Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 20 Jul 21 - 04:08 PM Thanks, Martin, I know of all the Troy prints but, when I wrote above, didn't have time to check my full records. These are in the various appendices of my 2006 thesis - The Printed Ballad in Ireland: A guide to the popular printing of songs in Ireland 1760-1920. which can be downloaded: https://aran.library.nuigalway.ie/handle/10379/5020 Most important for this discussion is the Database and the lists of printers given in the section under Trade. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: MartinNail Date: 18 Jul 21 - 06:24 AM John -- there seem to be eight items in the John Davis White collection on the TCD website emanating from John Troy. Each has a differently worded imprint, but four them locate him in Waterford, as follows: A lamentation, for the Pandora. Which was lost, last week off Youghal John, Troy. Printer, and wood; Engraver The peddigree of Alias McCarthy, the Irish fugitive, who was exiled after the reign of King James John Troy Printer Stephen Street, waterford The lovely Irish maid John Troy. Printer 40 Stephen-St. Waterford The Indians' war John Troy Printer Waterford The young sick lover John, Troy. Printer, and Wood Engraver; A new song on the arrest of Thomas F. Meagher, Esq John Troy's Printing Office Stephen-Street Waterford. The breeze JOHN TROY. Printer and Brass Engraver A new hunting song John Troy's Printing Office |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 17 Jul 21 - 06:25 PM My knowledge at 16th January 2000 was much less than it is now. The print by Troy was collected by John Davis White who was based in Cashel, Co Tipperary. His collection is concentrated on the east and south so Waterford is a lot more likely than Limerick and I have an address 40 Stephen Street - however, there is no sign of Troy in Waterford in street directories of around the time White was collecting so confirmation will need local inquiry - mind you, while there is a Stephen Street in Waterford, there seems not to be one in Limerick - still, a check is needed. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Georgiansilver Date: 17 Jul 21 - 03:24 PM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrickfergus_(song) |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: MartinNail Date: 17 Jul 21 - 01:39 PM Many years ago (16th January 2000), John Moulden posted the English stanzas of "The young sick lover" as printed by Haly of Cork, and referred to "the one printed by Troy of Limerick - differences are probable and will be revealing." The good news is that the Troy printing is now online on the TCD website: https://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/concern/works/v405sb51b. Other sources suggest that Troy was based in Waterford not Limerick. TCD gives Troy's dates of activity as 1847-1860, so that is some years later than the 1830 date for the Haly printing. The Troy text has the same overall macaronic structure as the Haly one, but there are many differences (especially in the "phonetic Irish" stanzas). This suggests that one is not copy of the other, and that either both are based on some older oral (or written?) version, or that Troy is based on an oral recollection of Haly. The first two lines of the second stanza are: I wish I had you in Carrick, fergus, Ne faud O naut ud, Bolla quiene, Not a Ballygrand in sight, and I love the 'Carrick, fergus' -- it sounds like a vocative. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Occi Date: 05 Sep 17 - 05:27 AM I'm looking for the second half of the following verse O, ta fhios ag einne nach ag ol a bhimse Do dearbhis feinig i gcuinne na tigh Seanna mna an tsaol seo do craithig go leir me At cruinniu spre suas da glean inning. My spelling may not be great and I find the modern method of writing dreadful. I was taught using the gothic form, so apologies for that. Occi |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Caroline Date: 06 Feb 17 - 02:51 PM Thanks - I think she isn't so much attached to Van Morrison's specific lyrics as to the melody and the song in general, and I think I can leave out claiming to be drunk and seldom sober without making her unhappy... But I'll send her the verses I plan to sing ahead of time. I have to say, I watched the Celtic Woman version on YouTube and found it slightly absurd to be watching this harpist in a ball gown sweetly singing about being drunk today and seldom sober.... So I have tentatively got Nynia's verses 1, 2, 3, and 5 as my choice, pondering how/whether to deal with Bridget Vesey as I like the rest of that verse very much for the occasion. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Thompson Date: 06 Feb 17 - 05:08 AM Noticed a short thread on this in an Irish forum; apparently there's a little place called Ballygran or Ballyagran, near Carrickfergus. Doesn't appear on Google maps, but then neither do a lot of little places and old names, including my own area. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Thompson Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM If we're taking the first two lines to have the meaning they normally would in the English usage of Ireland, they would be to say: "I wish that I were [living] in Carrickfergus, other than the nights, which I would spend in Ballygrand". Where Ballygrand might be is an open question; place names change, and places that were once prominent disappear into half-forgotten parish names; this happened especially during the Famine. Songs also appear from localities where they have been locally famous for generations or centuries, and people poke at them with an air of distaste and say "No scholar has ever heard of you…" |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Lighter Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:30 PM Sounds like good advice to me. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: meself Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:24 PM Caroline - There is no harm in patching together various verses that you would like to sing; it's what lots of people do. The thing to consider though is what your friend wants - if she is expecting a particular set of lyrics (e.g., the ones Van M. uses), then those are probably the ones you would want to use, under the circumstances. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Caroline Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:44 PM WOW, just wandered through this thread because a friend wants me to sing Carrickfergus at her husband's funeral! I would like it to make some sense and not be silly in any way; I like the Carrickfergus/Ballygrant/Kilmeny connection and I like various lyrics posted above. Would the best thing be to sew together a collection of verses I think will work at a funeral? I don't want to just regurgitate Van Morrison's version if I can make something more suitable. If anyone is still here - thanks! |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Billy Finn Date: 04 Jun 14 - 04:58 AM Just listened to Sean Cheast O Cathain`s version of Port na bPucai, courtesy of Peter Laban, and it is exactly the same as Sean O Riada`s version. So, Sean Cheaist played it before O Riada and the latter`s version is a reworking of the island original. Sean O Riada always said the original came from the Blasket islands and Seamus Heaney`s poem is just as relevant as ever. Probably, Carrickfergus was similar and one of Sean O Riada`s many achievements was to present these airs to the general public who weren`t familiar with them. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Billy Finn Date: 31 May 14 - 02:46 PM Just listened to the new Sean O Riada album of old piano and harpsichord tunes. Marvellous. The notes with it say that the melody for Do Bhi Bean Uasal were compsed by O Riada, based on an old version of Carrickfergus. Sean also plays a fascinmating version of Port na bPucai from 1971, which goes into jazzm with a menacing bass line. All the sources say that Sean Cheaist`s Blasket island version of Port na bPucai is different, so, it is most probable that Sean O Riada either added to the original or reworked it. Worth listening to. Not bad to have a traditional tune start with Sean O Riada. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Amos Date: 14 May 14 - 01:50 AM The Loudon Wainwright version, for interest and contrast, can be found here on YouTube. ANd let me add my voice to those who celebrate this remarkable, articulate, persistent thread! |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Seonaidh MacGriogair Date: 13 May 14 - 07:07 AM Interesting thread. My band have just recorded the song. We sang it at a gig the other night. At the end of the gig a guy from Islay told us that on the island there is a tradition that the song was written by one of the many Ulster men who came over to work in the marble quarry there. I could believe that. Just a continuation of an exchange of peoples and culture between Ulster and the Western Isles that has taken place for centuries. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 08 Apr 14 - 09:38 PM "Try searching Google Earth for Ballygrand, Ballygran, Ballygrat - you won't find any of them. These are made-up names." I just did. There's a Ballygran estate, not far from Kilkenny. I don't think it's of much relevance, however. The insistence that it's Ballygrant on Islay is kind of putting me off even considering it. Anything is possible, but I think the point that "Ballygrand" didn't enter into the equation until the Clancys' version is quite valid. