England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:38 PM

". . . to someone who has passed all the practical and academic exams involved in achieving 4 technical certificates (from Advanced Cert. in Manufacturing Technology/HNC to THAT fork lift licence) and a BA in Humanities with distinctions?"

David, you seem to set great store by your four technical certificates and your Bachelor of Arts in Humanities. I congratulate you on these achievements. But—how does this degree and these technical certificates (one in driving a fork lift) qualify you to speak authoritatively on politics, economics, and ethnomusicology,? I don't see that they make you any more qualified in these areas than someone picked at random off the street.

But hear this:   the acquisition of certificates and degrees is only the beginning of one's education. A technical certificate shows you are qualified on one specialized area, but it does not give you any actual experience in that area. Only time using that skill does that. One does attain a bit of knowledge in studying for certificates and degrees, but the important thing one should learn in the process is learning how to learn. I am constantly amazed and appalled by the number of people who assume that now that they have a degree, their education is complete. Far from it. It's only beginning. Now, the real learning can begin!

I have a number of technical certificates that declare me qualified for specific occupations. I spent a good five years at the University of Washington, in English Literature and Music, and studying with Dr. David C. Fowler, a medieval scholar who was also a ballad scholar. I also took courses in Humanities and the Sciences. After this, I spent an additional two years at the Cornish School of the Arts, a conservatory, studying music performance and learning about the practical aspects of a career in music.

I did not take a degree at either school. I learned what they had to offer and I also learned how to continue learning on my own. I was interested in the knowledge I was acquiring, including how to continue acquiring the knowledge I sought. I was not particularly interested in a piece of parchment with calligraphy on it. About all this would be good for would be to hang on a wall in an office in hopes that it would impress people. But I had no intention of working in an office.

During the time I worked as an technical illustrator for the Boeing Airplane Company, I sat next to a young woman who had also been to the University of Washington. She was a bit haughty toward me and considered herself superior to me in terms of education. Why? She had a Bachelor of Arts degree and I did not. Hence, to her, this meant that she was educated and I was not. This, despite the fact that I had spent nearly twice as much time in higher education institutions than she had, and while there I had chosen my courses carefully (with the wise guidance of counsellors such as Dr. Fowler), whereas she had followed the standard curriculum for Arts History majors.

I was aware that her field of study was Art History, not greatly respected by many other university students because it was an easy course of study and generally the field that many young women fresh out of high school chose to major in when they really had no reason or interest in attending college, other than attempting to put themselves in the way of promising young college men whom they hope will confer upon them the "Mrs." degree they were really seeking.

One noontime, when we sat at our drawing tables eating lunch, I had my nose in a book—a fairly characteristic pose—while munching away at my sandwich and sipping my coffee. She noted that when I wasn't working, I spent much of my time reading. She remarked—bragged, in fact—that she hadn't "cracked a book" since she graduated from the university. She had no interest in reading. On any subject.

No. She may have had a piece of parchment rolled up and tied with a ribbon stuffed away in a drawer someplace, but was she educated? I don't think so.

####

Stu is right. There are plenty of knowledgeable people here on Mudcat, and since you are a newcomer to folk music, they—we—would be more than willing to assist you, answering any questions you have, and making suggestions as to how to proceed. But if you put people off by bragging about how much you already know (like the postulant, the lama, and the cup of tea), waving your certificates and degrees, constantly linking to your own web site in an effort to lend authority to some of your ideas, and keep telling us how it all should be, then about all you can really expect in return is hostility and put-downs.

Whether you like it or not, David, in folk music, you are a beginner. You should concentrate on learning, not trying to tell those with years, decades, of experience and knowledge what they should or should not be singing and how they should or should not be singing it.

####

As far as your ideas about a pure, unadulterated English culture are concerned, considering the fact that you left England for Australia at the age of three and returned to England at the age of thirty, is it not conceivable that the picture of "England as it used to be and should be again" that you have in your mind is actually just that—in your mind—and never did reflect the real England?

