England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

> the recorder is in no way, shape or form a folk instrument - it's a dynamic classical flute developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque.

People in England (and everywhere else) were playing and dancing to recorders, informally and recreationally, for centuries. Look at the iconography for a start. This instrument goes back to long before they had such concepts as "classical".

> virtuosity

just means you're flash at playing your instrument, not that it has to be a concert stage performance. It can just as easily be done in the tavern yard.

> chromaticism

Because you can cross-finger it and get sharps & flats, it can't be a folk instrument?   

> Requiring a relatively simple embouchure made the recorder ideal as a parlour novelty, but is that really folk music?

Because it's easier to blow notes out of, it can't be a folk instrument?

> because the recorder died out when it was superseded by the transverse flute, a fair case can be made against it ever being considered as anything else other than the early chromatic classical flute it undoubtedly is.

Because it was eventually displaced by the transverse flute, this somehow invalidates its prior existence? Recorders were in use for hundreds of years, for a variety of purposes, before they died out. How does the eventual ascendancy of the German flute nullify that past history?

> no matter what tunes they were playing out of their tutor books; folk music is, after all, more than dots in a tutor book.

Yes - and where do you suppose the books got those tunes from???   From the folks playing them, dancing to them, singing them - some on fipple flutes. If that's not folk music, what is?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

Insane Beard

it's a dynamic classical flute developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque.

Bit like the violin then.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:35 PM

thus effectively ruining the experience of music making for millions of school children

I dunno, it definitely got me started. I still remember the realisation that this thing will play whatever tune I tell it to, not just the ones I've been taught to play!: a feeling of limitless possibilities opening up, like few other experiences before or since. Yes, it was a mass-produced plastic recorder, and no, I didn't make a particularly beautiful sound with it (especially since the first tune I worked out was God Save the Queen) - but it opened the door.

Still naff all to do with the jolly old Eng. trad., of course.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

Alright, Jack, valid point

Or perhaps not... After all, these 18th century recorder tutors were aimed at bourgeois hobbyists - hardly the traditional folk musicians whose rustic repertoires were greedily plundered out of long standing fashionably for same. A crucial difference perhaps? Also - the recorder is in no way, shape or form a folk instrument - it's a dynamic classical flute developed for chromaticism and virtuosity reaching its apotheosis as a solo orchestral instrument of the high Baroque. Requiring a relatively simple embouchure made the recorder ideal as a parlour novelty, but is that really folk music? I would say perhaps not, no matter what tunes they were playing out of their tutor books; folk music is, after all, more than dots in a tutor book. I would further argue that because the recorder died out when it was superseded by the transverse flute, a fair case can be made against it ever being considered as anything else other than the early chromatic classical flute it undoubtedly is.

When the recorder was revived it was not as a folk instrument. I think this misconception is in part due it finding its way into education as a primer for proper woodwind instruments (entirely due it being easy to cheaply mass produce in Bakelite (Dolomite?) and latterly plastic) thus effectively ruining the experience of music making for millions of school children. Not so much a musical instrument, as an instrument of torture - a further case against the recorder as folk instrument!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

GUEST,Volgadon posts:

Alright, Jack, valid point

That's very gracious of Volgadon, and herein lies the problem: WAV will never admit that he's wrong. I fear that he's delusional. I hope that doesn't turn nasty.

Ed

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:47 PM

Alright, Jack, valid point.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM

: Find me one shred of evidence that any traddy or folkie before the revival ever
: used a recorder to play E. trad.

Look at English recorder tutors from the mid-18th century (e.g. Rutherford). They all include a mixture of Scottish, English and Irish folk tunes (but usually more Scottish than anything else). As well as Handel, Arne and the like.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

WAV, RE RVW, I tried to post, but the cat is allergic to the youtube links I had. Go to youtube, type in 'English folksong suite', 'fantasia on greensleeves' and 'five variations on Dives and Lazarus', that should be enough to start from.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM

"Aha, so traddies back in the day would perform their songs with a full orchestra using innovative arrangements which were quite modern for RVW's period?" (Volgadon in a dizzy spell?)...please read my last post again and note RVW collected and THEN harmonised TUNES (as in top-line melodies only).
And it was mainly Germans and English who brought the recorder back as a folk and student instrument early in the 20th century...and now we have both German and English fingering/holes.

