The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout

Subject: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 95 of 230: A GOOD LIFE

To fauna,
    Home-flora.
Sheep for wool -
    Fed till full.
Chooks for eggs -
    Free-range legs.
Milk from cows -
    Should well house:
Better grade
    Can be made.
Fish for game -
    Cut the pain.
Dogs for pets -
    No regrets.
And question
    Castration.

This does say
    Buddha's way,
And Blake's way:
    A good life -
For all life.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

---

The previous Walkabout thread is closed. This one is to be left open, at least until it gets unreasonably long. Since the previous thread had 1465 posts, the verse must be hugely popular. If you don't like this thread, don't support it by posting. I can't really find a good reason to close or delete it - not that I'm going to bother to take the time to read it and find something wrong with it. Moving it to the non-music section does seem to make sense, though.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

A whole new start?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

Can we just drop this now? There's a limit to the amount of attention seeking even you can do, WAV. You've posted this same bit of doggerel in another thread which is now heading for 1500 posts, so why soil the nest a second time?
Could I ask Joe or one of the moderators to lock or delete this thread, as it seems to me to be totally unnecessary.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:52 PM

No Little hawk - a whole new fart...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:29 PM

Same smell.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:47 PM

It could be worse. Much worse. Read this entire thread from its inception to the present, and you will see what I mean.

Even worse!

Then get into the habit of posting to it a couple of times every day yourselves and prolong the agony. I know you want to. ;-) Well, go right ahead. Be my guest!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:01 AM

I volunteer to be last. Let's just let this thing circle the drain a couple of times and head down the pipe. Gone by morning, never to rise again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM

"another thread which is now heading for 1500 posts, so why soil the nest a second time?" (Gervase)...I couldn't get on for a couple of days and, when I did, it was closed; and there has been more than one Weekly Walkabout thread - which have moved above and below the line so, unsure, I didn't put the "BS" in.

Further to "To fauna, home flora" (above Weekly Walkabout/poem)...

"Green gardening is native gardening, and vegetables, plus other consumables, should be the only exotic-flora we plant - as doing so can help limit food-miles, etc. By filling our other garden spaces with natives, we use less water and other resources, whilst aiding the native-fauna that, over the centuries, have evolved with them. (Even high-nectar exotics, such as Buddleia, that are very attractive to SOME native-fauna, should be avoided, because they upset nature's/God's balance – God created evolution, too, that is.)

"Our green gardens, with their vegies and natives, can be made still greener by the addition of compost heaps/bins; a wildlife pond – for native frogs, newts, etc, rather than exotic goldfish; bee- and bird-boxes, plus carefully selected feeders; rain- and grey-water vats; by growing everything organically, including thrifty home-propagation/species-swapping; and by leaving some lush untidy patches, decaying branches, etc" (from my GREEN GODLY GARDENING myspace blog).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM

What a knobhead.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

Hey, everybody needs a hobby, right? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

The word "cum" in the thread title is indicative of the motivation here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:51 PM

God created evolution, too, that is.

I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond
I must not respond

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:58 PM

So Smokey, what's the most recent gig you've been to? What did you think of Mike Harding's show tonight? Start a thread about a song, heck, anything! Or, honoured guest, do you visit for the sole purpose of adding your views here?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:11 PM

That was me resisting the temptation to add my views..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:15 PM

So... can I ask you a question?

Do you just come visiting to add--or resist adding--to the WAV threads???

Do you play or sing? Favourite ballad? Favourite band?

And why are you always a guest?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

Do you just come visiting to add--or resist adding--to the WAV threads???

Yes, at the moment, though I'm not good at resisting.

Do you play or sing?

I play, and consider my not singing as a valuable contribution to society.

Favourite ballad? Favourite band?

It's impossible to be that precise, but folk-wise I like Scottish and Irish stuff best, but not exclusively.

And why are you always a guest?

Because I'm very very idle and I haven't joined yet.

That light is hurting my eyes :-)

---

That was me, not some dastardly imposter attempting to bask in my glorious glory.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: peregrina
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

Or hide in your smoke?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 09:04 PM

Oh no, I'm busy basking in that. I likes a good bask.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:00 AM

I'm going to see Julie Felix tonight.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

Hey - who removed my refesh joke remark? What the fuck was the point of that?

---

We always remove old "refresh" messages when we find them. We remove them by the hundreds, and yours looked just like the rest of them (except for the smiley emoticon). No offense intended.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

I'm going to Sheffield for ther carols festival tomorrow. Anyone else going?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

...never been, Ruth, but I've heard good things about the Sheffield carols.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

Still waiting for the talk about cum.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

I much preferred the old glass monitors.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:40 PM

"Cum" is Latin for "with," and is a perfectly good English word that usually has nothing to do with what those of you with your minds in the gutter are thinking about. Some prudishly illiterate moderator removed the word from the thread title and messed with a few other things in the thread. I tried to put it back to its original state.
As I said before, if you don't like the Walkabout threads, stay out of them. If you don't think they should be here, appeal to Max. Otherwise, leave the poor guy alone.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:52 AM

In my opinion the WAV threads have been some of the best ever on MudCat (if you excuse some of the hysterical posturing by one or two posters). WAV might not be interested in other people's views but I certainly am, and he's provoked some excellent discussion on the very nature of English folk music.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

Yes, if anyone cares to check a writers' style manual, or suchlike, "cum", rather than "come" is the correct word in this case, as Joe says...and, for what it's worth, the next Weekly Walkabout will be posted, as usual, tomorrow...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

Oh No....Not tomorrow...
Please don't Please Please Please...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

Cum is a bit like a split infinitive. It is not incorrect English, but it is easy to avoid its use.

You could have had 'Walkabouts and talkabouts with Uncle David' which would have added a paternalistic (or avuncular) flavour to the thread.

Do you ever consult a writers' style manual?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM

As Joe points out cum in this context is standard for with and only relates to come with regards to sexual slang, where the verb to come is invariable rendered as cum, with cum, in turn, being used as a noun for male/female sexual ejaculate. In Japan it is standard to use the verb to go, though I couldn't say if go is used as a noun in the same way we use cum. This gives rise to the old Japanese joke in which the healthy old woman complains to her dying husband that once again he's going before her.

Anyone here seen 2 Girls 1 Cup? From what I hear it inspires similar levels of revulsion as WAV's poetry.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

If you don't like it, why are you here commenting on it? There are a couple of hundred other threads you could post on instead.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

It's a bit like Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells LH.

If something is interesting, read it - comment if you wish.
If something is worth sharing, - share it with everyone.
If something is wrong correct it.
If something pisses you off, - say so.
If someone is annoying, - respond or not as you choose.

Most of us respond to the negative threads more than the positive. Some exceptions.

For myself I keep resolving to ignore his walloon; then the next post is so off the wall....

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM

if anyone cares to check a writers' style manual, or suchlike, "cum", rather than "come" is the correct word in this case

I think we all, or mostly, knew that already WaV, and its Latin origins - it was just a joke, albeit a bit purile. Some of the more cheerful amongst us enjoy a bit of humour now and again. Try laughing - they say it's good for you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 05:32 PM

What is the deal here? Is this thread like some kind of virtual road accident? Can't drag your eyes away? Just look away. Look away now... Oh god... I can't Oh the inhumanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 06:06 PM

Now you're in the game zone know that there are worse punishments than Barry Manilow...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Surreysinger
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:55 PM

Stu - "For myself I keep resolving to ignore his walloon; then the next post is so off the wall...."

I assume you meant "This" walloon? But even so, this is racism and non-PC ... distinctly unfair to the inhabitants of Wallonia, in Belgium, who are the only people who should be designated as Walloons. I assume you really meant "Wally" ? (which is short for Walter ... unfair to Walters ?)

Presumably one can harbour the thought that "Tomorrow never comes" ?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:39 PM

A walloon is an inflatable wallaby.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM

You sometimes see them floating out to sea off the eastern shores of Australia.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM

That's because they don't tether them soundly.
Could this be the origin of 'Tie me Kangaroo Down, Sport?'

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 01:11 AM

Point taken Stu....

Walloon = Aussie lampoon?

Jesus,I am being sucked into the vortex.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 02:57 AM

Welcome Virginia.

(deathly demonic laughter....)

Sorry to the Walloon language. I used the word as a portmanteau word of Wally and Goon

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 04:47 AM

Stu - yes I do have a writers' style manual, which I used quite a bit as I wrote my collection...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 199 of 230: BEDE'S WORLD - WINTER 2002/3

During Advent, I returned to Bede's World,
    Where I, already read, was further schooled -
Via walks through the museum, the farm,
    The ruins, and the church with its old arm.
With gifts, I left, after some four hours,
    To round off, at home, my thoughts on ours.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM

...the "gifts", above, by the way, were excellent calendars produced by The Northumbrian Scribes.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM

WAV - please start writing poetry again. Please please please.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 04:47 AM

I'm only here because Facebook is down for maintainence...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:15 AM

Facebook is down again...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM

Ah, c'mon... you know you want it... you can't resist it... I know your sort.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:35 AM

I sometimes feel that words like 'via' and 'cum' are not part of our own good heritage, emanating as they do from Rome

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:53 AM

Well what about,e.g, e.g.? That's Latin. For E Gregious, I think.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 09:11 AM

Well what about,e.g, e.g.? That's Latin. For E Gregious, I think.

Yup - Eddie Gregious was a well-known electric lyre player in Ancient Rome - played with his teeth sometimes. Used to burn his lyre onstage when Nero was in the audience. Nero got so jealous, he burned Rome...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

Facebook trashed my list of 'send emails when things happen' option - they apparently lost everybody's - so they sent out emails...

Facebook lost my internal messages for a while - then they came back...

It seems they may have lost my login password now too ...

There are rumours that Facebook wants to start charging on a 'pay per use' basis. There even Facebook groups against this.


Why am I saying this here in this thread?


Why not?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 10:06 AM

Well it makes more sense than anything that WAV posts, so why not?
Obviously, you're having a bad "Face" day. Commiserations.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:55 PM

"WAV - please start writing poetry again. Please please please." (Stigweard)...alas, I retired from versification at the end of 2002, and began the process of self-publication, finding a way to sing some of the verses as "Chants from Walkabouts", then, just this year, working out/writing down the tunes, via mimicking my singing cum chanting on my beloved English flute...watch out for added intros next year!... ;-)>

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:30 PM

Ooh, the suspense is killing me! I just can't wait...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

It's just like shooting fish in a barrel isn't it.
But he refuses to realise that he's been shot!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM

YOU are the fish Ralphie.

Ask yourself who this bothers. If it's you, and you keep doing the same unsuccessful things and whining about something you can't do anything about, if you try to indicate the pied piper is stupid because of all the rats following him around, who is the moron!?

Yeah, it bothers me too. I don't like to be reminded how willfully stupid some people can be... and then they try to blame someone else for their idiocy. 'But he MADE me do it!'

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:23 PM

Every time I open this thread, I am reminded of the kid in class while I was in high school. The bullies, and those so low in self esteem that they had to point out others faults to feel good about themselves, would have a field day picking on the poor kid. As I grew older, I realized that in a sad way, that kid was getting what he craved also. Attention. I see a lot of bullies in these WAV threads, a lot of folks making themselves feel better by attacking an easy subject, and one person who revels in it. It will all make a fascinating case study one day when the inevitable researcher decides to study the fascinating interplays on the Mudcat. But some of you won't be very happy with what they find.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

Mick,

You're a fool. You're not in anyway Irish btw.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:05 PM

Didn't Eddie Gregious write the Tiber Delta Blues?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

Didn't Eddie Gregious write the Tiber Delta Blues?

Yeah - known to aficionados as "The T.D. Blues". The Tiber Delta was, as you know, defined by the cities of Memphis, Athens and Cairo. You can read all about it in "De Bello Gallico" by the great Memphis bluesman Blind Rubber Sole.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:15 PM

Ah, you obviously know your history Mr Fly. I expect you're well aware that, being big admirers of bluesman Blind Rubber Sole, the Beatles dedicated an entire album to the great man. It's amazing how few younger people seem to know that - I don't know what they teach 'em in schools nowadays.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

Young people? Ignorance is bliss to them! One of the lesser known facts about Sole is that he was a keen bridge and whist player - used to use Braille cards (the Braille was on the front, of course, so other players couldn't read them) - hence the sobriquet "Rubber". His real name was Lemon, and he was actually born Lemon Sole. Historians tend to skate over this bit...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM

Huh. Tell that to the young people of today and they'd just look at you as if you were barmy. We're losing our culture y'know - I blame them Australians. We should never have invented world music.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:41 AM

No no, Smokey - I'm all for Good World Music. I love multifunctionalism - FROM NOW ON, of course.

But to return to the thread main topic - do you happen to know whether Eddie Gregious ever played a 12-string lyre? You know, like Leadbellious.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:32 AM

do you happen to know whether Eddie Gregious ever played a 12-string lyre?

Quite Interestingly, the Ancient Greeks had a lyre called a magadis which had doubled octave courses like a 12-string guitar and a consequence choral singing in octave harmonies was called magadising.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:44 AM

IB - good to see you with your Stephen Fry hat on!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:05 AM

"...never been, Ruth, but I've heard good things about the Sheffield carols."

I shouldn't bother, Wavey - you'd hate it. They sing in four-part harmony. And the singing has musical accompaniment, which plays more than top-line melody. And when people sing the carols in the pubs, it's definitely NOT in sweet, Sunday-best voices.

In other words, it's a living folk tradition which confounds all of your pronouncements on what English traditional music is and how it ought to be performed. And there's a wealth of historical evidence, including photographs and music manuscripts, to coinfirm that harmonies and accompaniment have always been integral to this tradition. As I know how this sort of thing upsets you, it's probably best if you stay at home.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:27 AM

Young people? Ignorance is bliss to them!

Surely you mean "they are ignorant of Bliss". In which context, I notice that his wife Gertrude died only a little over a week ago, aged 104.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:30 AM

"alas, I retired from versification at the end of 2002"

Well, for what it's worth I think you should start again, you must have the urge. I would try avoiding poems on one or two of the more contentious topics, but otherwise get writing. How can you just stop?

I don't publish my poetry because it's crap, and is a means to an end for myself only. I have put some of my music up in the internet, but that's for my friends only.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

"It's just like shooting fish in a barrel isn't it.
But he refuses to realise that he's been shot!!" (Ralphie)...I've noticed your inclination for cheap shots, Ralphie; but, in light of current affairs, at least, don't you think you should self-censor such words?

Ruth, re: Sheffield carols - elsewhere, I've attended the singing of carols (trad and known author/s) with the full score played on a piano and have liked it, thanks (singing around the piano is, in itself, a stong tradion of ours); but as for unaccompanied E. trads over the centuries, and the recordings of source singers such as Joseph Taylor, I refer you to the "Chords in Folk?" thread. Also, next year I hope to do much more recording - E. trads U/A, hymns with "organ", carols BOTH WAYS, and everything with English flute intos. (Rather than write more verse, i.e., Stigweard - I've said what I wanted to say and, whatever the quality, have looked at most major issues.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM

WF - do you happen to know whether Eddie Gregious ever played a 12-string lyre? You know, like Leadbellious.

I believe he did Will, but not like Leadbellious (not to be confused with Leadbillious or Leadbellows), who invariably played bottleneck. You mentioned Gregious' habit of playing with his teeth - you may be interested to know that he actually wrote "Bite my Lyre" on the twelve-string. Scholars tend to overlook his non-blues compositions, but in fact he wrote a right load of ballads.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:28 PM

hymns with "organ", carols BOTH WAYS

Does anyone mind if I smirk?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:50 PM

"Ruth, re: Sheffield carols - elsewhere, I've attended the singing of carols (trad and known author/s) with the full score played on a piano and have liked it, thanks (singing around the piano is, in itself, a stong tradion of ours); but as for unaccompanied E. trads over the centuries, and the recordings of source singers such as Joseph Taylor,"

Can you name one traditional singer apart from Joseph Taylor whom you've heard? He's the only one you ever mention, and I suspect the answer to my question is "no". Your response, once again, leaves you waving your ignorance like a flag. The point that's been made to you ad infinitum is that harmony singing and accompaniment have been part of the English tradition for centuries. The Sheffield Carols aren't just about singing round a piano - that is a relatively recent development. They were sung to accompaniment by string groups like The Big Set and the music was sung in four part harmony. There has always been interplay between sacred and secular music - it was the same musicians playing it, for heaven's sake, and the same people singing it. So why would they sing in harmony in church, but only sing top-line melody at home or in the pub?

You constantly refer to the individual singers collected at the turn of the 20th century - well, the photographs and manuscripts from Sheffield demonstrate that the community tradition there definitely included harmony singing and instrumental accompaniment playing different parts, not just top-line melody. Your assumption that there is only one English tradition, and that it is unaccompanied and does not incorporate harmony, is simply wrong. To suport your ideas, you refer to singers collected individually in their homes and music taken out of its natural context, when the living traditions of England stand as a testament to the fact that your absolutist theories are complete rubbish.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:01 PM

Just out of interest, WAV, how do you justify saying that society suffers when people lose their culture while also saying that some people (immigrants and Travellers) should lose their culture? Surely, as Eliza said, either society suffers when people lose their culture or it doesn't.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:40 PM

Pip, with all due respect, you're wasting your time - he knows perfectly well that his ideas can't stand up to logical arguments, so he ignores them. He knows full well when he's in a corner, and his only defence is to ignore. He knows he's wrong.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

what happened to walkabout part 3?

Stu

---

It was deleted, and Mick and I don't know why. We've left it deleted, pending a decision from Max about what to do about all the harassment and nastiness that has gone on in these threads.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:03 PM

Pip (and Smokey): I just answered you on the "Eng. Nat. Mus. Inst?" thread - the one that Eliza has posted on. And, for the record, IE, the total "Weekly Walkabout..." type threads is a couple more than 3 - the original was a "Walkaboutsverse" thread. And Stu - I don't know: the only thing I complained about was an impostor of my nickname, but the Mods may have decided that thread was also unreasonable.

And Ruth – I have learnt and made some changes via some threads/discussions, e.g. (in capitals):

"There are, of course, many ways of accompanying a song but, if we are to accompany traditionally-unaccompanied English folk-songs, we should surely keep it light; I, e.g., usually sing E. trad's U/A but, occasionally, key just the top-line melody – with the understanding that English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained people, with telling and/or dancing, via, MOSTLY, the repetition of tunes…more-sophisticated polyphony and chords being found, rather, in church and court - eventually, i.e." (from here).

