From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:34 PM

This makes sense to me, Gibb. I appreciate the suggestion about how "Santiana" can be "mapped right on top of "Sacramento"." Somewhere, in my looking at "Sacramento", I recall the suggestion that this is meant to be taken as a highly sarcastic song, even cynical. In fact there was *not* a "lot of gold on the banks of the Sacramento" and a lot of 49'ers crashed and burned out there. The culture not only loved to poke fun at itself, like with "Betsy from Pike", but it was could be very harsh and cynical. I'm thinking that "Banks of the Sacramento" could have arisen a bit later, after the first major onslaught, as sort of a retrospective on the situation, and a way of warning those who still thought they wanted to uproot their lives and head for San Francisco. How much "later" I don't know. But it could have been toward the middle of the 1850's at least. I'm beginning to think that a lot of the "off to California to dig gold" type songs were of this later, more cynical nature, rather than the earlier, naive and high-spirited stuff. There has to be a good explanation why none of them are showing up in print anywhere.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 02:47 PM

John
My 2 cents is that the originator of that "californio" strain (whoever it was, i.e. Odetta, etc) just latched onto the variation in the one chorus because they liked it and it was more referentially "American." It helps to reconcile what they would have considered to be the set, "traditional" lyric that refers to going to Frisco Bay, digging gold, etc.

How did the "Californio" line get there in the first place? Well, the singer was recorded solo, presumably, so he was not bound to the corrective force of a chorus. "Santiana" can be mapped right on top of "Sacramento," so the influence may have come from that song. (Also cf. "plenty of gold, so I've been told").

The two songs got "crossed" by Sailor Dad, then the American revival singers edited it to conform to their American frame of reference.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 02:14 PM

Lighter, I keep catching up with myself. I did in fact ask for Davis & Tozer's version of "Santiana" back on April 16th, here:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=555#2887890

Thanks again for putting this information up for me. The Davis & Tozer version, while perhaps not as old as I thought it was, nevertheless does not have the "bound for Californio" refrain.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:42 AM

John-

Hmmm?

There's a copy of YARNS OF AN OLD SHELLBACK about two feet in front of me as I'm typing. I didn't make the connection but I know that CFS provided an introduction. Millet was associated with both the "Tweed" and the "Cutty Sark," two of the most famous China tea clippers. Capt. Millet went to sea as an apprentice in 1880.

I'll do some more review when I'm back from NEFFA this weekend.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:58 AM

Lighter, please ignore my request for "Shallow Brown" from "Dozer" (!) I was the one who was "dozering", and not only conflated Davis and Tozer, but had failed to check my request over on the "Shallow Brown" thread, where you had already posted this information. Thanks for doing that. It is interesting that Davis/Tozer come to "Santiana" in a later edition.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:53 AM

So far, I have found only a few bits of information on Captain Millett. He was "of Cutty Sark fame and a member of the Port of London Authority," wrote something in 1927, and had a theory about the disappearance of the ship "Celeste", with the suggestion "that the Celeste had been boarded by pirates of the Rif (the coastal region of Morocco..." He died at Penzance. (From snippets on Google Book Search). He wrote a book entitled YARNS OF AN OLD SHELLBACK published in 1925. I don't have access to that book.

In her book, A BOOK OF FAMOUS SHIPS, C.F. Smith has a chapter on the "Cutty Sark", but does not mention Captain Willett. She does talk about a Captain Willis, but I don't think that they are the same person. In a very quick scan, I was not able to find any other references in this book to Captain Willett, but I may have missed them. Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gYadeUzJnh8C&pg=PP1&dq=A+Book+of+Famous+Ships&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

So, I haven't come up with any more on either Captain Willett or his song "Bound to California".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 11:06 PM

Gibb, I appreciate your thoughts on "Sacramento". This is sort of how I have pieced it together although I missed the connection with "Sailor Fireman".

In my list above, which I copied over from an offline source, I spot one formatting error. Third from the bottom, "Haul way, yeo ho, boys!" should not be connected to "Pull away now, my Nancy O!", but be on the following line.