"Would that be Irish whistles?" (Stu - also on a dizzy spell?)...Irish music is sometimes played on an ENGLISH whistle...which evolved from the English flageolet in England.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

your lyrics and voice (which I quite like) are E. trad, but your accompaniment is not, and you delight in the fact that elements of foreign cultures are practised much more here now than our own English ones...so, if you are a trady, you're a strange one.

There's your error in a nutshell, WAV. IB may delight in eating Big Macs on Cecil Sharp's grave while listening to Britney Spears for all I care - what makes him a 'traddie' is that he learns and performs traditional material. Judge him - and yourself - on musical grounds and you may, perhaps, feel slightly less entitled to pass judgment.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

Aha, so traddies back in the day would perform their songs with a full orchestra using innovative arrangements which were quite modern for RVW's period?

I don't see how a symphony orchestra is any more trad than a guitar or eastern fiddle.

I see that the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival also has a competition for highland bagpipes, I guess those are E. trad instruments too.

Find me one shred of evidence that any traddy or folkie before the revival ever used a recorder to play E. trad.
Without that evidence, it is nothing more than WISHFUL THINKING to call it an E. trad instrument. The kemance is just as valid.
Especially when we consider that kemances are a purely folk instrument, whereas recorders were used for POP and ART music. What is more, the earliest depiction is found in MACEDONIA.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:42 PM

For your information:

The English guitar (or guittar) was a small cittern that was fashionable between 1750 and 1790, most notably in the British Isles, closely related to other citterns that were being made in western Europe at the time (such as the instrument the French called the guitarre allemande) but with several particular specifications introduced by the English luthiers. The English cittern was brought by the English to Portugal, possibly circa 1750, through the trading activity held between the two countries at the time. This fact is observed by António da Silva Leite in 1786, who remarks in his method for the instrument the following: "The guitar, of which they say has its origins in Great-Britain..."; "Of the guitars from England, Mr. Simpson is the best maker.". The local luthiers then proceed to imitate and copy the foreign instruments. Eventually, the instrument was subject to modifications and improvements through the years and it remained popular in Portugal long after the fad died in the remaining European countries. By as early as 1820 the English already referred to it as the "Portuguese guitar".

More HERE. Scroll down.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Would that be Irish whistles?

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

RVW, Volgadon, collected/recorded E. trad tunes and added harmonies for his New English Hymnal.
The recorder/English flute was probably rarely used by folkies here until the turn of the 20th century - but it is one of the "instruments of (or closely associated with) England" (opening post, above or here) and, thus, could be called a traditional English instrument...it's certainly been played in this land for a long time; and, at the Rothbury TRADITIONAL Music Festival, there is a competition for whistles AND recorders.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

"IB - realistically, your lyrics and voice (which I quite like) are E. trad, but your accompaniment is not, and you delight in the fact that elements of foreign cultures are practised much more here now than our own English ones...so, if you are a trady, you're a strange one."

RALPH VAUGHN-WILLIAMS. He took English folk tunes and added accompaniement which was NOT E. trad in any way shape or form.

Not only that, but your use of recorder is NOT E. trad either, WAV.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

Ah Mr Beard.
I have consulted with the Bench.
And we have (on your appraisal) to commute your sentence, to a medley of ...

Gentle Giant.
National Health.
Gilgamesh.
Hugh Hopper.
Matching Mole.
Caravan.
Hatfield and the North.
And, The Oevre of Kevin Coyne.....

Would that be acceptable (In a very English way!!)??

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

IB - realistically, your lyrics and voice (which I quite like) are E. trad, but your accompaniment is not, and you delight in the fact that elements of foreign cultures are practised much more here now than our own English ones...so, if you are a trady, you're a strange one.

