BS: Matter and Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Pied Piper
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:15 AM

After a rocky start this thread has settled down nicely and is generating more light than heat. Thank you for all your constructive contributions.
I always know when were getting down to the nitty gritty when Amos starts to calling me names.
Carol C's relativist red herring is very useful when defending belief in ideas for which there is no testable evidence.
I am not a gross materialist despite being portrayed as this particular Aunt Sally.
There are many things that I believe in that I cannot "prove" such as the existence of other minds, but my belief is not a matter of faith but empirically testable in every interaction with other people I have, besides as Wittgenstein showed use of language is predicated on belief in others.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:30 AM

thanks, Amos, for the kind words.

There was some wise man who said "Every thing has a spirit."
And the student said "Even a rock?"
"Even a rock."
"What kind of spirit could a rock have?"
"It has a rock's spirit."

I don't know what that means, but it sounds exactly right.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:27 AM

well, all I can say is that we are simply not using 'faith' and 'belief' the same way. My 'belief' that my statement is correct as it stands is really not the same sort of thing as belief IN a phenomenon.

I believe that I can't grab a handful of moonbeams also...and I guess I shouldn't believe it's impossible until all possible attempts have been made?

the obvious truth of the statement "no-one has yet done this to (my) satisfaction" does not INCREASE the probability that it is possible.

If we are free to just use logic and the scientific method on the experiences we choose and rely on other criteria when we don't like the implications of science, where are we? I'm sure that if there WAS good scientific basis for paranormal phenomena, science would be touted highly..*wry grin*...it's only when science can't give the desired results that some say, "oh, that falls outside the purview of science. We experience that in ways that, by their nature can't be measured."

Well, as I have said about 27 times on such subjects, I'd love to be proved wrong! If someone finds a gene for telepathy, precognition and recognition of auras, I want a transplant!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:59 PM

your metaphor is good..but it IS a metaphor. Presumably, every person could be shown the different views at different magnifications, and thus see exactly what the others saw. This can even be photographed and shown to others who didn't get to look thru the microscope. This is really not possible with paranormal phenomena...whether religious, psychic, or otherwise

You actually have no way of knowing this for sure. All you can know at this point is that no-one has yet done this to your satisfaction. A certain amount of belief or faith is required your part to make the above statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:08 PM

The problem with the material space-time framework is that it is an average of illusion. Not _de_lusion. Illusion in the sense that one's own created reality may seem illusory until enough agreement about it makes it real.

This makes it hard to get to the bottom of, hard to disentangle from, and scary to challenge. It kind of explodes in your face if you try to disagree with it too hard, making it a very uncomfortable zone to explore.

Little Hawk is right, and Clint's analogy is loverly. "More like rainbows than like rocks". But the truth is, so are rocks. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:55 PM

Thank you, Little Hawk.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM

Very nicely put, Clint.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:45 PM

Wolfgang's monism says matter and spirit are the same, LH's says spirit & matter are the same, mine says spirit and matter (or matter and spirit) are parts of the same thing. Are we sure that's three different opinions?

I think a lot of the confusion here is semantic. For instance, in English "rainbow" is a noun, but it's "really" a verb. The color stripes are static, but the drops that form them are constantly moving. A person standing beside you will see the rainbow in a slightly different place. You can't say it's in any particular place, just within a range of places, and you can't really say it's a "thing." Still, you can take a photograph of it, so it "exists." But not the same way a rock exists.

Spiritual things are more like rainbows than rocks.

If you get what I mean.

clint

It DOES make a difference what your definition of "is" is.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:32 PM

You don't have to take everything personally, TBPL. For all I know you may be as spiritually advanced as Gandhi or even more so. What I meant was: you have a choice who to hang out with in life, right? Depending on what you want to know about. If you want to know about hockey, hang out with hockey players. If you want to know about drinking, go to the bars. If you want to know about crocheting, find people who do it. If you want to know about spiritual philosophy, find people who have put quite a bit of time and practice into it and have some understanding of it.

I did not mean..."find people who are more spiritually advanced than you are, you poor, primitive, knuckle-dragging soul"... :-)

Whenever I run across someone whom I have a strong feeling is more spiritually advanced (or more knowledgable) than me I pay pretty close attention.