You might want to give that possibility some serious consideration.

Don Firth

The doorstep to the Temple of Wisdom is the knowledge of our own ignorance.
                                                                                        —Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

You've used it TOO broadly. I've never seen Anchorman, but I have freinds who can recite it verbatim. Apparently he learns the saying 'when in Rome..' but uses it in the wrong situations. Not too different to what we have here!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM

That's about it IB and Volgadon - obviously, I've used it a tad more broadly (showing knowledge v telling CV/occupation)...And is it Stu the teacher who move to France?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

"I second that. Incidentally, I read somewhere that some large proportion (half or more) of cowboys were Black - hence the 'boy' part of the word. I don't know if this is history or urban legend, though."
Urban legend, beyond any shadow of a doubt. The term perdates the American West by a good few centuries. I made that discovery at the age of 11, reading a collection of Irish myths and legends (can't remeber the title, but it was a reprint of a book from 1900 or so) where the term was used. More supporting evidence is the term cabin boy. Not too many black ones.

."...don't you think that a tad condescending, if not discriminatory, to someone who has passed all the practical and academic exams involved in achieving 4 technical certificates (from Advanced Cert. in Manufacturing Technology/HNC to THAT fork lift licence) and a BA in Humanities with distinctions?

Am I the only one here who apreciates a delicious bit of unintended irony? This serious is the funniest thing I have heard in days. POTS AND KETTLES!!!!!!

My grip with Songcathcer is that I don't think the acting is very good and some of the storylines were gratuitous, like the lesbian schoolteachers (though that probably isn't too far from the way things were) but the music is good and makes visualising the difficulties encountered by collecters a lot easier. The scene where she is trying to haul the recording device through the hills is impressive.

Wav, your fundamental ignorance is astounding. 'Show, don't tell' is one of the most basic concepts in writing. It's the difference between passive and active writing. Requires the reader to excersize their imagination.
Instead of writing that Sebastian Cleverbeak, your protagonist, is very smart, you come up with a situation which shows that.
One of the things that made me want to scream when I read O'Brien's Master and Commander (turgid!), was that whenever an action scene occured, O'Brien would fade out and then have one of the characters comment to the other over a glass of wine. 'Wasn't that a s ticky situation.' 'Oh, yes, a very hard fight.' 'Ensign Snottynose behaved himself most courageously.' etc., etc., WITHOUT ever showing the reader! I'm not saying he needed a Bernard Cornwell level of blood and guts to do so, but it's a lot funner to be PRESENT instead of hearing about it later.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

Good points,Stu.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:35 AM

I've read the "show don't tell" argument in writing manuals too

That isn't strictly what is meant by show don't tell, WAV; have a look to see what WIKI has to say (Here) which is pretty much how the term is generally understood.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:19 AM

It's not an argument WAV. It's not an attack. I'm an educator: I find it hard to do these two things

1. To not help someone who's trying.
2. To not correct errors and misconceptions.

I am not alone here I believe. The other posters to your threads have tried to persuade you to open your eyes; to think before you post; to recognise the prejudice that people see in your threads and to accept the help and corrections that are offered.

People will help you. Not just me.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:12 AM

With respect of Native American musics:

http://www.shlomomusic.com/O%27odham.htm

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM

...I've read the "show don't tell" argument in writing manuals too, Stu; but when someone like you makes out that my mind remains some kind of tabula rasa, I will, in defence, mention all those exams that I HAVE come through.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:37 AM

PS I think you'll find that the posters here would delight in helping you with your education in their various areas of expertise. Seriously and sincerely

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:24 AM

WAV BA and a few certificates show very little set against your constant demonstrations of non-comprehension of so much. You profess opinions in areas where your ignorance is obvious.

I repeat 'I believe you may be capable of learning'. You have interests in areas where there is much to learn. All you have to do to learn is allow the facts to modify your opinions; to question instead of pontificate; to edit instead of publish.