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 15 Mar 14 - 08:31 AM 'he' is obviously referring to O'Riada, who wrote or 're-worked' more than a few melodies to be 'let out into the tradition'. Port na bPucai among them (although the present form goes back to an air played by the Blasket fiddlers). There used to be a reference on Peadar O Riada's website to the knowing smiles he exchanged with his father whenever they heard Carrickfergus. There was also a reference to the royalties that could have been had for each time the tune was played on the radio (I am heavily paraphrasing from memory, the website changed years ago I believe). All in all enough to suspect Seán O Riada may have had some hand in the air of Carrickfergus as we know it today. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,michaelr Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:42 PM the question of Sean O Riada`s input into the melody of Carrickfergus is all the more interesting when we consider that Terry Moylan thinks he may have composed the melody for Port na bPucai... By "he" do you mean O Riada or Moylan? |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 14 Mar 14 - 03:45 PM the question of Sean O Riada`s input into the melody of Carrickfergus is all the more interesting when we consider that Terry Moylan thinks he may have composed the melody for Port na bPucai, long considered an old Blasket island piece. Also, there is the mystery about the origins of the melody for Aisling Gheal which didn`t really emerge until O Riada was heard playing it on piano and harpsichord in the late 1960`s, although the words date back a bit. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:17 PM I'm sorry we have no further opportunity to clarify the part played in the modern survival of this song by Peter O'Toole and Richard Harris. Suffice it to say that both were great actors and great characters with a breadth of wit, intellect and artistry that we are unlikely to see again; there'll be havoc in Heaven! |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Dec 13 - 09:14 PM I never understood why they didn't call in Peter to play Dumbledore when Richard Harris died. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Lighter Date: 15 Dec 13 - 07:31 PM Folk singing at its best, goddammit! Thanks for the link, JM. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,JM Date: 15 Dec 13 - 06:46 PM Good night Peter. Peter O'Toole and Richard Harris sing Carrickfergus |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 23 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM Debating the origins of Carrickfergus is like trying to identify the original recipe for a stew after every visitor and passerby in the past two centuries has thrown ingredients into the pot. Give it up, boys, and just enjoy the lovely flavors! ;-) |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 20 Sep 13 - 07:56 AM Guest - if you would identify yourself I might be able to assess your right to assume your superiority of thought and knowledge. Baile Cuain is not non existent, it is suggested as the nearest plausible Irish rendering of an obscure phonetic 'balle coun' which is given in the ballad sheet of the Young Sick Lover. However, I concede that there is no place with that name - unless you allow further anglicisation, say to 'Ballycoan' (given on the OS maps as 'Ballycowan' which is an even nearer phonetic) and which does exist, near Lisburn in Co Antrim, but at a fair distance from Carrickfergus. I was not attempting to join the debate about location but rather to suggest what Peter O'Toole or another previous singer might have heard that turned into Ballygrine in Dominic Behan's mouth. This too is conjecture but I'd rather that than stick with the Clancy's arbitrary and nonsensical 'Only for nights in Ballygrand'. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:32 PM Attempting to connect the nonexistent "Ballygrand/Ballygrat/Ballygrind" with an equally nonexistent "Baile Cuain" is an exercise in groundless conjecture. Who can be certain that even The Young Sick Lover is an original source? O'Toole, Behan, Clancys, whatever, 'Carrickfergus' is already a mishmash of booze-tinged memories, inventions, borrowings and interpretations that - in its most common form today - leaves as many questions as answers. Trying to manufacture an 'authentic' version out of disparate bits and pieces recalled by an actor is clearly impossible. The best that can be done with 'Carrickfergus' is to make it into a plausible story that satisfies the singer and engages the listener. Do it any way that pleases you, and don't get hung up on dubious 'authenticity.' |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 18 Sep 13 - 03:42 PM The conjecture about 'Ballygrand' (2 posts above) is only tenable if one forgets that the name was probably provided by the Clancys who couldn't make out what Dominic Behan was singing. His first lines were - "I wish I was in Carrickfergus, In Elphin, Aoidtrim or Ballygrind," Of which the Clancys give the second half as 'Only for nights in Ballygrand". This has led to column inches of conjecture. However, the only reliable placename (given in the Young Sick Lover) that corresponds in any way to Behan's Ballygrind is "Baile Cuain". So why not stick with that? It is plausible that it could be misheard, perhaps at a remove of several transmissions, as "Ballygrind". Baile Cuain, since it means Quiet Town could well be just the place for Chinese Whispers. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,David Ash Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:14 PM Interesting that Carrickfergus is featured in the US television series Boardwalk Empire (series 1, episode 5, "Nights in Ballygran") in a scene set in the 1920s, and again just this week in the BBC's Peaky Blinders, set in 1919. So a song unknown before 1960 is mysteriously making its way backwards in time. If we want to know its origins, all we have to do is wait until box-set TV drama takes us back to when Fineen MacCarthy composed it after the Battle of Callann or some such. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 10 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM Try searching Google Earth for Ballygrand, Ballygran, Ballygrat - you won't find any of them. These are made-up names. Try Ballygrant - you'll find it easily. It's on Islay, a whisky-producing island in Scotland. This real Ballygrant is across "the deepest ocean" only 72 miles from Carrickfergus. "The water is wide" there, and turbulent; you "cannot swim over." It would take "a handsome boatman" to ferry someone from Carrickfergus to Ballygrant - yet Irish laborers commonly made that crossing in the 19th century to seek jobs in Scotland. Ballygrant has a pit where "marble stones as black as ink" have been quarried for centuries. The Ballygrant mines have also produced silver, and the area is known to have gold seams as well. The burial ground nearest Ballygrant is Kilmeny, one kilometer away. Is it just coincidence that the real Carrickfergus and Ballygrant, separated by wide water and deep ocean, a quarry for marble "black as ink," silver and gold, and a burial ground that sounds something like Kilkenny, all occur with a 75 mile radius? |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Harmonium Hero Date: 06 Sep 13 - 03:42 PM Try googling Harris & O'Toole Carrickfergus YouTube. It won't add much to the discussion, but it's interesting. Nice fiddle backing; my impression is that he was playing and they happened along and joined in. I think I may be safe in assuming drink had been taken. JK |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Sep 13 - 12:25 PM refresh |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Chris Rust Date: 04 Sep 13 - 09:42 AM I've just worked through this thread and thanks to all the wonderful effort that has been put in. My own interest is to find a version of the song that I feel OK about singing, "true to something" might be a simple way to put it without moving too far from the "current" version that people recognise. I'd like to summarise what I've found to be useful or interesting in this marathon discussion. First there is little disagreement about the narrator, who has lived a sad life in the shadow of a lost love, maybe somebody they could not marry because of social differences and is now dying, possibly of alcoholic excess. It's not unusual that this person would like to travel in time and place to either where they were happy or where their lover is buried. "The Young Sick Lover" seems an obvious parent which is true to all that I think there are two versions that appeal to me and both would make sense. First I was struck by California Will's contribution on 28 Jun 2007. He didn't seem to get any response, possibly because his style of writing was less respectful and more dogmatic than most others here. However the point that the statutes of Kilkenny prohibited marriage between two social groups, and poetically the idea that such statutes were "recorded" on the local stone all fits together nicely and makes sense of the rest of that verse as Will explains, even if the true history of the song is different. However the idea that "she" is dead and recorded on a black marble headstone is also very appealing and probably easier for an audience to grasp. Either way the distance between Kilkenny and Carrickfergus is not a problem but the idea that the woman is buried in Kilmeny works fine. However nobody seems to have picked up Roy McLean's (20 Aug 09) reference to Ballygrat or Ballygrant as a small place near Carickfergus but over the lough, known to his Grandmother. That fits also with the alternative of a small peaceful village or harbour near Carrickfergus (Agus ne fadde, o en nat shoon balle