"Hate to do comparisons, but, consider Martyn Whyndham-Read (a good friend, sorry Martyn to drag you into this)
Similar story.
Born in the UK.
Spent many years in Aus.
Came back, a talented singer, and musician, bringing his twist on Australian culture and it's links to its UKs origins.
(Check out his 2 double cds Songlinks 1 UK/Aus and Songlinks 2 UK/US)
All done with a gentle humour and a great deal of respect.
Maybe WAV, you should check these out, before we send you to Coventry." (Ralphie)...there is a slight chance I may one day live in Coventry, as it's WITHIN the borders of England but, unlike MW-R, I will never live in France (although I've enjoyed a VISIT there), and, as an English repat, I only practise/perform English (no-longer Australian) material. (And this is NOT nearly as radical as you make out if you remember/realise that, not so long ago, many folk-clubs in England had a pefrorm-your-own-culture policy.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

Having sat through half of a Motorhead concert ... great stuff (but dire effects on the hearing ... being deaf for half a day did little for my equilibrium) my mind boggles at the thought of recorders played at volumes exceeding Motorhead's own .... now I could understand it if you had said bombardes .... but then they aren't English are they??

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM

In my defence, M'lud, let me say this - that the body of work in question is often referred to as such by its author, with the html link being very much part of the typographical rendering. To this end, I confess that I did toy with rendering it thus Life's Work, or even Life's Work, but when it comes to pure vileness there is no image I know of that can possibly convey the full horror of the actual work in question.

In any case, I snickeringly accept the sentence in the knowledge that no such English Citterns or English Flutes are presently extant, but will happily accept Gentle Giant who did similar things with a full consort of wooden recorders at volumes often surpassing even that of Motorhead. Yes - Gentle Giant playing one of those confounded American Genres best heard in - where was it again - Atlanta?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM

Neither discussion nor argument WAV. Think of Mudcat as a group of (mostly)kindly and (almost always) knowledgeable professors with a wish to correct a learner in the fields of their expertise

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

Culture is that which life is lived by - in terms of experience, expression, communication, community and celebration - and, as such, it is the default reality of everything we are.

True wit is nature to advantage dressed:
What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed. (A. Pope)

Nice one, IB.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphi
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

NOTE TO MR BEARD (INSANE OF THIS PARISH)

You have been found guilty of referring to WAVs website as a link in your previous post, found guilty as charged (Shut up, I'm the judge here!), and have been sentenced to life imprisonment listening to some wonderful English (sic) Cittern, and English (sic) Recorder music, at a level only normally found at a Motorhead gig (you know them. That American Pop combo!),
Whilst watching (English) Woman with enourmous veined arms, Sumo Wrestling......with a dog. (English Setter obviously)
Second thoughts you can't have the last bit, you might enjoy it!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

Pip.

Isn't it obvious why WAV posts here???
By baiting the rest of us, he's hoping to be accepted.
A stranger in a foreign land, type of thing.
What he hasn't realised is that his way of getting to know us "foreigners" (for that is what we are in fact as far as he is concerned), will only alienate us.
What he has singularly failed to understand is that, if you beat us over the head with a stick, we will bite back.
As the rest of you well know, we all basically rub along reasonably well here in the UK. The occasional disagreement, but nothing that isn't normally dealt with with a shrug and a joke.
But a sustained attack from an interloper (For that is he) will provoke, at first, mild rebukes and mild jokes, and if the provoking continues (as is happening at the moment), downright ridicule, ending in very great anger....(we seem to be approaching that stage now).
Who wins? Well, certainly not WAV, that's for sure!
His agenda? Who really knows.
As a self-publicist (viz,) the interminable plugging of his, at first laughable, but with closer examination, subversive Website, at every opportunity, he is without equal. But ultimately pointless.
IMHO opinion his Poetry? is on a sub McGonagel level.
Seems to me, he is an Ex Pat, lost in the land of his forefathers, tryng to find where he fits after all those years down under, and failing with little self-respect left. Very sad.