Charlie, I am finding "titles" to be a bit tricky. Many of the contemporary titles of chanties we take for granted today simply weren't there in the sources we've been looking at, or they were different. I don't know of any standardized, authoritative, and commonly accepted list of titles at this point. I tried to list the titles given in the sources, and when there was no title then I went with an age-old practice of listing the first line. In a number of cases, the sources only mention a first line. In one or two instances I have added a contemporary title following that which is given in the source like with "Mobile Bay" / "Johnny come tell us as we haul away". I admit and have admitted to arbitrarily calling the "seeman do" song "Yankee Dollar". I don't remember that the source has a title. I don't see that my approach is all that different from what Gibb has done, but we do take different tacks on this. I apologize for not putting them in alphabetical order. I was listing them as I found them historically and in the thread discussion. If you want them done chronologically and alphabetically, please check these links:

thread.cfm?threadid=128220&messages=222#2892320

thread.cfm?threadid=128220&messages=222#2892385

Captain Millett's "Bound to California", given by C.F. Smith does refer to going to California "to reap the shining gold!" But, a number of other songs also refer to California and the Gold Rush days. Some of them are later and so far I've not been able to date any of them to the late 1840's or 1850's. Unless we can date Captain Millett at Algoa Bay, I am in the same dilemma with this song. I simply don't have a time frame of reference for it external to the song itself. And Smith is right when she says that it doesn't show up in any other collection. Do we have any additional information on Captain J.L. Vivian Millet?

Lighter, did we cross a wire somewhere? The reason I ask is that I was looking for Dozer's version of "Shallow Brown", and I was wondering if you confused that with "Santiana". In any case, can you post Dozer's "Shallow Brown" here? I'd appreciate it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 08:26 PM

Here is my sketchy take on "Sacramento."

It is a sort of composite of several songs. The Hutchinson Family's "Ho! For California" of 1849 supplied the chorus.

Listen Here

The verse melody may have come from the SAILOR FIREMAN song. Either that, or it was simply "cut from the same cloth" that this came from. Listen HERE. Now, remember to compare that to what may have been the ORIGINAL verse melody of "Sacramento." I hate my rendition of it, but what the hell, listen HERE

The only missing piece is "hoo-da"/"doo-da" (or "ho day" in the Plattdeutsche version). That is the only bit that, to my mind, really needs to be reconciled with respect to Stephen Foster's 1850 song. I don't know which chicken or egg came first there.

Later on, I would imagine that Camptown Races entered the public consciousness and it all got blended together some more. Because of the "hoo-da" similarity, sailors may have started singing their verses to the same melody as that of Camptown Races.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 08:19 PM

John-

Please sort your lists by title! If Gibb can manage it, so can you.

And "Bound to California" might be added as well, given that it is a direct reference to the Gold Rush days.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 07:48 PM

From Davis & Tozer, Third Ed. (1906). The song is not in the First Edition of ca1887, and no copies of the Second (1888) seem to be available.

ON THE PLAINS OF MEXICO

Oh, Santa Anna won the day,
Away Santa Anna.
Santa Anna won the day,
On the plains of Mexico.

Oh, Santa Anna fought for fame,...
Santa Anna gained his name,....

Oh, Santa Anna's men were brave,...
Many found a soldier's grave,....

It was a fierce and bitter strife,...
Hand to hand they fought for life,....

Oh, Santa Anna's name is known,...
What a man could do was shown,....

Oh, Santa Anna won the day,...
One more chorus then belay,....

The editors note that "Santa Anna" is "pronounced 'Santiana.'"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 07:37 PM

Thanks for waiting patiently, John!

Yes, they do match quite nicely. I forgot to log in Whidden's chanties!

I will have to think about "Sacramento" and get back to you.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:59 PM

Thanks for your list, Gibb. I've had a post ready to go for several days, but was waiting for either this list or new info over at Advent & Development. I'll go ahead and put it up now for comparison. They are almost the same. Here's what I have.
---
It seems that we've come full circle here on this thread. I would never say that we've discovered all that there is to discover out there, but we've managed to gather up quite a bit of material. While I've only been able to specifically document a couple of chanties for San Francisco or Sydney between 1853 and 1855 (see my last post above), we have been able to document a nice handful of work songs being sung on board ships around the world prior to about 1860.

