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BS: Matter and Spirit
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:18 PM 2B - there is little doubt others at your workshops will agree with you. You're unlikely to attract people who would not do so. I've been to such workshops (OK, I have to retract that as I really have no idea what yours entails) and have remained completely unnaffected. Hypnotists, psychics, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, homeopaths, healers, polychromatic priests and certain pidgeon fanciers. Apparently, it's my own fault the tricks never seem to come off: I give off 'negative energy' and diminish the power of the guru. Well. It's obvious you guys are never going to give an inch on this. Those 's(k)eptics' on this and other threads like it have stopped short of denouncement (I exclude some rudish guests) because we're actually interested in what it is you ARE doing. Have you ever thought what the ramifications of finding out what's truly going on would be? We're not (I'm not anyway) trying to trash anyone's belief systems, just looking for testable answers, or even clues ... throw us a bone here. I'm off to drink beer soon. It's made with water, malt, hops ... and yeast, which used to be called 'godisgood' ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:52 PM Now the Mudcat mystics would have us believe that the universe consists of two different types of things mater and for want of a definable word "Spirit". Now if these two things interact at all scales then when we experiment on mater what we discover is not just the properties of mater but the properties of the mater-spirit complex and therefore the discoveries of Physics are correct and apply to the universe. If however this spirit stuff only interacts with matter that has a mind buy what mechanism does it effect mind and mind affect spirit. In short would the universe be any different if we discard the concept of spirit entirely. And please give some evidence that is at least in principal testable. Piper: I am one of those mystics, and I will take a stab at it. Everything is made of atoms right? There is a minimum of 1 and usually a lot more electron, protron or Neutron orbiting the nucleus. What happens when one of these sub atomic particle moves to a closer orbit? some amount of of energy is released. Do you remember that in tests on these subatomic particles that they often behaved in the way the scientists expected. As a mystic; I think I can explain it. Because of the scientists expectation; they were unconsciously direct lifeforce energy that has been called by many names ch'i, itaki, ki, mana, manitou, nuwati, Reiki, etc) this energy follows thought, and their thoughts or expectations; directed the energy that affected the outcome. Kirlian photography shown the increases size of the field around the hands of healers, and others that consciously direct this energy. I'm not sure quite what you are asking there, Pied Piper, but some of us don't see "matter" and "spirit" as being separate at all. To us, it's just the perception of matter and spirit that seems to have separateness. And, as we know, perception is relative and not always testable. (In other words, to some of us, matter is also "spirit", just in a different form than the more ethereal aspects of spirit. So for some of us, everythig is "spirit", matter included.) I agree Carol: Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit. If spirit existed in a physical sense (no pun intended) you could buy it in a jar and rub it on like ointment. BPL: Actually you can. It is pouring out of my hands almost all of the time. ;-) That is what I use when I do healings. Remember Phogiston? And Ether? and "universal mind"? and "dragons, unicorns, a benevolent dictator, and pixies!" Bill D: You mean they don't!? I would be willing to submit to a polygraph that I once met a dragon almost nose to nose once. Have you people ever hear of a funny thing called evolution? There is no soul, no spirit, no good, and no evil. There is only nature. Guest: Yes I have heard of evolution, and I believe in micro evolution. People ARE becoming taller and more intelegent; but I do NOT believe in macro evolution where one species mutates into another. If we evolved from monkeys; why are there still monkeys? If you choose to not believe in good and evil; be my guest; but your belief does not make it so. I KNOW evil exists because I have done more than my share of exorcisms. Last April; I exorcized a house of very negative entities. The family dog would go to the top of the stairs and growl; but could not be forced to go down stairs. After a friend of a friend and I went down there abd cleansed the basement; the dog happily came down the stairs and went through the basement with us. Guest; If you do not believe me; PM me, and I will give you the name and address, and E-Mail address of the family and YOU can ask them if I am lying to you. I have also gone into places so negative that a Catholic priest was picked up in the air and thrown about 10 feet, and he quickly left the home instead of completing the house blessing. Another friend, and her family in New York was being terrified by dark shadows with glowing red eyes. I told her how to do a house blessing via the Native American nethod (smudging the house with sage) she