Most of Mudcat is better qualified than you are in terms of exams and certificates, but they recognize that letters after one's name lend no credence to an argument.

Almost all the posters to Mudcat are erudite 'real' folkies poets and musicians.

I believe you may be capable of learning from them, but you try very hard to convince me otherwise

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:56 AM

Pip gave spoons a guernsey.
Stu says - "WAV you're not a folkie any more than you're a poet.

You're a wannabee.

That's not necessarily bad.

However, most wannabees seek advancement by study, discussion, research and a knowledge of their own shortcomings.

Your knowledge of folk music is very limited. Your arguments are irrelevant and racially divisive.

Listen and read the people who know about folk music, the world, anthropology, toilets, sharpening knives and all the other wonderful topics covered on this erudite and friendly forum. Listen to their music, read their comments Try to learn

Your posturing does my country a disservice.

I believe that you may be capable of learning.

It starts with humility."...don't you think that a tad condescending, if not discriminatory, to someone who has passed all the practical and academic exams involved in achieving 4 technical certificates (from Advanced Cert. in Manufacturing Technology/HNC to THAT fork lift licence) and a BA in Humanities with distinctions?

However, I too thought that was an interesting read, Don, and I'll lookout for "Songcatcher", which I hadn't heard of. And, yes, I forgot native American flutes (even though they are represented among my myspace Top Friends).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:48 AM

As in Blazing Saddles?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM

I second that. Incidentally, I read somewhere that some large proportion (half or more) of cowboys were Black - hence the 'boy' part of the word. I don't know if this is history or urban legend, though.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:17 AM

Don - thank you for painting a picture of the cowboy that in a few words has told me more of the cowboy than I had ever considered.

This illustrates beautifully my point. This is a knowledgeable and thoughtful site.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

"And to Don, who prefers to analyse a tad more calmly - do you see any differences between folk in America and England? Would you call Amerindian chants and drums the true traditional music of America?"

####

Yes, I do see some differences—some distinct differences—between folk music in America and England. But as far as performance is concerned, other than tracing the provenance of a given song as a matter of historical interest, I don't see that these differences are particularly significant.

When it comes to singing a program of folk songs, such as a coffeehouse set or a concert, I see no problem with singing an English love song, followed by a Scottish ballad, followed by an American fo'c'sle chantey, followed by an Irish courting song, followed by an Ozark Mountain version of an English ballad—unless I decide to do a thematic program of some sort, such as all sea songs or all Scottish songs and ballads or all children's songs. Mixing and matching lends to the variety and interest a program, avoids a dulling "sameness" that can manifest itself, and it gives me an opportunity to inform my audiences through brief verbal "program notes" introducing some of the songs.

Since the vast majority of the early settlers of the North American continent were English, they naturally, brought their music with them. And this music passed down to their descendants. When some of these descendants moved westward, away from the urban centers that had sprung up on the east coast of what was to become the United States, for entertainment they had to call upon their own resources:   often only the contents of their memories. It is notable that the American cowboy—not the kind portrayed by Roy Rogers or John Wayne, but actual "cowboys" who were out working on cattle ranches herding cattle,—were quite literate and often had prodigious memories. Minding the herds (movie romanticism aside) was boring work, and to keep themselves entertained, they would often recite, to themselves or to each other, poems, passages from Shakespeare and other playwrights, and told stories. Since they couldn't pack books around in their saddlebags, they committed impressive quantities of material to memory and could call it up whenever they desired.

Among this material, of course, were many songs. It is no accident that many well-known folk songs associated with cowboys, such as "The Streets of Laredo," "St. James Infirmary," and others share many verses and often tell the same stories as pre-existing songs from the British Isles. The songs were remembered, and adapted to new circumstances—a common, classic aspect of the evolution of folk songs. On the trail, songs were sung without accompaniment, or sometimes accompanied by another cowboy playing the harmonica (small enough to carry in shirt pocket). When they were not out on the trail or otherwise working, many a bunkhouse had a guitar, usually Mexican-made, hanging on the wall to be used by anyone who could play it.