coun). That was certainly what I was assuming from hearing the song and before I read any of this. I have always imagined the handsome boatman carrying the singer across a river or lough. There's no problem with a story linking Ulster with the Western Isles of Scotland, the two have been very closely linked since the Stone Age partly because sea travel was greatly preferable to land travel before good roads were built. But equally the words available could apply to somebody in exile, in Britain or further away, needing a way to cross the sea to Carrickfergus, or a boatman to take you over the Lough to Ballygrat works fine. Going to Carrickfergus to be in Ballygrat/Ballygrant works fine for me (like travelling to Rio to be on Ipanema Beach :o) I'm not so comfortable with the Kilmeny version because the song is about Carrickfergus which is on the way there, in modern terms it's like singing about New York because you want to be in Chicago So I have three songs that I might choose to sing but the third (C below) is not so satisfying: A. The singer was prevented, by the Kilkenny statutes, from marrying a girl he met in Ballygrat, he dreams of seeing her before he dies. B. The singer's lover is buried in Kilmeny, he dreams of going to to Carrickfergus where he can take a boat to be buried with her C. Going back to the English text in the Young Sick Lover, somebody in Kilkenny seems to think that the singer is going to support this woman but actually it's too late, he is dying, and probably penniless. So all I have to do now is make the smallest changes I can to ensure that the song is consistent to one of these versions so I can feel comfortable singing it. I don't delude myself that it will be historically correct or true to any early version. Best wishes from Sheffield |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Felipa Date: 25 Jul 13 - 03:30 AM much catching up to do on this superthread tattie bogle wrote 'Dominic's middle verse is not the same as the one in the DT. When I've a bit more time, I'll post the full set, if they are not already there.' are the words here already or can tattie vogle get back to them? what was the former version of 'only for nights in Ballygrand@ which people say first appears with Clancys + Makem 1964? |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:43 PM From: GUEST,Curmudgeon Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:44 AM most of us here would rather have facts than specious pilings of non-fact upon non-fact. _________________________________________________________________ Before anyone tries looking for "facts," consider this interesting entry from five years ago. You'll find familiar lines from 'Carrickfergus' mixed in with lines from other familiar songs. It's a perfect example of the traditional song stewpot from which only an optimist could extract a carrot of 'fact' - much less the "origins" of anything! _________________________________________________________________ From: GUEST,kevin Prior Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM There is a ballad sheet in the Bodleian Library (accessed online), the words of which seem to be largely an amalgam of the songs which we know as Carrickfergus and Peggy Gordon. With some additional general purpose verses. It is dated as between 1780 and 1830. I cannot make out all the words, but those whch I can are below. Bodleian Library allegro Catalogue of Ballads Copies: Harding B 25(894 I'm often drunk And Seldom Sober Printed and sold by B. Walker near the Duke's Palace, Norwich MANY cold winters nights I've travelled, Until my locks were wet with dew, And don't you think I am to blame, For changing old love for new. Chorus I'm often drunk and seldom sober I am a rover in every degree When I'm drunking I'm often thinking How shall I gain my love's company. The seas are deep and I cannot wade them Neither have I wings to fly I wish I had some little boat To carry over my love and I. I leaned my back against an oak Thinking it had been some trusty tree At first it bent and then it broke And so my lover proved to me. In London City ????? ????? The streets are paved with marble stones And my love she ??? ??? ?????? As ever trod on London ground I wish I was in Dublin city As far as e'er my eye could see Or else across the briny ocean Where no false love can follow me. If love is handsome and love is pretty And love its charming when first its new So as love grows older it grows bolder But fades away like the morning dew I laid my head on a cask of brandy It was my fancy I declare For when I'm drinking I'm always thinking How I shall gain my loves company There is two nags in my fathers stable They prick their ears when they hear the hounds And my true love is as clever a young women As ever trod on England's ground You silly sportsmen leave off your courting I'll say no