bought some white sage and burned it and fanned the smoke into the corners, closets, under the beds, in drawers, etc, and the dark shadows, nightmaresm and bad luck ended. I have several letters like this in my filing cabinet. If you are near Nashville, Tn. you are welcome to come by and read the folder. You and I are both humans with the same faculties. You claim to experience things in a way most people cannot. How can we non-experiencers accept our deficiency as real if you dismiss attempts to verify validity of your powers? I say this to Little Hawk, Two Bears et al too. You brush off pleas for proof with the same expression of not caring if we believe you or not. But I share the journey of life with you and I have been led down so many garden paths, distracted at so many snake-oil stalls and exhausted by so many wild goose chases I cannot afford to waste any more time. BPL: you are missing something important, Some people are near sighted, others are far sighted, others are color blind, others are hard of hearing, etc. Everyone does NOT have the same faculties. Tell me what part of the country you are in, and when I am going to be in your area; I will invite you along as my guest when I go to do a healing, an exorcism, or teach a HUNA workshop. It will only take a little time, and you can talk to the others people there, and find out if I am a snake oil salesman or gasp (what I claim to be). of spiritual energy is similar to mine (everybody's different, so I won't say "the same"), no one experiences it even a little bit the way I do. This is not because I have any special "powers", Carol: You are EXACTLY correct. The reason is that everyone's sub conscious mind (unihipili in HUNA vernacular) has expactation of how energy is supposed to feel, and the Unihipili modulates the energy to feel the wy they are expecting it to feel. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM And, no, I can't prove any of that to those of you who are skeptical about the matter! :-) It's not the matter that we're sceptical about LH ... ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM The best test would be to have CarolC around for tea while one has one of these crystal thingies hidden in a cupboard. If she suddenly gets sick then there maybe something in what she says (or there may not be - other variables - coincidences in diet, climatic conditions, state of mind when these attacks occured - could well be taken into account). I would point out that CarolC having my fellow sceptics visit her with a crystal would not be a 'fair test', because as soon as she saw them she would be aware that a test was imminent. If her symptoms are a psychosomatic phenomenon as I suspect as a sceptic, this could trigger them off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:28 PM Oh great more delusional new age shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:27 PM There is a universal energy source available everywhere, but you need to know how to tap it, that's all. It seems that this form of crystal Carol is speaking of may be one useful device for doing that. Nikola Tesla was working on accessing a universal field of energy. It's out there, and it ultimately powers everything, including all living beings. I have the impression that the space vehicles that visit us from time to time make direct use of it, but I am only theorizing when I say that. It's not something you burn, and it's not something you need to connect to with wires, but it can provide an unlimited suppy of energy which can then be converted into heat, light, electricity, gravitational force, etc. What you need is a receiver/transmitter to make use of it, regulate the amount, and control it. The human body itself can be used as such a receiver/transmitter. And, no, I can't prove any of that to those of you who are skeptical about the matter! :-) Sorry, I truly wish I could... If I could prove it to a large enough number of people, though, and the oil industry found out, then they would either bribe me to shut up about it or kill me. They've got money to make, an oligarchy to maintain, and a captive populace to milk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM So, copper tubing, silver solder ... what else? Where's the energy source? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:45 PM OK. Help me out, I might be looking in the wrong place. My searches are suggesting a Genesa crystal is a shape not a real crystal. Is that correct? That's correct. They're not too difficult to make. I've made several myself using copper refrigerator tubing and silver solder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM I need to amend this part of my last post: I have no incentives to want to experience energy the way I do. There is nothing about the way I experience energy that would cause me to want to have these experiences. I do think that, if I didn't have the particular problem that I have with getting easily overloaded, I would most definitely prefer to be as sensitive and open to energy as I am. I have found, on the occasions when I have been not open to spiritual energy, that I feel much more "flat" and one dimensional than when I am open to spiritual energy. And while I don't think I would seek out the kinds of unpleasant experiences that I have, there are many good things that also accompany my being