Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:01 PM

"Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?" I think that was General William Booth who founded the Salvation Army. That's what the Sally Army says anyway, and they wouldn't be fibbing. Of course he might have been quoting Luther or Wesley.

Champagne Charlie is said to have been the tune in question. With a rewritten set of words.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:03 PM

"Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"
Well, He just picked up Amazing Grace, in my book :-)

Michael, I picked Hitler just cos he seems to be everybody's favorite villain. So he's convenient. I actually prefer Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:11 PM

Yea, verily, robinia!

The comment has been credited to Martin Luther, John Wesley, and a number of other religious leaders who wrote hymns and put them to melodies well known to most people of their time. When some pathologically pious folk levied criticism that such "popular songs and bawdy ditties" were "unsuitable" for religious music, Luther, Wesley, or whoever it was, is reputed to have responded, "Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:05 PM

Sorry, that should have been political demagogues.

Good God, 'demographic politicians'? I really should preview before posting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:01 PM

Regarding the Hitler analogy (favored by demographic politicians, lawyers, and other sorts), would you refuse to drive on the Autobahn for moral reasons?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

I like Murray's suggestion that we hear from someone who is a bit of an expert on Newton and the slave trade.

However, that the broader issue is whether it matters what kind of brute Newton was (or was not). I'm hearing most folks say it doesn't matter, as long as either 1) it's a good song or 2)he turned into a good guy later. I respect that.

I suspect that Newton didn't turn into much of a good guy until late in life, which is always the easiest time to do so. Do whatever it takes to make your money (Newton invested money in the slave trade long after he quit slaving) and then after you've secured a comfy nest egg start doing getting all moral about stuff, but never to the extent that your conscience tells you actually to relinquish any of your naughtily acquired gain. Best of both worlds, wealthy and feeling clean.

Sigh, . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:32 PM

Olney Hymns is on line:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns.txt for the plain text version, which has a few typing errors; the pdf version is recommended, see under: Olney

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: robinia
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:22 PM

Or to expand a quote from one of Ivan Doig's novels: "Good ideas (and good tunes) ain't got no pappies."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

For anyone interested in the hymn itself:

The original "Olney Hymns" (by William Cowper and John Newton), published in 1779, several printings and editions, was reproduced in facsimile, first released in 1979, by the Cowper and Newton Museum.
Arranged in three books by Newton, are the many hymns by him and William Cowper. American editions began in the 1780s.
Genie posted Newton's original words to Hymn 41 Book 2 (first words Amazing Grace,) in thread 6791, 13 Sept 02: Hymn 41 Amazing Grace

The DT version put's together Newton's first three verses with three others (by Walker?, dropping Newton's last three; in any case it is not the original.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: robinia
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:17 PM

re the hypothetical "lovely little tune" of Hitler. not only would I sing the thing if it truly WERE lovely -- I'm struck by how quickly "right-thinkers" forget Hitler's stance on things that they themselves very much approve of: youth hosteling, Volkswagon, anti-smoking laws . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:40 PM

Steve:

Your reaction to Newton -- completely understandable in its association with brutality -- is nevertheless personal and is not an attribute of the song.

I do think you should not sing the song, because of the extreme discomfort it imposes on you.

However, I feel the song --any song-- MUST be judged on its merits, its import and its use as a vehicle. This particular song does not carry any message in it of those things that are so detestable, and the chances are god (IMHO) that at the time he wrote it, Newton was not being his detestable self, but was rising above that past, whether he stayed there or not.

On that basis, I should say "Yes", if it can be done well.


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM

Newton commanded three voyages, not two, and nowhere in his "Thoughts on The African Slave Trade" does he claim that he lost only six slaves.

It is beyond belief that he could have sailed from the West Coast of Africa with a cargo of 250 slaves (which he did on his second voyage) and lost only six slaves.

It is, I suppose, possible that his final voyage with only 87 slaves could have been completed with zero mortality.

I think we need input on this thread from someone who has actually studied the original source material.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

I have "Amazing Grace," sung by the Black group of Elder Gray and the Polaski [TN] Prayer Society, on a cd titled "John Work, III, Recording Black Culture," which Camsco probably has. An Amazing rendition in the leader and response tradition, with development of its own melody.

The 'Anon.' suggestion is ridiculous; an example of the reverse bigotism infecting apologists who would bury the past. Would you cut out Newton's name from "Olney Hymns," 1779, and all the succeeding hymnals that carry his words?