more till I have drank For when I'm dead it will be all over I hope my friends will bury me |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:00 PM Curmudgeon says: "most of us here would rather have facts than specious pilings of non-fact upon non-fact." Definitely curmudgeonly, that - for "specious pilings of non-fact upon non-fact" down the years could describe most traditional music. Unless a song has a known original author (and copyright), any "fact" may turn out to be "specious." The 'Carrickfergus' sung today is a stewpot stocked with ingredients from many and mostly unknown sources. As commonly sung, they make little sense, and invite much speculation. Neither O'Toole nor Behan nor Makem could vouch for any of it (other than Behan's acknowledged authorship of the middle verse). Groping for 'facts' in this stewpot is rather futile; any way you want to sing 'Carrickfergus,' it's likely "specious." All we can do is what traditional singers have done for eons: gratefully take what we have from the past, and try to make a good story of it. ;-) |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 17 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM O'Toole heard it from a man called, he told his agent, who told me, Niall Stack. That this was in Kerry is attested in the same way and by Behan's name for it - The Kerry Boatman. How he came to be there, given the detail in his autobiography, is moot but there are school holidays! Finally, relatively little of Kerry was a Gaeltacht in the 1940s and, even in those regions, many people sing songs in English; as they do today. I'm afraid that nothing that Curmudgeon says persuades me, save that he might take up his own suggestion of asking O'Toole himself. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Lighter Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM Fascinating. As I wrote earlier, "If Clancy-Makem are the ultimate source of 'Ballygrant,' they seem to have had a deeper insight into the geography of the area than one might expect." Which is certainly not impossible. Occam's Razor is of limited help in cases like this. It isn't foolproof: it's simply a guideline. It works best in the natural sciences where the possibilities in any given situation are comparatively limited. And it's valuable in law because verdicts must be reached (and sometimes they're wrong despite Occam). In folklore, where anything can change at any moment under the influence of God knows what, even in the mind if the same informant, the Razor loses much of its edge. It becomes not a question of "why look?" but of what the preponderance of the known evidence indicates. Curmudgeon's info on O'Toole very valuably expands that evidence. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Curmudgeon Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:44 AM In reply to 13 April Guest - who I suspect is not unrelated to erstwhile contributor Jack Maloney - because most of us here would rather have facts than specious pilings of non-fact upon non-fact. It seems clearly established by those who know (not me!) that both "only for nights" and "Ballygrand" are 1960s inventions of the Clancy Brothers who either could not understand or did not care what was being sung on one of Dominic Behan's recordings. Neither term occurs in any version before the Clancys', and so all this stuff about a lover sailing to Ballygrant in Islay and black marble at nearby Kilmeny is entirely irrelevant to the origins of a song which dates from the 1830s at the latest. To repeat, neither "only for nights" nor "Ballygrand" appear in any known version of Carrickfergus prior to the Clancy Brothers 1964 album "The First Hurrah!" As earlier contributors have pointed out, Occam's razor is a wonderful tool. The song says there is black marble at Kilkenny, and Kilkenny is famous for its black marble (which is in fact limestone, but so what). So why look for somewhere else that has black marble and is not Kilkenny but has a similar name - particularly if you end up with an insignificant place on a small island in a different country? Incidentally and probably finally, has anyone pursued the O'Toole angle any further? He is the somewhat improbable link between a Gaelic/English macaronic broadsheet published in Cork around 1830 and the two versions of Carrickfergus recorded by Dominic Behan in the 1960s. O'Toole says he heard/learned it in Kerry in 1946 (i.e. when he was 13 or 14), and Behan says Kerry is where O'Toole spent his childhood. But the Wikipedia article on O'Toole, based on his autobiography, says that he was born in 1932 in either Co. Galway or Leeds, Yorkshire (he has birth certificates from both, with different dates!) and by age 1 was definitely in the North of England where he spent the next 5 years travelling around local racecourses with his father who was an