"Can you name one traditional singer apart from Joseph Taylor whom you've heard? He's the only one you ever mention, and I suspect the answer to my question is "no"." (Ruth)...NOT "no" - rather than type them all out, chapter and verse, again, I mentioned Joseph Taylor, e.g., and referred you to the "Chords in Folk?" Mudcat thread; but if anyone wishes...

GOOD E. TRAD. SINGERS (some of you may remember the same title from a rival forum, where I, and others, mentioned quite a few, Ruth):

(NOT Bill Oddie, in my opinion!)...Joseph Taylor, Sam Larner...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

And ??? Who else???

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

indeed: who else?

"more-sophisticated polyphony and chords being found, rather, in church and court"

Evidence, please?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

...Shirley Collins...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

On another thread, which (mistakenly) doesn't have a BS: tag, I asked WAV:

You've said that immigrants to England should assimilate to English culture. You've also said that society suffers when people lose their culture. How do you resolve this contradiction?

He replied:

It's better, Pip, if the the land, the culture, and the law of the land are linked: one of the reasons why I think immigration/emigration should be greatly reduced/regulated via the UN, the world over, from now on; and why I think those who have should make an effort to assimilate.

The argument rests on an unsupported assertion, which (for what it's worth) I don't agree with. It also doesn't answer the question. (If you believe that it's better if etc, then you'll certainly believe that immigrants should assimilate - but they'll still be people, and so presumably society would still be better off if they maintained their culture.)

I guess that WAV doesn't actually believe that society suffers when people lose their culture: what he means is that English society suffers when English people stop practising English culture. As for anyone who's unfortunate enough to be living in the 'wrong' country, he believes that they should lose their culture - and that the law should encourage them to do so. In short, he's advocating legally-entrenched discrimination against immigrants and the children of immigrants.

Does anyone (other than WAV) still think these views aren't racist?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:35 PM

This Shirley Collins?

Shirley Collins - Banjo, Guitar, Arranger, Vocals
Nic Jones - Fiddle, Violin, Vocals
John Kirkpatrick - Accordion
Maddy Prior - Vocals, Harmony Vocals
Richard Thompson - Guitar (Acoustic), Guitar, Guitar (Electric), Slide Guitar, Guitar (12 String Acoustic)
Lol Coxhill - Saxophone, Sax (Alto)
Ashley Hutchings - Bass, Percussion, Bass (Electric)
Simon Nicol - Guitar (Acoustic), Guitar, Guitar (Electric), Vocals
Tim Renwick - Guitar (Acoustic), Guitar, Guitar (Electric), Guitar (12 String Acoustic)
Roy Wood - Vocals
Francis Baines - Guitar, Hurdygurdy
Dave Bland - Dulcimer, Concertina, Conductor, Dulcimer (Hammer)
Gregg Butler - Serp, Serpent
Alan Cave - Bassoon
Dolly Collins - Piano, Vocals
Trevor Crozier - Jew's-Harp
Barry Dransfield - Fiddle, Violin, Vocals
Tony Hall - Melodion, Melodeon
Alan Lumsden - Sac
Dave Mattacks - Drums, Stick
Steve Migden - Horn, French Horn
Colin Ross - Pipe, Northumbrian Smallpipes
Lal Waterson - Vocals
Mike Waterson - Vocals
Ian Whiteman - Piano
Royston Wood - Vocals
Roger Powell - Drums






Tracks :
Claudy Banks performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 4:37
The Little Gypsy Girl performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:15

Banks of the Bann performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 3:38
Murder of Maria Marten performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 7:27
Van Dieman's Land performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 4:59
Just as the Tide Was A'Flowing performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:12
The White Hare performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:43
Hal-An-Tow performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:53
Poor Murdered Woman performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 4:17

Just some track info...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:47 PM

That Roy Wood?

(On reflection, probably not. I'll get my robes.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:55 PM

Just out of interest Shirley Collins received her MBE the same year that WAV started to take an interest in folk music...How about that!

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 08:11 PM

Pip (and Smokey): I just answered you on the "Eng. Nat. Mus. Inst?" thread - the one that Eliza has posted on.

Er.. no you didn't, WaV - you replied but you didn't answer. That's what you do when you can't answer isn't it? I left you some more questions to not answer though, just in case you feel like digging your hole a bit deeper.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM

I would have thought Shirley Collins's approach to traditional song to be about as un-WAV-like as we could wish; Stu points out the line-up of No Roses (Gregg Butler and Lol Coxhill? Actually it was Ron Baxter who pointed Gregg's involvement only the other night; needs must I give it a spin over elevenses) but any of her other albums tell a similar story of accompaniment on a near-orchestral scale, and even when the instrumentation is at its minimum (such as the delicious Snapshots) we find sister Dolly providing definitive & complex polyphonic accompaniment on her Flute Organ drawing on all eras & idioms of English Music and an understanding of traditional song that remains, in my opinion, unsurpassed.

You have actually heard Shirley Collins, haven't you, WAV? If not, there's any amount on YouTube. Here's Glenlogy to be going on with:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybew5DU5OIM

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:04 AM

Lord knows what David will make of "Folk Roots New Routes"! That Davy Graham - playing Indian ragas behind our own Shirley? Cor - not good for humanity...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:19 AM

I was actually asking about the source singers on whom you have based your assertions regarding the way English music has been played and sung for centuries. So far, we have Sam Larner and Joseph Taylor. I assume you are not including Shirley Collins as a source singer. Any others?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM

Sam Larner

Just watching the old Sam Larner & Harry Cox documentary the other week with Ross; I have it in my keeping on a VHS cassette with a rare pile of Peter Bellamy interview & performance footage. One of my favourite of the old East Anglian singers was Bob Roberts who accompanied himself on the melodeon, chords and all. There's an article about him Here and I remember seeing some concert footage of him (at Sidmouth?) on the BBC years ago - the sort of thing one hopes might turn up on YouTube one day...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:03 AM

It's no good telling WAV these things, his mind is already made up, don't confuse him with truths and facts. [ when I say ' made up ' I really mean CLOSED ]

He reminds me of Margaret Thatcher, if a million people said white and she said black, everyone else was wrong.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM

"Can you name one traditional singer apart from Joseph Taylor whom you've heard?" (Ruth 02.12.008)..."I was actually asking about the source singers on whom you have based your assertions regarding the way English music has been played and sung for centuries." (Ruth 04.12.2008)...may I simplify it for you then, Ruth, and say that most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard.

Subject: RE: The Weakly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard.

What a stupendous effort you've made WaV - it's a wonder your brain hasn't exploded with the pressure. No wonder you're so knowledgeable on the subject.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:23 PM

'most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard.' WAV; you were asked to NAME the source singers you have heard; names please!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

"most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard."

So, pretty much nothing at all. As mandotim says, I asked you for names. If this is the way music was played and sung for centuries on WHICH SPECIFIC source singers are you basing your evidence?

By the way, tyhe term should be "has broadcast", not "has broadcasted". Do keep up, old bean.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

Aw give him a break - it's hard graft, is switching a wireless on. Technical qualifications are required.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:24 PM

"By the way, tyhe term should be "has broadcast", not "has broadcasted". Do keep up, old bean."

By the way, the spelling should "the" not "tyhe". Do keep up, old know-all.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:36 PM

"By the way, tyhe term should be "has broadcast", not "has broadcasted". Do keep up, old bean."

By the way, the spelling should "the" not "tyhe". Do keep up, old know-all.

Presumably you mean to say "the spelling should be "the" not "tyhe." Perhaps we should all keep up... :-)

PS: One beneficial effect of all this is that I make damn sure I check my posts with the "Preview" box checked first!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:38 PM

(muffled titter)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:41 PM

Geez..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM

Bugger - that'll teach me to take on the Mudcat Mafia.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:44 PM

As my posts about this thread have now been removed, for some reason, here's Mick's again.

RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Big Mick - PM
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:23 PM

Every time I open this thread, I am reminded of the kid in class while I was in high school. The bullies, and those so low in self esteem that they had to point out others faults to feel good about themselves, would have a field day picking on the poor kid. As I grew older, I realized that in a sad way, that kid was getting what he craved also. Attention. I see a lot of bullies in these WAV threads, a lot of folks making themselves feel better by attacking an easy subject, and one person who revels in it. It will all make a fascinating case study one day when the inevitable researcher decides to study the fascinating interplays on the Mudcat. But some of you won't be very happy with what they find.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:54 PM

Boomerang!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:58 PM

Walkabout 3 vanished Lizzie, together with all the posts. Perhaps there is a reason. But why not let Big Mick repost his thoughts himself?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:01 PM

Kylie!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:09 PM

At the risk of being boring and repetitive myself, this is what I've posted in the "England's National Musical-Instrument" thread:

---
Strange as it may seem, I believe that David is absolutely entitled to hold the views he holds - we do, after all, still (just about) live in a democratic country - and he can think and speak as he likes. It shouldn't be any other way.

However, David chooses to promote some views which are felt to be abhorrent by many on this forum - in thread after thread. He pushes them in our faces. I wouldn't even mind that, IF - and it's a really important IF - he would accept the challenge of honest debate and substantiate, with hard evidence, the views he holds.

I would also prefer a moving target - God knows it would be far more stimulating. The crux of it all is whether you think that the constant promotion of these views matters or not. Do you stand back, shrug your shoulders and say, "Aw, what the hell, he's harmless enough", and metaphorically walk away. Or do you say, "It's insidious, and ultimately detestable - and not harmless." And then you don't walk away. The fact that the whole business becomes tedious and repetitive is perhaps the price for not walking away.

That's the point.
---

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM

There's a difference between a typo and not actually being very good at English, Stiggy, old sprout.

And I don't set myself up as a poet, who should at least have some mastery over the language they are attempting to use as their tool.

Don't even get me started on the random hyphen generator...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:22 PM

Actually, that is pretty close, Will Fly, but not totally there. Those are your choices, and which one you follow doesn't matter to us. But when the attacks go ridiculously personal, when the comment on the poetry, prose, and opinion, simply amounts to piling on, that is where the problem comes.

Thread closures come when a thread descends into the realm of ignoring the issue and attacking the person. In this case, an over zealous Moderator closed the thread because they were exasperated with the originator, and with the know it all bullies. What should have been done was simply to delete the posts that don't comply with the minimalist policies we have. The petty sniping stuff I have seen earlier in the thread deserved deletion. The stuff in the last 10 or so posts doesn't rise to deletion level, but we are keeping an eye on it.

And yes, you should all use the Preview button before posting. When you are feeling nasty, type your post, then go play handball or something, then come back and read it and see if you really have to post the nastiness. I have been doing that lately when I start to get ornery. Mods are people too, you know. ***chuckle***

Mick

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

I just checkED my spelling guide, Ruth, and it does have "broadcasted"; "has broadcasted" and "will broadcast" sound correct to me...

149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:38 PM

Mick - your points are taken and understood. The originator of the thread which exasperated the "over-zealous Moderator" was me, as I'm sure you know. Ironically, I started it as a lampoon because I wearied with the sheer exasperation of the impossibility of engaging in any serious debate elsewhere. I would much prefer the serious debate.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:38 PM

I agree Mick, but there is more to this than meets the eye. A look at the 'England's National Musical Instrument' thread will reveal why this poster has attracted such attention. Once more, this thread has contributions from some of the leading lights in English folk music who feel their music is under serious threat - check the fascist thread to see the story and you'll see why people have got tetchy.

That thread too has descended into a bit of a ugly mess, although there is some good advice on there so closing rather than deleting might be in order. Try telling people it's not nice and see what happens though.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:50 PM

Yes, I understand both of your posts. And Joe and I are keeping an eye on these things in order to not let them descend into the morass. The discussion of the preservation of English Folk Music is a serious one, and deserving of spirited debate and discussion. And it is far too serious to allow it to descend into personal attack.

I would encourage you all to stick to the issue, feel free to critique as this is why the stuff is posted here, and be passionate in your views. But stay away from the petty stuff. That will not be allowed.

Back to the shadows.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:06 PM

'Broadcast' is treated differently in different dialects and shows signs of changing with time. Since the root is from the word 'cast', one available (first choice of the OE) past tense is 'broadcast', the other less preferred one is 'broadcasted'. However, the past participle (as used above in the post in question) is only given as 'broadcast'.

So the traditional English usage would be "has broadcast"

It's not a spelling error, it's a grammatical error ie using the past tense instead of the past participle.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:07 PM

"has broadcasted" is actually the Americanism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:48 PM

Uh--not among American broadcasters, however.

Don Firth (eight years in the business)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 01:14 PM

All I need to add (until the Weekly Walkabout tomorrow) is that, all things considered, I think democratic regulationism (similar to socialism) with nationalism of a kind (same link), NOT fascism, is the best way, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:39 PM

democratic regulationism (similar to socialism) with nationalism of a kind

Now why does that ring a bell?
There was once a famous Austrian chap...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: irishenglish
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 12:56 AM

Well...imagine that. After some pretty big chunks of time over the last month, I posted something which was in jest, and something I have posted on other walkabout threads before, which was promptly deleted. Maybe its because its because I have been insanely busy at work, and haven't been on mudcat since the US election, that I hadn't noticed the current state of the walkabout threads. I posted a self written mild jab at David based on the extremely well known Fairport song Walk Awhile. Ok, I have posted this on walkaboutsverse threads before, but I gotta tell you-moderator, or moderators, that I am royally pissed. Considering that WAV perpetually answers questions put to him with the same answers ad infinitum, my use of an inoffensive joke is to put it mildly, rather infuriating. I will freely admit to losing my temper with various posters on here on occasion, but I like to think that I have taken care of that either in public or in private with the individual. Tempers get the best of you sometimes, and for those that have witnessed that and may have felt slighted, my apologies. But the deletion of such a mild post pisses me off. Its not anyones right to tell me that I should refrain from joining a thread if I disagree with it, or to stay above the BS line. I have shared a lot of jokes, and some good solid info in the year plus I have been on mudcat regularly. But the deletion of this one post seriously makes me question why I should bother. David has very backward views, is a shameless self promoter of his own work that would make even "Dr." Brinkely, for those who know whom I speak of might attest to, yet his ramblings, manifesto, life's work, whatever you seek to call it, go on, day after weary day, with little admonishment. Maybe its a good thing I have been quiet the last couple of weeks, because if I had been more on the ball, this may not have come out so nice. If I am guilty of repetition to all you who seek to prop up a man that has to defend nearly EVERY blessed thing that he writes, questionable on so many levels (women and tennis anyone-just check WAV's views about that, which are on record here)then I will admit guilt. Far be it from me, to challenge someone who holds that view with glee in 2008 and expect a hastily composed parody of an almost 40 year old song stick around on a public forum for more than 5 minutes to think that. Of course, I must have it all wrong to expect such a thing. Thanks mudcat, I'm ever so grateful. Another post lost to the dust.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 03:34 AM

In reallity, maybe it's time to pull the plug on WalkaboutsVerse, he does not stimulate any ' good ' debate, he generates nothing but bad feeling on this usually pretty tolerant messaage board, someone do the decent thing.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 05:36 AM

(If I post the same replies "ad infinitum", IE, it's because I receive the same accusations/insinuations ad infinitum/ad nauseum - e.g., to Smokey this time, I hate imperialism: be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other.)

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 224 of 230: THE NATIVITY

Vis-à-vis S.C.,
    I prefer to see
Christian children's glee
    When they play-out the
Coming of J.C. -
    The Nativity.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 06:10 AM

OK David - one last time. If you genuinely hate racism (for example), why do you post such phrases as:

* "perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote" - what is the "ethnic vote"?

* "English culture is taking a hammering" - from whom? how?

You have never yet answered such questions as these directly, with real evidence, but only the self-referential links to your own website.

If you would engage in genuine debate, rather than constantly repeated assertions - and give full and considered replies to the questions about the propaganda that you continuously post - then you would perhaps not cause the frustration that often morphs into real irritation and anger with your threads.

However, it's all been asked a gigatrillion times before, so enough from me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 07:47 AM

WAV if you really have anything to say, repeating yourself over and over does not aid your communication.

I can imagine your conversations in the forty counties you visited... If you shout loud enough these foreigners will eventually understand...

Linking to your tedious website answers nothing - even if you had the courtesy or skill to link directly to the point you consider germane.

I'm still not convinced that you're not a computer program caught in an illogical loop.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM

If I post the same replies "ad infinitum", IE, it's because I receive the same accusations/insinuations ad infinitum/ad nauseum

No one has ever insinuated nor yet accused you of anything that can't be found writ large in either in your life's work or your various attempts at defending same. You are not the victim here, WAV - you are the perpetrator of a noxious & inhumanely racist set of ideas founded on lies, misinformation and general reactionary bullshit that would be worrying enough if you held such as opinions, but that you continue to promote and publish same, using this platform to do so (for whatever reason) not only justifies but openly invites the criticism and derision that you, and others (as it would appear) wrongly interpret as bullying tactics.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 01:12 PM

e.g., to Smokey this time, I hate imperialism: be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other.)

If I'm not mistaken WaV, you are the only person who has mentioned imperialism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM

Craig: 4

Arlene: 6

Len: 7

Bruno: 7

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:18 AM

Smokey, Stig, come meet by the dustbin!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:26 AM

I love mint imperials though, does that count?

"blah blah blah . . . not only justifies but openly invites the criticism and derision that you, and others (as it would appear) wrongly interpret as bullying tactics."

Ah, right.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 12:16 PM

I hate mint imperials, be they Nazi or Victorian.

Was I wrong then? Ah well..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM

I HAVE answered the latter criticisms (made, again, rather than posting any views on "S.C.") before.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

The answers seem merely to be a link to www.drivel741.com. How is that supposed to answer any question - are we expected to wade through all that crap in the hope of turning up a pearl?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 02:17 PM

Vis-à-vis S.C.,

Whilst I am irritated when manufacturers of Advent Calendars mix the religious imagery (Magi, Bethlehem, Manger etc.) with folkloric imagery (Santa Clause, holly, ivy etc.), I fully appreciate that both are essential to the integral experience of the Xmas Mythos, into which I would also introduce Dreidel spinning, and an Abundance of Fiddle-Faddle Stuff, Raw-Heads, Bloody-Bones, Buggy-Bows and suchlike Horrible Bodies. And I'd say kids experience more glee at the coming of SC than ever they do at JC - I know I certainly did - and still do. Otherwise - we're celebrating a many-layered festival here, which has the capacity of carrying us back even beyond the coming of JC, who only did so (on this day anyway) because of earlier calendrical associations which still might resonate wondrously with us SAD-sufferers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 06:39 PM

I HAVE answered the latter criticisms (made, again, rather than posting any views on "S.C.") before.