In the late nineteenth / early twentieth century, scholars discovered that in the somewhat isolated communities in the southern mountains of the United States, English, Irish, and Scottish songs and ballads were to be found, sometimes in almost pure form, but often also modified to new circumstances. This drew the attention of a number of song and ballad collectors, including Cecil J. Sharp, whose subsequent field trips produced the monumental collection, English Folk Songs in the Southern Appalachians.

This was reasonably well encapsulated in a movie (available on DVD) entitled "Songcatcher." The story is somewhat romanticized and the characters are fictional, but some of the fictional characters do have real-life counterparts. A few "folkies" are given to nit-pick about certain aspects of the film, but it is a well-made movie, and the broad outline on which the story is based happens to be true (the English song collector—obviously supposed to represent Sharp—is a bit too stereotypically "tally-ho, pip-pip" for my taste, but wotthehell?).

There is ample reason that when most people speak of "American folk music," they are referring to what might more properly be called "Anglo-American folk music," or a mixture of music from all over the British Isles, often somewhat adapted to new circumstances. But "American folk music" should also include Mexican, French, Italian, Scandinavian, and other music carried in in the memories of immigrants who have enriched American culture, and who have, likewise, adapted much of their music to new circumstances.

As I have mentioned to you before, David, although I have heard a bit of Amerindian or Native American music—chanting, drumming, flute—this is not my area of expertise and I would hesitate to try to comment on it with any authority. But here again, it's not as simple as you make it sound. When you refer to the music of Native Americans, you are talking about a wide variety to different cultures, ranging from the Iroquois and Algonquin in the northeast to the Seminoles in Florida on the east coast to the Ohlone peoples of California to the Pacific Northwest tribes such as the Suquamish and Duwamish (the city of Seattle, where I live, was named after the chief of these two tribes) or the Haida on the Queen Charlotte Islands of the coast of British Columbia.

So, although I am no expert on Native American music and culture, I do know that there is no single Native American culture, nor is there a single Native American body of music. To think so is a gross oversimplification.

Therefore, to call Amerindian chants and drums the "true traditional music of America" would be a bit like claiming that the "true traditional music of England" consists of Druid chants.

I do indeed hope that you are not suggesting that American singers of folk songs should be restricted to performing only Native American music.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:39 PM

While you've all stayed in ranting at the pathetic virtual non-poet, I've just been at an Eliza & Saul gig. Infinitely more edifying and enough to restore my belief in exquisite English (Québecois & Swedish) music in this dismal world. And WAV wasn't mentioned at all (well, just once . . . ) You see, he represents nothing and nobody, yet I agree he does need countering and flattening at every turn, for the sake of those who might not know better, give him credence and believe that his nonsensical and potentially dangerous ramblings are what we're all about.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM

WAV you're not a folkie any more than you're a poet.

You're a wannabee.

That's not necessarily bad.

However, most wannabees seek advancement by study, discussion, research and a knowledge of their own shortcomings.

Your knowledge of folk music is very limited. Your arguments are irrelevant and racially divisive.

Listen and read the people who know about folk music, the world, anthropology, toilets, sharpening knives and all the other wonderful topics covered on this erudite and friendly forum. Listen to their music, read their comments Try to learn

Your posturing does my country a disservice.

I believe that you may be capable of learning.

It starts with humility.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM

And to Don, who prefers to analyse a tad more calmly - do you see any differences between folk in America and England?

Oh no you don't. To David, who specifically said that there was an English style of guitar-playing: what distinguishes "English style" guitar playing? How do we recognise "English style" guitar playing when we hear it?