The "Julia Ann" sailed three times from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855. I figure that if something shows up in print by 1860, there is a good chance that it was around as early as 1855. So based on our work in this thread, here is another tentative list of work songs that *could* have been used on board the "Julia Ann" on her three voyages out to Sydney.

"A Grog Time Of Day"
"Cheerily Men"
"Round The Corner, Sally"
"Nancy Fanana"
"Hieland Laddie"
"Sally Brown"
"Drunken Sailor"
"Fire Down Below"
"Stormalong"
"Across the Briny (Western) Ocean"
"A Hundred Years Ago"
"Mary Ann"
"Mobile Bay" / "Johnny, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"
"One More Day For Johnny"
"Outward And Homeward Bound"
"Haul The Bowline"
"All On The Plains Of Mexico"
"Aha, We're Bound Away, On The Wild Missouri"
"Whiskey Johnny"
"Paddy Works On The Railway"
"Row, Bullies, Row"
"Bully in the Alley"
"Pay me the money down"
"Bottle O"

And here are some songs that have not come down to us as such, but were documented as having been sung on shipboard prior to 1860.

"Highland day and off she goes"
"Tally hi o you know"
"Heigho, heave and go"
"Ho, O, heave O"/ "Row, Billy, row"
"Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go"
"O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O"
"Hurrah! Hurrah! my hearty bullies"
"Time for us to go"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Captain gone ashore"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Nancy oh!"
"Heave, to the the girls!"
"Pull away now, my Nancy O!"
"Haul way, yeo ho, boys!"
"Yankee Dollar"
"Fire Maringo"

I really wanted to add both "On the Banks of the Sacramento" and "Hog-Eyed Man" to this list, but I have not been able to document them in the 1850's as being sung on board a ship. It doesn't mean that they weren't around, but that nobody I've found *so far* has mentioned it. The "Hog-Eye" song was around as a fiddle song, but no one mentioned it as being used at sea for a work song. Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races" was written in 1850. But the relationship between "On the Banks of the Sacramento" and Foster's song are not exactly clear. If the chanty was so popular, why wasn't it mentioned by someone? They did mention other "popular songs". I have not begun to cover Charlie's extensive bibliography on the California Gold Rush, but my limited Google Book Search has not turned up anything on either of these two songs in the 1850's.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:51 PM

This is a list I made up of the shanties mentioned in shipboard contexts (or on Pacific islands, learned from sailors) from 1800s through 1850s. Some of the unverified titles/phrases (in lower case) may, naturally, just be phrases from other verified chanties on the list. Or they may not really be firm chanties at all.

I wonder how this matches up with what John has discovered so far.

ACROSS THE WESTERN OCEAN
BOTTLE O
BOWLINE
BULLEY IN ALLEY
Captain gone ashore!"
CHEERLY
DRUNKEN SAILOR
FIRE FIRE
GROG TIME
Heave her away"
Heave him up! O he yo!"
Heave round hearty!"
Heave, to the girls!"
Highland day and off she goes"
HIGHLAND LADDIE
Ho, O, heave O"
HUNDRED YEARS
Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"
Jack Cross-tree,"
Miranda Lee"
MONEY DOWN
MR. STORMALONG
Nancy oh!"
O ee roll & go"
O! hurrah my hearties O!"
Oh fare you well, my own Mary Anne"
Oh Sally Brown, Sally Brown, oh!"
OUTWARD AND HOMEWARD BOUND
PADDY ON THE RAILWAY
Pull away now, my Nancy, O!"
ROUND THE CORNER
SALLY BROWN
SANTIANA
SHENANDOAH
STORMALONG JOHN
STORMY
TALLY
Time for us to go!"
To the Greenland sea/ Black although she be"
When first we went a-waggoning"
WHISKEY JOHNNY
Whisky for Johnny!"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 09:03 AM

