotion to a minimum.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

"Why do people keep falling into this trap and prolonging a senseless argument with someone who will not listen"...4 technical certificates, a BA degree in humanities (majoring in anthropology with distinctions), shoestring travel through about 40 countries, A-grade junior football and tennis, etc...how on earth could someone achieve that without listening to others, Dave?
I Just LISTENED to a heavily Americanised "Songs of Praise" (BBC) and was disgusted, frankly.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Dave (Bridge)
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Why do people keep falling into this trap and prolonging a senseless argument with someone who will not listen

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:40 AM

But the earliest refference is Pepys, who calls it a Scottish song. Does that mean that Englishmen who sang it weren't practising their own culture? Consistency, please. What is the difference between that and performing an American song?

What do you think about Noel Coward, is his music English?

PLEASE EXPLAIN in more detail what you mean by nationalism with fair-trade. Who knows, if it's a good idea, we might support it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM

I got the English version of Barbara Allen from Dig. Trad., Volgadon, which also says: "The English and Scottish both claim the original ballad in different versions"; and I like such DIFFERENCES, as I love our world being multicultural, and I wish for it to remain so.
It wasn't 1930, LP - as I say, in the 1950s less than half a percent of our population were immigrants, and, whether or not we like it, it's silly to deny the mass immigration and rapid changes since then.
And, as with Don, above, you're temporarily out-of-tune with your "frozen bubble in time" - that surely, also, is a far cry from my "olde olde blend of mostly European cultures" (above). But what I keep stressing is, given all the conquest and immigration that has occured around the world, the best FROM NOW ON is nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN - instead of yet more conquest and capitalist/economic immigration/emigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

I'm sorry, I just don't understand where you are coming from WAV. You do a lot of shouting about English culture & heritage, but refuse to aknowledge how England came about in the first place. You seem to have this vision of England being a frozen bubble in time, made up of the bits you like, taken from history, some where vaguely between 1100 CE to 1930 CE.

I was born and brought up in London. I've spent all my life in England and I dearly love the place. But the England and the culture I grew up in appears wildly different to the english culture you keep harping on about. More to the point, you keep trying to tell me what is and what is not my culture.

Whilst I appreciate that you wish to promote parts of my culture that have dwindled, you do it in a blinkered and frankly offensive way. I see little difference between your denial of the evolution that brought England to it's path through history and that of what used to be called the National Front, who also seemed to think that at some point there was a race of Englishmen and a specific culture that is English and that nothing should be allowed to detract from or change this artificial construct.

Make no mistake, I am no apologist for being English, I do think that people should be proud to be English and I don't see why it should be the 'politically correct' bone of contention that it has become. But whilst I defend the right to be English with pride, I see no reason to allow someone with such a narrow viewpoint dictate to me what it means to be English.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

So, you admit to singing a song of Scottish origins? WHERE IS YOUR CONSISTENCY?????????????????????????????????????

HOW would nationalism with fair-trade solve problems? Please expand, WITHOUT reffering to your websites.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM

I hate the imperialism of the Victorian era

Maybe you do, but it made the England you're living in now. You seem to imagine that by bellowing 'Authentic! Heritage! European!' loudly enough you can erase the last 200 years of history - it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM

"nationalism of any sort does not solve economic problems." (CB)...with fair-trade it would.
"THat little Scotch song Barbary Ellen!!!!!" (Volgadon)...the English version is among my among my repertoire.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

THat little Scotch song Barbary Ellen!!!!!