So WAV, just stop trying. We are not impressed.

Hate to do comparisons, but, consider Martyn Whyndham-Read (a good friend, sorry Martyn to drag you into this)

Similar story.
Born in the UK.
Spent many years in Aus.
Came back, a talented singer, and musician, bringing his twist on Australian culture and it's links to its UKs origins.
(Check out his 2 double cds Songlinks 1 UK/Aus and Songlinks 2 UK/US)
All done with a gentle humour and a great deal of respect.

Maybe WAV, you should check these out, before we send you to Coventry.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

IB - we agree on the stotties but "my son and daughter - 21 & 27 respectively - who both still live there, and who both, though brought up in very folkie household, are avid fans of hip-hop and have no time for folk music in any shape or form! How cool's that?"...as ice.

My children are native born English people, WAV; and like all native born English people, they have the free will to choose what Englishness means to them. They too know more about Traditional English Folk Music than you ever will, but - and get this - they simply don't like it. And why the hell should they like it? It's not as if it was ever part of the wider cultural context of working-class Tyneside in which they grew up. It's just a remnant of something old, songs now sung by middle-aged middle-class enthusiasts in the museum of their own imaginings. A good place to be for some of us perhaps, but for most people it's complete and utter nonsense.

Culture is not the absolute commodity you seem to think it is - it's not something you can buy your way into, or yet wish yourself a part or even a practitioner of. Culture is that which life is lived by - in terms of experience, expression, communication, community and celebration - and, as such, it is the default reality of everything we are. As one who supposedly majored in anthropology, you really should understand this; just as you should also understand that what you have there isn't culture at all, English or otherwise, rather the misbegotten spoils of an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder for which I really do hope you eventually get the help you so obviously need.

"I am still learning what it means to be a Traddy." (IB)...we agree on that too.

I don't think we do agree on it though, WAV - because learning is the key to life; it's an ongoing process that begins at birth and only comes to an end when we die. Sadly, and very disappointingly, you've made it your Life's Work to be the single exception to this most glorious human rule. You're the poet who no longer writes poetry, the folk singer who no longer learns songs, the traveller who no longer travels; the hapless idealogue who assumes that all the nonsensical crap he wrote years ago is still somehow relevant, even unto himself. You reached the terminus of your life long ago; copyright 2003; at which point you stopped dead, whilst the world kept on moving, transfiguring itself with each new glorious dawn.

You've set yourself against humanity - in your thinking, your ideas, your dogma, your rhetoric; you've walled yourself in behind your own entrenched philosophy convinced that you've stumbled on an absolute truth. Truth is the very last thing it is; it doesn't even bear scrutiny on any level before people see it for the bilious racist totalitarian sexist misanthropic evil it actually is. You do this in the name of Traditional Music, you even do it in the name of Christianity, but at its heart is a big black devilish hole sucking the life from everything you claim to so love and cherish.

The solution is a simple one; de-clutter! Delete the lot and wake up to reality. Come out and play, join us in the real world before it really is too late.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

Rubbish, Radish...try, e.g., a handful of posts to IB's mention/questioning of the English cittern.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM

Really? The last comment about the ostensible topic of this thread was 34 comments and three days ago. The fact that you seem entirely untroubled by this drift away from musical topics, WAV - and, in fact, seem to welcome it - makes me wonder, again, about your motives in posting here.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:33 AM

Pip and Fidgit - we ARE discussing/arguing ON-THREAD a fair bit of the time here, so, if you don't like it, simply don't click on it, rather than whinging to the Mods.

IB - we agree on the stotties but "my son and daughter - 21 & 27 respectively - who both still live there, and who both, though brought up in very folkie household, are avid fans of hip-hop and have no time for folk music in any shape or form! How cool's that?"...as ice.
"I am still learning what it means to be a Traddy." (IB)...we agree on that too.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Fidjit
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

Pip Radish

I agree.

Perhaps it's time to get out my English National Musical Instrument suggestion and prove the point.