Anyway, back to those INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND. Off hand I can think of these: electric guitar, electric bass, drumkit, trumpet, flugelhorn, hunting horn, tenor sax, soprano sax, alto sax, saxello, flute[s], recorder[s], oboe, clarinet, bassoon, violin, viola, cello, double bass, tuba, euphonium, trombone, harpsichord, piano accordion, melodeon, Anglo concertina, English concertina, duet concertina, harmonium, pipe organ, Hammond organ, Lowry organ, Moog synthesiser, Yamaha VCS-3, Roland TR-808, Fairlight sequencer, Mellotron, grand piano, upright piano, Fender Rhodes piano, pianola, harpsichord, spinet, virginals, clavinet, four-string banjo, five-string banjo, ukulele, banjolele, mandolin, mandola, charango, lute, hurdy-gurdy, pan-pipes, tabla, sitar, tambura, bongos, congas, cajon, mbira, steel drums, didgeridoo, guitar, cittern, cithera, zither, dulcimer, hammered dulcimer, harp, autoharp, blues harp, Jew's harp, ARP synthesiser, stylophone, ocarina, Wasp, washboard, triangle and spoons. But I've probably missed a lot out.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

And Ralphie - you've now told me not to come to your folk club as you dislike my music so much, and now to "F... OFF"...so, as I said before, you better tell me what folk club it is, as I AM a keen folkie.
And to Don, who prefers to analyse a tad more calmly - do you see any differences between folk in America and England? Would you call Amerindian chants and drums the true traditional music of America?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:09 PM

Oi Ralphie!

When you've finished swearing at idiot re-pats, are youi likely to have any time for a quick pint tommorrow?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Hey Don.
I apologise for my uncouth language.
I have great respect for music of all genres. UK, US, Europe,
And the rest...Africa, Asia, China.
My epithets (as directed at the Wanker WAV,) were mine, and mine alone.
I know that Ms Carthy, who has single mindedly championed the music of my island, both by talking and performing it for many years, is absolutely right when she says that the outpourings of people like WAV have an immense negative vibe attached.
He may mean well, who knows?
But, where are his supporters?
Have you seen one? I haven't...
If I were he. (and I thank the Lord that I'm not)
I would be feeling very small.
Ms Carthy takes no prisoners.
My very best to you and yours, and look forward to all your interesting points in the future.
I apologise for one of my compatriots.
It's called "Care in the Community" over here.
Why did it have to be this community?!
Ralph

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

You know, I don't think he has a single Northern English Australian repatriates' song in his repertoire, or North-Eastern forklifter songs, or Australian anthropology majors' songs...

Anyway, before Wav bangs on about his single degree and tech. certificates (which aren't that imposing an achievement anyway), here is a story my dad told me the other day.
Several years ago, he and mum went to a lecture by one of Israel's most prominent archaeologists, a man who had had over 40 years' experience. In the middle of his talk about one of the digs, he looked at the audience and stopped. "Why am I bothering, this man is the one to tell you about it." Who was the man? A simple kibbutz member, with no formal education beyond highschool, yet he was the expert on that site, living most of his life around it and carrying out most of the work and research!!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

"FOLK MUSIC: Music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia). (And I have checked others and found similar.)"

So—why should this dictate what I, or anyone else, should be allowed to sing? Or how we should be allowed to sing it?

If the idea that one should be allowed to sing only songs from one's own national, ethnic, or regional culture were some sort of "Universal Law," as you apparently wish it to be, I think folk music would have shriveled and died centuries ago. Many of the finest singers of folk songs extant now were urban-born and raised on a diet of whatever music (popular, classical, etc.) they happened to have been exposed to as they grew up. Most of them, like me, heard their first folk songs on the radio or on records (or, quite possibly live, from some singer who learned his or her songs from records and/or song books), and became interested in the songs per se.