And I do run across people like that every now and then. I judge their merits by their actions, not their words.

It's like learning guitar...you look for someone who is better at it than you. Simple.

And I am not advising you to get "saved". No siree. I am advising you to seek out whatever it is that inspires you and get the most out of it that you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:31 PM

Iknow you, Carol...and I am confident you are not "f*cked up in the head."

that being said..."...several different people can all be right about the different things they see in a microscope if they're all looking at the same thing under different magnifications."

your metaphor is good..but it IS a metaphor. Presumably, every person could be shown the different views at different magnifications, and thus see exactly what the others saw. This can even be photographed and shown to others who didn't get to look thru the microscope.
This is really not possible with paranormal phenomena...whether religious, psychic, or otherwise....these are subjective and not available for any sort of independant verification. It is not a matter of truth...I know you and many other folks who I believe to be totally honest about what they experience....but what causes those experiences is pure conjecture. I simply don't conjecture much, and don't worry about it until someone else does conjecture. Then my sceptical genes take over and off we go!

I will admit that the universe others 'see' sure is a lot more interesting than mine, but I seem to be stuck here..*smile*...I wonder if all those years in Kansas caused my receptors to atrophy?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:39 PM

Was that you as the 11 Aug 04 - 09:11 PM Guest, TBPL?

I've been thoroughly examined for just about everything over the last decade or so. Nothing life-threatening, and nothing that explains, in medical terms, the phenomenon I described.

And I've had a thorough psychological and psychiatric evaluation as well. I have been officially declared sane and not f*cked up in the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST, cookieless:TBPL
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM

that was me again ...

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:26 PM

The only thing I could suggest is that you spend some time around some more spiritually advanced people

Diplomacy's not your strong suit, eh? ;o)

Man, I have expended more years of my life to this than most sane people would. I am a very spiritual person. I even have an alter in my garden where I burn herbs. The fumes go up my nose and excite memories, one bit of my brain produces chemicals that make another bit release other chemicals that make a third bit happy.

It's one thing to be happy in one's own universe, but people who try to indoctrinate others just make me want to beat them up (again, Mr. Brain). And the energy (kinetic) expended in pursuit of woo-woo would be better spent on doing good rather than photographing fairies. Just my opinion, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST, TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:13 PM

Wow -- my cookie got crumbled ... is someone trying to tell me something? ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:12 PM

TBPL - I am delighted if a scientific explanation is provided for any phenomenon. I have always liked and appreciated the scientific approach. Regarding spiritual perceptions, I don't know how I could verify them for you, because they are an inner experience, not an outer phenomenon. The only thing I could suggest is that you spend some time around some more spiritually advanced people, but how would you decide which people those were? Danged if I know. I don't expect you to go around searching for something you don't believe in.

I became convinced about spiritual things simply by being around various people who demonstrated a pretty profound level of understanding and who were exemplary people...and I read a lot of good material that changed my ideas about life. I don't belong to any specific religion...I see much good in most of them, provided they are understood and applied properly. I see much good in science as well, and do not discount it at all. It is possible to be highly spiritual AND highly scientific, and the best spiritual teachers combine both understandings very harmoniously.

The spiritual teacher I have been most inspired by was educated as a professional engineer, and worked in that profession for many years. This did not interfere in the least with his appreciation for spiritual values, but accompanied it most effectively. That's fairly unusual among engineers, I would assume, having known some others. Most of them are anything but spiritually inclined, in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:11 PM

I've never met anyone else who throws up when they are exposed to high concentrations of spiritual energy.

I'm not being facetious here, CarolC, but you should consult a physician about that. Just in case you're wrong as to its cause. We'd hate to lose you ...

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:07 PM

Since you quoted me, Bill, I guess I should reply. Here's my response to what you said about burden of proof. It's what I've already said in an earlier post:

"From my own perspective, as far as proof is concerned, I would not seek to prove anything of a spiritual nature to anyone. I see that sort of thing as a violation of the free will of another and, to my way of thinking, intrusive and counterproductive. But by the same token, I don't think it would be particularly productive for me to pretend that I experience or understand things any differently than I do."