"New Britain," appeared in "Virginia Harmony," 1831, James P. Carrell and David S. Clayton (Winchester, VA).
Hmmm, were either of these composers or their families slave-holders? Would you then ban the melody as well? Let's have a good old Savonarolan book-burnin.'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:25 PM

It's pretty fuzzy in my memory now (I saw the telecast some years ago), but if you can get a copy of the Bill Moyers feature on "Amazing Grace," as I recall, Moyers had a fair amount of background on Newton. If your local public library is sizable and has a good audio/video section, they might have it to check out. I know a DVD of the show has been released.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:13 PM

If we're worried about whether we should sing it, should we mind St. Paul? He was a murderer, I was reminded today.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:23 AM

Jack- The words have been set--successfully--to a number of different tunes, several of which are still current in rural America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:44 AM

Hitler was actually not bad as a painter, in a rather boardroomish style based on the Romanticism of a hundred years before. WAY better than, say, Thomas Kinkade or Winston Churchill.

There certainly WAS widespread recognition in the late 18th century that slavery was immoral. At least, there was in Britain (I have read a lot of the Scottish sources). It was an issue that the working classes could identify with, since they were being fucked over by successive goverments they had no more say in than a slave did. In America it was doubtless different, since the poor colonists were doing exactly what the Jamjaweed of the Sudan are currently doing only on a vastly larger scale, and no way could they have faced an issue elsewhere that might have turned round and confronted them with the moral implications of their own actions.

A few years ago very few people could have named the author of the words. (It seems nobody here knows the composer of the tune, either).   Maybe the best thing that could be done with this song is to reassign the credit back to Anon.

What other words is "New Britain" used for? What's *its* story? - the tune is now far better known than the words, and the words would have been left in oblivion without it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

Tidbit for drifting thread: Niggling is a way of fishing. Instead of jigging (oddly, also a word with dubious racial overtones) the lure or bait one merely makes almost imperceptible movements. Hence the phrase "a niggling thought" picks up that connotation of tininess, a thought somewhere between the conscious and the subconscious mind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:10 PM

Here is my main source, and it includes Newton Biography, Cowper and Newton Museum sources.

Keeping in mind that, apart from ship's logs, the ultimate source for information on Newton's life is from his own works, I've looked for etexts of "An Authentic Narrative", but have so far come up dry.   He is one of the more intriguing characters of an intriguing time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

Sorry, but I'm on a roll, and the more I read the more I suspect some of the info provided above is nonsense (Newton only captained two voyages, only six slaves ever died on his ships. Sources please.

"Newton later recalled that routinely a quarter of his captives, sometimes as many as half, would not survive the trip across the Atlantic. But there were vast profits to be made from the sale of those who did survive." This is also from a pro-Newton site.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Besides, according to he Newton International Center Newton was a captain for six years. Also, his "conversion" was in 1748 but he did not give up seafaring until 1755. Did he only do two trips during that time? Again, I'll keep looking, but some of you are apparently very knowledgable about Newton and will hopefully share some sources with an honest seeker.

Newton Center link is here. As a very pro-Newton outfit, I'm surprised they don't have the info that Newton's defenders have provided above. http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:oW_eBCeB4XgJ:www.johnnewtoncenter.org/john_newton.htm+%22john+newton%22+slaves+died+commanded&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,steve baughman, esq.
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:46 PM

"He commanded only two sailings, both after he had begun his religious studies--on the first, only six slaves died(and this was a time when even non-slave sailings often lost passengers and crew to disease), on the second, none, neither slaves nor crew, were lost."

Well, maybe (probably?) I'm an idiot, but the above info has not appeared in the dozen or so Newton sites I've looked at. So since McGrath of Harlow apparently knows exactly where this ubiquitous info is, s/he might kindly direct me to it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:50 AM

"I've found no such info on the internet" - you must have been rather cursory in your looking than, Steve.

One thing about the tune is, I gather, that it is extremely easy to play on the pipes (insofar as anything is easy to play on the pipes).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:23 AM

Excellent info, Ted. If that's all true, I'd probably not dismiss the case, but I'd surely consider granting probation.