Chas










































Perhaps i

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave (Bridge)
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

Wish you hadn't mentioned Joe Crane's Cum all ye. We don't want it spoilt

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

haven't been for a few weeks, do they stock English citterns now?

No such thing as an English Cittern, WAV - at least not with the sort of continuous provenance you dream of; it's a reinvented beast along the lines of the Irish Bouzouki. Like the English Flute, it exists only in your fevered imagination.

So you were happy to get a taste of all those other musical genres, in a city of England, without any "Morris Dancers, Folk Singers" (IB)

Of course I was happy! These were all people out there, doing stuff for the love of it and very much a part of the very English cosmopolitan cultural ambience of this very cosmopolitan English city - my home town indeed, from which I now live some 130 miles distant. I was there with my wife, and my son and daughter - 21 & 27 respectively - who both still live there, and who both, though brought up in very folkie household, are avid fans of hip-hop and have no time for folk music in any shape or form! How cool's that? And, as proud as I am of them, I am proud too to be a Geordie, and never prouder than I was yesterday, soaking it all in and stocking up with Gregg's stotties and all. We also went along Stowell Street, aka China Town, the supermarkets & restaurants & buffets of which have been an integral aspect of the cultural landscape of Newcastle since my childhood - long before you fetched up with your grubby evil notions of Ersatz Englishness; likewise the Asian shops on the West Road, where back in the early 1980s we lived on Fazal's superlative samosas whilst freely mixing experimental industrial noise and Traditional English Folk Song, lazing summer days to the music of Billy Pigg or seeking out the wonders to be had on Thursday nights at The Bridge Folk Club.   

as I say, you are an extreme pro-immigrationist, and a lot of tradies, including me, would be bothered by the lack of English culture you describe,

How dare call yourself a Traddy or yet use the word to justify your racist bullshit? I am more of an English Traddy that you'll ever be, WAV - in the English Traddy stakes I could whip your sorry Aussie arse all around England and back again. You are a man who by his own proud boast has only 17 E Trads in his repertoire, and most of them sourced from an American website. Moreover, you have an expressed intention of never learning any more. What sort of Traddy is that? There are some 70 E trads in the PBOEFS; when I was fifteen I made a point of learning them all. I have been singing E trads for over thirty-three years and have forgotton more songs than you'll ever know. I'm still trying to research and learn 5 new songs at any one time; and, furthermore, I am still learning what it means to be a Traddy.

One thing I do know however, is that with the territory of being a true English Traddy goes an understanding of just what place Traditional English Folk Song, Dance and Folklore has within English Culture as a whole - that it's very much a revived minority hobbyist passion with no actual traditional currency whatsoever. For my feelings on this, please read my polemical blog The Liege, the Lief and the Traditional English Folk Song over at my Myspace page. Heavens, man - you seem to be labouring under the illusion that by learning 17 E trads you have become a Traditional English Folk Singer. In this respect I fear, you are, at best, at the beginning of a very long & fruitful journey (in which case I wish you God Speed) or, at worst, utterly & hopelessly deluded (in which case, sir, I bid you Good Riddance).

as would many foreign tourists, scraping through the haystack to try and find a needle of the English culture they intended to get a taste of.

Any tourist would find plenty of English Culture in Newcastle or any English town or city they visited; it's there at every turn. But if they wanted Trad. E. Folk Song, Dance (etc.) they'd have to adopt a more specialist approach for a more specialised taste, lurking as it does on the fringes and in the shadowy places which are its natural habitats. They'd find out about Joe Crane's first Saturday Come-All-Ye at The Cumberland Arms, and they'd be sure to find it thriving too, as the whole folk scene is; indeed doing rather better now than it ever has in any point since the revival began. But please note: it's just a revival, WAV - a minority hobby that in no way shape or form constitutes English Culture. And remember - only 0.028% of the English population are Morris Dancers, and most of them probably do Line Dancing too. I wonder what the percentage is for singers of E trads, unaccompanied or otherwise?

However, "customary whinge about modern art." (IB)...we'd agree on that one!