You don't have to accept that I experience what I say I do, but I don't see why you would feel a need to try to convince me that I don't experience what I say I do, for the reasons that I state.

So?....well, they CANNOT all be right, in an absolute sense of the word 'right'.

I disagree with this premise. They can all be "right" in the way that several different people can all be right about the different things they see in a microscope if they're all looking at the same thing under different magnifications. They're all looking at essentially the same thing, but what each of them sees is entirely different than what the others see. I think that's a pretty good metaphor for how people see spiritual/physical realities differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:54 PM

"Just because you don't experience these things in a tangible sort of way doesn't mean that no one does."

(I see Wolfgang already picked that startement out to comment on..*grin*)

my comment: The burden of proof is on the assertor. If someone wants to CLAIM that they experience these things 'in a tangible way', they must show how this could happen. If they wish merely to experience them, there is nothing to prove. Those who do NOT have these experiences and are told "Oh, you just have to 'open yourself'!" may perhaps be excused for wondering how this is done.

There are SO many physical ways that strange psychic/paranormal experiences can be induced that simply assuming NON-physical ones seems to me to be a bit of wishful thinking. Some of us just have a need to believe certain things.

Those of you who read Mudcat regularly know that there are almost every combination of beliefs and non-beliefs represented among our members. Some believe in a Christian God, but not in psychic phenomena--some accept paranormal events, but are not 'religious'--some accept religion in other forms, whether 'pantheistic' or monotheistic---some hotly deny most of this, while others only hotly deny SOME of it..*grin*....others just shrug and make no committment.

So?....well, they CANNOT all be right, in an absolute sense of the word 'right'. There is an old joke about "what is too much sex?"...and the answer is "anyone who does it more than I do."
    ...the same idea can be applied to belief systems....What is 'extreme' and absurd? Why, anything which *I* don't understand or experience!
Oh, it's a can of worms, my friends! All I can do is recall Alice talking to the Red Queen:
"I can't believe that!" said Alice.

"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

I guess it's just that I'm too lazy to practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:37 PM

I am more of a pan-multi-polyist than a monist or a dualist, Wolfgang, but in general I would say that consciousness and aware will are attributes of a force which is not contain by material particles or space and in my opinion (what more could it be at this stage?) gives rise to space and particles as a result of exercising a fundamental ability to deploy aware will, rather than existing as some by product of more complex interactions of space and energy.

It is my opinion that space is the result of viewpoints, not the other way around.

But it is also very easy for life force, aware will, consciousness or whatever else you call it to fall into the patterns of space and energy and become identified with it to the point where differentiating from spacetime seems impossible.

I THINK THIS IS A PROBLEM. BUT I THINK IT IS A PROBLEM IN THE DYNAMICS OF THOUGHT, RATHER THAN A PROBLEM IN PHYSICS.

Sorry -- CAPSLOCK key got stuck. My experience is that life can bacvk out of its identification with matter, but matter cannot demonstrate any increase in determinism or activity no matter what you say to it. From that point of view I suppose I think of the two as opposite ends of a very wide spectrum.



Regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:16 PM

I don't know if your et al too includes me, TBPL, but the truth is that even amongst the people I know whose understanding of spiritual energy is similar to mine (everybody's different, so I won't say "the same"), no one experiences it even a little bit the way I do. This is not because I have any special "powers", but only because I have certain deficiencies that cause this kind of energy to get a bit blocked and I get easily overloaded. I've never met anyone else who throws up when they are exposed to high concentrations of spiritual energy. And I wish it didn't happen to me either, because it's quite unpleasant.

As far as other people's ability to percieve spiritual energy, again it's not a power. It's simply an ability. I think everyone has this ability but, for reasons of their own, many people are just not prepared to use it.

From my own perspective, as far as proof is concerned, I would not seek to prove anything of a spiritual nature to anyone. I see that sort of thing as a violation of the free will of another and, to my way of thinking, intrusive and counterproductive. But by the same token, I don't think it would be particularly productive for me to pretend that I experience or understand things any differently than I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:19 PM

You and I are both humans with the same faculties. You claim to experience things in a way most people cannot. How can we non-experiencers accept our deficiency as real if you dismiss attempts to verify validity of your powers?

