BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:53 PM

Couldn't agree more olddude but fact is that the American's "holy of holy's" - your Constitution - has brought about a situation where those "wack jobs", as you call them, are guaranteed and have damned sight more effective weapons than sharp sticks, and there is absolutely nothing that over 235.5 million US Electors will do about altering or amending the rights enshrined in that document - you've had how many of these incidents now? Over how many years? And absolutely nothing has been done to ensure it will not happen again. That is the case and that will continue to be the case - because no-one must touch the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

The wack jobs that say they need
Those weapons for fear of
government should not own a sharp stick.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

just face the facts.
its like i said about a hundred posts ago.
life and death is like that over in America, because that's the way they want it.

if they wanted it different, they have access to a free press and democratic process. if enough people actually cared, things would change.

they don't give a shit about the present situation. its their business. go there at your peril.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM

Gravity waves IMPOSSIBLE
until you prove it
now LIGO scientists get the Nobel prize/

GUN Regulation will save lives IMPOSSIBLE?
To say impossible is an ignorant POV.

What do you hope to prove Mrzzy? Guns are not to blame but stampedes are?

I am thinking the note found in Poddard's room with numbers are declination and wind adjustment numbers.

Victims do not recount seeing tracer bullets but Poddard had them in the room. http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/thousands-mourn-slain-officer-las-vegas-probe-50319208

Some posts here seem to not know the difference between lies fake news propaganda and NRA jargon.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:51 AM

Of course you can try to start somewhere and the measures mentioned in passing by olddude would be a good start - how that goes about changing the perceived notion that one has to be capable of defending oneself against your own government and the mistrust and belief that your own government is going to attack you is going to be a "North face of the Eiger" type climb in a country riven by schisms, some of whom date back to it's conception.

So while you may make a start, realise the scale and magnitude of the problem (And that is only taking registered firearms into account) and resign yourselves to the fact that this sort of atrocity will be repeated in the future time and time again as if ever there was one - this is most definitely a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

Amen, PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM

Shot or trampled...???

dead is dead....

Nobody would have been killed or injured at that massacre if a finger had stayed off a trigger....

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

I had actually been wondering:

How many of the dead were shot, rather than died because there was a shooting going on (shrapnel, trampling, etc)?

How many of the injured were shot, rather than injured by shrapnel or from themselves or others trying to get away from the shooter?

I had a talk with an EMT gun enthusiast friend of mine, and he said you can't aim with a bumper stock, so we thought maybe of the injured (500ish) 150 shot 50 shrapnel 300 other injuries, and of the dead, higher proportion shot, maybe 45. Total guess. What do other gun or EMT experts say?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM

You have to start somewhere and they can do buybacks and get a bunch of them out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:11 AM

Why is there a perceived need for the type of guns that olddude objects to? Two reasons, the wording of your second amendment and the rather mystifying truth that it would appear that Americans just simply do not trust their Government (If the Army and National Guard units have automatic or semi-automatic weapons, then I too must have those types of weapons to allow me to defend myself).

Make it harder to buy and own a gun? - Impossible in a country that already has more "licenced/registered" guns than people (112.2 guns for every 100 people in the country). The number of unlicenced and unregistered firearms will be staggering and among those you will have all the "war souvenirs" dating back to WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:44 PM

I have seen the NRA programming on cable that includes how to legally shoot someone and what you need to know legally.

I have spoken to managers at Giant food for a year regarding not carrying a single science magazine but displaying ten different GUN magazines. TO NO AVAIL btw there were lots of religious magazines.
This is a vendor's choice not a commercial choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:02 PM

"A fully loaded auto, 308 with a military sniper scope.. Bumper stock"
What make of car is this and is it street legal? ;^)

sorry I should not be trite, there is nothin funny about masa shootings.
What is considered a mass shooting is four or more victims.

The elephant in the room are venues that could equal the kill numbers of Los Vegas. College games, NFL, Baseball, Central Park, Inauguration crowd etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:40 PM

I'd say one of the main problems in the last decade has been the plethora of Cable channel documentaries and reality soaps making semi auto machine rifles look as sexy and desirable as they can...