As usual you didn't answer, you merely replied, with minimum effort and utter irrelevance.

Regarding "S.C." (the 'poem'), I didn't like it and I don't agree with it - but that's no more than my opinion. I find your preference for Christian children a little offensive too. Santa Clause is a bit of harmless fun, whereas religion is a rather different kettle of fish altogether, whatever one's leanings may be. For me, it's too contentious a subject for the current environment.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

Christian children's glee

There is a deep and disturbing analogue underlying this poem which perhaps reveals the full extent of WAVs assimilation into English Culture as he absorbs the occult archetypes and eldritch ambiences only to regurgitate them as he takes his part in the collective cultural Zeitgeist. I mean, of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asq7TW4bRBU. In fact, much of WAVs poem could be sung to the same tune. The horror, the horror...

Now, forgive me, but needs must I now go and throw up. For the rest of you, here's the antidote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzTw4PYfROU

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 12:30 PM

...is the first of IB's links mistletoe and mime?…I never watch the X-Factor but it made the national news the other day, and before an English singer had finished singing her American-pop-style song she was tackled in an affectionate tearful scrum of fellow contestants about a metre from the mic - voice somehow staying "true"...?! And, apparently, one of the "judges" of suchlike, another S.C., Simon Cowell, is now a multi-millionaire…

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support" (from here).

P.S: "The Nativity" (above) was a Reader's Poem in Newcastle's "Evening Chronicle" about this time last year.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

There seems to be something disquietingly exclusionary about that poem.

". . . Christian children's glee. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 01:07 PM

You yourself Wavy are in no way competitive, at least as I have so far heard from you.   A truly competitive person wouldn't be sitting on their ass at your age amd living off the goverment.

So let me try once again to explain that real-world competitive people, the true hardcore types which are the best, pay only lip service to "fairness." Fair means nothing except as a place you go to see quilts, eat greasy food, and wander through pig barns. Super competitors are looking for an advantage and they really don't give two shits where it comes from.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 02:58 PM

A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible

Please define "fair" and "competition" and "strong regulations".

While you're at it, perhaps you could also explain how and where you'd like to see non-Christian children, and why.

It's because you don't or won't explain yourself adequately that people are apt to jump to the most obvious conclusions WaV, but then I think you know that only too well. You (presumably) wrote this stuff; you must be aware of the thought processes that led to you writing it - the reasoning behind your conclusions. It must be perfectly obvious to you by now that your conclusions do not stand up on their own, except perhaps in your own mind. Let us know what they are based on, then perhaps meaningful discussion of your ideas could take place. After all, that is the primary purpose of a forum.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

I have to say, I understood WAV's last poem slightly differently than some of you. I don't think he was saying he actually prefers Christian children; I think he's saying that, when children are Christian, he prefers to see them enjoying the nativity rather than Father Christmas.

Of course, the key problem is that, when WAV sees white British children, he is probably assuming that they are Christian. But many children are not. My daughter isn't; neither were her father, his siblings, or his parents. You'd have to go back to her great-grandparents' generation to find anyone with any kind of faith. I don't think this is a particularly unusual situation these days.

In an increasingly secularised society, a nativity play is a lovely bit of common folklore for everyone to enjoy, but assuming that it has a particular relevance for the participants is a misapprehension, IMHO.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 10:34 AM

I agree with Ruth Archer, very few white English people pay much more than lip service to Christianity, if even that. But on something of a related tangent, I have read some very interesting material, of which I'm sure many people here will be aware, which presents a highly compelling theory that Jesus was in fact black. I was interested enough to research this theory further, and have since stumbled upon what is I think proof that our usually pale skinned, blond and blue eyed Jesus, was in fact a dark skinned Saviour.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:17 AM

Rosie, those are brilliant - I've just watched all of them! But one thing is bothering me: as he's clearly in LA (or somewhere similar) and American, why does the opening sequence show him in Boots?!

(yes, yes, because he's omnicient...)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

Well as the geezer was a healer Ruth, I guess he has to hit the pharmacy for the odd asprin and corn plaster sometimes? Just a thought... Got to admit, though I'm a bit of a gnosticy heathen type, that trick with the 'water into Hennessey' was pretty damned cool. I'm almost moved to convert!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:52 PM

Logically, it's most likely that the appearance of Jesus would have been Middle-Eastern - despite all the ethnocentric paintings portraying otherwise.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:27 PM

We don't want this fellow living next door to us, huh WAV
Engineer's view of Jesus

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:01 PM

Yeah, interesting.   But I seriously doubt the accuracy of that depiction. However, the reasoning is certainly sound, and I'm sure it's closer than the usual depictions, which come from classical Italian Renaissance paintings. Some of the depictions on Greek Orthodox icons are probably closer.

Jesus was a nice Jewish boy, after all, until he pissed off a batch of Pharisees and Romans.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

"I've just watched all of them"

I watched the link Rosie posted. Thank you, Rosie! Bloomin' marvellous stuff. I want a full, feature-length movie! Now! But what, oh Ruth, are the "rest of them" implied by "all of them"?

Feed me! I need to see more...

Please...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:30 PM

just look to the right of the original clip, and you'll see links...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:06 PM

I don't think he was saying he actually prefers Christian children; I think he's saying that, when children are Christian, he prefers to see them enjoying the nativity rather than Father Christmas.

I think you are quite possibly right Ruth, but you've illustrated my point very well by having to say it for him.

However, I suspect that he would prefer children in this country to be all Christian, and that is what I find offensive. Perhaps he might have the good manners to confirm or deny that.

The bottom line is that he would much rather wind people up than explain himself.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:26 PM

Jesus looked like This, didn't he?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:29 PM

Nah - that's Johnny Winter.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:38 PM

It always makes me snort a bit when somebody proclaims that they have seen an image of the Virgin Mary (a stain of some sort on a building window—CLICKY #1, CLICKY #2—a stain on a concrete wall—CLICKY #3, or the remains of a grilled cheese sandwich—CLICKY #4), and then vast hordes of pilgrims come to bask in the benedictions that are supposed to emanate from such an image. When you take a look at the image, it sometimes vaguely resembles someone with a hood or a shawl over their head, but you really have to squint and use your imagination to make it work.

How do they know it's the Virgin Mary? Why couldn't it be Sister Mary Attila at the parochial school two blocks away? Or Mimi in Act III of La Boheme? Or Lucrezia Borgia? Or Quasimodo in a hoody? I think the Rorschach principle might just have a lot to do with it.

Or even in an egg salad sandwich (I'm just not seeing this one).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:10 PM

I can't help thinking that a large slice of wishful thinking is involved - 'faith'? I dunno, I never could quite come to terms with all that sky-pilot stuff, and I'm 100% against indoctrinating children with it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:42 AM

Jesus can certainly be found in some strange places for them as want to find him.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:12 AM

From s&r's link: There is the additional problem of having neither a skeleton nor other bodily remains to probe for DNA. In the absence of evidence, our images of Jesus have been left to the imagination of artists.

Surely we can get a DNA sample from his Touring Shroud? I bet it turns out he was an all-American boy from Ohio.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:16 AM

Spleen Cringe - so glad you found my contribution to the discussion 'improving'.

"Feed me!" Well at the risk of prosylatising, you might like some of the profoundly inspiring religious art here.

>poster gets her coat...<

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:32 AM

Whether you believe in Jesus, or you don't, one thing's for sure, in my outlook at least, and that's that Jesus would be pretty sad at what's going on in this thread.

His teachings were about love.

I don't see much of it in here.

I see narrow outlooks, humiliation, bullying, lack of concern for other people, lack of understanding for how the world is changing, and needs to change, along with ridicule, and at times, hatred.


Tell me, would those of you who are ridiculing Christianity, also ridicule Islam or Judaism in the same way?

Would you talk about Mohammed, or Buddha, in the same way you talk of Jesus?

Whether you believe or not, you should respect the belief of others.

The Dalai Lama says that his religion is Kindness.

Perhaps THAT is one Religion that many in here should join, be they the starter of this thread, or those who have come in here to lambast him.

The Four Noble Truths

The Dalai Lama would not be doing what is being done in here. He would, I've no doubt, hold out his hands, take David to those who have to leave their lands, to those who have no choice, let him feel their pain, get him to help them start a new life, in a country that they feel they could love, almost as much as their homeland.

He knows what it's like to have no country anymore, but...in a way, losing his country to the Chinese has given him The World, and it has given The World, the Dalai Lama.

"My Religion Is Kindness"


Four words which speak a thousand thoughts.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM

I come not to bring peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34)

Don't sound like love to me. And whatever, most Christianity since before 50AD has derived from Paul and conjuring tricks with bones, not the Sermon on the Mount.

Criticise Buddha and Mohammed? Yes. Buddha didn't mean to perhaps, but his teachings set in place a different sort of feudalism, in which vast monsateries sucked the peasants dry. Not a great deal better than being screwed by the aristocracy.

Mohammed is unforgivable in that he sought to force people's consciences- believe or die, or at least be a second- class citizen. But then almost every other religion has done the same at one time or another. Even Quakers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM

Religion...yadda yadda. I'm an equal opportunity blasphemer.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM

None of us will ever know who said what, where, or when. All we have is books written by people at the time. People write many things in books.

As Mick said a while back, when people come to read these threads, what will *they* think of the words that some have posted. Yet, most of them would regard themselves as peaceful, loving people, who'd reject no man, or woman, of any colour or religion.

And yet.......


"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:38 AM

If you have no respect for the feelings of others, then what the heck are you doing having a go at David for exactly the same thing?

It makes no sense, other than to those who persist in doing it, I guess.

I'll leave you all to draw your swords and wound, if that is what brings you pleasure.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:43 AM

Oh Lizzie. Get. Over. Yourself.

Do you not get bored with your own sanctimonious, self-righteous, shallow, airy-fairy, intellectually bereft proselytising? I know I bloody well do.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

Jesus would be pretty sad at what's going on in this thread

Well, here's something to cheer him up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NPuNPy9GbY

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:20 AM

That's one of God's creatures, IB. You're going to hell now.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:58 PM

Whether you believe or not, you should respect the belief of others

It's possible to respect people without necessarily respecting their beliefs if they are prepared to let you.

Jesus would be pretty sad at what's going on in this thread

I've often wondered what he'd think about millions of scale models of him being tortured to death.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM

The problem with the idea that the image on the shroud of Turin is that of Jesus is that various tests have been performed on the shroud, and it was radiocarbon dated in 1988 by three independent teams of scientists whose results were published in Nature. Their findings were that the shroud was made during the Middle Ages, approximately 1300 years after Jesus lived.

Advocates of the idea that the shroud of Turin actually was Jesus' shroud squawked like a flock of angry ducks and they still carry on the argument, but science is science. . . .

The only "evidence" they have is that the image on the shroud resembles the Renaissance painting depictions of Jesus—and nobody, including the artists, knew--or knows--hat Jesus really looked like.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

And Lizzie, with all due respect, rather than just knee-jerking, you might notice that a lot of people on this and other related threads have been attempting to offer good musical advice to David—in vain, unfortunately, because he simply rejects it. But most of the people are objecting to David's rather despotic political ideas.

If someone advocates bigotry in my presence, I speak out strongly and immediately. Not to do so can be construed as agreement.

This is not necessarily the hate-fest you seem to think it is. Perhaps you need to re-read some of the posts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

Yup, I guess you're right, some are free to be as bigoted as they choose, whilst verbally hanging, drawing and quartering their prey. Let them bash Christianity and ridicule Christ, to hell whether it offends anyone.

But if their prey dared to do the same about Islam and Mohammed, then he'd probably find that hanging, drawing and quartering was the *easy* option.

One rule for the hunters, another for the hunted.



There is bigotry on *both* sides here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:17 PM

Tell me, would those of you who are ridiculing Christianity, also ridicule Islam or Judaism in the same way?
Er, yes. As an atheist, to me they're all fair game.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM

Where is the bashing and ridiculing of Christianity?
In the eye of the beholder, I suspect.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

There are some excellent guidelines to living decently to be found within the writings of many religions, including the New Testament. And also some extremely beautiful and moving mystical writings too. Try the deeply spiritual writings of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart for example. Unfortunately for him the Pope tried him as a heretic. Bummer. Jesus amongst others is of course a good example of a guy who made some pretty decent suggestions, much of it in line with Buddhist philosophy. Such a pity that the Church went on to completely ignore those dead simple guidelines in favour of centuries upon centuries of monstrous policies of hatred, torture, extortion and murder. May Christ forgive me, for not really liking some of the organisations that chose to lay claim to him as a figurehead, and the crimes they went on to claim to commit on his behalf. But then, I don't think Jesus had a lot of say in all this, after all I always had the idea he never even wanted to start a new religion at the time he was alive, let alone posthumously. Spiritual people can also have a sense of humour. And personally, my guess is that after all the unbelievable bullshit that's been perpetrated in his name, Jesus could no-doubt do with a bloody good laugh, just like the rest of us...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM

I'll repeat:

"Do you not get bored with your own sanctimonious, self-righteous, shallow, airy-fairy, intellectually bereft proselytising? I know I bloody well do."

But raise you a "tedious" and a "pompous".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

Motes and beams, there, Lizzie.

For the things that have been done in His name, there is ample reason for the weeping of Jesus.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM

Yes, indeed there is reason to weep, Don. For God also, whomsoever your God may be. But some weeping is also caused not in the name of Jesus, but in the name of those trying to score points, come up with the cruellest put down or the most spiteful words. To be honest, it's like water off a duck's back to me, as I've had it hurled at me for so long, particularly by one poster in here, that it ceases to upset me, but I know what it's like when the situation becomes 'All Against One and One Against All' Those who choose to join the bullying pack, baying for blood, do so of their own free will.

These threads would stop if you all stopped, or haven't you worked that one out yet? But maybe neither side wants them to stop, because, as Mick said, just like in the playground, each side gets something out of the situation. I personally don't think anything good is coming out of either side, that's all.

But...it's still a free country, so you all carry on, for as someone so sweetly stated above, I am 'intellectually bereft'....and if that means that I am unlike some of those in these threads, then all I can do is get down on my knees and thank my God.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM

There seems to be a distinct whiff of burning martyr on the air this evening.

Participation is not compulsory.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

Sorry - did someone say something?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:30 PM

I can almost hear WaV laughing his socks off from here..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:03 PM

Be of good cheer.

A heavy dose of Christian Indignation allows one to lash out angrily and vent a measure of pent-up free-floating animosity, while at the same time letting one enjoy the hubris of feeling self-righteous.

I've seen this manifest itself many times. To the habitual victim of this condition, it's kind of like a drug fix. . . .

But being a fairly regular church-attendee myself (a fairly liberal Lutheran church), I know that not all that many Christians are given to this kind of self-indulgence.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM

Lizzie, there are two persons whom I admire very much for the stands they took. They were undeniably Christians (both pastors), and when confronted by manifestations of tyranny and despotism, they spoke out against it with vigor and with considerable danger to themselves. It would seem that one person's firm stand against the promulgation of a philosophy of bigotry and oppression is someone else's "hanging, drawing, and quartering" of some poor hapless "prey."

The persons I refer to are Martin Neimuller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I find both of these men very admirable for the firm stand they took. It cost one of them his life. It cost the other eight years in a concentration camp. But they stood firm.

As a Christian, you should educate yourself about them. As my pastor said, "They were willing to embrace the cross to stand by their principles."

When one hears certain ideas being advocated, it is never too early to speak out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:02 PM

Let me be clear about this, however:   David has the right to advocate whatever philosophy he chooses. But I, and anyone else who disagrees with him, has the right to present a refutation of his ideas.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:06 PM

I know what you mean about 'Christian Indignation' Don - I see it as a rather blatant sign of insecurity about one's beliefs, but to be fair I've seen the same thing from atheists too.. I'm an aleprechaunist by the way.

Thanks for the links, sound chaps, the pair of 'em. Often wondered who wrote that bit everybody(?) knows.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM

Well, actually, I'm an atoothfairyist as well. And I have serious doubts about the existence of Bill O'Reilly.

My concept of God? That would take a little explaining, but certainly not the cranky old man with a beard in the bed sheet living up on Arcturus 12 who keeps list to see who's naughty and nice, marks the fall of every sparrow, and hurls lightning bolts at sinners.

The reason I started going to the church I do is because the pastor and I can have some very good discussions. More often than not, I play "Devil's Advocate," and he seems to enjoy the conversations. Believe me, I ain't no evangelist!

As to knowing the mind of God? If there is such an entity, He, She, or It is so far beyond our comprehension that there is no way we can "know the mind of God." In some circle's I'm notorious for telling evangelical and fundamentalist types, "Your God is too small!"

These folks have to have everything cut-and-dried. They can't stand mystery, and that's what religion is all about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM

Not to be too Carl Saganish here, but considering the billions of stars in this galaxy and the billions of galaxies and the distances between them and all that, how the hell can anyone have ANY concept of god?

Faith you can have if you desire and indeed is necessary for any religion but a concept and knowledge of some god? Gimmee a break here..........

Yet this is where the true agnostic and the atheist may well disagree. I have no more proof that it is impossible to have a god than proof it is possible. Either stance must rely on and be supported by faith.

I ain't got none...........

Whatever your religion or belief I hope it makes you feel good and brings joy or at least adds to the meaning of your life. That's the role of religion it seems to me. My small request is that none of it be inflicted upon Ol' Spaw...............

Thanks in advance,


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:25 PM

An atoothfairyist? Come on Don, you'll be telling me Santa doesn't exist next. Wicked heretic. I suppose you get your kicks out of persecuting poor young toothfairyists - does it give you a smug warm glow of superiority to see their tearful little faces whimpering with disappointment? I'm surprised you can sleep at nights. Monster.

On the other hand, there is no conclusive evidence for the existence of leprechauns. And they're not English.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:01 AM

I don't have 'religion' Don, never have had. I have faith, but one that belongs to only me, not to any category. I simply don't like the ganging up that goes on in these threads, that's all, nor the hypocrisy I see, in that some people feel they have the right to say whatever they want, and yet have the view that others don't. You can argue a point without becoming vicious. This is *not* directed at you personally, but generally, to those who've perhaps got a little carrried away in the past, that's all.