as sensitive and open to energy as I am (including waaaayyy better sex, if my partner is also open able to work with spritual energy... and no, you can not come here and test that ;-) So given the benefit of hindsight, I know I would still choose to be as sensitive and open to spiritual energy as I am, even if it means experiencing the discomfort that comes along with it. But I know that I would not deliberately set out to have the unpleasant kinds of experiences I have with spiritual energy. P.S. I think I know a way to test and even measure the effect that spiritual energy has on plants based on the scientific model we used when I worked in the herbicide research dept. at the University of Maryland many years ago. I'll work something up and maybe get back to you guys with what I get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM OK. Help me out, I might be looking in the wrong place. My searches are suggesting a Genesa crystal is a shape not a real crystal. Is that correct? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM Pied Piper, you are putting words in my mouth. Doing what Bill D calls operating from a faulty premise. I said that people start wars for reasons having to do with money, power and territory, and they employ science to help them do it. You are the one who said scientists started the war. However, any time a scientist creates a weapon because of the money, fame, recognition or respect from peers, etc, that come with breaking new ground in the scientific world (I'm not saying all are motivated by this, but some certainly are), he or she is in no way motivated by altruism or anything other than self-interest. the point is: IF your premises happen to be false...(I mean really, ultimately false) THEN your conclusions are suspect. Therefore, it is a good idea to be wary of conclusions whose premises are, by definition, not testable under current knowlege Much of the more 'esoteric' experiences do need to be investigated and compared...who knows-- we might find out stuff that is solid and clear explanations for some of it! (Maybe someone will develop an instrument that can monitor the emanations of a Genesa crystal and SHOW that you are right...*shrug*) No boubt that some of what you call "esoteric" experiences are indeed just flights of fancy. And no doubt some of them cause people to make bad decisions. But in the case of those people, I would suspect that such people would most probably be making bad decisions based on faulty premises even in the absence of the more "esoteric" way of looking at things. I've met many such people. On the other hand. many people who are serious about the way they conduct their lives, from a spiritual standpoint, would tell you that their spirituality doesn't produce a "feel good" kind of convenient pretend world, but rather, it causes them to have to live a lot more responsibly with regard to their fellow humans and also all of nature, and the planet as a whole. And that, while they are at peace with their particular trajectory in life, it is not any easier, and is, in fact, a lot more challenging and even more difficult to maintain than a life without this spiritual focus. And as you can see, many of my experiences can be described as anything but "feel good" experiences. I have no incentives to want to experience energy the way I do. There is nothing about the way I experience energy that would cause me to want to have these experiences. If anything, there are many, many things about my experiences that would motivate me to want to not have them. And I never expected to have these experiences either. I have never seen or heard anyone describe the kinds of experiences I have, so it was not "suggestion" that prompted these experiences. I just note what I experience and when I have enough of the same kind of experience, I try to notice what the circumstances are that surround that experience and learn how to deal with it in the most effective way. It is just as faulty a premise to suggest that a spiritual focus causes bad or inapropriate behavior or decisions in humans as it is to suggest that a scientific focus causes bad or inapropriate behavior or decisions in humans. The reasons for bad behavior and decisions is a result of faulty thought processes within each human, and things like spirituality and science (and many, many other kinds of focus) are simply the vehicles for the expression of these faulty thought processes. (Maybe someone will develop an instrument that can monitor the emanations of a Genesa crystal and SHOW that you are right...*shrug*) Maybe. They don't emanate anything though. They work with the energy that is already present. They draw it in, concentrate it and "condition" it, and then send it back out. Me...I'd rather help TBPL set up the double-blind experiment...