This looks like it might be a reference to a Gold Rush voyage to San Francisco in 1856. It is from LIFE BY LAND AND SEA, by Prentice Mulford, originally published in 1889. He is on board the "Wizard", and there is a lot of pumping going on. He says,

"For the first six weeks all the "shanty songs" known on the sea had been sung. Regularly at each pumping exercise we had "Santy Anna," "Bully in the Alley," "Miranda Lee," "Storm Along, John," and other operatic maritime gems, some of which might have a place in our modern operas of "The Pinafore" school. There's a good deal of rough melody when these airs are rolled out, by twenty or thirty strong lungs to the accompaniment of a windlass' clank and the wild, shrill sweep of the winds in the rigging above." (p. 24    Here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ClgFQ2SwJQ0C&pg=PA24&dq=%22Bully+in+the+Alley%22&lr=&cd=12#v=onepage&q=%22Bully%20in%20the%20Al

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 10:32 AM

The "Californio" business bugs me. Since it appears in the chorus, the implication is that on cue everybody would suddenly remember to switch from the "Mexico" pattern. Not bloody likely, mate.

My guess is that Hunt was either inadvertently mingling two distinct choral patterns or else absent-mindedly made a slip (or an "improvement") influenced by the "Californio" in "Sacramento."

In any case, I suspect that "Californio" entered all recorded post-Lomax versions of "Santy Anna" solely through "Sailor Dad" Hunt.

As for Lloyd & MacColl's source (if there was only one and if they didn't modify the tune slightly on their own), it may well have been Hugill himself. I tentatively suggested something similar in the "Blood-Red Roses" thread.

Long ago I used to assume like many others that Lloyd, MacColl, and others of the better-informed, stylistically conservative revivalists, had access to troves of fabulous traditional texts and tunes that had never been published. Now I know better. I doubt that L & M got anything from an oral source whom they didn't credit by name. In Lloyd's case, as we now know, not even the credited songs can be taken at face value as fully "traditional".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

John-

Maybe you'll have to settle for "Bound to California" which is explicitly a Gold Rush era shanty collected by C. Fox Smith from Capt. J. L. Vivian Millett, who remembered it being sung while he was anchored in Algoa Bay. Of course Capt. Millett only remembered the chorus:

Good-bye, my lads, good-bye,
No one can tell me why
I am bound for California
To reap the shining gold!
Good-bye, my lads, good-bye,
No one can tell me why
I am bound for California
To reap the shining gold!

From A Book of Shanties, by Cicely Fox Smith, Methuen & Co., London, © 1927, pp. 27-29.

Hugill mentions this shanty, in reference to Smith, but was unable to find any verses either.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:17 AM

Thanks, Gibb. This goes a long way in smoothing out some of my rougher edges. My remaining question about this has to do with the version, which seems to have been introduced by Odetta if we go by recording history, that introduces (?) the "Way out in Californio" refrain. This seems to me to be a re-working of the Lomax/Hunt version. Of course, it would make sense historically that with the Gold Rush of 49 following immediately on the heels of the Mexican War, the "Santiana" song would be adapted by the 49'ers. However, it is *my sense* that this adaptation didn't really happen until a 100 years later! Along about 1954 or so. There are two "gold rush" verses in the Lomax/Hunt version. But Odetta & Co. seem to shift the whole song in that direction.

This is really my primary concern with regard to my own project here. I can find no evidence for such a focus on California in the earlier printed versions. Nor is there support in any of Hugill's versions for this shift of perspective. In other words, I don't think I can count this *version* of this song - the "Bound to Californio" version - as a likely candidate for the "Julia Ann".

I think I am moving towards agreement with you about the tunes though. As I begin to more carefully sort out all of the styles and instrumental stuff and particularly the speeds, I think the shapes of the tune pretty much cohere. Your (Hugill's "b") is a very nice exception. Back when I was looking at "whaling chanties" I missed this reference from Hugill. I do remember Colcord referring to "Santiana" being what was sung on "the last whale ship's last voyage" somewhere.