I say this to Little Hawk, Two Bears et al too. You brush off pleas for proof with the same expression of not caring if we believe you or not. But I share the journey of life with you and I have been led down so many garden paths, distracted at so many snake-oil stalls and exhausted by so many wild goose chases I cannot afford to waste any more time.

And why would you not want a scientific explanation of such phenomena?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

Absolutely, LH!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

I would be willing to bet, Wolfgang, that your experience of energy is not in any way similar to mine if you are using "love" as your for instance. Because I certainly wouldn't use that one myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:06 PM

Except for Shatner, Carol! You must admit, upon serious reflection, that William Shatner's take on reality has something new to teach all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM

TBPL, I'm not trying to prove that my experience is more valid, or necessarily more real than yours. Just that it is different, and that you are not in any better position to invalidate mine than I am yours. I actually have no problem with the idea that you don't experience things or understand things the same way as me. But I also don't accept the idea that someone else's idea of reality is in any way more valid than mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:02 PM

Carol,

do you think my experiences of for instance love must exactly match yours so I know what you are talking about?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:01 PM

It's just a question of which scientific explanation, that's all. I don't regard the better explanations of spirit I've seen as being magic ones. They make perfect sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:58 PM

Conversely, if you lack the means of detecting the presence of spiritual energy, you might very well determine that it doesn't exist. But that wouldn't prove that it doesn't exist. It would only prove that you do not have the means to detect it.

Of course one cannot prove something does not exist ... that chestnut is trolled out every time we visit these claims. I'm not sure how it advances an argument that spirit is somehow physically tangible.

I think we'll all agree there is such a thing as spirit. But some are saying it exists physically, as though you could accidentally sit in it or spill it on your pants or walk around a corner and get hit by a waft of it. I'm saying I believe it's a feeling that results from the brain's reaction to external stimulii.

What I find curious is why some people feel a scientific explanation is less acceptable than a magic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM

Wolfgang, you have also vomited when placed in too close proximity to a Genesa crystal for too long? Small world.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:43 PM

Yes, I understand your form of monism, Wolfgang, and you have explained it very well. You're looking from the opposite end at the same phenomenon I am looking at. Well, I guess one of us is looking through the wrong end of the telescope! :-) You think that spirit (life) arises out of matter, and I think it's exactly the other way around. It's a bit like the old humorous question: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Guest - Are you aware that all of the great Eastern spiritual and religious philosophies include the concept of evolution in a completely integral fashion in their ideas of spirituality? So do the more enlightened forms of Western spiritual philosophy. Physical evolution is driven and accompanied BY spiritual evolution. The one is a very good reflection or counterpart of the other. If you want to confound people by bringing up evolution vs. spirit/God, you will have to argue with some Christian fundamentalists about it, because they're almost the only people around here who will disagree with you on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:32 PM

If one experiences something and another does not, does this mean that the experience is only imaginary? /Carol)

Carol, you are completely on the wrong track as far as I am concerned. I have these experiences more or less as you have. The difference is that I give other interpretations to my experiences.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:29 PM

It was a joke, Wolfgang. Hence the winking smiley face just below.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:27 PM

You only think you're in agreement with me, Wolfgang. (Carol)

I never thought I was, What I posted was : I am in complete agreement with what Carol writes which is sometimes very different from being in agreement with you. I was only pointing to the fact that we are both, and LH too, monists and not dualists. It becomes extremely clear in LH's words: Matter and spirit are not separate. Matter is an aspect of spirit and exists within spirit. You could say that it is spirit slowed down some.

Amos for instance, I'd say, is a dualist, but I may be wrong.

What amuses me is the fervour with which Little Hawk attacks a monism similar to his own in many respects except that I hold that spirit is an aspect of matter and exists within matter and not vice versa. Your many examples are very close to the Aristotelian conception of Psyche, the vital energy that distinguishes life matter from dead matter. Yes, I agree, that's how we experience it and that's why we prefer to talk in these terms about it in normal life talks. But we should not mix up how we talk about something with how it is. After more than 2000 years talking about Psyche (life spirit or whatever) the time has come to think about it differently. To think about 'spirit' as a state of matter is in my eyes the more fruitful research approach.