Don't be so sure, WAV - as well as being an extreme pro-immigrationist and extreme English Traddy, I am also an extreme modernist in respect of political philosophy, humanism and art. I whinge about modern art because it cow-tows to the simpering vacuities of the post-modern whilst maintaining its status as comfortable corporate gew-gaw on the cultural mantelpiece of the mediocre. That said, I liked Claire Morgan's Gone With the Wind exhibit at the Laing and would strongly recommend a visit next time you're passing.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Please, please, please, please, take it somewhere else. This thread is currently getting far more prominence than it deserves - and giving WAV's political opinions far more prominence than they deserve. Mods?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:37 AM

Ummm, WAV, for most tourists, English culture seems to riding on a double-decker and poking faces at the sentries at Buckingham Palace.....
They don't really go searching for English culture, let alone your perception of it. Now, do find me a refference to there being morris dancers in city streets on a daily basis?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

"I also had a go on a Mexican guitarron - a fretless acoustic bass which sounded lovely. Also in Windows, I bought a banjo capo so as I might play my old fiddle in the manner of a kemence." (IB)...haven't been for a few weeks, do they stock English citterns now?

So you were happy to get a taste of all those other musical genres, in a city of England, without any "Morris Dancers, Folk Singers" (IB)...as I say, you are an extreme pro-immigrationist, and a lot of tradies, including me, would be bothered by the lack of English culture you describe, as would many foreign tourists, scraping through the haystack to try and find a needle of the English culture they intended to get a taste of.

However, "customary whinge about modern art." (IB)...we'd agree on that one!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM

Here is an interesting statement by a Maxim Goryachev, who may or may not be the same social activisit I know, need to check, but it's food for thought.

I don't like salo (pig lard, the national Ukrainian delicacy), I don't wear an embroidered shirt and don't know the words to the Ukrainian national anthem.

I haven't swam across the Dnepr and can't dance the hopak (best known of all Ukrainian dances, with lots of jumping). There is no copy of "Kobzar" (a poem by Taras Shevchenko, one of the foremost nationalists) on my desk and the walls are not lined with rushnyks (ritual, embroiedered towels). My blood is red, not blue and yellow.
The three most important words I said in Russian. Am I Ukrainian?

I'm a dedicated fan of "Dynamo" (footie club), a fan of Klichko and Klochkova (the former a boxer, the latter, a swimmer).

I saw this land from the window of a Boeing, but I returned. I don't need neon cities and silicone women. I don't want to live there where the streets are nameless and the people have no patronymics.
I'll remain here. Here the fires which swept the land have barely gone out and the names of our forefathers are still visible on the memorial plaques (I.E. WW2 wasn't too far back).
Here girls read in the subway and write verses in the margins of textbooks. On the money here are poets, not presidents.
Here people have a good sense of humour and smile openly, sincerely.
I'm Ukrainian.

I love the narrow streets of Lvov and the avenues in Kharkov. Easy-going Odessa, business-like Donetsk and the legendary Poltava, they have all become dear to me.

I don't trust patriots on podiums, I believe in the man in the trenches.
I believe in this land- I trust this air, these mountains, these people, who keep their word.
I love the sound my feet make against the tiles on Khreshatik st (the central street of Kiev), the creaking of the snow in the Carpathians and the rustling of the waves in the Crimea.
I will never forget the lullabies I've heard, or the kisses I received on Andreevsky st.

And what is more, I frequently dream about the vast blue skies and sunflower fields. My son will be born here. I'm Ukrainian!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:36 AM

"GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (see this week's WEEKLY WALKABOUT in the BS section), including fair-trade - via the UN, the nations within the UN, and local/county councils within nations.

I think WAV's setting himself up for world presidency here; a nice multi-cultural world it'll be too, with all the nations ethnically cleansed and sorted and everyone put back where they belong and given strict instructions on what instruments they may or may not play and what songs they may or may not sing. And anyone who doesn't fit, or is just naturally recalcitrant to such a mind-numbing regime... well there'll be a special train for those no doubt; it'll have to be a bloody big one, and I'll be the first on it because I'm sure I'd rather be dead than live in such a world. Then WAV gets the third of his three-wishes - a smaller population!