The reason I picked up on the Christianity bit was to make a point. That point being that for some strange reason Christianity has become the *one* religion that so many feel they can kick, insult and make fun of, yet if the very people *they* are belittling dared to behave in the same way about *other* religions, all 'racist' hell would, I have no doubt, break loose.

*That* was the point.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:10 AM

Bollocks Lizzie. As I pointed out, all religions I've been able to think of so far have similar flaws- their morality only applies when they haven't got the power to dominate. Christianity just happens to be the one that's trying to dominate the USA, and therefore impinges most on the world. And "honest simple believers" play the role of the "useful idiots" who really believed in Soviet communism.

Smokey- you're treading on dangerous ground. Not believing in leprechauns? I was banjaxed by them once, I only saved myself by turning my coat inside out and reciting five Hail Marys, an Our Father and a Glory Be.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM

"That point being that for some strange reason Christianity has become the *one* religion that so many feel they can kick, insult and make fun of, yet if the very people *they* are belittling dared to behave in the same way about *other* religions, all 'racist' hell would, I have no doubt, break loose."

Oooh, I feel another Daily Mail headline coming on...


"Whatever your religion or belief I hope it makes you feel good and brings joy or at least adds to the meaning of your life. That's the role of religion it seems to me. My small request is that none of it be inflicted upon Ol' Spaw..............."

Loving your work there, Spaw. I'd add "that none of it be inflicted on my child, especially while she is being educated at a state-funded school," but in the UK that's a bit of a conceptual leap.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM

"Bollocks Lizzie."

How eloquently put, Paul.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM

but considering the billions of stars in this galaxy and the billions of galaxies and the distances between them and all that, how the hell can anyone have ANY concept of god?

Too right - and yet scientists still speak of the overarching laws of physical nature, none of which make any sort of sense to my non-mathematical brain. To what extent is science the new religion anyway? It seems to operate on similar levels of faith and dogmatic certainty and occult mystery that might justify the billions spent on the Large Hadron Collider which I imagine future generations puzzling over much as we might puzzle over Stonehenge.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

PS - When I was a kid I used to work myself up into knots with various paradoxes, the most persistent of which was do with why things work. For example, if televisions, remedies, steam engines, trumpets, and loudspeakers (for example) aren't found in nature (and are therefore unnatural) - why do they work? Then I thought that because such potentiality existed as part of the natural scheme, then that fact alone betokened the existence of some benign creative force who had inbuilt such wonders, albeit hidden away, much as we hid Easter Eggs from the little ones, so we might delight in the look of joy upon their faces when they discover them. Then I thought that it's all a myth anyway, given that the only absolute is the anthropocentricity which will forever forbid us from attaining a position of True Objectivity, no matter what...

These days I might use this as an argument against homophobes who justify their irrational hostility by maintaining that homosexuality somehow isn't natural and therefore represents a perversion of some Holy Law of Naturalness, God-given of course. I think it was Huysmans who wrote God might well have created Man, but Man, Sir - Man invented the steam engine!

I'm just off to open today's door on the advent calendar...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM

"It seems to operate on similar levels of faith and dogmatic certainty and occult mystery"

Not really. Scientists are taught to question everything, even their own findings and never take anything for granted. They are of course subject to the very human failing of occasionally being wrong, opinionated or political but the who isn't? The reason scientists are so dismissive of religion generally is that it doesn't question all (Buddhism being an exception but relies on blind faith and ignorance).

I do believe that humans are spiritual creatures however and I once read something that for me summed it all up (I posted this here back in 2006):

We know the universe thinks because we think. Our very being is made from the raw materials the rest of the cosmos is made from - the same molecules and elements that make stars, comets, planets and galaxies. If at the most basic level we are simply the result of self-replicating molecular chains coalesing together to form complex biological machines, if our thoughts and emotions are simple a series of electrical impulses firing neurons and jumping synapses, we can think, see and feel.

We and life on our planet are the universe made conscious - and we can contemplate ourselves and our environment. This thought in itself is quite awesome in the truest sense of the word (as opposed to Bill and Ted's sense). It doesn't require a divine being to create us, it provides a far more sound basis for a moral and ethical framework than any religion which by it's very nature is trying to forward it's own agenda. It respects the sanctity of all life whilst acknowledging the role of science and the arts in our development.

This whole idea is based on what many would call cold, hard science, but the spiritual dimension to the concept is evident, and far more powerful that anything you could be told to believe by an priest or vicar or imam or rabbi - it is self-revelation in it's purest form. It provides a context for everything that has occured since mankind first contemplated the moon and sun and wondered what it all meant. This concept provides a context to our place in the great scheme of things that religion struggles to provide but strangely enough, sounds very religious in it's own right.*


* I can't take credit for this idea, as I originally read it in a Carl Sagan book.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

Good quote Stig. Note though that "spiritual" is very much a weasel word- it can easily change meaning in mid- argument, or even in mid- sentence. Being "spiritual" isn't the same thing as claiming that the "spirit" is somehow a separate entity from the body. The soul as a process working within the mind is worth thinking about. Like the religious soul, it has no weight, it isn't made of anything (it's really just movement), yet it contains all we are as humans. The main difference is it doesn't continue after death (ion movements and neurotransmitters need a living brain), and it can't be saved or punished except when the body is alive. There- that's one "is" that implies an "ought"!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:20 AM

"...The soul as a process working within the mind is worth thinking about. Like the religious soul, it has no weight, it isn't made of anything (it's really just movement), yet it contains all we are as humans. The main difference is it doesn't continue after death (ion movements and neurotransmitters need a living brain),...."

Really, and you know this, for certain, that the soul does not continue after death?

How do you know?

Evidence, if possible, please.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

Evidence?

- that the soul can be damaged by simple chemicals, like ethanol, and that the removal of those chemicals sometimes allows the soul to recover its previous characteristics.
- that people whose brain has been damaged mechanically can also have aspects of their intellectual ability damaged, and their behaviour sometimes completely modified.
- that electrical and mechanical impulses can induce feelings, including religious "visions".
- that no one has ever produced evidence of contact between extracorporeal spirits and humans, though many have tried and many have pretended to do so. If you can, or know someone who can, there's a million dollar reward waiting for you.

No doubt someone will say, ah but, it's the brain that gets damaged, not the soul. OK, show me a characteristic of the soul which can't be explained as a function of the brain. And living-after-death won't do, unless you can show it. And OOBEs won't do, because they can be induced in the lab. We are all to willing to be fooled at times.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:53 AM

The whole point of faith, Paul, is that *nothing* can be proved in the science lab.

You cannot prove there is life after death, True.

You also cannot prove that there is not. Also true.

Science does not hold all the answers, and it never will, ever, no matter how much money is poured into it, or intelligence, or knowledge. There is, quite simply, some knowledge that is beyond even our reach, as humans. There are things we are never supposed to know about. It's driven those with scientific minds crazy for centuries, because the **need** to know ALL the answers is the most important thing in the world to them.

But sometimes, the answer is....that there are *no* answers.

Faith is learning to accept the unacceptable, and knowing that sometimes, we are not *supposed* to know. Once you get your head around that, you're almost there...And once you let go of science, and learn to *listen* to what your soul tells you, you're there completely.

Faith does not live in the Laboratory.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

. There are things we are never supposed to know about.

Who does the supposing?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:03 AM

Lizzie. What is this soul of which you speak?
I wasn't here until 1954.....I am here now(for a bit), And then I wont be here. Whenever that will be.
What's a soul got to do with that?
When I'm gone, I'm gone...Thats it.
There is no afterlife. Deal with it!
If there is a God, Why does he/she/it allow wars?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM

The reason scientists are so dismissive of religion generally is that it doesn't question all

Yes. I have periodic arguments with my son, who's 13 and (in his words) a theist. He thought the Big Bang was his trump card (something must have caused it) - but, as I pointed out, scientists are quite happy to say that something caused it and we don't know what. To say we don't know what caused this, so it must have been God... well, to me it just takes all the wonder out of life. Something started it all, and we don't know what - isn't that amazing?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:33 AM

The essential element of the happy agnostic is the wonderment of NOT knowing and being satisfied if that is forever the case. Should a definite proof source for "no god" show up or if he one day popped up out of the pea patch, that would be just fine. But if neither happens its okay with me. Many theists and atheists alike seem determined that my happiness can only be complete by whichever they support. Reality is sorta' like the Gordon Liddy story........

Remember Gordon Liddy? One of Nixon's minions of Watergate fame? Liddy did this thing to prove his machismo to those he would employ by holding his hand over a candle flame until the flesh burned and charred. Someone once asked him what the trick was. Liddy replied, "The trick is not minding."

I don't "KNOW." I don't mind.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

"But sometimes, the answer is....that there are *no* answers."

Ignorance is bliss.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

Just had random echoes between 'myth' and 'mirth', resounding through my head. Bluddy 'ell, only Trickster Gods know why...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM

I wasn't here until 1954

An auspicious year for a folkie to be born, Ralphie. I myself didn't get here until August 1961, only a month or so before Chico Marx departed, but it's nice that our paths crossed however so briefly in this realm of shadows. Before her stroke, my mother let slip that she once saw Chico at the Sunderland Empire, though not, of course, during November 1960 - what I wouldn't give to be the bastard son of Chico Marx.

Twice in my life Don Cherry smiled at me; I've also smoked cigarettes with Marshall Allen; when I was 15 I received a letter from Daevid Allen; when I was 5 I shook hands with Jimmy Clitheroe; during his reading at the Durham Literature Festival a few years back Vic Reeves used one of our Handy Andys to stuff up his mouth to do the voice of Inspector Fowler, The American Eagle. For those of us without religion, such bessings are worth counting.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM

200

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:15 PM

Excellent quote, stigweard. Do you happen to remember which of Carl Sagan's books it's in?

Don (long time Carl Sagan fan) Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:29 PM

"Who does the supposing?"

Whoever it was who gave us the question that has no answer.


"What's a soul got to do with that?
When I'm gone, I'm gone...Thats it."

How do you know that?


"There is no afterlife. Deal with it!"

I have no need to deal with something in which I don't believe. I believe there is an afterlife, and I believe there have been many lives before.


"If there is a God, Why does he/she/it allow wars?"

It is we ourselves, as a species, who create the wars. Things happen, sometimes terrible things happen, but you cannot blame 'God' for those things. That's opting out of human responsibility.

"Ignorance is bliss."

I wouldn't know, I am not ignorant.


"..Should a definite proof source for "no god" show up or if he one day popped up out of the pea patch, that would be just fine. But if neither happens its okay with me..."

The thing is, no evidence will *ever* show up. It just takes so many scientists all their lives to work that one out.

:0)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:54 PM

"It just takes so many scientists all their lives to work that one out."

Well, I think they already have worked that out, and most scientists, including those with a religious bent, are smart enough to keep those concepts separate. "There is evidence for this, so I'm pretty sure that it's true. There is no evidence for this, so if I want to believe it, I have to take it on faith."

Soul? I don't know what that is. Awareness? Consciousness? Yes, of course. But are they the same thing? I don't know. Neither, for that matter does anyone else.

As to an afterlife, this is also a matter where I chose to "let the mystery be." I cannot conceive of the idea that my consciousness will not continue after I fall off the twig. And I think this is the same with everyone, hence the persistence of a belief in an afterlife (including many elaborate scenarios about what it will be like). Yet we lose consciousness when we sleep. The confusing part of it is that we regain it (most of us do, anyway) when we wake up.

I don't sweat the matter of an afterlife for two reasons:   first, I can do nothing about whether there is an afterlife or not. What is, is. Second, when my time comes to shuffle off this cortal moil, if there is and afterlife, it will be a whole new adventure. If there is no afterlife, I will have no longer have a consciousness with which to be disappointed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM

Ah. To complete the possible alternative theories in my second paragraph above, "Also--if there is no evidence for this, then I cannot necessarily say that it isn't true. All I can say is that I have no evidence."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 05:54 PM

LizzieC - Really, and you know this, for certain, that the soul does not continue after death? How do you know? Evidence, if possible, please.

That is a logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. If you have no evidence don't make the claim in the first place. The only possible evidence for the non-existence of something is the complete lack of evidence for its existence.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

What I want to know though, is where the toothfairy gets her money from. Is that one of those things that we are just never meant to know?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:44 PM

I think she gets her silver dimes from the same place that the Lone Ranger got his silver bullets.

Don Firth

P. S. A question just occurred to me:   regarding the silver bullets, did the Lone Ranger have a pathelogical fear of werewolves?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:49 PM

"The only possible evidence for the non-existence of something is the complete lack of evidence for its existence."


Sigh...

The 'evidence' is out there waiting for you in bucketloads, but first...you have to die. :0)

This does of course, make it slightly tricky to write up a 100,000 word scientific thesis on the matter, but, that's just the way it is, and it ain't *ever* going to change.

Half Empty
Half Full

No Evidence, therefore no Existence Whatsoever
No Evidence, therefore Absolute Faith

Whichever feels right, I guess.



And the Tooth Faery's money supply? You tell me you don't know where she gets the money from, but you know that souls don't exist????

She gets it from the Faery Jewellers, who need tiny teeth to make the necklaces, earrings, bracelets, brooches and tiaras, so beloved by Faeries. They make silver castings from them. The teeth have to be perfect though, no cracks or chips from where they've dropped..and that's why you always need to leave the tooth in salt, so the Faery can get a far better grip on it when she flutters in.

You don't believe me?

Notice the Tooth Tiara

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

Sigh...    The 'evidence' is out there waiting for you in bucketloads, but first...you have to die.

I think that's a bit harsh for pointing out a simple logical fallacy.. How then shall I die, oh wise and holy one?

I didn't say "No Evidence, therefore no Existence Whatsoever", nor did I imply it. I was simply not accepting the burden of proof, as it is most definitely yours. I cannot be expected to either prove nothing or prove an absence of something intangible which you are positing. I meant that it is impossible for me to provide any evidence beyond that which you already possess, that being an absence of it. It's a bit like accusing someone of a crime for which you have no evidence and about which you have no meaningful information, and expecting them to prove their innocence.

And the Tooth Faery's money supply? You tell me you don't know where she gets the money from, but you know that souls don't exist????

I didn't say that I know that souls don't exist either. I've never come across any evidence that they do yet though... Please don't tell me I have to die again.. WaV never used to be like that..

Thanks for the toothfairy info though, economics is not my forte, and I'd never heard of the salt trick. Firstborn has yet to lose his gnashers, and I want to do the right thing by him, obviously. What's the current exchange rate?

**************
Don - Where is your evidence that the toothfairy doesn't exist?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:13 PM

Wow! I must confess to a certain boggling of the mind!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:30 PM

I try to keep mine well and truly boggled Don..

Isn't that what minds are for?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:04 PM

Lizzie

The glass is actually both half empty and half full at the same time, so using your own analogy you must have 'Absolute Faith' in something with 'no Existence Whatsoever'..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:37 PM

"The only possible evidence for the non-existence of something is the complete lack of evidence for its existence." (me)

Actually that's not quite right.. sorry. It's possible to prove the existence of something which precludes the existence of the first thing.. But that could be construed as 'positing entities beyond necessity' :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:57 PM

Fortunately there is a great deal of evidence in support of the activity and endurance of the human spirit. Unfortunately, physicists can't apply it to molecules, so they get snarky about it.


A

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 04:21 AM

Of course, there is no-one currently on this planet who can say for sure whether or not there is an "afterlife" and those who are adamant one way or the other are deluded liars. My overriding concern is, however unlikely I believe it to be, if there should turn out to be one, that it operates on the strict principles of apartheid with WAV & madlizziecornish in one sector and me in the other.

Meanwhile, here we are in this snapshot of time in a miniscule backwater of the universe far too insignificant for any, almost certainly mythical, supreme being to be arsed about how it's getting screwed up by wilfully ignorant, self-obsessed, po-faced, tedious, pompous prats.

It's by far the more pragmatic option to take it that our short spans here is all there is. It falls thus to some to de-dross the planet and its fora. Henry Hoovers out, chaps.

If there were any god (however busy), he / she / it would surely have proscribed the sanctimonious Daily Mail and all the anti-intellectual, middle-England, moronic mediocrity it encapsulates. Small wonder that its readership harbours such ludicrous notions of what English culture is.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:01 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 154 of 230: GETTING TO KNOW GOD

God lets us go
    Our own way -
Until the Day;
    Now and then, though,
He has a Say
    In His own Way -
Prophets to Sow,
    Deserts to Pay.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:16 AM

I never pay for a desert - I just usually hve a starter and a main course...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:45 AM

As Jesus said (allegedly): My god why have you desserted me?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 06:20 AM

"Excellent quote, stigweard. Do you happen to remember which of Carl Sagan's books it's in?"

Actually, I realised my post was somewhat garbled and re-reading it I gave the impression I lifted the quote from Carl Sagan when I actually only lifted the idea, the words were mine (although how much is my original thought remains to be seen).

I'm pretty sure it came from his book Cosmos, but I have misplaced my copy so can't give you a reference.

In some ways this was the single most powerful ideas I have ever read in print. It actually allows us to construct a moral code that doesn't rely on religion at all, but hard scientific evidence. In my opinion the very idea we are the universe made conscious is far more awe-inspiring than anything man could dream up alone. It confirms the value of every life on the planet (or anywhere else), affirms it's sanctity and shows us we are all equal and don't need someone telling us we're at the behest of some omnipotent phantom.

Here is the true nature of God revealed in all 'his' glory - the living universe itself and everything in it, all it's laws and theorems. A big idea to get your head around! Sagan was a genius.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

Congratulations to David Franks. It is almost beyond belief that he will ever be able to top this one in his long list of meaningless drivel. This latest "thing".....whatever it is...... has no meaning that I can discern.

THIS is supposed to enlighten the world and show us all a better way? To do what exactly?

LMAO.....Doesn't even qualify as tripe or crap!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM

Amos - "Fortunately there is a great deal of evidence in support of the activity and endurance of the human spirit."

Where? Who has verified it? Have all other possible explanations for the observed phenomena been ruled out?

"Unfortunately, physicists can't apply it to molecules, so they get snarky about it."

I'm not surprised.


WaV - What is your poem about? Can you explain it?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Madame Ruth sans biscuit
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

Things we all must believe in now because there is no absolute evidence that they don't exist:

All cryptozoological creatures, including Bigfoot, the Jersey Devil, and the Loch Ness monster

Fairies

Dragons

Compassionate Tories

Father Christmas

The Man in the Moon

Elves

Unicorns

Mermaids


Not only must we now believe in them (simply because we can't prove that they DON'T exist), we must also construct elaborate belief-systems around all of these creatures, in whom we now have an unshakeable faith, and expect them to use their powers to Save the Cheerleader and Save the World. How they are meant to do this i'm not certain, but some things Just Aren't Meant To Be Known. *Nods very wisely*

I'm just off to pray to Trixie, the gnome at the bottom of my garden.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:58 PM

"Sagan was a genius."