*grin*...but you guessed that) I have issued the invitation. It's up to you and TBPL to take me up on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:16 PM That's true. It is dead simple. It's founded on a singularity which is immeasurable, and essentially indescribable. That singularity then manifests as duality...which can be expressed in terms of vibratory movement (wave-forms of energy). We then observe the playing out of that duality in uncountable trillions of forms, events, energetic movements, phenonmena, material objects, etc. In all of these observable things we find polarity, expressing duality. Male-female, dark-light, up-down, left-right, within-without, postitive-negative, good-bad, winner-loser, and so on... People then set about giving all kinds of fancy names to these examples of duality they see around them, fighting over whether their interpretation of it all is more valuable than the other guy's interpretation, and so. That's how they formed the religions, and the political systems, and the social customs, and so on. It's all in-out-in-out like the surf, or your breath, or your heartbeat, or the act of sex. That's simple all right. The person who sees meaning and intelligence behind that Universal simplicity sees life as a spiritual circumstance. The person who thinks it all "just happened somehow by natural laws", but for no conscious or purposeful reason, doesn't see it that way. I think that's what divides people like Wolfgang and me, Bill. I see a meaning behind it all, he sees a functioning mechanism without a meaning behind it all. As for people killing people for spiritual reasons...naw...I don't think so. People kill people for religious reasons. There's a difference! And they also kill people for money, power, and a host of other reasons, needless to say...but they very seldom kill people for any reason that I would term "spiritual". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM THere ya go, mate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM My God Amos I think you've got somthing there. The Univers is what I want it to be. Dead simple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM Occam's Razor -- to me a single postulate explaining a whole range of phenomena is a lot simpler and therefore preferable than rejecting the postulate and being left with "life is just matter made very complicated, and consciousness doubly so" which requires all sorts of contrivances to explain things. Maybe Occam's Razor is one of those things that reflects the bias of the user, I guess. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:42 AM Yes Carol Scientists started the Second World War to pursue their highly un-spiritual aim of making an atomic bomb. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about the NAZI /Japanese axes trying to take over the world. The bomb shortened the War and led to less allied troops dying. Was it justified? I don't know. Would I have made the same decision in their place? Probably. It's a wicked world and hindsight is a wonderful thing. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:06 AM Carol... "Spiritual reasons for killing others comprise a portion of all of the reasons people have for killing each other, but hardly all of the reasons" of course, that is true!..and sad...but it does not address the point I was making, in which I only used that as an extreme example of what possibly faulty premises can lead to.... I can also make points about premises that assume that money & power are sufficient to justify killing....and there are many who truly believe THAT also! If you & I could get these people into a room, we might try to show them that, in the larger view, their premises are ultimately false, and will do more harm than good....but we can't force them to agree with our logic, we can only hope to convince them to stop by substituting reasons they can comprehend. "stop that crap, or you are dead meat"..etc... the point is: IF your premises happen to be false...(I mean really, ultimately false) THEN your conclusions are suspect. Therefore, it is a good idea to be wary of conclusions whose premises are, by definition, not testable under current knowlege. Unfortunately, too many folks see conclusions that are desirable, feel good, or are otherwise just plain interesting, and consciously or subconciously construct premises to fit. (I call this "throwing the dart, then drawing the bullseye around it"...*grin*) Much of the more 'esoteric' experiences do need to be investigated and compared...who knows-- we might find out stuff that is solid and clear explanations for some of it! (Maybe someone will develop an instrument that can monitor the emanations of a Genesa crystal and SHOW that you are right...*shrug*) Me...I'd rather help TBPL set up the double-blind experiment...*grin*...but you guessed that) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:42 AM just missed your post, Amos... what I think is, you don't have enough options in either of your lists....like Pascal's wager, there are many more options than he gives. Actually, I do NOT tend towards 3, I tend towards a combination of 1 & 2 1) they are telling the truth about what they experienced AND (2) they are I have MANY times had "flying dreams" and 'seen' the world from above...in views I have never had RT....but I do know what it feels like to look down on things...and I know the concept of flying.....and (you may see where I'm headed)..I know what *I* look like, and have also had dreams where I 'saw' myself, as if in a little movie. This sort of mental activity, I assume, could lead to OBEs. Note...I do NOT claim I have proved it can't happen, only that I have a great respect for Occam's Razor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:53 PM No disagreement there, either, Carol. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:31 PM Spiritual reasons for killing others comprise a portion of all of the reasons people have for killing each other, but hardly all of the reasons. Money, power, and territory are also very common reasons people kill other people. And they employ science to help them do it. So let's not be pointing fingers in only one direction when it comes to that sort of thing. Nuclear weaponry, in my opinion one of the most horrific, and certainly the most potentially destructive of all earthly creations, was not created by people on a religious mission. It was created by scientists for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Sometimes when people don't realize they have a soul, they operate with less concern for any damage they might do to it through the way they behave while in the physical body. These kinds of arguments can cut both ways. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:00 PM Ha! Too bad, el ted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:59 PM Don Firth - Beautifully said! "Your body and all those things around you are matter. Your life is spirit." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bobert Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:59 PM (Okay, Bobert, think that mighta gone over a few heads. Can you expalin the same thing using Bob Dylan as a denominator?) Nope. Hurt my head bad nuff allready... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:36 PM That's an easy agreement to make. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:26 PM "You're right from your side, I'm right from mine." that applies JUST fine to stuff like whether cherry pie is better than apple pie, or whether Bob Dylan is better than Eric Bogle...but as to whether wine and wafers change to body & blood, or whether souls really enter embryos, and when, it is not so easy. Wars are fought and lives are affected every day over opinions that can't both be true at the same time....No test will answer any of those questions, and people will believe what they wish to....but I do hope they will someday quit killing each other over their disagreements...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM Bill: There are various ways to detect that kind of illogic. One of them is inconsistency -- a religion in support of human life leading people to destroy human life is inconsistent; and to my way of thinking a religion that is not in support of human life is undesireable, but that's another matter. The idea that the truth can be unethical is pretty illogical to me. But it is clear that blowing up humans innocent of wrongdoing is unethical. A large number of people -- perhaps a majority, I don't know -- experience some moments from the outside of their bodies rather than inside. This means that (1) they are telling the truth about what they experienced or (2) they are wilfully altering what they experienced or (3) they are subject to a mass illusion that is very widespread. For reasons I do not quite understand you gravitate toward the 3rd interpretation, but I would argue with you that this explanation requires the most complex of models to be deemed "true". A very large number of people have NOT experienced any moments that they can report outside of their bodies. This means that (1) anyone who says they have done so is lying or (2) anyone who has NOT done so is lying or (3) such experiences are possible, but there are other variables involved as to when and who might experience them. If I were to choose, given the earlier population mentioned above, I would have to say (3) is the right explanation. I would hazard a guess, further that the variables primarily revolve around the deep and wonderful maze known as "decisions", and further hypothesize that the ingredients that influence individual life-changing and awareness-changing decisions are many, including emotion, pain, confusion, duress, hypnosis, biochemical influences, and more positive components like long-term personal spiritual goals that stretch across lifetimes, the hunger for insight and discovery, compassion, and the ability to perceive. Among other things. If one person has experienced a genuine experience independent of a body, you are faced with a white-crow phenomenon, meaning it disproves the absolute notion that all humans are just their bodies. If one human is demonstrably more than his body, than it opens the possibility that N... are, or even possibly that all are, possibly. To find one case history that seems consistent and acceptable to your standards of logical data should be fairly easy if you try -- the libraries are full of studies on re-incarnation, and related studies. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bobert Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:23 PM Well, I ain't gonn agt this 100% right but perhaps close enough for one of the heavy hitters to come along and clean it up... Let's equate spirit with energy. No, no. Not what it takes to creat the energy but the actual product. What does energy weigh? Well, nuthin'... Like will one volt of electricity, if it could be released by itself fall to earth? Well, probably not. Matter, however, has wieght. Yes, the electron is kinda like a firld general in it atomins makeup and allows it hook up with other atoms and become compounds but each atom has wieght. The electron in the atom however does not. Or it is my opnion, learn-ed or not, that the electron is weightless... Well, lets get back to spirit. It, like the tiny electron, like the floating volt that we unleashed has no weight and therefore no particular master since only weighted material is subject to a gravitational forces. (But, Bobert, how would you explain the electrical fields that are very much part of the earth which is a gravitaional master?) Well, lets get back to atoms and weight and look at the way an electron circles its atoms while also allowing it to combine with other atomic matter. If we look at the earth less as a massive complex compound of all the various elements of the atominc chart and think for a moment of just how insiginficant earth is in raletionship to the rest of the uiniverse then it is posssible to think of earth as nothing more than just another atom on the chart with its electrical fields being no more soignificant than the electrons encircling a single atom... That leaves energy as the wild card, so to speak, because it is not confined exclusively to a gravitation master but, unless tied up at the moment holding something together, is free while matter, unless caught up in some type of energy/rebellion, such as an explosion or launching from the gravitational master, is damned to a life with that master... That's the way me and Wes Ginny Slide Rule have it figurated... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Don Firth Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:21 PM Methinks the problem comes in when people regard matter and spirit as two separate and distinct things, sort of like—well—two different kinds of matter. There's solid matter (knock on the table top), and we all know what that is: the earth, the sun, fish and chips, the guitar in its case in the other room, the keyboard I'm typing on, the dust bunnies under the bed, etc.; and then there's this other thing that we've heard about called "spirit," and we don't know quite what it is, but it seems to be sort of fuzzy, and we can't see it, but just as we're almost about to grasp a clear idea of it, it slips away again. Like another world (sort of), but there's an obscuring veil that makes it next to impossible to distinguish. My idea (". . . until the times do alter. . . ."): the musical instrument, the hands that play it, the specific vibrations in the air, the ears you hear the vibrations with, that is all matter. The music is spirit. Your body and all those things around you are matter. Your life is spirit. Most people assume that "matter" and "spirit" are both nouns. "Matter" is a noun. And (no matter what the dictionary says) "spirit" is a verb. That's what makes the whole thing elusive, difficult to grasp. Don Firth P. S.: Anybody buy this? I think it works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:08 PM Well said, Bill. On the whole I agree with you. It's a little hard, though, to decide definitively who is "right" in a lot of cases, because as Bob Dylan said "You're right from your side, I'm right from mine." Everybody thinks what they're doing is right...that's why they do it. It's very subjective. You or I may not think it's right, but they do or they wouldn't do it. This applies to suicide bombers quite spectacularly. I don't think they're right, you don't think they're right, but they think they're right. The Universe has no restrictions upon the use of free will, aside from certain physical laws of reality. That makes it pretty subjective deciding what is right. For me, what is of the greater benefit to life in general is right and what is not is wrong, but that's just my personal view on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST, cookielessTBPL Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:54 PM I'll drink to that. After work tomorrow, Spinnakers brewpub, Victoria, BC. I'll buy ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:54 PM If I only believed in stuff that was empirically testable, I would have to become willfully blind to a great deal of what's out there...and my life would lose a large portion of what makes it most interesting for me LH: I could not say it better; or agree more. I cannot imagine going back to the life I had before my first OBE (Out of Body Experience). ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:50 PM There is a tremendous something behind life that is frankly, unknowable. It's a mystery. And that is fine with me. I'm all for enjoying the beauty of mystery, amigo; but the deepest gunkhole in the mystery of life is knowable, one way or another, sooner or later. Every single inch. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:26 PM "You simply cannot expect to control all of life, Bill." ummmm...I don't think I even suggested I could..or should ...if that's a response to my wish for 'more awareness', then I can only say 10% of something's better than 100% of nothing. ANY increase in education and understanding of how reason, science & logic work can only be beneficial. Some people take the attitude that those principles don't apply if they ignore them...but "it ain't necessarily so". 