I'm as guilty as anyone for enjoying my weekly fix of "Sons of Guns" for all the adrenaline rush speaker rattling gunfire and explosions...

But companies like Red Jacket made military style semi autos to appeal to the pockets of 'regular guys' who wanted the latest and best TV endorsed status symbol guns to show off to their drinking buddies,
and make as much recreational mayhem as possible blasting melons and water buckets etc
out in the back yards and woods....

Loud fast assault rifles to shoot up the cardboard cut outs of bin laden with a truck full of 6 pack beers...

Fun.. but stupidly socially irresponsible, and potentially deadly in the wrong hands

Like getting the loudest Marshall amp and Les Paul to rock out the neighbourhood from your garage...

or a mad customised harley, or muscle car..

Big brash toys for macho knucleheads.... ??

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:37 PM

But what I expect is a slew of new laws as always that only affect me and other deer hunters and do nothing to plug loopholes or make anyone safer.. That's what ny does

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:34 PM

Every weapon i saw when they panned his roomwas a hhigh end weapon of war that would workwwell forany army . Yet he can legally buy them modify them and get on no one's radar... Fix the fucking laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:21 PM

A full auto 308 with a military sniper scope.. Bumper stock.. Ugh

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:18 PM

Stu is absolutely correct, sport and hunting is not the issue, whytthe hell do we allow weapons of war.. Some sports men will tell me they use their hunting. My response, get the proper rifle for hunting that is not the one any true hunter wants and illegal to hunt with in many states. We just don't need them. We have common sense laws on what is a street legal car. You can't have nitrous oxide tanks on the street. So why not weapons.. If you competition shoot, you use a bolt action rifle, same for hunting.. That shooter had one of the newer versions of a stoner rifle modified for full auto replacation.. Why... For war not sport

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM

Commentary from a couple of our local "patriots" here. I'm not making these up or satirizing.

1. The liberal media keeps passing off all the casualties as shooting victims, when in fact many of them were victims of the stampede.

2. Look at what happened in England and Australia; they banned guns shooting deaths skyrocketed.

Just when I feel like I've heard it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:27 PM

From my perspective John Oliver won this gun debate

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

*Thank you, I'm not OK, I had a horrible toothache last night.

(*an example of miscommuniction) ":^/ Its swollen but better now.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM

That is a point, but I didn't make it. OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM

Mrzzy never said he thought gun abuse was OK. You said that there were many gun nuts that accept the trade off between gun freedom and collateral gun damage. (it was OK with them), as I understood it, but not in those words.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 02:28 PM

After the Dunblane primary school shooting politicians had been driven by a need to show they were doing something but their actions did nothing to stop the criminal use of guns. “It never, never has any effect. The criminal underworld in England, the drug dealers … have all got guns, but they are illegal guns,” Criminals do not have a problem with the legislation, they simply ignore it.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 12:46 PM

Wait, what, Donuel? You said a while back "Some Americans think its OK like Mrrzy said." - when did I ever, anywhere, on any thread, say anything about any part of this being OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:35 AM

"I have no idea where I'd get a gun from (even a legal one)"

A fairly close relative was a legal shotgun owner.
He kept them responsibly in a proper secure locked cabinet.
One day he decided to saw the barrel of one of his guns to make it easier and more comfortable to blow his heart and lungs out.

At the time it would have seemed bad form to ask the family if I could have his guns...

Don't know what eventually happened to them....???


So, even passing rigorous and restrictive UK gun ownership tests and checks, can't account for an individuals later states of mind and crisis....

Fortunately he took his problems out on himself, and not anyone else...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

It won't, but making it harder to get a gun is a start. I have no idea where I'd get a gun from (even a legal one), and it'd be a nightmare here in the UK if anyone could stroll into Tesco's and buy an AK47. Way too many dickheads about.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:24 AM

medicine will do something for those it can help.
You Are Correct it will not save everyone

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

If the statistics are correct and there are more guns in circulation than there are people then "actual gun control" is not going to do anything. The gun statistics are for registered weapons I take it? Those intending to do harm with a gun will find the means to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM

IF hearts pouring out, if hopes and prayers diminished the death and suffering of innocents
or saved even one person - pray away.
But they do not.
Actual legislation will help the numbers of massacres slide down.