Indeed!!

I remember his saying something of this nature on the Cosmos television series. It rang a very large gong in my head at the time.

I have the book. I'll have a bit of a search.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM

"My overriding concern is, however unlikely I believe it to be, if there should turn out to be one, that it operates on the strict principles of apartheid with WAV & madlizziecornish in one sector and me in the other."



"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:12 AM

' "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin'

Oh, the irony...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM

Fortunately there is a great deal of evidence in support of the activity and endurance of the human spirit.

No there ain't.

If you can get away with bald assertion, so can I.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:10 AM

In answer to the post a few above this one:

I have always believed in Faeries, Dragons, Father Christmas, The Man in the Moon, Elves, Unicorns and Mermaids.


Faeries?

Not too long ago I sat listening to Brian Froud, 'the man of Faery', when he gave a talk in Exeter Museum. An amazing man, so incredibly kind, with a very special magic about him. He believes, you see. 100%, and he believes because he's seen them. You try and talk him out of that, and see what happens. Of course, you have to have the kind of Spirit that believes in so many things that the majority of people never actually see, so not all are given access to the Faeries, or indeed the Angels. They choose you, not the other way around.

Brian sees Faeries, has conversations with them, and if you ask me, he is protected by them, infused with them (yes, Infused With Faery) The most amazing artist with more than a touch of magic in his paintings.

Brian Froud

Dragons?

Dragons have walked this land, ask St. George, and Elliot...and Barney. Just because no archaelogist has yet named bones of certain animals, 'Dragons' does not mean they've never existed. But then I still believe in The Power of Puff, and far from Puff being about the loss of childhood, for me, Puff lives on forever inside all those who never 'discard' their childhood.

Father Christmas is alive in the Spirit of giving and caring. He doesn't live in a red suit, at the North Pole, but he lives insides the hearts of those who understand that giving is far better than receiving.

The Man in the Moon shines out over us all, each evening, caring for us. He even has his own song from Reg Meuross on 'Short Stories':

The Man in the Moon

The Man in the Moon (by Reg Meuross)

"I took a walk one night just to ease my head
I had a lot of things on my mind
A lot of words that hadn't been said
I sat down on a cemetery bench
To watch the clouds roll by
Seemed to be just me and the moon
And he seemed to be staring me straight in the eye
Was it the words in my head looking for a little space
Or did i hear a still small voice
Coming from the big white face
He said

I am the man in the moon let me be your light
I will listen til the sun comes up all through the cold dark night
I am the man in the moon who do you want me to be
I'll be your friend if you need a friend bring your troubles to me

I know you're gonna say that i must be crazy
That i gotta be crazy to believe
That there's somebody up there somewhere
And he's been talking to me
Some believe in a god and a freedom of choice
I believe in the power of the light
Snd the power of the still small voice
Cos when i needed hope and when i needed faith
I looked up to the brilliant sky and that beautiful face

The sun comes up and everybody gets happy
Giving thanks for a brand new day
I can't wait til the sun goes down and i hear my new friend say
You can be blue if you want to
Talk about yourself just as long as you like
Come to me if you don't feel sunny
Everybody needs a little moonlight"


Unicorns?

Beloved of those who 'see' with their hearts, since this Earth first came into being. Hidden forever from all those who see only through science.



Elves?

They are very much alive and well here in Mudcat, no doubt you yourself have spoken to them from time to time.


Mermaids?

There is one who sits in Copenhagen Harbour, recorded for all to see. And there is another who sits here in this room with me, the only painting my daughter loves, for she feels she didn't paint it (she did). She has no confidence in her artwork, and cannot see what others see, but this painting, this was something special. She has no memory of painting The Mermaid, none at all, as she went 'to a different place' that day. By the evening, as the Man in the Moon shone his light down, through her attic window, The Mermaid had been given life, probably brought to us by a magical Unicorn, to live with my daughter and make her believe in herself. She has no memory of painting her, all she remembers is holding the painting out in the rain, through her window. Then staring at her in confusion, as she was sealed with the very water that gives her life.

The Mermaid


Compassionate Tories?

I believe that Compassionate Politicians are born, not made. They may belong to any party, and when they become its Leader, then many others of Compassion will follow them, and the Dispassionate will leave immediately. Any party who has a Compassionate Leader will go on to do great things. I have never belonged to one party, or one set of beliefs. The Man Maketh The Politician, not the Party Title. And it is the Man I would vote for, not the Party, because some people are born to lead, to turn everything around.


Those who do not have Magic in their Soul will never believe.

Those who are so bigoted that they seek to judge all men, label them, make them remain in 'a box' for the rest of their lives, will never understand.

I am no class, no colour, no political belief, no one paper reader, no scientist.

Bit I believe in many, many things which some people will never have inside them, and for that, I feel a great sorrow, for if you keep your door always closed, then you will never let those who are knocking upon it, inside.

The Knock At The Door

"When was the last time you...".......Believed?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:29 AM

"Bit I believe in many, many things which some people will never have inside them, and for that, I feel a great sorrow, for if you keep your door always closed, then you will never let those who are knocking upon it, inside."

Well, don't feel sorry for me. I have an open and enquiring mind, and certainly don't need to be condescended to or patronised by anybody who seems to think they have the answers. I'm free-thinking and will take nobody's word for anything, ;east of all the wishy-washy new-age claptrap you can see all over the place.

Here's a secret I can reveal: Most of that new-age crap is a marketing ploy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:57 AM

Show me a person who has 'all the answers' and I'll show you a very big smile, Stig.

Life's about trying to find the answers to many things...but there are some questions which no-one will ever be able to answer. But you sure as heck ain't gonna find answers for some questions if you've shut and bolted the door.

The 'new-age crap' you speak of, is actually Ancient Age Belief.

Each to their own belief, and that way lies happiness, I guess.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

"Well, don't feel sorry for me. I have an open and enquiring mind, and certainly don't need to be condescended to or patronised by anybody who seems to think they have the answers. I'm free-thinking and will take nobody's word for anything, least of all the wishy-washy new-age claptrap you can see all over the place"

Indeedio. I don't really take to being preached to, regardless of which crackpot beliefs are being pedalled.


'The 'new-age crap' you speak of, is actually Ancient Age Belief.'

More new age claptrap. Where is your evidence for this assertion?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:54 AM

"The 'new-age crap' you speak of, is actually Ancient Age Belief"

Lizzie, this simply isn't true. It's a mish-mash of ideas and beliefs culled from varying traditions or simply made up. You can't just mix and match this stuff at will - that shows a real lack of discernment. Been to Glastonbury recently (the town, not the festival)? The whole place has become a retail outlet for Disneyland spirituality, shifting lorry loads of wands, Excaliber swords and kiffy stuff. Whilst I love the colour and vibrancy of it all, most is complete tat and has the spiritual integrity of a dog turd.

Brian Froud is a wonderful artist though, even if he is away with the fairies.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:02 AM

"Where is your evidence for this assertion?"

I think it's best if you tell me, as you're the expert on these things, apparently. You tell me over and over I know zilch,
so what would be the point in me telling you anything?



From Diane:

"If there were any god (however busy), he / she / it would surely have proscribed the sanctimonious Daily Mail and all the anti-intellectual, middle-England, moronic mediocrity it encapsulates. Small wonder that its readership harbours such ludicrous notions of what English culture is. "


So, please, tell us, all us dumb muffins out here, what English culture actually is, for it would seem from your words that you are the only one who knows.

"English culture is..............

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

' "Where is your evidence for this assertion?"

I think it's best if you tell me, as you're the expert on these things, apparently.'



Ah, we're back to the same dodgy debating technique we saw earlier, which Smokey rightly identified as "...a logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. If you have no evidence don't make the claim in the first place."

So, where is YOUR evidence that "The 'new-age crap'...is actually Ancient Age Belief"?

I would echo Stigweard's post above, especially the bit about "the spiritual integrity of a dog turd."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:40 AM

If Brian Froud believes in fairies, then he's ' away with the fairies ' as the Scots aptly put it.

Never heard owt so daft since the two little girls in Shipley fooled Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:44 AM

I came here to complain about how I can't use e.g. anymore, for reasons I don't need to explain, however I would like to say that I for one have seen some spiritually enlightening dog turds. They can really teach you a lot about life, especially when you stand in them.

Don't knock those turds

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:51 AM

Ah, but you haven't met Brian, have you?

Blimey, Tinkerbell would have died, for sure, with some of you lot around. ;0)


I used to live up the road from Glastonbury, Stig...visited it many a time. I don't like the way the town's shops have been taken over either, but I tell you what, I'd rather be trapped on a desert island with many of the folk who love Glastonbury, and are 'searching' for something, rather than some of the folk in here, who seem to want to just spew out nastiness.

The Glastonbury folk are gentle people, most of whom would accept absolutely anyone. They are the Travellers, the Poets, the Storytellers, the Magicians, and they have far more magic within their souls than I see in some other towns.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:53 AM

Er...just need to clarify, for anyone new to this thread, that this:

"Ah, but you haven't met Brian, have you?

Blimey, Tinkerbell would have died, for sure, with some of you lot around. ;0)"

..related to Eric's post, a few above.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:01 AM

Lizzie, please tell me your post at 7.10 above was mischievous, ironic and witty; if I thought for a moment you were serious, I'd have to say 'keep an eye out of the window, not for faeries, dragons and unicorns, but for men in white coats'.
If you are serious, then I feel you have a huge misconception of the role of science. Science does not exist to explain everything, nor does it seek to. It tries to explore phenomena, using rigorous, valid and repeatable methods to test hypotheses which may or may not be proved true. If they are true, then knowledge is acquired. If false, then further exploration is indicated. The key difference between science and the less rigorous chroniclers of phenomena is that science has discipline and a strong system of peer review. It's nice to believe in faeries, dragons and unicorns, but it is important to remember that a lack of evidence that they don't exist is not the same as evidence that they do. If that was the case, I could say that the Great Stripy Gargle-Breathed Oojamaflip exists, and the fact that you can't prove conclusively that it doesn't means I'm 100% right. Silly, isn't it, especially since I nade it up?
Regarding New-age beliefs; stigweard is absolutely right, and there is evidence to support this. A good example is the ancient sport of Dwile Flunking, which many believe to be an ancient tradition; it isn't; it was made up one idle afternoon by the scriptwriters on 'Round the Horne'.
Finally; your comment to Ruth and Diane about your being regarded as 'dumb' and 'I know nothing'. That's what this is really about, isn't it? Make a wild assertion, and when challenged, retreat into the comfort zone of victimhood. As a tactic, Lizzie, it's old and tired, a bit like me. I'll listen and engage with your ideas as soon as you can produce a shred of testable and peer reviewed evidence for them, but until then I'll have to leave them on the shelf marked 'interesting but bonkers'.
Regards
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:04 AM

"but I tell you what, I'd rather be trapped on a desert island with many of the folk who love Glastonbury, and are 'searching' for something, rather than some of the folk in here, who seem to want to just spew out nastiness."

Well, I personally would rather spend time with people who can carry on interesting conversations about which they actuallly have some knowledge, who have intellectual curiosity, do research into interesting subjects, and who have respect for academic and intellectual rigour. And who are also happy to freely share the knowledge they've gained, often through many years of painstaking research.

Happily, I am lucky enough to regularly spend time with such people both here at Mudcat and in real life.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:41 AM

English culture is: the great Ian Dury and the Blockheads!

Perfectly English - witty, great music, unpretentious, urban and rocking. One of the greats.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:48 AM

The last time I was in Glasto, I seem to remember most of the folk there were seeking their next can of special brew. Pity 'cos the area itself is quite beautiful and I must confess to taking pleasure in indulging in the ambience generated by the whole otherworldly mythos that has constellated around the place. As for 'belief', I make it a strict rule, only ever to believe in those things that it pleases me to...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

"The Glastonbury folk are gentle people, most of whom would accept absolutely anyone. They are the Travellers, the Poets, the Storytellers, the Magicians, and they have far more magic within their souls than I see in some other towns."

Well, here's the thing I have about Glastonbury. We've been visiting the town for the odd night or two on a yearly basis for well over a decade now. I've always been interested in counter-culture (though never a practitioner) and have also had a deep interest in the indigenous spirituality of our Islands so Glastonbury seemed to be a good place to start.

In that time it's gone from eccentric to commercial, and the place is full of seekers, charlatans, pissheads and sellers. Whilst the Well and lane, Abbey and Tor retain their mystical air everything else owes more to ghost trains and medicine shows than anything with any depth or integrity. It's a mish mash, nothing more or less.

T there are places in the UK which retain a far more primeval and with more raw 'presence' (whatever that may mean) than Glastonbury ever does, and the faux-earth mothers and hairy drinkers are never there. But then that's not what they're looking for I suppose. There are stone circles in the Peak District which have a far more vibrant genius loci. Julian Cope realised that years ago, and he was right.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:03 AM

"There are stone circles in the Peak District which have a far more vibrant genius loci."

Snap - that's exactly what your post made me think of! The ones near Robin Hood's Stride? I love walking there. But I hasten to add that I have no spirituality to speak of.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:05 AM

Will - I was hoping it'd be that song, and almost certain it wouldn't. Thanks for proving me wrong!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

Will - I was hoping it'd be that song, and almost certain it wouldn't. Thanks for proving me wrong!

My pleasure! But wasn't he just the business? I saw him live in Brighton in '68 (at the old Top Rank Suite) and he was just superb. When he launched into "Wake Up, Make Love With Me", the whole joint was bouncing. To me, he's the epitome of modern Englishness - and the Blockheads were and are the musician's musicians.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM

My brain's going - '78, not '68! I saw him in '69 or so at the old North London Tramsheds in an open air concert with Kilburn and the High Roads...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM

" I saw him live in Brighton in '68 (at the old Top Rank Suite) and he was just superb."

Lucky bastard.


I see you a Blockheads and raise you a Kinks.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for The Blockheads link, Will - one of my all time favourite songs & just what we need at Christmas.

Glastonbury! Last time we were there we watched a helicopter repairing the tourist erosion on the Tor. Here's our wee video in celebration of this genuine piece of mystical engineering, featuring an appearance of one of a Glastonbury Green Man (in St. John's) as oppose to the made-up New Age shit found in the High Street shops.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=--XmMAR4lPE

Music by The Green Spiral Band - which is - er - just me actually - though we used this basic track for the Nihil Project's Weaving Wheat which can be heard on their myspace page Here...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

Stigweard - Yay, a fellow Copey. Love his tomes, though the essays are a bit dodgy at times.. I got the Megalithic European for Xmas a couple years back, and one day would love to do a tour of some of the stunning looking European sites that he covers. I think that it's his intimate engagement in what was very much a personal oddessey which makes the origonal UK volume in particular so appealing. Fuzzy photos, family, anecdotes and journal entries all make me think "I want to do that."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Chris Green
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

Ah, the Blockheads! Certainly makes me proud to be English anyway!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yIydZ0Prg8g&feature=related

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

I see you a Blockheads and raise you a Kinks.

Hmm... a Kinks, eh. OK - I'll see you a Kinks and raise you a Bluesbreakers (with Mick Taylor, Dick-Heckstall-Smith and Henry Lowther at Klooks Kleek, alias Railway Hotel, West Hampstead)...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

ah, we're at cross-purposes, Mr Fly: I was talking about bands who epitomise Englishness. I am a bit too young to have seen either the Kinks or Ian Dury live... :D

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:53 AM

ah, we're at cross-purposes, Mr Fly: I was talking about bands who epitomise Englishness. I am a bit too young to have seen either the Kinks or Ian Dury live... :D

I know - I was just having a bit of ironic fun. What could be more English than a graphic designer from Manchester trying to sound like a black bluesman, while surrounded by terribly, terribly English types! That's also Englishness for you...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:54 AM

"In that time it's gone from eccentric to commercial, and the place is full of seekers, charlatans, pissheads and sellers."


Maybe Glastonbury has more to teach you than you know.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:06 PM

"Maybe Glastonbury has more to teach you than you know."

Not really, marketing and retail don't interest me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:17 PM

"I know - I was just having a bit of ironic fun. What could be more English than a graphic designer from Manchester trying to sound like a black bluesman, while surrounded by terribly, terribly English types! That's also Englishness for you... "


I actually fell asleep during a gig by Paul Jones' Blues Band. 15 minute white-boy noodly guitar solos...I woke up during 5-4-3-2-1.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM

That wasn't what I meant.

Have you ever thought why so many of the travellers home in on Glastonbury? Have you ever thought why so many people there, the 'pissheads' as you call them, are there too?

Don't you understand that for them, Glastonbury is home. For them, it's the meeting place of others who are lost and lonely, whose lives haven't gone the way they ever imagined..and that yes, even amongst "the pissheads", there is a sense of community, a sense of belonging to *someone*, rather than being alone.

Maybe that's what Glastonbury has to teach you.

And if they've come together around a religous site, then perhaps that also is saying something. Perhaps Glastonbury is about Acceptance, and There But For The Grace of God Go I.

Why don't you stop and ask one of the 'pissheads' how he/she is, next time you're in town, ask him how they came to be there, learn their story....You might be surprised.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:35 PM

Glastonbury has become a focus because it's full of charlatans who will take anyone at face value and for whatever they can. It attracts the emotionally weak, the gullible and the 'spiritually lost' because it's full of similar people, all vainly looking for the one true path and being gulled and shilled every step of the way.
I'm sure it's been said many times before, but when people stop believing in the traditional god they don't then believe in nothing, they believe in everything and anything; unicorns, reiki healing, hopi ear candles, shamanist boswellox, crystal healing, odinism, the insane mutterings of Gerald Gardner, the tooth fairy and all other assorted faeries. Cue the extraordinary explosion of New-Age nonsense.
I just wish more people would try to refreshing intellectual rigour of being a sceptical atheist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:45 PM

"I'm sure it's been said many times before, but when people stop believing in the traditional god they don't then believe in nothing, they believe in everything and anything...I just wish more people would try to refreshing intellectual rigour of being a sceptical atheist."

Gervase, I grew up in a staunchly Catholic household, and when I rejected my faith, I rejected ALL faith. I found that, having picked the holes in one belief system, all the others were full of the same fallacies and dead ends. And once you've questioned one set of beliefs, you can't accept another without subjecting it to the same rigours.