Which reminds me, my sense of the early use of chanties prior to 1850 is that they *were* being used and circulated by the whalers in some form. That seems to have been the primary source for their distribution in the Pacific early on. And yet they don't show up in the whaling journals that I am know about.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 08:33 PM

John,

Sure, I'll throw in 2 cents. Your layout of Santianna re: recorded versions, influences, etc. makes sense to me. Forgive me if I inadvertently overlook some of the fine points in your layout.

The version by Odetta & Co. does seem to be based on some or other version of Sailor Dad that was presented by Lomax. And Lloyd & Co.'s version could easily have come from any of the popular texts -- Colcord, Terry, Doerflinger... -- though they may have learned it directly from the oral tradition, too.

From what I can see, the melodies in most of the texts are all very similar -- similar enough that I would tend to disregard variations. That is, I would view the differences as a reflection of individual, incidental variation, rather than representations of distinguishable variant "streams" of the chantey. And though the Lomax-y version IS appreciably distinct when one examines it, IMHO in the grand scheme of things it looks like just another variation of the "usual" Santiana tune. I must confess that I've forgotten where we might have seen Santianna before (earlier), e.g. in any travelogues.

Although I am aware that the Revival often gives a false sense that a given song was well-known and fairly well "standardized", the ubiquity of Santiana in shanty collections and the similarity between the different texts' versions, suggest that this song really was well established. That is why I would not be surprised if the AL Lloyd generation was able to learn it from authentic oral sources.

That is why, I imagine, Hugill also did not feel the need to cite his sources for his "A" and "C". I am sure his performance renditions were somewhat "tweaked" by the Revival version, but his print may have just come from what seemed to be so obviously "the" common version.

When I recorded Hugill's A/C, I was not being mindful of the possible fine distinctions between melodies. I was doing what a typical revival singer does; I "knew" the tune already from a combination of sources, and I was mostly using Hugill's text as a mine for lyrical ideas. Later, due to my change in methodology (i.e. the goal to represent *some* of the idiosyncrasies of his versions), I was confronted with the task of calling what I'd done either version "A" or version "C" (and then recording the whichever one I had not done!). What I had recorded was neither one precisely. But after examining the tunes of both, along with the tunes in other collections, I decided that I considered them to be only variations of each other which, for me, were not important to distinguish. Well, I *can* distinguish between them, but at the same time, versions on record elsewhere combine bits of both. I would conjecture that versions A and C roughly correspond to print versions Hugill had seen. It's not that he was "copying" them, per se -- but I think he used prior texts as models for his notations, so long as they corroborated what he knew. (Incidentally, version "A" appears to be notated wrong, and one can only get the sense of what Hugill meant by consulting other sources!)

Version "B" is a different story. It is quite appreciably different. It has a fascinating "modal" quality where it seems to begin in one tonal center and end in another. Notably, Hugill does cite his source for that one (a Norwegian whaleman). I don't believe I have heard that tune elsewhere.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

Lighter, the Victory Sings at Sea version on Youtube is close to what I am calling the "older, traditional" version from the printed collections. It is close to that of the Clancy Brothers. (I feel a little bit awkward using the Clancy Brothers and Paul Clayton and A.L. Lloyd, all of whom were folk revival singers, as exemplars of "older" and "more traditional" versions. But it is the tune, along with the California verses that I am trying to distinguish in comparing these versions to the Odetta, KT, Highwaymen, and Weaver's versions.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIcwFKrTus&feature=related

The "Round the Bay of Mexico", while it may be related, especially to the Lomax/Hunt version of "Santy Anno", I think is a different song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06G7WlXZzIc

The "original" Bahamian version of this is beautiful. And Gibb does a pretty good job of capturing that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OilQra0NlRg

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 02:00 PM

Lighter, the chanty I'm identifying as "Santy Anno/Ano" is the one with a chorus, that was recorded by Odetta, the Kingston Trio, the Weavers, The Highwaymen" and other folk revival groups. This is the one that comes from the Lomax/Hunt song that Lomax collected in 1935. What I am calling the "more traditional" one, is the tune that shows up in all of the collections up to Hugill. It does not usually have a chorus, and is a different, more modal tune. I know "modal" is a tricky word.