I've found no such info on the internet, could you share your source with me?

thx,
sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:06 AM

And, incidentally, the famous melody, which, after all, is what the pipers play, is "New Britain", and was added to the verses in the United States, long after Newton's death.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:04 AM

A quick scan examination of the information on the internet reveals that Rev. Newton became involved in the slave trade after he was pressed into service and traded, at sea, to a slaver. During his "employ" in Africa, he was essentially held in bondage himself--his "escape" being as a mate on a slaving ship. He commanded only two sailings, both after he had begun his religious studies--on the first, only six slaves died(and this was a time when even non-slave sailings often lost passengers and crew to disease), on the second, none, neither slaves nor crew, were lost.   

Though he experienced a religious epiphany, his religious development came from much study, in both secular and theological areas, over many years. He studied with the leading clerics of his day, including John Wesley--his writings were evangelical--he wrote extensively, using the baseness and depravity of his early life as as examples in the conversion of others.

Given the frankness of his writings, and his long service, more than forty years, as priest, curate, and rector, and as one of the leading evangelists of his day, and his later work as one of the leading voices for abolition, the idea that he wasn't "fully repentent" isn't born out by the evidence.

We move for dismissal.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:42 AM

Yeah, the first time I heard anyone go all "PC" over the word "niggardly," it surprised the heck out of me. Perfectly good word, meaning "stingy" or "miserly," and the word's etymology identifies it as of Scandinavian origin. No racial connections or implications whatsoever!

Celtaddict, it occurred to me that your son could say exactly the same thing about the songs I sing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:04 AM

When my older son was about ten, he asked me, "Why do you always sing about things you disapprove of?" I asked what he meant, and he pointed out, with a certain justice (as I really enjoy sea music as well as old ballads), "Everything you sing is about drinking, fighting, womanizing, or killing whales."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:01 AM

Thread drift alert:
Don Firth says:
"Here's something to consider:   No person is the villain in his own movie.
I won't go through the murky convolutions of Adolf Hitler's beliefs, but . . . .
Hitler thought he was doing the right thing."
This is pretty much what Will Smith said recently, that people tend to act for what they see as the best (even if what they see as 'best' is themselves having extreme power or riches, no matter how); he said in effect he doubted even Hitler got up in the morning and said, "Let's see, what can I do that is really evil?" The idea of evil for evil's sake seems to be a standard of cartoons and B movies but does not seem to figure in real life much. But a flock of folks who either did not bother to read or did not bother to think rose up shouting 'Will Smith is a Nazi lover.' Weird reactive populace. (This is related to the fact that niger seed, black thistle seed, is now marketed as 'nyjer' seed so ignorant people are not offended; rather like having folks demand your job if not your head for using the reasonable old word 'niggardly' which means stingy.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:43 PM

"Don't say anything stupid now, Don."

Hey, c'mon, man! That's a helluva burden to lay on a guy!

####

One of the first books of folk songs I ever bought back in 1952 was Best Loved American Folk Songs (Folk Song U. S. A.), by John and Alan Lomax, copyright 1947, third edition. One of the songs in it was "Amazing Grace." It wasn't until some years later that I actually heard the song sung. I can't remember by who, but it was before Judy Collins' recorded it sometime in the early 1970s. Her rendition of it seem to be the first domino to be tipped over, because you suddenly started hearing it everywhere. A Scottish pipe band recorded it, then another, and another. It began being played during ceremonies following the death of national leaders, major personalities, police officers killed in the line of duty. . . .

In 1990, Bill Moyers did a PBS special on "Amazing Grace" (CLICKY; available on DVD), and that's where I heard about John Newton and how the song came about.

"Amazing Grace," usually played by a pipe band, has become a standard piece of ceremonial music commemorating almost any event in which sadness or grief may be a component.

Someone dies, a pipe band plays "Amazing Grace."

The kid next door's pet hamster dies, and as he's burying it in a shoebox out in the back yard, a pipe band marches in and plays "Amazing Grace."

You get a hangnail. "Amazing Grace."

You spill your beer. Lookout! Here they come again. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:36 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, sigh, about time to move this thread to a new, somewhat lower classification?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:40 PM

Okay, as some of you have failed to notice, I'm not really taking a position here. I started this thread by askimg if I was being silly with my reaction two nights ago to someone singing Amazing Grace at a session, and I asked this community what other people think of this. I have benefited from this chat and will now say that whatever Don Firth says, I agree with, (don't say anything stupid now, Don.)