And as for your examples. Little Hawk, with our use of the language, it is so easy to come up with other examples: When you'd see me crying you'd come up to me saying 'what's the matter?' One example as silly as the other. Don't confound your own experiences and how you explain it to yourself or others with what really is (or may be). There are alternative possible explanations. As mostly in these discussion, I find you close your mind/brain very early against all other explanations. Your use of 'deny' when arguing with me is a prime example. 'Deny' means I say 'no' to something which I know to be true. That's completely wrong. Do me the favour and accept that I have a truly different point of view (and am not in denial) from your own for which I can argue like you for your own.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:21 PM

Guest,

Th'art lost, lassie....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:20 PM

The word 'soul' or even 'spirit' has uses, as Wolfgang notes...but it is well to be careful how you declaim that they refer to actual mechanisms that operate independently of 'us'.

Or we independently of it

Just because you don't experience these things in a tangible sort of way doesn't mean that no one does. If one experiences something and another does not, does this mean that the experience is only imaginary? Does the existance of colors as a tangible physical phenomenon become questionable because a blind person can't percieve color? If you don't experience a thing, does this mean it doesn't exist in reality?

Going back to TBPL's comment about buying a jar of "spirit" and rubbing it on like an ointment...

It would be possible to buy a jar of air. Obviously you wouldn't be able to rub it on like an ointment. In fact, you wouldn't be able to determine whether or not the jar actually contained "air" just by looking. The only way to know if the jar contained air would be to observe effects that air has on other things, or to have an instrument or other means of detecting the presence of air.

It's no different with spiritual energy. The way you know it's there is to either observe its effects on things, or to have a sensory means of detecting its presence. If you don't have a means of detecting the presence of air, would you automatically determine that it doesn't exist? Perhaps you would. Conversely, if you lack the means of detecting the presence of spiritual energy, you might very well determine that it doesn't exist. But that wouldn't prove that it doesn't exist. It would only prove that you do not have the means to detect it.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:15 PM

You forgot November.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:07 PM

Have you people ever hear of a funny thing called evolution? There is no soul, no spirit, no good, and no evil. There is only nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:57 PM

" It is quite easy for an embodied soul to come up with the idea that there is no soul, for example, but only the body."

and contriwise, it is easy for a complex body like a brain with billions of synapses, to come up with the idea of soul...and many other ideas for which there is no referent in reality! Remember Phogiston? And Ether? and "universal mind"? and "dragons, unicorns, a benevolent dictator, and pixies!"

We (whatever you think we are) can imagine things, and manipulate a very rich language. And when we create a complex enough concept, we (many of 'us')soon begin to assume that anything that clear (even if it ISN'T clear) must be 'real'.....and then they equivocate on the meaning of 'real'.

I'm sorry, but although I recognize pictures of dragons, and can list a bunch of generalized characteristics of dragons, the 'reality' is limited to imagination.

Without going to the trouble of typing all the details...which you can see coming anyway....it is similar with 'spirit','soul' and such notions....yes, we sorta mean something by the words, but we have manipulated the concept and the words until we think we are talking about something.........and when certain experiences occur, we patch the concepts we have stored onto the experiences and PRESTO!

Read some Ludwig Wittegenstein (or if you are really daring..*grin*, some C.S. Peirce), to see what can be done with language and the notions that arise from it.
The word 'soul' or even 'spirit' has uses, as Wolfgang notes...but it is well to be careful how you declaim that they refer to actual mechanisms that operate independently of 'us'.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

Yeah. I figure life is more enjoyable if one can bounce back and forth between the deeply serious and the downright silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:47 PM

Not at all, LH. You do give me whiplash sometimes when I follow you from one thread to another: cranial callisthenics to National Nude Goat Week ... ouch! ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM

You're accusing me of being pompous, aren't you, BPL? :-)

Well, they called Harry Lee Wigley pompous too, you know. They called William Shatner pompous. I figure I'm in good company.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM

Very cool, TBPL.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:25 PM

I agree, CarolC. (poetry thrown in free of charge)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

Only if the point of perception is validated.