Basically, I think that on the one hand you have all of the published collections I can find with one tune and a number of revival folk singers and groups (not necessarily chanty-singing groups, but they pick up the revival version) singing this other, faster tune with a chorus. Then you have Hugill publishing something very close to this "new" tune, which I am suggesting he picked up from the revival singers, since he gives no other source and doesn't mention the Lomax/Hunt version.

Gibb combines Hugill's (a) and (c) versions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvBu8soHW78

And now that I listen to it I realize that it doesn't have any chorus. And neither does Hugill's printed version. But if you add a chorus to this version (of especially the "a" tune), you come close to the way that Odetta and the revival singers sing it. Part of it is the speed. On his Mystic CD, Hugill does add the chorus.

Hugill's (b) version, done very nicely by Gibb, is unlike either the "Santy Anno" version of the Hunt/Lomax-revival version or the "traditional" tune found in other collections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxL9oQ7FY1Q&feature=related

Here are Youtubes of Odetta, The Kingston Trio, and The Highwaymen for comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V26i_cHlpgA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuwBGX-FUEE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nW58m3reS4&feature=related

The differences here are more than the addition of instruments. When I say "traditional" I hear Burl Ives version on DOWN TO THE SEA IN SHIPS, if that helps. I couldn't find a Burl Ives Youtube on this. But here is Paul Clayton coming close to the "traditional" tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbCipQUeTWQ&feature=related

And here is A.L.Lloyd's version, followed by that of the Clancy Brothers. I was wrong about the Clancy Brothers' version in my original post on this. They are closer to the older/traditional version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgbWJIUq-_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7dRt2wHoag&feature=related

Now I've probably totally confused the situation. Compare the Clancy Brothers, Odetta, and Gibb's/Hugill's (a&c) versions. I think the Clancys are closer to the older versions from the printed collections; Odetta follows and revises the Lomax/Hunt version; and Hugill is somewhere in between. I am not talking about presentation style or lyrics. I am primarily talking about the tune. And remember, I don't read music! Which is a bit of a handicap in this comparative business.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 11:36 AM

A French rewrite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dxhm9iEfo8&feature=fvw

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM

John, I'm not sure which tunes you mean by "traditional" or the difference between what you're calling "Santianna" and "Santy Ano."

Gibb's YouTube channel might help clarify these. There a couple of others as well.

The rendition behind the anime drawings(yup) on YouTube is performed by Victory Sings at Sea, a northwest U.S. group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIcwFKrTus&feature=related


IIRC, the very popular "Susianna ...Round the Bay of Mexico" version was written by Roger Sprung and Erik Darling based on a tune and text collected by the Lomaxes in the Bahamas

Harry Belafonte's version was composed by Irving Burgie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06G7WlXZzIc

The Kingston Trio also did an ersatz version with ersatz accents on their megahit LP in 1958 - "Santy Anno" (with "Californio") is on the record too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-16OczraVi4

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 08:52 AM

A followup note on the "Santy Anno" song that I discussed above. I've looked again at all of the sources that I have with printed tunes for "Santiana". I don't have access to Davis & Tozer or to Robinson (THE BELLMAN). I cannot find any version of "Santiana" with the more rousing tune and chorus of "Santy Ano" in any collection of chanties before Hugill's SEVEN SEAS (1961). All of the other printed collections have the slow, mournful, modal, minor tune that is "traditionally" associated with this song, and which I would think is more suited for the work for which it was used.

This would make the version collected by John Lomax from J.M. "Sailor Dad" Hunt in 1935 the first time this tune saw print. The song was "in the air" literally by the time Hugill published his book. Where did he get his version? *He does not say.* But apparently he like it because he sings it on his Mystic CD. Since Hugill does not mention the Hunt/Lomax version, I am going to suggest that he may have picked up this tune from the emerging folk revival. I look forward to some further discussion on this.