itinerant bookmaker. After that the chronology is a bit confused but he spent 7 or 8 years at a Catholic SECONDARY (i.e. age 11+) school in Leeds. So where is there room for a Kerry childhood that includes him at age 13/14? Not saying it's not possible; just saying it looks a bit difficult to fit in. And another rather relevant thing from the Wikipedia article is that O'Toole said, apparently in a 2006 interview on US National Public Radio, that before he became a student at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in 1952 he had been rejected by the prestigious Abbey Theatre, Dublin "because he couldn't speak Irish". Without the Erse, what would a 14 year old O'Toole have made of someone singing - to who knows what tune - the 1830s macaronic but primarily Gaelic broadsheet "The Young Sick Lover"? Of course, O'Toole may have heard a watered down and anglicised version of the broadsheet - but who would have sung that in 1946 in the Gaeltacht? |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:22 AM What would the world be without conjecture and guesses? No mythology, no rumour and gossip, no wagering on the ponies. Why spoil the fun, John? ;-) |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:49 PM If you read the whole of this thread, you'll see that most of the words communicated to Dominic Behan by Peter O'Toole mirror those of the macaronic 'Do bhí bean uasal' or ;Young sick lover' referred to and quoted above. There is no evidence that there ever were two songs from which Carrickfergus was contructed. Instead we have a fragment remembered by a actor who heard it in childhood which has been added to and adapted by several hands, minds, and imaginations since then. Careful reading and research are the only tools that will help anyone who wants to disentangle the strands - in this they have my blessing; however, conjecture and guesses, unless founded on fact and evidence, are of no blessed use whatsoever. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,Mah0ney Date: 01 Feb 13 - 06:51 AM Latest I heard is that it is two old irish songs put together which is why the words don't make sense. Behan did add a new verse. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Tattie Bogle Date: 27 Aug 12 - 08:08 PM Oops, 224, or now 226! |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Tattie Bogle Date: 27 Aug 12 - 08:06 PM Sorry, I missed that, John, but thanks. (234 posts on this thread, and I did read a good few before posting!) |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: meself Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM See: Date: 06 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 26 Aug 12 - 09:09 AM I did ask Peter O'Toole, his reply, transmitted though his agent, is above. |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: Tattie Bogle Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM Going right back to John Moulden's posts in 2000 re Dominic Behan's version, I have dug out my copy of Dominic's book, "Ireland Sings" (copyright 1965). As JM says, Dominic called it "The Kerry Boatman", and these are his notes at the end of the book. "Before my friend, Peter O'Toole, rode a camel in the desert, he sang this song for me at The Royal Shakespeare Theatre, in Stratford-on-Avon. It had a beginning and an end. I gave it the middle it has now, and I hope, Peter a cara, you approve." Dominic's middle verse is not the same as the one in the DT. When I've a bit more time, I'll post the full set, if they are not already there. AFAIK Peter O'Toole is still alive - he only announced his retirement from acting in July this year - could someone not ask him where HE got it from? |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:49 AM For the geographically challenged: there is no Ballygrant 'forninst' Carrickfergus. But there is a Ballygrant across the Irish Sea from Carrickfergus. Easy to get hung up on a word if you don't look at the big picture. ;-) |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: mayomick Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:56 AM Molly O'Connor, she lived just forninst me, And tender lines to her I wrote, If you dare say one hard word again her, I'll tread on the tail of your coat........ from Mush Mush Formenst or forminst appears in Shakespeare I'm told . It's still used in parts of the north and west of Ireland. In the Ulster-Scots dictionary they have : Fornenst ……opposite, directly in front of |
Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus From: GUEST Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:05 AM Maybe it's "for nights" that is being misunderstood. I had always assumed he was singing "forninst to Ballygran". I can't find a reference but I promise you I have heard 'forninst' used to mean 'next to'. |
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