The first folk songs I heard came from sources like this, and the songs themselves came from all over the Anglo-American folk song world:   from the rural south of the United States, from England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales (where, I regret, I have never been), from logging camps in upstate New York and the Pacific Northwest (I've never worked as a logger), fishing songs, whaling songs and other sea songs from all over the world's oceans (ship's crews were often muli-national, multi-cultural, although most of my maritime travel has been on car-carrying ferry boats between Seattle and Bainbridge Island or Bremerton, or sport fishing with my father), railroad songs (I've ridden on trains, but I've never been at the throttle during a train wreck, nor have I lined track on a chain gang), prison songs (being fairly law-abiding, I've never been to prison), and I even sing a few songs in French, though I've never been to France. Well, you get the point.

If I were allowed to sing only songs from my national, ethnic, and cultural background, I would have damned little in the way of folk songs to sing. And with the exception of singers such as Jean Ritchie, who grew up in Viper County, Kentucky and learned her songs from her family, the same holds for the vast majority of performers of folk songs and ballads, both those who are very well known through their concerts and recordings and those who sing only in folk clubs, with a few friends, or in the privacy of their own homes.

And that includes you, David!

Think about it.

Don Firth

P. S. Someone (Alan Lomax, I think--??) once characterized a folk song printed in a book or, for that matter, recorded or any single performance, as like a photograph of a bird in flight. You are seeing the bird for only one instant in its lifetime. It existed before this and it continues to exist afterward.

And folk songs are like birds in another way as well:   they, like the vagrant breezes that I mentioned above, are no respecters of political borders or cultural restrictions. They go anywhere they wish.

Why would anyone want them to be locked in cages?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

WAV
Hope that you are pleased that Eliza Carthy has lowered herself to give you a right bollocking.
So, Maybe you should refute her arguments with your extensive knowledge of Folk Music.
It is extensive, isn't it?
Four Years???
Must have misunderstood you then....Yes? No??
Oh...Not quite four?
Talent....Oh! You Haven't got any? Going to disagree??
I just hope that you are proud of yourself that you've managed to piss off one of the most important artists in "YOUR" England.
Now kindly (and with great respect)
FUCK OFF
The rest of us will carry on quite nicely without you.
And
Take that crap that you call poetry with you.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

...in support of that, Jack, I've had a chin-wag with a chap called Bert, who has won the abovementioned World Spoons Championship, and I'm sure he also mentioned some kind of heat-treatment.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM

The deep-fried spoons are described by Picken in his 1975 book, with some theorizing about the physics behind it. He doesn't suggest it was a new idea at the time, so it looks like they go back a few decades at least, and since some of the ways they are used are rather elaborate, more likely a lot longer.

Julian Goodacre's workshop has an oil heater for treating pieces of bagpipe, and I asked him if he was using the deep-frying technique. He said no, but other makers of wind instruments did.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

If England 50 years ago was, culturaly, a much more English place, and if almost no one sang E. trad, then, following Wav's logic, E. trad really isn't part of England's own good culture........

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

Spoonful of Pseudonym is my copyright, thankee. I rather like 'He who must not be named' too.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

Is that Sean alias Sedayne alias Insane Beard alias (dropping the "d" soon) We Subvert Koalas alias Cojeebear's Spectral Redidue...what a spoonful of pseudonym!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

The Oxford English Dictionary is (unusually) more concise:

Folk music: music of popular origin.

Works for me.

"what constitutes your own in this context, especially given that few of us were brought up with this stuff anyway?"

I heard a headline act sing about how she had a row with her boyfriend and he won, so she went outside and snapped the wing mirror off his car. (Slight American accent, acoustic guitar, barre chords.) I think she was singing from her own culture. Give me the idiosyncratic antiquarianism of working from 30-year-old LPs and facsimile broadsides any day.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Coojeebear's Spectral Residue
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:48 PM