I still think Newton was a bad boy, a really really bad boy, murderer and all that, (yeah, chaining folks up in the hull of your ships knowing full well that some will die on the journey is murder) and he was probably not fully repentant, (though I may have too few facts to claim to know for sure about his regrets.) That view of Newton will perhaps forever get in the way of ME PERSONALLY enjoying his music. Or maybe I'll get over it some day. For many others (apparently many many others,) it's not an issue.

In the meantime, I really hope not to hear Amazing Grace in the near future, or even in the intermediate future.

Thanks for being mostly civil in responding to my inquiry.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:21 PM

The "Hitler" analogy is not merely hypothetical, it is totally irrelevant in relation to John Newton. A more relevant analogy might be with the man I mentioned in an earlier post - Oscar Schindler. A man who was far from being flawless, living in a desperate time, a mixture of altruism and self-seeking, and a saviour for a lot of people. I don't think many people would have problems of principle in singing a song he might have written,

Hitler was painter, but a pretty poor one. If he had been a great artist would we feel we had a duty to destroy his painting? An interesting question to toy with, but not one we need to try to settle.

After all if Hitler had been a great artist he would not have been Hitler, and who know how his life would have unfolded. At a much lower level of evildoing it is notable that the fact that the painter Caravaggio appears to have been a murderer has not led to his paintings being shunned.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:09 PM

Wilberforce, who Mr. Baughman may have less disdain for, was a child in Rev. Newton's church, and Newton encouraged him to pursue his work against slavery--Wilberforce later called on Newton to make public his remorse on his involvement in the slave trade. It is wrong for Mr. Baughman to assume that Newton bore no private regrets til his "public" statements--most people, even now, hold progressive beliefs privately but refrain from public statements and social activism--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:59 PM

What? (quack!) Me? (quack!) Ducking the question? (quack!) Who? (quack!) Me?

Okay, here it is:   If I thought it was a "REALLY COOL" piece of music, yes, I would still be able to enjoy, play, and share it. But not necessarily without hesitation. IF my audiences found it offensive, then I would probably back off. Since, in my capacity as a performer, I am supposed to be entertaining my audiences, if they took offense at the piece, then I would be 1) failing to entertain them, and 2) shooting myself in the foot by continuing to perform it because I may loose those audiences. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't enjoy it myself.

I would have to treat it like other songs that I know some people find offensive. I wouldn't sing raunchy songs at a church social or drinking songs at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Okay, now how does that square with my considering the man who called the radio station (objecting to the Beethoven piano concerto as "Nazi music" because he had heard that it was one of Hitler's favorite pieces of music) a brainless, hypersensitive twit?

Beethoven was often surly and rude, he was frequently behind in his rent, and sometimes he didn't bathe that often. But he was dead before Hitler was born. Save for the fact that he was a musical genius, he hardly to blame for the actions and attitudes of those in the distant future who liked his music. If Hitler liked the music of Beethoven, Wagner, and Strauss, well, bully for Hitler! It shows, at least, that he had a touch of musical taste (unless he liked them, not for their music, but merely because they were German). But to blame those composers for what Hitler did is just plain stupid! And wanting to deprive other listeners of enjoying Beethoven's music just because he had issues with it is just a little fascistic in and of itself!

Okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:02 PM

Yes, I've often been struck by the philosophical parallels between abolitionism and National Socialism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:59 PM

"As you said, Murray, this [Hitler hypo] is a purely hypothetical case. "Wildly hypothetical." And when we start positing such hypothetical situations, the discussion can go to ridiculous extremes and become pointless." Don Firth.

Don, Don, Don. Thou duckest the question. You are on record as saying that the politics and character of the writer is totally irrelevant to whether you will enjoy, play and share a piece of music(or do I misunderstand you?.)   If that's what you say, then a hypothetical question for you is fully appropriate. And to avoid you ducking further, let me clarify, Yes, Hitler wrote a piece of music that you think is REALLY COOL. And the question is, Are you still able without hesitation to enjoy, play and share that piece of music????

Again, if you say no, you've got some explaining to do. If you say yes, you're being consistent, (as long as you really mean it.)