2+2 don't = 5 just because some don't want to be limited by silly, inflexible rules..... I wish I could explain clearly how important is the rule of logic that says "from false premises, anything follows". This is not a 'matter of opinion'....it is not a personal attitude...it is not tricky bit of rhetoric...it IS the way things work, and its implications are manifold.... One example-various young people in the world are committing suicide with bombs these days, in an effort to harm their 'enemies'...most/many of them do this because they had been led to think that such an act of sacrifice will get them direct admission to paradise....not ALL members of their religion agree with this notion. They cannot both be right. The young people do the things based on several premises...that there IS a 'paradise', that certain kinds of killing qualify you go there, that non-members of their religion are a danger that NEEDS defense...etc...etc...If those premises are wrong, it has grave implications. Yeah, that's an extreme example, but the point is the same even if the premises are not so clear and the implications are not so immediately staggering. I dunno...I can't change much of anything...and changing minds is about the hardest thing of all....but Max says this blather will live for a long time...*sly grin*, so perhaps someone will read it and say.."oh...NOW I get it!"....maybe..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:14 PM PP: I think if you look again, PP, you will find the first name-calling was your idea. I don't start pissing matches, as a rule. I find them senseless. I think you are being somewhat scurrilous, for reasons I have no data about, but I am willing to ignore it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:13 PM Not worthless. Just not of very much interest to me. If you want to come and administer the test, be my guest. Although you're not the one who would have to experience a lot of discomfort in order to satisfy your curiousity. I'm the one who would have to experience the discomfort in order to satisfy your curiousity. But have at it if you want. I live in Fort Mitchell, Alabama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM I'm a little disappointed you'd dismiss the test as worthless, though not in the least surprised. We'll let it drop there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:30 PM I definitely agree with LH's 12 Aug 04 - 01:02 PM post. TBPL, there are other things (sources of concentrated spiritual energy) that can cause this reaction as well. I know what they are, and most of the time, I know what to do when I encounter them. As far as testing the Genesa crystals specifically, I don't quite see the point, since I know from experience that if I either remove the crystal or move myself away from the crystal, I will feel better. I also know from experience that if I don't do one of these two things, I will suffer terribly until I either remove myself or the crystal. And then I feel better. Testing the Genesa crystal with a double blind experiment might make you feel better, but it doesn't really do anything for me one way or another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:16 PM CarolC, whatever the crystal is, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to set up a test to see if it did indeed affect you. If you could detect the presence of the crystal 'double blind' that would require science to examine the properties of the crystal to see what is was emitting. If not, then it would raise the liklihood that the bad effects are brought on in some other way. In my opinion, TBPL, nothing is supernatural. People have the habit of calling things and experiences that don't fit their notion of normality supernatural. That's because they don't understand those things, but those things are all entirely natural. LH, yes, I'll agree. Although I'm still not sure the goat thing is entirely natural ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:02 PM In my opinion, TBPL, nothing is supernatural. People have the habit of calling things and experiences that don't fit their notion of normality supernatural. That's because they don't understand those things, but those things are all entirely natural. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:57 PM You probably wouldn't find them particularly interesting, TBPL, unless you want to use them for purposes having to do with spiritual energy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:31 PM I have no idea what a 36" Genesa crystal is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:22 PM Why then ascribe quantitive value to the unknown? This is what grates my cheddar. If something makes you sick and you can't figure out what it is, doctors can't help, xray machines can't see, etc. why then deem it supernatural? I think recognizing something as currently unknown is preferable to assigning it fantastic origins. I know you're replying to LH, but there are sometimes good reasons to understand how some things effect us even if we can't understand completely why. For instance, I know that I should never, never stand near a 36" Genesa crystal. And I should make every effort to not be within a two mile radius around a 36" Genesa crystal if I can possibly avoid it. If I can't avoid it, I need to have someone or something nearby that can relieve me of excess energy if I start to feel overloaded. These are practical considerations relating to matters that many don't even recognize as existing. But they're very real to me. If I understand how spiritual energy effects me, I can find ways to work with it so that it helps me rather than causing me discomfort. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM There is a tremendous something behind life that is frankly, unknowable. Why then ascribe quantitive value to the unknown? This is what grates my cheddar. If something makes you sick and you can't figure out what it is, doctors can't help, xray machines can't see, etc. why then deem it supernatural? I think recognizing something as currently unknown is preferable to assigning it fantastic origins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM Both rely on the other. Farting shows the spirit of digestion and a good healthy crap is tangible matter from it. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:02 PM You and Pied Piper may see it as a "red herring", Bill, but that is an opinion. You are certainly entitled to your opinions. But like beliefs, opinions are not scientifically testable. (*grin*) As for your example of GWB and his religious motivations, I agree with you completely. Our politicians should be completely up front with us about the reasons for what they do. Unfortunately, this will not happen any time soon. GWB may be motivated by his fundamentalist Christian religion. On the other hand, he may be motivated by his materialist religion (Money - which is most certainly quantifiable). Doesn't really matter which it is though, since all politicians know better than to admit they're doing anything other than what is "for the good of the country". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:59 AM You simply cannot expect to control all of life, Bill. Life will always contain unknowns and imponderables. I think it's because of a fear of that that certain people are very attracted to specific organized disciplines (or religions) which try to propose a rule for everything and do not give credence to things they can't come up with a rule for. It's a reaction to fear of the unknown. I like the unknown, because it is the companion of Life. It's a friend, not an enemy. There is a tremendous something behind life that is frankly, unknowable. It's a mystery. And that is fine with me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:51 AM I don't know what that means, but it sounds exactly right. yep, clint...so perfect...so succinct...so universal. Carol, I can't really disagree with your stance--it is not an uncommon one. It is, as Pied Piper says, a sort of red herring; but it makes little difference in most human interaction......however, there are times when people act on some "inner" feeling in ways that is not socially/ethically comfortable. If G W Bush had a 'personal' experience with the Almighty, and we discovered that the policies of the USA were being conducted accordingly.....well, you see why *I* would like to tout some clear distinctions and definitions, so that as many people as possible understood what the relation to 'proof' and 'belief' is...........a forlorn, idealistic hope, hmmm? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:50 AM There will always be matters that are not empirically testable, as well as matters that are empirically testable. That doesn't worry me. You can only empirically test something if you have the necessary equipment (artificial or biological) with which to test it...and only if you know how to handle that equipment in an effective matter. If I only believed in stuff that was empirically testable, I would have to become willfully blind to a great deal of what's out there...and my life would lose a large portion of what makes it most interesting for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM For science to "prove" the existance of my experience to you would deny you the opportunity to continue to not recognise its existance. Maybe not recognising the existance of what I experience is exactly what you need to be doing. No one is saying your experience does not exist, CarolC. Science looks into the nature of such experience and ask how it may have come about. I hear no one dispute its occurance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM If we are free to just use logic and the scientific method on the experiences we choose and rely on other criteria when we don't like the implications of science, where are we? Pretty much right where we are right now, Bill. *G* I'm sure that if there WAS good scientific basis for paranormal phenomena, science would be touted highly.. Not for me, Bill. Here's my reasoning... the way I see it, each person experiences what is appropriate for him or her, for whatever reason. We're all different, and we all have our own reasons for the different kinds of experiences we seek out and/or recognise. I don't want science to try to define what, to me, is something that defies definition. If what I experience is not valid for you, I don't see any reason at all why it also needs to be invalid for me. This is why I don't see any need to try to make you understand the nature of my experiences. What you experience is obviously valid for you or you would be experiencing something else. For science to "prove" the existance of my experience to you would deny you the opportunity to continue to not recognise its existance. Maybe not recognising the existance of what I experience is exactly what you need to be doing. |