I've tried suspending my disbelief on several occasions, but nope; I can no more believe in Buddhism or wiccanism than I can fairies and unicorns.

So count me with the sceptical atheists.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:03 PM

why don't you go away WAV, because you started a thread before and it got to long, so go away and leave us alone

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM

"Why don't you stop and ask one of the 'pissheads' how he/she is, next time you're in town, ask him how they came to be there, learn their story....You might be surprised."

Whose to say I haven't?


"Maybe that's what Glastonbury has to teach you."

Here endeth the lesson.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:40 PM

"Whose to say I haven't?"

Well, maybe, just maybe if you'd taken the trouble to talk to them, you'd have seen them as people and not 'pissheads'? I mean heck, it's hardly a pleasant name to call someone is it? Anyway, the 'lesson' has ended, you take from it what you so choose.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM

"Anyway, the 'lesson' has ended, you take from it what you so choose."

What a pompous, patronising load of tripe it was, too. I don't suppose you've learned anything about trying to shove your airy-fairy, half baked parattling down the throats of people who have made considered, intelligent choices about their beliefs (or lack thereof?)

No, thought not - just like WAV, it's Lizzie Educating The World. Interesting that two of the most ignorant Mudcat posters are also two of the most prolific and proselytising.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:23 PM

It's not just the pissheads.

It's the crackheads, smackheads and breadheads too. Not to mention the dickheads, airheads, bigheads and knobheads. And don't even get me started on the titheads, pinheads, hammerheads and yellowheads.

I, stigWeard, am a fathead.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

There are those who make a wrongly considered, un-intelligent choice to get their kicks out of kicking others, be it physically or, in the case of the internet, verbally. Either way, the decision to make that choice lies with them, as do the words.





See what happens when you don't believe in Unicorns? :0)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:32 PM

There are also those who make fatuous, ill-considered, over-long and pompous posts which imply that they are the font of all knowledge. Some of those very manipulative people also disingenuously start shit-stirring threads, or wade in to existing threads with deliberately provocative and shit-stirring posts, and then cry "victim!" when they provoke the response they were after to begin with.

You've been rumbled by others, Lizzie. Read the responses to your latest thread again. People see you for what you are.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:54 PM

"People see you for what you are."

Yes, there are some people who have chosen to see me for "what" they have been told I am, and again, that decision lies with them.

Luckily, there are also some very kind people in here, who have chosen, of their own accord, to see me for exactly who I am. Those are the only people whose words and opinions matter to me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM

they don't need to be told what you are; they clearly judge you on what you've written. Though I understand it's easier to absolve yourself from responsibility by blaming some sort of conspiracy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM

Sigh......

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

Lizzie - with all due respect, why don't you believe just whatever you like but keep quiet about it? That way, you wouldn't incite people to disagree with you, and then you wouldn't need to 'play the victim'. Everyone's a winner.

I've only one other piece of advice: don't ever take up gambling.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:43 AM

Lizzie, it's just a joke and I thought the hint of self-deprecation at the end might have given the game away.

One assumes as you post on an forum such as this you are interested in debate. I've glossed over some of the more condescending aspects of your posts which I've found quite insulting in an attempt to keep what I saw as a chance to discuss these subjects with someone with a different point of view. A closer look at some of my posts might reveal not all of my opinions are based solely on empirical evidence, but that's a subtly you missed.

I'm not interested in your or anyone else's personal feuds either, so forget it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:10 AM

"Lizzie, it's just a joke....."

Yeah, right.

It's not a joke though when you're that person, is it? The one that someone else just sees as 'a pisshead', and nothing else. And by the way, I was actually replying to Ruth's post, not yours, as I decided to let yours go, because it was way out of my realm.

"Lizzie - with all due respect, why don't you believe just whatever you like but keep quiet about it? That way, you wouldn't incite people to disagree with you, and then you wouldn't need to 'play the victim'. Everyone's a winner."

So, let me get this straight. *You* can say whatever you want, but if anyone dares to challenge you about it, they should basically shut up and stay off the board?

And as for this new 'victim' stuff that's coming out, let's get one thing straight, I have never been anyone's 'victim' nor will I ever be. That's part of the problem, in case you haven't worked it out yet, that I won't lie down and die and become a victim, or keep my mouth shut and not speak out against you.

Nope, victim I am not. Prey? Well, you decide on that one...

The reason I came into this thread in the first place, was to try to stop the, at times, vicious verbal bullying that has taken place in so many of these threads, by a small group of persistent people who seem to think that bullying and insulting anyone and everyone is their right, a huge great joke, and tremendous fun, whilst they scream blue murder if anyone stands up to them, and rally their troops to action. It's the way of the bully. I've said many a time that I don't agree with many of David's views on immigration, but that is completely overlooked, because of the desire by some people in here to insinuate that I'm racist. I'm not. So, please, just accept that, finally, and move on.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:40 AM

"It's not a joke though when you're that person, is it? The one that someone else just sees as 'a pisshead', and nothing else."

You've no idea what I see, who I am or where I came from. No idea at all.

If it's your intention to rile me, it's worked a treat. Funnily enough I always thought you were a quite a nice person whose been on the arse end of some rough talk, but I detect a quite mean streak in you.

In Buddhist terms, you are a fine teacher Lizzie.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM

Well, hopefully, Stig, I've made you think a little deeper about how words can hurt others.

And hey, if you thought I was a nice person on the arse end of some rough talk, it's a shame you didn't tell them all that a little earlier on. You've had years to stand up and say something. As it is, you've kept quiet, along with others, and sat back and watched it happen, thus making it get continually worse. I don't stand on the sidelines and worry about others think of me. If I see bullying, then I wade in and try to sort it out.

I don't like the term 'pisshead', sorry if that upsets you, but I don't. I'm friends with Andrew, our Big Issue seller in town, a really nice bloke, but one who many in here wouldn't consider 'intellectual' enough to hold a decent conversation with, or who may, on a bad day refer to him as a 'pisshead' He's not. Andrew always, ALWAYS has time for me, and for many, many others. He's just getting his life back together after some rough years. There are many with the same tale to tell as Andrew, some aren't in that place he is yet, they're still in the darkest of places.

Don't 'piss' on them!

Inside every 'pisshead' is a real person, who's hurting, very badly, Stig. So if you wanted to 'piss' me off, you said exactly the right thing. If you now choose to stand with some others in here, well, that is your choice, but I won't let unkindness go unreprimanded, whether it loses me future friends or not. And as I said before, the Dalai Lama goes by the religion of kindness, which a few in here should maybe look into a little deeper.

And now, I'm out of this thread, I'll leave you all to make your accusations as you seem fit...but just remember that I have never called into question people's intelligence, nor been deeply, personally abusive to them, belittling them in every way possible, as some have chosen to do in here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:40 AM

What is wrong? Why is everyone arguing when we could be creating some great poetry and spreading a bit of love instead of dung ...

Looking out the window (1 of a 3 part st)

Lookin out me window, tractor drivin' past (this bit is actually true)
then a white van, man, going fairly fast
slow down you van, tis a hospital site
and you might hit a patient
but he just kept on going


The Tree (2 of 3)

The tree is growing, ever knowing
what goes on underground
the grass and soil, as earthwoms toil
making those little muddy mounds, a couple of centimetres long, that people see and think 'what are those little things, those bits of mud that I can see,
below the tree


Gritting (3 of 3)

Gritting the roads to melt the ice to make roads safe to help people drive to get to work to drive the van to grit the roads to melt the ice to make roads safe to help people drive to get to work to drive the van to grit the roads to melt the ice to make roads safe to help people drive to get to work to drive the van to grit the roads to melt the ice .....


thank you for your time

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:48 AM

Lizzie just for interests sake tell all those who are unaware, why you have been banned from so many other message boards, so many times.



eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM

Joseph, I would like to see your Ode to Sara Lee again, please.

(missed you at the funeral, btw)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:06 AM

"Lizzie just for interests sake tell all those who are unaware, why you have been banned from so many other message boards, so many times. eric"

Because I never gave in to people such as yourself 'eric'

....and, do you recall the time when you PMd me in here and told me that this 'ganging up' was 'just a bit of fun', something that people did for a lark, and nothing was meant by it?   

And do you recall that I said to you how draining it was, when lies are spread about you, emails sent 'behind the scenes', to twist and spin the minds of others...that I was one against many, and those who did stand by me, stood in the background, emailing me in private, because, being very sensitive people, they could not cope with what I was having to endure on the boards?

Do you recall how ANYONE who was remotely kind to me, or about me, was driven away, ridiculed, or worse still, they tried to spin it to make others think that it was actually me saying those nice things?

You have chosen, since then, to be a complete and utter bastard towards me. That is your choice. I have no respect for you anymore, as once I did. You have chosen to stand with the many, and there, as far as I'm concerned, you can stay. I have no time for cowards.



Joe, lovely words. Thank you.


And now, as I said before, I really am out of this thread, to leave eric to wind up others, or twist their minds...and if people are so lacking in spine and spirit that they would rather stay in the shadows, whilst all this is going on, then I'd suggest that they stay there.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

I will try and dig up the ode to Sara Lee, and did I ever post the response? - I just looked and cant find it anywhere. I hope it isnt lost forever in cyberspace.

I couldnt make the funeral, due to work commitments, I heard it was pretty busy, so I can imagine the pub was packed afterwards as well ... how did it all go?

Anyway .... I will be writing more poetry shortly, as this is a walkabout cum talkabout thread. I suggest others express their views in the medium of poetry, or if not, then creative dance. Failing that, a small painting or sketch will do.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:58 AM

Jesus.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:20 AM

Lizzie, with the best will in the world, I think you possibly need to try to *relax* a little and just try to 'count to ten' before posting sometimes... :-) I think it could also be useful to sometimes take peoples posts with a 'grain of salt'. Sometimes posts are intended to be ironic or silly or simply naughty and mischievous! And forums on the internet are perfect for that kind of silliness. It's most certainly not a good place for those who take themsleves too seriously.

While you clearly have a good heart, and some of your interventions are humanitarian in intention and essence (and I too hold some similar opinions about some of the things you have mentioned - believe it or not - although the Mudcat is not the place for me to debate them!), the *style* of your writing rather seems to upset people!

For my own part, I hope you are investing some of your obvious passion for good-works into humanitarian causes in the world at large, because there is a very valid place for agitators and fire-starters out there, in many organisations who genuinely need people willing to fight for a just cause. But that kind of energy is wasted on the internet.

Whether you intend it to or not, truthfully your *style* can come accross as far too agressive, and I think it's your *style* of writing that probably helps to get you into squabbles that you don't really need to be in. I'd take that fight and passion, and invest it in far, far worthier causes, than disagreements on the internet.

For me, I'm just biding my time and trying to keep my nose relatively clean till come the 'glorious day'. Better get my sword sharpened though, 'cos with the way things are going, it looks like I aint gonna have to wait overlong now... ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:43 AM

That was me above - I lost my cookie briefly for some reason . . .

---

She's scared the living shit out of me. I don't think I've ever been quite so utterly misrepresented in terms of attitude or opinion ever on Mudcat -and that's saying something. Now I know just how WAV must feel sometimes. I love a bit of debate, but all this personal stuff is a little hard to swallow.

My use of the vernacular might be offensive to some but in the corner of the world I was dragged up in I'm not sure it carries the same connotations . . . we all liked a bit of banter.

Oh well, we live and learn.

Ta-ra.

---

Copy-posted to the non-anonymous message.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM

Stigweard lost his cookie
Whilst England lost the Cricket
Lizzie lost her patience
Whilst India took a wicket
the exact timing of events may vary
but people are getting lairy
JC's ears a burning
But still noone is learning

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

I used to work with pissheads and smackheads as they used to call themselves and each other. Some were lovely people. Some definitely weren't. Doubt they would have found Stig's use of the P-word offensive, though...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:57 PM

I've been called it enough myself.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM

Ditto that Spleen, just like every other group in society. Some alcoholic bums are charming and endearing, broken and lost damaged folk who fell through the net. While others are simply nasty vile arseholes! And of course both types can often be found in the same person at different times.
Addictions, abuse, and dysfunctions of various kinds run through my genetic stock like Brighton rock. So I'll always give a bum the time of day or at least bung them the price of a bottle of white-gut-rot (puritans avert eyes). Sometimes that's the only sense of being human they get. But I won't *ever* patronise them...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

"Lizzie - with all due respect, why don't you believe just whatever you like but keep quiet about it? That way, you wouldn't incite people to disagree with you, and then you wouldn't need to 'play the victim'. Everyone's a winner."

So, let me get this straight. *You* can say whatever you want, but if anyone dares to challenge you about it, they should basically shut up and stay off the board?

I never said that Lizzie.
You are the one stating your beliefs and then challenging others to provide evidence against them. I illustrated the flaw in your logic, that's all. My beliefs are immaterial and you don't know what they are. You are free to believe anything you like and I haven't said otherwise, so what exactly are you 'challenging' me about? So far your outbursts against me have been based on your assumptions about things I haven't said. I'm afraid I can't really see the point in that. Whatever I put on this forum is open to question, debate, criticism, ridicule and whatever - I accept that, and I'm willing to answer and explain anything I've said, but I also think anyone else contributing should accept the same responsibility.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:01 PM

"Whether you intend it to or not, truthfully your *style* can come accross as far too agressive, and I think it's your *style* of writing that probably helps to get you into squabbles that you don't really need to be in. I'd take that fight and passion, and invest it in far, far worthier causes, than disagreements on the internet."


Rosie, I appreciate your words, but, I'd have appreciated them far more had I not been the only one singled out for public telling off. There are way more people in this thread who deserve a verbal kick up the arse, than me. Read what some have said again, then realise that I responded pretty politely to some very abusive postings. What I put on there was not aggressive, it was in the beginnings of anger. I can get wayyyyy more angry than that, but I've been there, got the T shirt, made the film and upset Joe way too many times.   He doesn't deserve to have me !!!!!!!ing all over the place again, as he kindly let me return to Mudcat, which of course, has upset so many of them. There is a long history here, with some of these posters, that you may not be aware of, and it's that which makes this difficult for some people to understand. I won't go into it all again. Suffice to say, that you really need to have walked a mile in my mocassins, to understand.

Take care of yourself now, and again, thank you for the kindness in some of your other words.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:07 PM

Lizzie, your last post sounds rather like you are saying other people are responsible for your behaviour..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:18 PM

OK, keep the personal stuff out of this.

Personal attacks don't work here - and neither do personal defenses. If somebody attacks you directly, let me know and I'll deal with it - trying to defend yourself usually just makes things worse. If somebody insults or attacks you in a thread, the best response is no response.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM

Fair comment Joe - I apologise.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

The best response is poetry!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:07 AM

Hey, why just poetry all of a sudden? I thought we had various creative options before?? How do you know we're all not just 'expressively dancing' our responses here?! I've got a double dose of flue and ashma at the moment which makes leaping about rather shuffled and contorted, so my dance expression may be coming over somewhat 'mumbled' (my apologies folks), but my imagination currently has at least half a dozen different posters on this thread variously contorting their limbs, sporadically cavorting and gesticulating moodily.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

I think I'll stick to "The Minimalist Shuffle" - even that's not a pretty sight, but the curtains are closed.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:11 AM

Speaking of "Minimalist Shuffle", Smokey...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

230 of 230: CHRISTMAS SUNG SIMPLY

As gospellers have said,
Beneath signalling skies,
On land dusty to tread,
A trough in a stable
Was the strawy first-bed
Of a divine baby -
The forgiving Godhead.

A season for new hope -
There then and here now;
The yuletide of goodwill -
There then and here now.

In respect of this chance,
Beneath bright or dark skies,
Faith's the star that we glance
Attending Christ's churches
And trying to enhance,
With singing and ritual,
Our God-loving stance.

A...

From walkaboutsverse.741.com or hear it at myspace.com/walkaboutsverse

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:11 AM

Speaking of "Minimalist Shuffle", Smokey...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

230 of 230: CHRISTMAS SUNG SIMPLY

As gospellers have said,
Beneath signalling skies,
On land dusty to tread,
A trough in a stable
Was the strawy first-bed
Of a divine baby -
The forgiving Godhead.

A season for new hope -
There then and here now;
The yuletide of goodwill -
There then and here now.

In respect of this chance,
Beneath bright or dark skies,
Faith's the star that we glance
Attending Christ's churches
And trying to enhance,
With singing and ritual,
Our God-loving stance.

A...

From walkaboutsverse.741.com or hear it at myspace.com/walkaboutsverse

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:13 AM

Dear God please send him away, I will be good in from now on.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 03:27 PM

WaV, I've a distinct feeling you're trying to wind me up.. Nevertheless, I truly hope you and everyone else on here has a splendid Christmas, regardless of all politics and religion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:59 PM

Smokey - and may I second your words - although I swear to God I didn't deliberately second mine!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:24 AM

300

How you reconcile your love of a multicultural world with believing in the most globally oppressive religion ever to raise its ugly head?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

I have at least tried to clarify things, Troll - e.g., "Snow had fallen, snow on snow" (Rossetti, In the Bleak Mid Winter)..."On land dusty to tread" (me, above)...if you check the temperature in Bethlehem over Christmas it will be about 10 to 15 degrees celsius.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

I had a minor disagreement with a Christian chappy onlist earlier. But he apologised and called himself a "bumhole". I thought it was jolly good of him to say he was in the wrong. And for anyone else here interested, heres a nice educational page for other possible auto-anally obsessed minds.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:21 PM

Whatever the temperature at that link, SR, it's extremely unlikely that it was snowing in Bethlehem when Christ was born - Rossetti was being ethnocentric.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:32 PM

Snow in Bethlehem

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

You might need an extremely Christian ethnocentric My Little Pony to help you determine the temperature of that link.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

In respect of this chance
"In respect of"?
Are you serious?
That's a phrase I associate with shiny-arsed chairborne pen-pushers tapping out reports on their laptops. It's crap. It's laughable. You really have got a tin ear, WAV.
I remain, sir, your arrogant and disobedient servant.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:58 AM

I would have thought "With respect for. . . ." At least that's grammatically correct, and within the context, it scans well.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

Thanks Don - I'll consider that.
Weather in Bethlehem

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:42 PM

Thanks for that, WAV.

From HERE:

As small as Israel is, the climate varies greatly from north to south. Our favorite times to go are March-April (wildflower season) and September-October. The Negev desert forms the southern two-thirds of the country, and summer in the Negev can be too hot to enjoy (temperatures above 100 F/37 C). It's possible to see desert sights in the summer if you go sightseeing early in the day. It can get quite wet and cold during the winter (you might even see a white Christmas in Jerusalem or Bethlehem).