The "traditional" tune of "Santiana" has always reminded me of the earlier tune for "High Barbary" in the feel of it. I'm not suggesting that the tunes are otherwise related. We do know that the "High Barbary" song was put into a major key and speeded up and supposedly used as a chanty. This seems to have happened in the "American" context much later on in the 19th or early 20th century to "Barbaree". While the "Santy Ano" tune does get speeded up and becomes "juanty" it continues in a more minor key. But, and here I don't know what I am talking about, it seems to have moved from an older "modal" feel to a much, much more modern "minor" feel. The folk revival loved minor keys, and throwing in the odd minor chord to traditional songs. There is also the business of what the use of the guitar did to the old modal melodies. And what happened to a lot of "mountain" songs as they became "bluegrassed" - they were speeded up and moved into a major key. Given the fact that "Santy Ano" was collected in *Marion, VA*, I wonder about all of these possibilities. There, that ought to be a broad enough and open enough take to invite some comment.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:09 PM

I can't find my copy right now, so this is conjecture, but Odetta and others may have gotten "Santa Anna" from Lomax & Lomax's _Folksong U.S.A._ (also published under the title _Best-Loved American Folksongs_).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:29 PM

Gibb, I'm looking forward to that! And when you're ready, I will transfer a slightly modified and cleaned up version of the 1850's collection over to your thread. I've been waiting for you to say you are ready to move on to that decade.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:26 PM

John,
Thanks for digging up all these 1850s references of late!

My question is this. If "Stormalong" gets mentioned as often as it does, why not some of these other songs? There were a lot of people sailing on those packet ships. Did these chanties not really evolve until a bit later?   In any case, I cannot with any confidence place them in San Francisco in the 1850's

I am fascinated by this. This and the "other" thread are beginning to converge at a time point. I am a little surprised by how few chanties can be ascribed to pre-Gold Rush times...though of course I still hold onto the idea that they were around despite lack of documentation!

Hopefully soon I'll get a chance to sort the references up the California Gold Rush, with an eye towards saying, "Look: here is the repertoire of chanties that we know (reasonably) to have existed then."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:23 PM

It would seem that there is an obvious choice for a chanty that might have been sung on the "Julia Ann" in the 1850's, which is "Santy Anno". It's one of the first ones that stuck in my mind, from the singing of the Kingston Trio, and then Odetta, and the Weavers, and the Clancy Brothers. Here is Odetta's version from 1954:

We're sailin' 'cross the river from Liverpool,
Heave away, Santy Anno.
Around Cap Horn to 'Frisco Bay,
'Way out in Californio.

Chorus:

So, heave her up and away we'll go.
Heave away, Santy Anno.
Heave her up and away we'll go.
'Way out in Californio.

There's plenty of gold, so I've been told.
Heave away, Santy Anno.
Plenty of gold so I've been told.
'Way out in Californio.

Chorus

Well, back in the days of forty-nine.
Heave away, Santy Anno.
Back in the days of the good old times.
'Way out in Californio.

This is a version from the "Santiana" family. As near as I can tell, Odetta was the first to record it as such. The Weavers added a few verses and registered their copyright for it on February 6, 1958. And about two months later, Dave Guard of the Kingston Trio registered his copyright for it on April 28, 1958. There is very little difference between these three versions. However, it is not clear how they are related. Odetta kept releasing and re-recording this song on her subsequent albums. The Clancy Brothers, and later Liam Clancy, seem to have taken the same tune but gotten their verses from A. L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl. In all of its various manifestations, this was a lively and popular song during the folk revival.

I looked carefully at all of the threads that I can find on Mudcat about this song. For some reason they seem to have missed what I think is perhaps the main source for it. Stan Hugill, in his SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, published in 1961, gives both the tune and a long list of verses for this chanty as his "(a)" version on pp. 82-83. But interestingly enough, his verses are not the same as those recorded by Odetta, the KT, or the Weavers. Nor do you find overlaps with Hugill's other two versions.