A slippery slope is good to enable to help the number of wounded and killed slide downhill.

Like the best medicine in the world it will not save everyone from disease, but it helps the ones it helps.

Let it be
Let it help

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:01 AM

"The humane response to the tragedy visited upon Las Vegas is not legislation but consolation, for both victims and survivors."

If someone supports the ownership of these weapons, maintains their right to have them and use them then they are, in small apart, responsible for the deaths of all people killed in this manner; that is the situation you perpetuate and maintain. That is what collective responsibility is about, that is what upholding a constitutional amendment that is anachronistic and downright dangerous means.

If I were a person being offered such consolation, I'd tell the person crying their crocodile tears to act with an ounce of integrity and then I'd tell them to fuck off.

"the big difference is simply the number of firearms available."

The big difference is the culture of violence that the USA is mired in.

As I say above, these things happen because a large number of people think the right to own a gun (outside of sport or hunting) is more important than the lives of their fellow citizens and their lives is a price worth paying. That is the plain and honest truth if it. If it wasn't, then the guns would be in bins and that would be it.

Like olddude says, it's another nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:26 AM

actual gun control

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:41 AM

"Unless something substantial is done."

Don't keep it to yourself Donuel - please tell all.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:52 PM

BWL was the first to foresee this tragedy having more transformative impact upon Congress than all previous school shootings.
Dan has expressed integrity I wish all Congressmen would acquire.
Bruce is more defensive than a suspect perp.
I was coincidentally closer to this latest last shooter than I initially knew. I was in Chicago when Poddard rented a room to scout the Lololpalooza rock concert and of course I have been to Fenway Park like most folks when another concert was being looked at by Poddard..

Also by coincidental factors I was interviewed by the FBI regarding the unibomber case and as I have said before I walked into an FBI office in Buffalo to tell them how hijackings would shake this nation to the core and how extraordinary measures were needed and then I told them what they were. Since this was several years prior to 9-11 I was of course dismissed as a harmless loon.

To thine own self be true. Well I have been even when it is embarrassing. However it doesn't take a psychic or a coincidental interloper to predict someone today is out to break the record of 59 and shoot for 60 to 100 deaths from the next mass shooting...

Unless something substantial is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

Two arseholes arguing about gun control


Take yer pick....


Though one does seem to be reciting from exactly the same set script as BB is in this thread...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:09 PM

Dave agree completely

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:36 PM

And our lawmakers who never seen a weapon ever don't ask people who know them. They pass half ass do no good rules that are full of holes. How about this machine gun laws, any weapon with an initial design that includes automatic fire. Had they done that, no ar15 no ak 47 but no some semi auto is ok in weapon design for also full auto and easy to convert even without a bump

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM

If you want to shoot a machine gun go to a class lll range under a certified instructor pay the fee and shoot away. Or you could have close ties with a sheriff swat team and go out with them on a training site.. Or spend 30k and get the proper license.. There are people who just hack the system and us sportsmen get the flack after

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:01 PM

Dan, I have no issue at all with guns for hunting. In fact I have often said that hunting is a much more moral way of getting meat than farming animals. Unfortunately we are not talking guns for hunting here. When did you ever use an automatic or semi-automatic to hunt? Why does anyone need to own 47 (or whatever number it was) high power firearms? We are talking about the nutcases here. Limit the access to such firearms. Screen people who want them. Make them take safety and psychological tests every year. But something needs to be done.

If Beardedbruce is correct and the number of murders per firearm is the same across the pond then surely reducing the number of firearms will reduce the number of murders. There are flaws in Bruce's stats but he does make a valid point and it does demonstrate that the big difference is simply the number of firearms available.

I just hope that something does happen before another tragedy occurs.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:58 PM

.. No thanks.. the UK may have it's problems and deficiencies..
but at least our local right-wing bonehead thugs don't tend to habitually carry guns out to bars and pubs... ??