Looks like Christina might have been bang on the nail...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM

Oh my David......I am sooooo excited! Olddude is going to be sending you a fruitcake. Isn't that wonderful?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:21 PM

Spaw, I'm shocked!! You're advocating cannibalism!???

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:34 PM

Thanks Don - I'll consider that.
Weather in Bethlehem
Hallelujah!
Let a thousand loud hosannahs be sung!
WAV has posted a link that's NOT to one of his own sites!
Maybe this Christmas malarkey is getting to him...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:45 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 219 of 230: FURTHER ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Let each Christian nation have its own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

...so the Roman Catholic, the Anglican movement, etc. are dissolved and replaced by a Church of Italy, a Church of Germany, a Church of England, a Church of Wales, etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:24 AM

WAV - do you really intend to spend the rest of your life regurgitating this ill-conceived drivel? What a fucking waste.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

"Conceived", Troll, of 4 tech. certificates, a B.A. Deg., about 40 countries, etc. And why are Blair, Brown, and Darling never seen in kilts?...because they've pulled them over English eyes.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:07 PM

GEEZ, David, there you go again (ad bloody infinitum!) about your technical certificates (knows how to drive a fork lift, etc.) and your Bachelor of Asininity degree and the time you spent absorbing Mexican culture during your stay in Tijuana. This hardly qualifies you to rearrange the entire civilization.

". . . a Church of Italy, a Church of Germany, a Church of England, a Church of Wales, etc. . . ."

Having given that concept some serious consideration, about all I can say about it is CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:18 PM

"Conceived", Troll, of 4 tech. certificates, a B.A. Deg., about 40 countries, etc.

Like I say, a waste of fucking time. Get a life WAV, whilst you're technically still alive. And for Christ's sake do a bit of research before you start pronouncing on subjects you know fuck all about.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:56 PM

The sad thing about your attempts to be seen as English WAV is that the true Englishman would never boast about his achievements. It shows such bad manners.

It's also true that your achievements are not really worth boasting about.

Most immigrants are much better behaved and more polite than you.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:00 PM

4 tech. certificates, a B.A. Deg., about 40 countries, etc
Gosh, to think that one man could have done so much and yet have learned so very little.
It really is a little fable for our times, isn't it?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:13 PM

Half the world seems to have got 'scarecrow' degrees these days, but what exactly are your four technical qualifications WaV?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:53 AM

It baffles me that WAV attaches no significance whatsoever to the fact that he is the most loathed Mudcat member of all time [ and that includes martin gibson.] He really doesn't get it, he is surely a genuine moron.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:17 AM

"It baffles me that WAV attaches no significance whatsoever to the fact that he is the most loathed Mudcat member of all time [ and that includes martin gibson.] He really doesn't get it, he is surely a genuine moron."

What a horrible thing to write about anyone. Has it made you feel big and tough and pleased with yourself?

If you want these threads to stop, then all you have to do, ALL of you, is simply not respond to them, rather than fill them with nasty, vicious comments like that, which do nothing other than show the people who are making them in a very bad light. It seems to me they serve almost as some sort of 'therapy' to those who love to pick on others.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 05:37 AM

Stu - "boasting" or DEFENDING when the likes of Troll/IB/Sedayne/Sean make out that I know "fuck all"; and, if they mean sweet FA, why do we still have degrees and technical certificates? Also, Lizzie (and Joe, etc.) are correct - on forums we are meant to focus on what's actually said/the argument...Blair and Brown have allowed about 2 million (mostly economic) immigrants - has that been good for our already overcrowded county and it's ever increasing social problems?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 06:21 AM

Lizzie, why are you the only one to speak up for WAV ? is it because you are so much alike ?

I keep promising myself I won't respond to yours and his inane drivel but aaaaggghh both of your lack of understanding of anything to do with traditional music/instruments/song/ENGLAND infuriates me.

No more.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:18 AM

WAV Ignorance is no defence.

Your certificates do not qualify you to pontificate about folk music, instruments, English history and most other subjects that you pronounce on.

Your Australian citizenship does not qualify you to speak on my behalf.

Your xenophobic postings do not qualify you to speak on behalf of the Christian religion.

Mudcat members include many of real scholarship. Some of these members have proffered the hand of friendship, and the guidance of the sage. Sadly you have repeatedly rejected both.

Eric - I don't loathe WAV. I don't like his posts, and I do wish he'd try to improve his education and understanding.

If I thought your posts would drop off the bottom for ever, I would follow Lizzie's suggestion and not respond.

However...

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:28 AM

"Lizzie, why are you the only one to speak up for WAV ? is it because you are so much alike ?"

I speak up against verbal bullying eric. Am I like WAV? Well, obviously you choose to think so.

In reality of course, I couldn't be more different. I disagree with his outlook on immigration, as I've said *all way through* this thread, but which you've chosen to completely ignore, for your own reasons.

There is one thing I do agree with him over, which is that open discussion about immigration (in any country imo) should be allowed to take place without total hysteria breaking out, because you need to ensure that the people who are coming to live in another country can support themselves, or if there is a strong reason they cannot, then you need to ensure that the country concerned is able to support them, both financially and from an infrastructure point of view.

"I keep promising myself I won't respond to yours and his inane drivel but aaaaggghh both of your lack of understanding of anything to do with traditional music/instruments/song/ENGLAND infuriates me."

Lack of understanding?

You mean, that I don't and won't agree with your views, I assume.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:14 AM

Stu - in case you haven't heard the news, many C. of E. bishops have just published strong criticisms of New Labour over the state of our society, deterioration of our values, etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:10 AM

There were 5, as I recall, David. They were on the BBC news today. One of them was saying that rather than cut VAT, the Government should have bought up old housing stock, done it up and then rented it out at low, affordable rents, to those who need it, as he thought that would have kick started the housing market again. (I doubt it)

I've a friend who rents a small terraced house in Sidmouth, at the cost of near on £700 a month. Er...not that many people down here earn £700 a month these days. Our wages are either dead on, or barely above the minimum wage, down here in the West Country So that rent comes out of Housing Benefit, along with the rents of hundreds of thousands of others, which is costing the country a small fortune..or more than likely a HUGE fortune

Things have been going down the Swanny for the last two decades or so in my eyes...it's just all beginning to hit the fan now.

Good to see the Bishops finally getting off their backsides though, and taking to shouting from the rooftops about a few things. They should have been doing it years back, been far too weak for far too long.

Although, correct me if I'm wrong, but..hasn't the Church of England got masses of property themselves? And didn't they invest some of their money in Viagra, shortly before it burst onto the medical scene?
(I'm sure there are a few jokes there, but I'm on my best behaviour, so....) ;0)

A Rise in the Church of England



"The Church of England has a worldly interest in financial markets. Its investments in shares, property and other interests earned 144.6 million pounds (US$268 million) in 2007, the Church Commissioners reported.

The Church Commissioners administer some 5.6 billion pounds (US$10.4 billion) in assets."

Taken from here

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM

and do they also agree with your xenophobic pronouncements?

All five of them?

They may be better qualified than you are to speak for Christianity.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM

Yes. We probably are all guilty of rising to WAV (and Lizzie)'s stupid posts.
But look what happens when WAV doesn't post? The thread starts to drift down the list as we all get back to our real lives. Just when it's about to drop off the bottom....Guess who revives it?
Yep...
No more people. Let Liz and Wav talk to themselves. They seem to deserve each other.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:45 AM

Geez, Ralph...I thought you'd given up with the nastiness.

What a great shame.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 12:29 PM

I haven't, and neither has Spartacus.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:00 PM

If you want these threads to stop, then all you have to do, ALL of you, is simply not respond to them

So practise what you preach Lizzie. Set a good example if that is what you think others should do. That way lies credibility and respect.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 04:22 PM

many C. of E. bishops have just published strong criticisms of New Labour over the state of our society, deterioration of our values, etc.

Indeed so. A bishop of my acquaintance was famously dismissed New Labour as a '...bunch of mushy mouthed mother-fuckers...', not that they're any better of course. 1 in 5? Personally I'd sack the lot of the sorry bastards, dissolve the Church of England and return all theological, cultural, pastoral and historical Christian authority to the Vatican where it rightfully belongs. I hereby call for Vatican 3 - The Reckoning.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 05:52 PM

David, you're advocating an official church for each country?

What would you do with a country such as the United States that doesn't have an official state church? In fact, the Constitution forbids it in the name of Freedom of Religion:   protecting the right of each citizen to practice his or her religious beliefs—or none at all—according to the dictates of their own conscience?

Don Firth

P. S. Lizzie, not everyone here is a bully. I'm not sure you have distinguished between an honest question or refutation of an assertion and what you call "bullying."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 08:55 PM

Lizzie, you made that same post back on December 11. Since then, I have posted twice about the logic behind Agnosticism, once regarding the "weakly" verse, and once to let Wav know he was getting a fruitcake. You have posted almost 30 times..............This thread will be what it will be.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 03:58 AM

As a holder of a Permit To Drive A Forklift Truck as well as a qualification in Asinine Talking (linguistics) I come to bring authority to this thread.
Very difficult to determine what it's about, but the thread on English culture seems to have concluded (with the magnificent "assistance" of madlizziecornish though none from WAV) that it involves a non-English comedian and a non-English footballer.
So, there you go, WAV. Go and stand in line behind Sid James and George Best and become a Peggy Mitchell shagger.
Only then will you be what you want to be.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:04 AM

From Don: "P. S. Lizzie, not everyone here is a bully...."

You are quite right, Don. I apologise if I insulted anyone who came on here purely to have a discussion with David and to try to get him to see another way. I wasn't actually including those people when I was raging, but I didn't make the distinction, which was wrong of me.

It's the deeply personal attacks that get to me so.

Yes, Spaw, you too are correct, although I got caught up in replying to a torrent of abusive posts about me. I should have let them just stand and given no reply, but hey, that is very hard to do when you are the one under attack. It's one of the reasons these threads get to me, because it does bring out the same group of people who've done similar things to me, and I can assure you, it doesn't feel good. I don't like others having to endure it, but I can see that maybe David isn't that upset by it all, else he'd not keep starting threads which are of exactly the same nature.

I've no problems with his poems, which he obviously loves writing. I've no problem with his love of England.

Where we differ is that I feel that England belongs to everyone who loves her, no matter where they come from, what colour they are, or religion.

I'll leave this thread to those who love it now, for whatever reasons they may be...but I'd like to leave it with some beautiful words about England, from Ralph McTell:

Ralph McTell - 'England' - Youtube


ENGLAND

Ralph McTell

What is it about you, makes me feel this way?
When I'm leaving you, when I'm coming home
I'm lost for words to say.
And I know your faults and failures,
And the troubles that you've been through.
But it's more about what happens now
And what were coming to.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through her city streets,
And the sun that shines on England
Well it lifts the heart in me.

What is it about you, that took men into war?
Rows and rows of crosses: Who remembers why what for?
The corners of these foreign fields,
The dust in them concealed.
Out of sight but not out of mind,
Don't you know that England feels?

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets.
The rain that falls on England
Well it washes care from me.

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

Don't make this out a battle hymn or a song of victory.
It's just a way to try to say what England means to me.
And our accents and our colours change
From the city to the farmland
From the moorland to the mountain,
From the river to the sea.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets
The rain that falls on England
Well it washes care from me.

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

From the rolling road to the winding lane,
From the field to factory,
From summer's haze to winter's glaze,
And all the colours in between.
It's a stillness in the evening.
It's the heartbeat that I'm feeling.
Fron Cornwall to Northumberland,
From the Pennines to the sea.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets.
The rain that falls on England
Well it washes care from me

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:38 AM

I've no problems with his poems, which he obviously loves writing. I've no problem with his love of England.

It might be worth pointing out (again) that WAV retired from versification some time ago. Now content to rest on his laurels, the current phase of his Life's Work (from now on presumably) is the promotion of this hoary canon in the conviction that it contains sacred truths and answers to all humanity's ills. So no real love of writing there at all really, which I'd say is as specious as his love of England, of which he has demonstrated no clear understanding nor appreciation, rather a highly conditional & racist version of how he thinks it should be.

The only bully on this thread is WAV himself, promoting his brutal law of ill-conceived absolutes backed up by the divinely appointed authority of his own arrogance and superiority whereby he seeks to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:48 AM

Stu and Troll - I repeatedly get accused of repetition but, just after I mention about 40 countries I ENJOYED visiting, you again call me "xenophobic" and "racist".
Lizzie - the bishops also mentioned loss of our family values, etc.
Troll/IB/Sedayne/Sean..?..I'm not sure what changes more frequently: your nickname, our weather, or the opinions in your posts (read, e.g., what you've said on Christianity since my last weekly walkabout)...perhaps Diane likes it, though?
Don - push for a change in your constitution...a Church of the U.S.A. would be a good move...also look at the gun laws and weather a good leader should have to go simply because he/she has served two terms.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:53 AM

Everywhere you go, always take the weather with you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:41 AM

Yup, it would make a real difference to America's spiritual wellbeing if they legislated on the weather.
More brilliant apercus from the most enlightened forklift truck operative this side of Nirvana. Honestly, I do wonder how I was able to live my life before WAV walked in and spread his little droplets of brilliance all around.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:16 AM

WAV I don't know you. I am unable to say whether you as a person are xenophobic. In your head I'm sure you're a reasonable, pleasant fellow who loves his fellow man; in your head I'm sure that your beliefs are the salvation of the world.

What I can judge is what you post on this forum and elsewhere. Many of your posts are in my view bigoted, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynist, mistaken, ill-conceived, lacking understanding, lacking research, lacking talent.

If you have a message, or even an opinion, does it not concern you that so many intelligent people misunderstand you? Perhaps that says more about your communication skills than your various certificates.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:28 AM

Anyone know who's on Celebrity Big Brother this time round (it starts on Friday)?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:58 AM

Lol! Indeed, here's to far more important things...
And in case anyones interested in edificating themselfs on English Culture, there's not one but *two* examples on telly this very afternoon!

The thoroughly pants sequal (that I'll probly grudgingly watch anyway) to the wonderful ("Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!") 'Conan the Barbarian' on tonight too. Why do they always put the pants sequal on!? Huff!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:51 AM

I repeatedly get accused of repetition but, just after I mention about 40 countries I ENJOYED visiting, you again call me "xenophobic" and "racist".

It's not your brief period of shoe-string tourism that brands you as a racist, WAV - rather your insane belief that England was a more Engish place 50 years ago and your scapegoating of immigrants for all society's ills.

the bishops also mentioned loss of our family values, etc.

Which have little to do with your bachelor lifestyle, one would have thought.

I'm not sure what changes more frequently: your nickname, our weather, or the opinions in your posts (read, e.g., what you've said on Christianity since my last weekly walkabout)

Change is a good thing, WAV - to wake each new dawn to a whole set of problems & possibilities. I realise of course this must be difficult to someone as mired in their own absolutist bullshit as you are, but I was born a pluralist, with a yen for option (rather than opinion, which is anathema to us Gnostics), and thus are my passions inspired and motivated. However, my feelings on religion have been more or less consistent since the age of 7 when I realised that one could love religion without being in any way religious - especially the cultural manifestations of pre-Reformation Roman Catholicism which now languish in the hands of the Church of England.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:10 AM

"In your head I'm sure you're a reasonable, pleasant fellow who loves his fellow man; in your head I'm sure that your beliefs are the salvation of the world."

A tickle under the chinny-winny for WAV . . .

"Many of your posts are in my view bigoted, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynist, mistaken, ill-conceived, lacking understanding, lacking research, lacking talent."

. . . then whack! A kick in the balls. That's got to hurt.

I tell you what WAV, I wouldn't bend over if I were you.

Next episode: Fish in a Barrel! Pow!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:21 AM

then whack! A kick in the balls. That's got to hurt.

It would if WAV had balls; either that or he's particularly impervious. One is reminded of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR-I7d41JGM

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:37 AM

: : ducks : :

Whoosh!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM

There should be a lot more respect for the likes of Alec Salmond and a lot less for the likes of Gordon Brown.

Troll/IB/Sedayne/etc. - why didn't you just say: "I get confused, and that's why I've struggled with formal study"?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:30 PM

I have to say that (Quote)
"Wav coming in and sprinkling his droplets all around" conjures up an alarming and slightly unpleasant image

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: mandotim
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:35 PM

To Lizzie Cornish; before you start defending WAV again, take a look at the last line of his post at 1.02pm. This is a snide and oft repeated jibe at Troll/IB, when WAV knows full well that Troll/IB was forced to drop out of high level academic study because of a serious and debilitating illness. Not quite the behaviour of an innocent victim, as you seem to portray him, is it?
As it happens, I'm an academic, and I find Troll/IB's posts unfailingly well-researched, erudite and academically sound, unlike the superficial, unresearched, self-aggrandising and badly written posts purveyed by WAV.
To WAV; you would do well to remember Denis Healey's much quoted line; 'I don't mind being called a bastard, but I hope I'm never called a shit'. Your last post was thoroughly reprehensible, and I hope you have the grace to apologise.
Tim
PS Troll/IB; I know you are fully able to defend yourself, but I couldn't let this one pass.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:05 PM

As it happens, I'm an academic, and I find Troll/IB's posts unfailingly well-researched, erudite and academically sound, unlike the superficial, unresearched, self-aggrandising and badly written posts purveyed by WAV.

I agree with every word of that. (And, if anyone's sad enough to be impressed by these things, I've got a BA, an MA and a PhD - and I could probably fix your computer*.)

It's the sublime, ineffable, undentable** arrogance of WAV's posts that keeps dropping my jaw. Take this:

Don - push for a change in your constitution...a Church of the U.S.A. would be a good move...

This, of course, in response to Don pointing out that WAV's dream of a national church would be unconstitutional. Never mind 200 years of deeply entrenched political reality; never mind the cultural traditions of the USA, for that matter. Don should agitate for an end to the separation of church and state, because... er... because WAV thinks it would be a good move.

WAV in a nutshell:

You know that thing? Big thing, you know, takes up a lot of space. Has all the other things in it.
- Space? The universe? Reality?
That's the one. Reality.
- What about it?
Well... I don't like it. Get me another one.


*If I had to - I'm not offering.

**IB's video looks more and more apposite.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

"Don - push for a change in your constitution...a Church of the U.S.A. would be a good move...also look at the gun laws and weather a good leader should have to go simply because he/she has served two terms."