The dreadful McColl "Singers Club" style of venue didn't last that long. And let's be thankful for that as you say, although one hears of Ewan McColl cribbing a lot of Islamic techniques for his authentic native folk mannerisms. Actually, just how many clubs had this perform-your-own policy I wonder? Do any have it now? Do any singers have it now? And what constitutes your own in this context, especially given that few of us were brought up with this stuff anyway? Does WAV think of it as his own? Actually, I think he probably does - even though he's only been singing for 200 weeks or so he seems to be of the impression that his singing is the benchmark of The Tradition. Whatever the case I hear his Cob a Coaling (currently playing on his myspace site) is the hippest thing for sampling - some cool mixes in the offing for bonfire night!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM

"M Snail.
I'm waiting for 668,
The Neighbour of the Beast.
Or even 667." Ralphie who got 666 on the BS Weekly Walkabout, by the way.
And Howard's way is that there is no such thing as an amateur gig...?

"David, spoons are still not a musical instrument. My long lost aunt Lal wrote a four-line poem better than anything you have ever come up with about a homeless man who played "upon the laces of his shoes" because he had nothing else. It doesn't make shoes a musical instrument either, it means that the human being is the one that makes the music, because that's what it's all about.
And since your response to pleading you to help your cause and yourself by having some grace and being quiet for a bit in order to learn more and be useful to said cause was to post something you've written yourself from your almost barren in respect of this massive subject, closed mind...bye again. If you stick around and remain this way, I will be forced to try and help you again, because as I said I can't help myself. But I repeat, you're an ignorant weirdo and you are actively ruining the reputation of English folk and traditional music. I stand against you for that, it's unforgiveable." (Eliza)...I'm no spoons player, possum, but I think many may have a bone to pick (if not play) with you on this one...I've heard others say the bodhran is not a musical instrument - what's your stance on that?
Don - "FOLK MUSIC: Music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia). (And I have checked others and found similar.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

I see it's very old chestnut time (again).

This "policy", decided by the members of one club for that venue alone was to encourage performers to draw material firstly from their own background and experience and to sing it in their own voices in a language or dialect that they understood and used.

Martin Carthy (among others) has acknowledged the value and importance of this policy (whether instigated by Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger or A N Other) at that time because it encouraged the exploration of indigenous English music rather than tedious copying of the repertoires of the then prominent US artists.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

Fascinating article on RVW in the new Fortean Times in respect of folk songs, hymns and suchlike. Check it out - WAV especially! He might learn something about another level of Englishness which I suspect might have eluded him thus far in his efforts to Repatriate.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

Hi Don Firth.
The sound of the doffing of caps is sent in your direction!
You sound like a reasonable chap.
Nice to touch base with you.
The dreadful McColl "Singers Club" style of venue didn't last that long. thank (insert favourite Deity here).
Life in the UK is much more tolerant nowadays. (WAV permitting)
McColl was a clever chap, but some of his ideas on performance left a lot to be desired.
Never mind.....That was then, this is now.
Have a quiet evening. And keep playing!!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

". . . several earlier folk clubs in England DID have a perform-your-own-national-culture policy."

I've heard about that, WAV. That may be a fact, but it certainly doesn't justify either your position or the restrictive position of such folk clubs. There are major problems with such a policy, not the least of which is that many songs and ballads that people tend to assume are indigenous are not, they're "immigrants." It would take a ballad-scholar-in-residence at each of these folk clubs to pass on which songs are acceptable and which are not.

Folk music is like the vagrant breeze, WAV. It is no respecter of political or cultural boundaries. It goes where it will.

You say "earlier folk clubs." Did it ever occur to you (before you came to your own conclusions) why these clubs abandoned this policy?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

Can we leave spoons out of the equation?
Spoons are dull.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM

English spoons are deep-fried in chip fat, as any fule kno.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM

"Spoons people play are usually not also used to eat with, so I 'd say they ARE musical instruments. In Turkey you get specially-made musical wooden spoons - they deep-fry them in olive oil to improve the tone."

That is true of today, but I would think that a modern phenomenon.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM

Hi Eliza.
Thanks for the xxx
Have got into your new CD a bit more.
Lots of cool stuff in there.
Your take on "Hug You" is not as minimalist as the Frasers version, but, what the heck!