Quite right. But points of perception that have been validated one day are quite often discarded as invalid at some latter date, as more and/or new information is acquired.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

Do you know why? And can you explain where that motivation came from or exactly what it is?

I thought that's what I just did. However ...
I'll tell you what it is: Thank goodness you're looking after me.

As perceptions change, so does science.

Only if the point of perception is validated.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:11 PM

And there has never lived a scientist without prejudice! Read about the disagreements between Edison, Tesla, and Westinghouse for some fascinating examples of disputes in science due to preconceived prejudice of one type or another.

Scientists are subjective and fallible, despite their conscious desire to be objective. They are creatures of time and place and culture, just like other people, and they serve hidden agendas just like other people.

As Carol says, spirit is freely available everywhere at every time. This may be why materialists are completely uninterested in it! It can't be hoarded or controlled for marketing purposes.

Mind you, certain unscrupulous religions have tried to do that from time to time... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:04 PM

If spirit existed in a physical sense (no pun intended) you could buy it in a jar and rub it on like ointment.

This makes no sense to me. Why should one have to buy something in a jar that is freely available, everywhere, all the time?

This is simply wrong. The whole point of scientific process is to examine without prejudice. Sure. tons of people have twisted results to meet perceptions, but they fool only themselves as science will always find them out.

Science is constantly correcting itself to accomodate new ways of understanding and percieving sense stimuli. Science is not static. As perceptions change, so does science.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:59 PM

I said myself that spirit is (among other things) motivation, BPL. Motivation is non-physical. Yet it exists. You know it does. You are motivated to debate this matter with me. Do you know why? And can you explain where that motivation came from or exactly what it is?

I'll tell you what it is: it's your unique consciousness (which is an organized form of intelligent energy) aiming itself at a particular objective, which is to enhance its own sense of identity and rightness. All of that is the work of unseen energy, temporarily housed in and expressing in and through your physical body. I call that unseen energy "spirit".

And, yes, of course it is my own take on what spirit is. Naturally. Would you rather I took someone else's word for it (like the Pope or the bishop)?

Many physical responses in the body are triggered by mental and emotional stimulation. The release of the adrenalin, etc, is an aftereffect of that, and assists the body in formulating an appropriate response. The non-physical moves first as energy, and the physical responds...which is exactly what happens with the radio, by the way or with any electrically operated device. Your body is a huge circuit board, and its actions are orchestrated by non-physical sources which then express in physical actions and results. To imagine that the body is responsible for it all is as foolish as to imagine that the radio is the source of the program.

Without your consciousness your body is an inert hunk of meat. Your consciousness is not physical and it IS spirit. And it's very, very real and powerful. Without it you would not exist as a living being.

Your consciousness is deeply loyal to what it already believes, and if it wants to believe that there is no spirit, well then, it will believe so and will argue strenuously using all the powers at its command. And they are considerable.

"The whole point of scientific process is to examine without prejudice."

Uh-huh. But find me a human being without prejudice... :-)

The culture you grew up in passed its prejudices on to you automatically, and if you are like most people you don't even know you have them. What is plainly obvious to a person from one culture may be completely unseen or denied by a person from another culture.

How do you KNOW that your culture has it all right? You don't. Most human cultures in the history of the World have believed in spirit. Most great philosophers have believed in spirit. Many great scientists have believed in spirit. Every North American Indian believed in spirit (before the whites came). Maybe they knew something you don't.

I know what most people who object to the word "spirit" think of when they hear the word. They think of a Sunday School level religious idea, a completely childish notion gotten from some rote religious teaching in some Christian church. That's not it. That's a primitive reference to it. That's barely scratching the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM

I'm referring to the one Little Hawk posted just above my response. I bypassed the one suggested by CarolC because, well, it has a built in not-allowed-to-question-it clause. How many definitions are there ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:27 PM

would engage you in a battle of wits Amos but my conscience will not allow me to fight an un-armed man.

IT would be the unarmed versus the half-armed at best. I think I remember using this quip in some equally juvenile context back in grade school, P.P. It reveals, perhaps, why you pose the question the way you did. It seems clear that you are not really raising the questions, or interested in appreciating the possible answers.

BPL, you are referring to an entriely different definition than the one usually used in "Spirit versus Matter."

A