David, I do believe that it would be a good idea to re-evaluate the actual meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. And a re-examination of the two-term rule might also be in order. As I recall, this law was pushed for by disgruntled conservatives who were upset over the fact that Franklin Delano Roosevelt kept getting reelected (having instituted many of the laws and regulations that helped the country get out of the Depression of the 1930s—and which the Bush administration refused or neglected to enforce, which is why the economy is currently in a state of chaos—and because the voters wanted to return him to office), and was serving his fourth term when he died of a cerebral hemorrhage.

But a "Church or the U.S.A.?" An official state church?

Considering the number of religious denominations in this country that would like very much to be the State Church, which would you recommend? Catholic? Lutheran? Episcopalian? Methodist? Presbyterian? Baptist (and if so, which denomination, the more liberal ones or those favored by the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference)? Assembly of God (Sarah Palin's Pentecostal denomination)? Mormon? The Church of the Golden Globes?

How about Judaism. Okay, which? Orthodox? Reformed? Or would you prefer Jews for Jesus?

Muslim, perhaps. Sunni? Shi-ite?

Druidism. . . .

Perhaps you have forgotten (from your Humanities course, which I presume included History) that many of the first immigrants to the American colonies fled here to escape the kind of religious persecution that State Religions tend to promulgate. And that this was the reason for the First Amendment: to safeguard the right to Freedom of Religion (which some people tend to forget also means freedom from religion).

And that to make it stick, we had to beat the crap out of the English and send them packing back home.

Fortunately, our two countries have let bygones remain bygones, and all is tranquil now.

But the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution, many countries agree, is a good model for enacting laws for the protection of Human Rights.

History has more than amply demonstrated that state churches give the church the power of secular law. In short, church dogma becomes law. And that leads to religious persecution and such things as the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials, which occurred in 1692, some ninety-nine years before the adoption of the Bill of Rights (including the First Amendment) in 1791. For modern examples of state religions, look at some countries in the Middle East:   oppression of women, including making them dress from head to foot in black bags, public beheadings, stonings, chopping off hands as a punishment for petty theft. . . .

State religions, David? Definitely not a good idea!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM

. . . Death to infidels! Burning heretics at the stake. . . .

No. Not a good idea!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:29 PM

Lessee here.....WavyFWBR done spent a whoppin' 15 minutes at a Tijuana taco stand and counted that as a great visit to Mexico. Now with this latest nonsense about religion, he proves he must have spent even less time in the United States! But then I got to reckoning he might have a point if it was the RIGHT church.

A few years ago I told of the night that Paw and Cletus found their Buddy Buford had survived a hunting accident and I let them have a party in my backyard. Things got kinda' religious at one point and the members of a local sect showed up. Now maybe they are just the right thing for America's Church! See what you think...................


That reunion led to a joyous evening of the three of them and the Reg boys getting drunk on "Iron City" and 'Shine and roasting a hog out in my backyard alongside the garage. Of course, after a while, Paw started lighting up farts as is his wont, and that's what I now have come to believe is one of those things best left unexplained.

The neighbors began to complain about 11 o'clock or so after one of Paw's flamers had ignited the hedge on his property. That would have passed as the boys got it put out pretty quick, being full of Iron City and all, but when a major rip set fire to his wife's bird feeder....well, that was it. I tried to calm the guy down and assured him nothing like that would happen again. He went back into his house dragging the charred remains of the feeder and a roasted squirrel that had been looting it when Paw let fly with that fiery thundersprecht.

Anyway, I got them situated again and since my house has aluminum siding, my only request was that they point Paw towards the wall. I figured a good hosing would clean off the worst of it in the morning. I went inside and the revelry continued at a somewhat decreased decibel level with only the occasional flash lighting the window of my den. Around 2 AM the boys came in for a final pee call and of course they couldn't just go. I heard either Reg or Reg in my pantry and before I could get up there, the whole crew was playing sink the Cheerios in my downstairs bathroom. Karen came downstairs at this point and threw a fit since our kids watch everything the boys do and we were spending a fortune in Cheerios. After a severe ass-reaming from Karen, I herded them back outside and suggested they get some sleep around the smouldering pig carcass. I went back in and after cleaning and disinfecting the bathroom and taking a shower, I again settled down in front of the TV to watch a half-hour Infomercial on how I could make thousands a week by selling quinnine pills through Direct Mail Order and running tiny little ads.

They were just getting to the good part with the testimonials and all when there was this giant blast from the backyard and the night sky lit up like a Buddhist monk. There was a moment of silence and then I heard Cletus yell, "HOLY SHEEE-IT!!!" Well, there wasn't anyway I could avoid it, so I went out through the garage into the backyard and there they stood, the whole damn bunch of them, except for Buford who was throwing up Iron City and pork fat down his bib overalls over by the smoking hedge. They were staring at an image that Paw's last fart had scorched onto the siding with their mouths hanging open. I stepped back and looked and my first thought was, "Well this ain't gonna' clean off too good and Karen will be really pissed." But when I started to say something Cletus stopped me and I noticed that the look on all of their faces was almost reverent. Paw was standing with his mouth agape and the others seemed awestruck as well, so I looked again.

Cletus turned to me and said, "Doncha seez it Catspaw? Its rite thar!!! Paw done farted Jerry Falwell out his ass!!!" Well, I kinda' had to admit, it DID resemble him in the flickering light of the burning porker on the spit, but I was too much in fear of what the morning would bring from Karen to say anymore than tell them to get some sleep. Problem was, they didn't. I went back inside, the group outside quieted down, and I nodded off before I could get the 800 number for the "501 All-Time Polka Greats" by Myron Kopetz and the Nose Flute Kings.

What I didn't know was that the group had gone off and gotten Pastor Sharphorn, his wife, the Ladies Auxillary, and the Deacons, from the "Church of Evangelical Brethren and Tongue Talking Mohunkers" and they arrived for a look-see about sun-up. When I woke up to the commotion outside it was about 6 AM I guess. The sight that confronted me was reasonably bizarre. At least 150 people were assembled in the backyard and I could see more coming down the alley. A small altar had been erected out of the remains of my stockade fence which was now on the ground, the crowd overflowing into my neighbor's backyard and trampling his stupid-ass garden gnomes into powder....it was the only high spot of the day. Those kneeling at the altar would place small plastic Madonnas and Jesus statuary at the foot of the garage wall and say a little prayer and move on to the donation box that Cletus was guarding. It was then that I noticed that everyone donating more than $25.00 was getting a "Holy Relic" to commemorate their visit to this newest religious icon which had previously only sheltered my vehicles and assorted cans of dried out wax and rubbing compound.

There, perched upon a throne-like affair that I noticed had been assembled from our porch furniture, was Paw. As each person gave his donation, Buford would cut a small piece from Paw's overalls and hand it to them. For $50. they got a piece from the seat, and for $500. a snippet from the flap of his longjohns. It was a kind of poor man's "Shroud of Turin" I guess. Business must have been good since Paw was missing one entire leg of his bibs and he was about bareassed already. I was dumbfounded and I was just considering how to set this up as an infomercial and start booking tours when the County Sheriff showed up and ran everybody off. Then he proceeded to fine me for 19 different offenses and gave me a summons to appear in court for destruction of my neighbors property.

I was able to head off Cletus and the money, which covered almost all of the fines and my neighbor's friggin' gnomes, but it cost another 50 bucks to get rid of the Falwell image. Now if I could just get shed of the real one for the same price.......................Anyway, I have never been able to figure out how that happened and I suppose it is one of those things best left unexplained. I've always thought that Falwell was talking out his ass, but I never figured you could blow him out your ass as well, but Paw's a really religious ol' coot so I guess you just never know. Really, I think Cletus had it right with his first two words, "Holy Shit!!"



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:21 AM

Tim: stop deluding people and have a look at what Troll/IB/Sedayne, etc. had posted about me...I let a lot of ATTACKS go before I retaliate that strongly. I used to receive his cheap-shots whenever I dared to question immigration - nowadays it's whenever I post.
And, while we are at it, those like Stu who ignore the argument completely and repeatedly resort to name-calling should simply be DELETED.
An NHS doctor turning terrorist is an extreme example, but trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems, and the record of (mostly economic) immigration allowed by New Labour the last decade may, sadly, result in a record amount of trouble over the next decade. The UN must look at economic/capitalist/mass immigration/emigration - sensibly. And this is from someone who obviously DOES love the world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:09 AM

...an apology: I meant stop TRYING to delude people, just above.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM

Oh Dear WAV

It's hard to know where to start:

I don't like the tone of most of your posts. They convey most of the attributes that I would wish did not exist in the world.
But I think you think you are a nice guy.
Your posts are badly written and argued: they have been refuted repeatedly by wiser people than I.
But I think you think you have achieved some wisdom.
Your poetry is not very good.
But I think you are proud of your life's work.
Your music is execrable and your musical knowledge limited by your blinkered views and lack of research.
But I think you think you are knowledgeable.

I haven't criticized you as a person (or at any rate not much).
But I have criticized your banal and unfounded postings.

Your claim that I ignore the argument is of course unfounded as are most of your wild defences. Arguments and discussions in educated circles follow a set of conventions, where a concept is presented, with some evidence: this is then discussed rationally and systematically, by pros and cons with further evidence as appropriate.

But I think that you think you argue rationally.

This is probably why I and others try to improve your education

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:19 AM

Just out of interest who do you see as those 'like Stu' who should also be just deleted?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:56 AM

WAV (who else): trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

And here we are again. Let's face it, that's all this thread is for - giving Franks a platform to repeat his handful of racist talking-points, again and again, in the hope that someone will be foolish enough to sympathise.

Sad, deluded, dishonest racist. He's not worth our time.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:48 AM

WAV:
trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

I'm currently having a great Christmas and New Year in the company of:

(a) me - of English, Scottish, Irish and Dutch origins
(b) my wife - half English, half Polish
(c) my son - half of me and my wife
(d) my son's partner - half Irish and some Polish
(e) my best and oldest friend - totally Jewish

David - think again before you make such ignorant and insulting pronouncements.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM

Well penned Stu.....Spot on.

And yes Pip, that IS the line that once again proves it all.

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

That is a basic foundation block of every bigoted, separatist belief system. It is one WavFWBR refers to again and again. Yes he is a sad, deluded, dishonest racist. Pumping out his delusional ramblings is its own form of bullying.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:21 AM

stop deluding people and have a look at what Troll/IB/Sedayne, etc. had posted about me...I let a lot of ATTACKS go before I retaliate that strongly

As I have pointed out on many occasions in the past, I do not attack you personally, WAV - rather I attack your published ideology which you promote as your Life's Work. If you publish your ideas and opinions, you are inviting criticism - and if you don't like what the critics have to say, you must find a way to defend your work without resorting to personal insults. In this sense your retaliation wasn't strong in the slightest, rather a cowardly lashing out because you obviously haven't got the nous to defend your work in any other way. Nasty stuff, WAV - well below the belt, and most definitely not conduct befitting an Englishman, nor a Gentleman, of which, it would seem, you are neither.

I used to receive his cheap-shots whenever I dared to question immigration -

It's the grounds on which you question immigration that are the problem, WAV - your latest tirade of reactionary crap posted today at 05:21 AM is a perfect example of this, replete with prophecies of multi-cultural Armageddon, and neatly rounded off with your specious leitmotif concerning your love of a multi-cultural world, the racist implication of which would be obvious enough without the forgoing.

nowadays it's whenever I post.

You only ever post to promote your life's work, WAV - this inane tirade of ill-conceived, ill-informed self-glorifying bullshit motivated entirely by a deep seated arrogance on the part of the writer. And if said writer was not also racist, said writer would not have written what he has; likewise, if said writer was better informed (and dare I say educated) he would not persist in his highly erroneous conclusions on subjects he evidently knows fuck all about. But there he is, boldly promoting his Alternative to Reality as though God has chosen him as the New Messiah come in fulfilment of Isaiah 50:6. In which case, WAV, I urge you - either bear the inevitable blows with greater dignity or else assimilate yourself into the wondrous diversity of cultural actuality of the country that gave you birth.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:18 AM

Just takes the Biscuit/Cookie (depending on cultural background

Sorry to shout, but to quote WAV again.
TRYING TO HAVE A MULTIPLE NUMBER OF CULTURES LIVING UNDER ONE STATE LAW, WILL ALWAYS CAUSE PROBLEMS.

QED, WAV....QED.(It's Latin by the way, go and look it up.)
Now off with you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:47 AM

So here's me (50% southern Greek, 42% Macedonian Greek, 8% Vlach gypsy), with Vanessa (mainly English but with suspicions of Welsh heritage also), managing quite-nicely-than-you next to our Bangladeshi neighbours on one side, Polish one more door down, English-Scottish on the other side. Quite the opposite of what you claim, WAV, we get along very well despite our religious, dietary, or other differences. So much so, that a new song was written precisely to celebrate the fact, called "Street life". The chorus says it all:

"A different story every day of the week
As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
And I don't care much where they come from, who they pray to, what they eat,
But I am lucky living down our street".

Frances Street in Chesham is the practical, real-life, proof to the contrary of your statement, Dave. I have often agreed with other postulations of yours, but not with this one. Not this one, by a long chalk.

Your theory has no legs.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

Well said George. (It won't make a ha'pporth of difference, but Hey!)

I would love to wish you, yours, your neighbours and friends a Happy New Year, in your own original(!) languages....Sadly I've only got a Swedish dictionary! So.... Got Nytt Ar!
Hope you all have a multiculural time!
Ralph

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:26 AM

Hey George..
Do the Southern Greeks, Macedonian Greeks, and Vlach Gypsies get on well together living in the same body? If not, it must be hell in there!!!!
My sympathies!
Ralphie

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM

The Southern Greeks think they're the dog's cojones because they were "liberated" first from the Ottoman Empire (80 years ahead of Northern Greece). They think that somehow this imparts a certain nobility.

Most Macedonian Greeks are proud to be associated with Alexander the Great and his achievements; they think of themselves as the ones that come at the end to fix things, when the rest of Greece has mucked things up. Also as more liberal than the rest. But most Macedonian Greeks are suspicious of non-Greek Macedonians (from ex-Yugoslavia or Bulgaria) trying to re-create the ancient Macedonia - we think this is just a trick to "Serbianise" us.

And the Vlach Gypsies (the horse-trading gypsy clans) claim to be of the original Romany stock in Europe. They know thay will be the object of persecution given half an excuse, so they don't trust anyone.

And yet we all get on splendidly. Especially when confronted with those upstart Cretans! But we will all visit the ruins at Knossos and claim King Minos to have been one of the most important Greek kings. Cretan, sure, but Greek nevertheless.

It's all a joke, in other words.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:45 PM

". . . a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems."

"Always?"

Only in your mind, David. In the real world, more often than not, different ethnic groups, each with its own culture, living within the same state enrich the larger culture.

Like your "pottage," David. The more ingredients it contains, the more tasty and nutritious it is.

Your travels through 40 countries apparently didn't teach you much.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM

Well Don, lemmee ask ya'................How the hell can you learn anything in a few hours in a country? That admission alone has made all of WavFWBR's entire line of bullshit null and void. Even worse he has proven that time spent anywhere does not lead to his better understanding either as he has proven to know fuck all about the very place he lives!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:28 AM

"If this is Tuesday, it must be Belgium. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:17 AM

WAV

"An NHS doctor turning terrorist is an extreme example,[of what? It's extreme behaviour to blow up an Airport. What makes you think that he 'turned terrorist' for some unspecified reason] but trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems [Why? Evidence? Justification?], and the record of (mostly economic) immigration allowed by New Labour the last decade may, sadly, result in a record amount of trouble over the next decade [ or alternatively it may not]. The UN must look at economic/capitalist/mass immigration/emigration – sensibly [and then what?]. And this is from someone who obviously DOES love the world being multicultural [It gives the traveller such quaint experiences looking at their odd customs and primitive behaviour]."

I started trying to explain your lack of reasoned argument above, but life's too short.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

A Christmas Carol,by William MCgonagle

WELCOME, sweet Christmas, blest be the morn
That Christ our Saviour was born!
Earth's Redeemer, to save us from all danger,
And, as the Holy Record tells, born in a manger.

          Chorus --
    Then ring, ring, Christmas bells,
    Till your sweet music o'er the kingdom swells,
    To warn the people to respect the morn
    That Christ their Saviour was born.

The snow was on the ground when Christ was born,
And the Virgin Mary His mother felt very forlorn
As she lay in a horse's stall at a roadside inn,
Till Christ our Saviour was born to free us from sin.

Oh! think of the Virgin Mary as she lay
In a lowly stable on a bed of hay,
And angels watching O'er her till Christ was born,
Therefore all the people should respect Christmas morn.

The way to respect Christmas time
Is not by drinking whisky or wine,
But to sing praises to God on Christmas morn,
The time that Jesus Christ His Son was born;

Whom He sent into the world to save sinners from hell
And by believing in Him in heaven we'll dwell;
Then blest be the morn that Christ was born,
Who can save us from hell, death, and scorn.

Then he warned, and respect the Saviour dear,
And treat with less respect the New Year,
And respect always the blessed morn
That Christ our Saviour was born.

For each new morn to the Christian is dear,
As well as the morn of the New Year,
And he thanks God for the light of each new morn.
Especially the morn that Christ was born.

Therefore, good people, be warned in time,
And on Christmas morn don't get drunk with wine
But praise God above on Christmas morn,
Who sent His Son to save us from hell and scorn.

There the heavenly babe He lay
In a stall among a lot of hay,
While the Angel Host by Bethlehem
Sang a beautiful and heavenly anthem.

Christmas time ought to be held most dear,
Much more so than the New Year,
Because that's the time that Christ was born,
Therefore respect Christmas morn.

And let the rich be kind to the poor,
And think of the hardships they do endure,
Who are neither clothed nor fed,
And Many without a blanket to their bed.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 06:04 PM

walkabout,happy new year.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 09:53 PM

And now for the resolutions....

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

1440 x 900

Happy New Year folkers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:44 PM

May you all thrive and be joyful in the coming year.

And may David achieve enlightenment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:11 AM

Thanks for the McGonagall Captain Birdseye. Lovely! But I think my favourite bit has to be:

"The snow was on the ground when Christ was born,
And the Virgin Mary His mother felt very forlorn"

What a seasonally affecting rhyme, and crammed in amongst so many syllables too! Now there's craft.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 04:27 PM

The WAV thread reads like a parody ya know *LOL*