Have a great time in the House tomorrow.
Wish I could be there.
Say Hello to Shirley C et al.
Mr VW was a jolly nice chap.
Wrote a few good symphonies If I remember correctly.
(and...Lucy Broadwood was a jolly nice chap too!)
Hopefully bump into you soon.
Now....Back to WAV baiting.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

Spoons people play are usually not also used to eat with, so I 'd say they ARE musical instruments. In Turkey you get specially-made musical wooden spoons - they deep-fry them in olive oil to improve the tone.

Regardless, David is still an ignorant weirdo and a disgrace to English culture.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM

hi Ralphie xxx
David, spoons are still not a musical instrument. My long lost aunt Lal wrote a four-line poem better than anything you have ever come up with about a homeless man who played "upon the laces of his shoes" because he had nothing else. It doesn't make shoes a musical instrument either, it means that the human being is the one that makes the music, because that's what it's all about.
And since your response to pleading you to help your cause and yourself by having some grace and being quiet for a bit in order to learn more and be useful to said cause was to post something you've written yourself from your almost barren in respect of this massive subject, closed mind...bye again. If you stick around and remain this way, I will be forced to try and help you again, because as I said I can't help myself. But I repeat, you're an ignorant weirdo and you are actively ruining the reputation of English folk and traditional music. I stand against you for that, it's unforgiveable.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

Come On Volga.
There is no point in continuing.
I'm as bad as you, but it's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.
Let it (and him) go.
He won't be appearing at a gig near you anytime soon, will he?
See you on a more interesting thread sometime.
But, you strike me as an intelligent chap.
Hi! And thanks for your input.
Kind Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

As part of the ongoing effort to educate WAV into English culture, can I explain to him that the word "gig" is generally used to mean a paid professional engagement. Floorspots, singarounds, busking in the street and singing in the bath don't count.

WAV, by referring to your "gigs" you're implying that you've been paid to perform. Perhaps you also imagine that masquerading as a gigging performer somehow gives your bizarre views greater authority. Having briefly endured some of your website offerings I find it hard to believe that anyone would pay you to perform, except perhaps as a malicious joke, but of course I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

Eliza, Volgadon, Possums - can you accept that my title "Instruments of (or closely associated with) England" doesn't say that these instruments are not associated with any other nation?

Because your list is so unbelievably ridiculous. You refuse to include several instruments which really have had a folk currency in England, especially the fiddle, on grounds of their foreign origin, yet you ignore that rule if they ever had English in the title.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

M Snail.
I'm waiting for 668,
The Neighbour of the Beast.
Or even 667.
The bloke who lives across the road from the Beast, but keeps getting his post by mistake, and is thoroughly pissed off by it!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:01 AM

Hey WSK.
Don't tell me that Ms McAlatia is a late entrant in Ruths competition?
Doesn't stand a chance IMHO.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM

WAV
Nice to see you back, getting this thread under some sort of control.
It was all going to the dogs, quite frankly.
Shakey eggs, arses, etc, etc.
Lovely to see you posting one of your marvellous poems for our delectation.
(Woops sorry, you don't do irony, do you?)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:49 AM

can you accept that my title "Instruments of (or closely associated with) England" doesn't say that these instruments are not associated with any other nation?

Those of us who love folk music (call it what you will) generally do so with an appreciation of the inherent cultural diversity / continuity of such matters without paying too much heed to the sort of frontiers that are so much a part of The WAV Approach - the above aberration notwithstanding of course which would appear to give to the lie to most everything he's said on the matter hitherto. What gives, WAV?

Meanwhile, in an attempt to tie up the various strands of this thread thus far (London Derriere and all) here's Granma McAlatia posing with England's National Musical Instrument, though one suspects she might have been abroad at the time. Yes, WAV, other countries have bells too. Time, methinks, to ring the changes...