We were out and about in Newcastle yesterday; first stop, the City Surplus Stores, an Asian-owned friendly family business which has clothed Tyneside's alternative scene for thirty years and more; second stop, the Laing Art Gallery to visit some dear old friends (though Isabella is away on her travels) and for a customary whinge about modern art. Afterwards, we tucked into Subways beneath the dribbling statue of Old Father Tyne nearby the monolith that commemorates the visit of President Jimmy Carter in May 1977 - the same month I saw The Damned supporting T Rex at the City Hall. Then it was off to visit some more old friends in The Museum of Antiquities only to find they've closed it down and are relocating the collection to the Great North Museum, that was once The Hancock. Things change, move on, and it's always the first time for someone. In Windows, I played a Chieftain D whistle (£130) that was so loud it hurt my ears; I also had a go on a Mexican guitarron - a fretless acoustic bass which sounded lovely. Also in Windows, I bought a banjo capo so as I might play my old fiddle in the manner of a kemence. Outside in the Central Arcade we applauded a couple of young lads who were busking pop songs with acoustic guitars to the beat of the Djembe player who was drumming up a storm 100 yards away on Gray's Monument. We stood in the crowds to watch the Native American couple busking in costume in Northumberland Street (dream catchers on the the PA - nice touch!) and further down a raggy delegation of Hare Krishnas had a nice groove going on outside of Marks & Spensers.

Newcastle-upon-Tyne - The Toon - business very much as usual. I didn't see any Morris Dancers, Folk Singers (though I did sing The Leg of the Mallard to the Civic Centre ducks) or any other evidence of WAV-type ersatz volkishness. I did see a lot of happy Geordies though, of all colours and ethnicities, and students, and freshers; and no indication of anyone losing their culture nor yet of society suffering as a result.

Let's just consider that again shall we?

"GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (see this week's WEEKLY WALKABOUT in the BS section), including fair-trade - via the UN, the nations within the UN, and local/county councils within nations.

And he has the neck to say he's not racist. WAV - you're a disgrace to humanity.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Sorry Pip (makes me think of Dickens); yes, Volgadon, "GLOBAL REGULATIONISM" (see this week's WEEKLY WALKABOUT in the BS section), including fair-trade - via the UN, the nations within the UN, and local/county councils within nations.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 03:43 PM

Oh, a collection of bickering nations, each with their own self-interest at stake?
"And who's going to do the regulating, WAV? Not a human being surely, given that human competitiveness is the problem. So, here's my suggestion* - how about we create a race of pan-dimensional intergalactic all-powerful ultra-mega super robot-droids whose sole purpose is the policing of humanity least we ever get out of hand? That would be a sure way to keep that competition fair, to make sure no one stepped out of line or ever acted in least bit human again for fear of being zapped into nothingness with a ZX-4000 Super-Zarg Disintegrational Disrupterositter Beam" (IB)

...the UN."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM

..."Jerusalem" which was just sung at the Twickenham charity rugby game, goes down to B below middle-C in the "Hymns Ancient and Modern"/"English Hymnal" version; hence, a tenor English flute player must transpose to a key other than D...and I think F is best..?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Sorry, wrong again. I repeat, the correct response to your questioners - and that's 'correct' purely in terms of Mudcat etiquette - would be "This is a music thread, but I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about my weird and uninteresting political views on the thread I've just started below the line." Either that or ignore the question and post something about music instead (I'd say you're halfway there).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

"Oh my gawd -- not again!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder the aussies sent him back!" (Eric)...no, definitely of my own free will.

"By regultionism I mean accepting that humans will always be competitive, and having stong regulations to make that competition as fair as possible - with safety nets" (me, above)...
"And who's going to do the regulating, WAV? Not a human being surely, given that human competitiveness is the problem. So, here's my suggestion* - how about we create a race of pan-dimensional intergalactic all-powerful ultra-mega super robot-droids whose sole purpose is the policing of humanity least we ever get out of hand? That would be a sure way to keep that competition fair, to make sure no one stepped out of line or ever acted in least bit human again for fear of being zapped into nothingness with a ZX-4000 Super-Zarg Disintegrational Disrupterositter Beam" (IB)...the UN.