Sorry if I'm being harsh with you, but you're making some great points in this thread and I want to see you follow your thoughts thru, not duck out when the hypo gets tough. (It's the lawyer in me. Can't be helped).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:36 PM

Rev. Newton was regarded as one of the important and influential abolitionists in his time.   His writings were brutally honest about the sins and transgressions in his life, and probably contribute to the misunderstanding of him that set this discussion off in the first place. The thing to know, however, is that his written accounting of his life in the slave trade( was of great assistance to William Wilberforce, who fought in Parliment first to abolish the slave trade, and then to abolish slavery itself in the British Empire. Rev. John Newton Biography

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

To the point: "less than noble men..." is ALL of us. And that is exactly the message of the song. No one is perfect and we continue on because of the concept of grace. We can forgive one another. We can love the person and not his actions. "Where sin abounds, there does grace much more abound."

As for the tune? In matters of taste and beauty there is no argument.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

One of the reasons I said the song is overplayed is because of the media.Whenever a funeral or memorial service makes the evening news you KNOW that someone is going to perform "Amazing Grace". It's as if the media thinks it's the only song that exists. You know there had to be several other songs or hymns performed at any service - but what always gets the air time? Amazing Grace. I've warned my wife that if it's sung at my funeral I'll come back and haunt her.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

I never really felt that I was a wretch, but authorities differ.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:01 PM

Those of you who have read me at Mudcat know JotSC to be a pretty conservative fellow. Yet I own and still play hundreds of albums from the so-called 'folk scare' period. I'm in philosophical disagreement with many songs I play and enjoy (and I guess that means I disagree with the songwriter also). Generally I enjoy songs that have a more universal message rather than a specific one. But more than enjoying them, I take something from them that expands my way of thinking.

Frankly I don't care who wrote Amazing Grace, or what he was. I get chills listening to Judy Collins perform an a capella rendition of the song. I know where her heart is.

R. Strauss & Wagner were not performed in Israel for decades, but they now have been. If the Israel Philharmonic can play their music, I guess its alright for me to listen to it (not that I had let them influence me anyway).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM

This is a fascinating discussion, and even the 'rants' and sarcasm have been sufficiently modulated to allow it to continue without recourse to name-calling and other degeneration. Some excellent food for thought; repeatedly I find myself agreeing with at least part of what most posters have said. Thank you, Mudcatters!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:17 PM

actually, I have to agree as well with jacqui c and Don.

thing is, I am irrationally prejudiced in favour of Steve Baughman just because he is such a bloody good guitarist ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM

What jacqui.c said!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

You will join me in singing and dancing the Fuhrer's favourite tune:"Der Guten Tag Hop-Clop"! All right, key of E?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

It seems to me that most people will have an emotional reaction to any particular piece of music, whoever the composer might be. Same with paintings and sculpture. If we find out later that the creator of the piece was in some way flawed that really doesn't prevent us from feeling pleasure at experiencing their work. If our singing that song gives pleasure to others down the years who is to say that Newton's legacy was not good.

I can see where you are coming from Steve and can understand how you might feel. I think, though, that it is necessary to divorce the circumstances of the man's life from the beauty of the words of the song, which has comforted many over the years.

I had a work colleague in the 80's who would not listen to a certain singer because he was aware that the performer was homosexual. That guy denied himself a lot of good music simply because he did not like the singer's sexual orientation. That just seemed crazy to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:59 PM

I'm with Bonzo on this one - shame he wasn't thrown overboard before he got to write it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: peregrina
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:50 PM

So how did Amazing Grace achieve the kind of popularity that results in the risk of it becoming too-often heard?

There is some nice information about that in the notes to the Smithsonian Folkways CD "Jean Ritchie and Doc Watson at Folk City".

Paraphrasing...
the notes say that when Jean and Doc sang the song together in 1963 it was still little known.
Now I quote: "the version that is seminal to the current popularity of this song was that recorded Newport Folk Festival of 1963. The singers were Jean and Doc with Clint Howard, Fred Price, and Clarence Ashley. Issued on Vanguard records, their version was soon covered by..... [others]... that it was their setting of the old song that led to its popularity is easy enough to prove becuase they used the first verse as a chorus, something that had not been done before. The popular recordings that followed also used the first verse as a chorus and all show their clear and unmistakeable evidences that Doc, Jean, Clint, Fred and Tom [ie Clarence Ashley, his other name] were carefully heard by those who took up this song of faith and made it a household possession of all Americans."--Notes by Joe Wilson...

If you are tired of the tune of Amazing Grace, check out the slow air 'Mrs Jamieson's Favourite' which can be found at thesession.org

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

So, if we are to ignore good writing because of the author's occupation should we also refuse to praise the works of known criminals, soldiers, prostitutes, lawyers?