[hit and miss today if emojis are posting...]

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:52 PM

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/10/03/jimmy-kimmels-tears-arent-helping-las-vegas-victims-decreasing-gun-violence-ka



Well, punky, you could join the vast number of citizens of other countries that move to the USA to have the advantages of OUR laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

Some body will next come up with a flame thrower that is not a flame thrower because it has no back pack tanks... Ugh then all of us hunter's bitch because everyone wants tougher laws to restrict sportsmen.. Well if this add on circumventing the system shit with no hunting or sports purposes would stop maybe people would not scream enough and I don't blame them for lumping it all together

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM

Yeah - looks like the sensible wing of the NRA are having to face up to reality, no matter how grudgingly...



btw.. beardybruce - when have I ever said the only use of guns is for murder...?????

I've stated frankly in previous mudcat gun threads that I am a UK lefty liberal who actually wants to own and shoot guns;
but accept the law of the land and my own limited finances
do not enable my responsible pursuit of such a hobby...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:36 PM

Also, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I owned guns for hunting and target and defense my entire 65 years. None of them ever came to life to threaten myself or anyone else.. Sorry but you are wrong. That being said having a machine gun that is not called a machine gun does give us gun owners pause as to what the hell someone is up to. It ain't no hunting rifle nor target and your home defense doesn't need a machine gun unless you are a drug dealer or something.. So yeah, ban the bumper things and do it quickly

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM

"Anti-gun activists would like you to think that gun violence is a growing problem in the United States as alpha males flock to gun shows to buy weapons. But this is completely untrue. Gun violence has decreased almost equally with the increase in gun ownership. States with higher gun ownership don’t have more murders. Not to mention, since 1993, the gun homicide rate has fallen by nearly 50 percent, despite recent increases in some urban areas.

This decrease in gun violence is a statistic gun control activists often bury because it doesn’t fit their narrative. Regardless of facts, they continue to spread misinformation, resulting in many people thinking we’re awash in gun violence. A Pew Research survey in 2013 found “56% of Americans believe gun crime is higher than 20 years ago and only 12% think it is lower.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:30 PM

Nra just released a statement they support additional laws on bump stocks. They are on a roll one right decision,,

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:16 PM

"all guns are so obviously potential death inflictors"

As are ALL motor vehicles, and all medications, and all knives, and all stones. Even golf clubs and baseball bats have been know to kill- so the potential is certainly there as well

And of course those evils such as gasoline ( used in napalm) and nuclear power ( radiation and bombs!)

And more people die each year due to H2O than anything else.


You have not established that the ONLY purpose of guns is murder- there are JUSTIFIED reasons for shooting people (stopping criminals), uses such as hunting ( for food or safety) target shooting-(an Olympic sport, unlike guitar playing), collecting and historical research.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 01:58 PM

If guns are unfairly maligned blameless inanimate objects, innocent of all killings..
Then maybe the blame should be traced back to the gun manufacturers, sellers, and propagandists who enable and facilitate gun abusers to accomplish all their lethal handiwork...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM

Exactly. "Guns don't kill people [nonsense] = People kill people [true]"

Repeat a thousand times, blur nonsense with truth in catch phrases and people are indoctrinated more than they suspect. My observations are backed up by neuroscience today.

Did you know the data on Mudcat is backed up in the Library of Congress?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM

"guns don't kill people..."

.. what.. unless they are used as bludgeons...???


The only guns that can't kill people are guns that don't exist, were never manufactured in the first place, or decommissioned and irreparably destroyed...

Otherwise, all guns are so obviously potential death inflictors..

Bullets might not be as deadly if you had to throw them at folks you want to kill.... ??

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:49 AM

Backwoodsman's links are greater than all the worldly whoop dedoos to the power of 10.

I noticed the number of times gun advocates repeated NRA jargon without even knowing they were doing it. That is a tip off of a form of brainwashing especially when the jargon makes no sense or logic.

You know like the jargon robomatic pointed out; "guns don't
kill people..."