And to a-bit-harsh Pip: we do get back to instruments now and again - check our Weelittledrummer, e.g.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

whatever, you do - don't steal anybody's nose flute who seems to have a heavy cold. Not even in the name of the Queen.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

Maybe that is the answer to the british Empire.
No instrument or culture of your own so why not go out and steal someone elses?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM

would a union jack on a nose flute settle the matter at this stage?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 04:14 AM

It's those Whinging Poms you've got to watch out for...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM

Well, okay, but I don't want any robots or pointy-eared Vulcans living next door to me!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

By regultionism I mean accepting that humans will always be competitive, and having stong regulations to make that competition as fair as possible - with safety nets

And who's going to do the regulating, WAV? Not a human being surely, given that human competitiveness is the problem. So, here's my suggestion* - how about we create a race of pan-dimensional intergalactic all-powerful ultra-mega super robot-droids whose sole purpose is the policing of humanity least we ever get out of hand? That would be a sure way to keep that competition fair, to make sure no one stepped out of line or ever acted in least bit human again for fear of being zapped into nothingness with a ZX-4000 Super-Zarg Disintegrational Disrupterositter Beam.

Well - makes about as much sense as the drivel you spout, WAV - for all your swimming medals, eco-tourism, degrees, cycling proficiency certificates, merit awards and whatever fucking chufty badges you think qualifies you to evacuate your bowels on subjects you know absolutely nothing about.   

Meanwhile, for some real Traditional English Pop Music of the highest order, we're setting in for a night of ROXY MUSIC on BBC4.

* Admittedly this idea is derived, in part, from the plot of The Day the Earth Stood Still - but that's as much a part of my Cultural Heritage and Own Good Culture as anything else; those dark November nights we'd go Cob-a-Coaling, up the ladder, down the wall, guising round the dirty back lanes and no matter how well we were doing we'd always be back home in time for Star Trek...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

Oh my gawd -- not again!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder the aussies sent him back!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

WAV, what sort of regulations, what sort of safety nets. DETAILS, please.

"And I mean nationalism WITHOUT imperialism and WITH eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger UN"

You must have repeated that nigh on one hundred times. DEFINE nationalism, please.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

To Pip, Ralphie, etc. - this is surely a case of damned if I do/damned if I don't answer all manner of questions.

No, it's a case of damned if you insist on going on at great length about your weird and uninteresting political views ON A MUSIC THREAD. The correct response to your questioners - and that's 'correct' purely in terms of Mudcat etiquette - would be "This is a music thread, but I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about my weird and uninteresting political views on the thread I've just started below the line."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

To Pip, Ralphie, etc. - this is surely a case of damned if I do/damned if I don't answer all manner of questions.
E.g:

And what position are you in to advocate anything?" (IB)..."4 techinical certificates in manufacturing; a BA in Humanities, majoring in athropology; about 40 countries on a shoestring, etc....which led me to question all the exaggerated deregulation/laissez faire of the 90s onward, and promote REGULATIONISM in financial markets, immigration/emigration, club-football, etc. Yes - REGULATIONISM - a word suddenly in the headlines...and, of all the ISMS, the best way forward for humanity, along with the kind of nationalism I've defined on Mudcat and here.
But, if you just can't listen to me, here's William Shakespeare, from Measure for Measure: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast." (me)

"Please explain in greater detail what you mean by regulationism. Redefine nationalism, how you see it, please.
As someone with a degree, you oght to know that debate is only possible when terms have been defined." (Volgadon)...

By regultionism I mean accepting that humans will always be competitive, and having stong regulations to make that competition as fair as possible - with safety nets (from here).

And I mean nationalism WITHOUT imperialism and WITH eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger UN (also from here).