This makes some sense when one compares the dates, since Hugill's very influential book was not published yet when Odetta, the KT and the Weavers recorded their versions. So the question is, where did they get their version and why doesn't Hugill note it? Hugill's verses do tend to begin to show up in subsequently recorded versions after the publication of his book. But these earlier revival versions left a strong imprint.

I think that these earlier revival versions - and by the way, the more "traditional" version of "Santiana" was alive and well during the revival as well, being recorded by folks like Burl Ives and Paul Clayton - were based almost entirely on a song collected by John Lomax from a J.M. Hunt ("Sailor Dad") of Marion, Virginia, in 1935. Lomax published this first (as far as I know) in his OUR SINGING COUNTRY, in 1941, on page 206-207, found here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=i_J4Ii9oArsC&pg=PA206&dq=%22Santy+Anno%22&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Santy%20Anno%22&f=false

The Lomax/Hunt version is almost word for word the same as that of Odetta, the KT, and the Weavers. But, with one major exception. Hunt gives the final refrain in each verse and the chorus as the more traditional "All on the plains of Mexico," except for his third verse where he gives "Way out West to Californio". By comparing Hunt and Odetta, one can see that in Odetta's version, the final refrain in all of the verses and the chorus has become "Way out in Californio".   This is picked up verbatim by the Kingston Trio in their version. The Weavers use "We're bound for Californio", that elusive refrain that has sort of haunted this thread for some time! They could have adopted this from the "Codfish Chanty". The Clancy version reverts back to "All on the plains of Mexico".

So who was responsible for this significant change? And why wasn't Hunt/Lomax ever credited with this version? Well, this was the time of "Tom Dooley". It was also the time when Fred Hellerman, of the Weavers, was doing quite a bit of creative re-writing of traditional songs. But Odetta had already recorded it at least twice before the Weavers and the KT got around to it.

The notes from Odetta's 1954 "The Tin Angel" for "Santy Ano" are totally enigmatic. She recorded it again in 1956 for "Sings Ballads and Blues" and there are no notes. Again in 1963, she released it on her "Odetta At Town Hall" album. Finally there are some notes but they are very general and refer vaguely to the more "traditional Santiana".

I don't know what the Kingston Trio had to say about this song. It does not show up in the Weavers' songbook and I don't know what they had to say about it. John and Alan Lomax republish Hunt's song in their FOLK SONG U.S.A. in 1947. They have added a few verses without any attribution of sources and their introductory notes are not helpful.

Apparently, in his ADVENTURES OF A BALLAD HUNTER, John Lomax discusses "Sailor Dad" Hunt, (see snippet here):

http://books.google.com/books?id=lu8NAAAAIAAJ&q=J.M.+Hunt+(%22Sailor+Dad%22)&dq=J.M.+Hunt+(%22Sailor+Dad%22)&lr=&cd=3

Unfortunately, I do not have access to that book at the moment. It would be interesting to know if he says anything about where Hunt got his songs, especially this one. I have been unable to find any documentation for this version of "Santiana" anywhere else prior to 1935. The Caribbean chanty "Round the Bay of Mexico" may be related, but seems to be a different song.   

For now, I don't think this song is very old at all. I'll be interested to see if anyone can find out any more information on it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM

John-

Don't it always seem to go: "One Step forward, two steps back!"

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 09:32 AM

A "critical" followup (in the best sense of the word!) on the previous post from Lighter, over in the "Advent & Development" thread. So, we can't use this reference to "A Hundred Years Ago". Too bad.

thread.cfm?threadid=128220&messages=155#2887167

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:16 AM

Here is a link to the "Advent & Development" thread where I posted a reference to "A Hundred Years Ago" noted in a journal from 1848 on board the barque "Agincourt" bound to South Australia from London:

thread.cfm?threadid=128220&messages=147#2886283

This would put this song in Australia prior to the arrival of the "Julia Ann" in 1853.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 05:29 PM

I made it into the library today and was able to check out the reference to "Shenandoah" in the WPA ex-slave narratives. It is pretty interesting. First of all, here is the reference information: THE AMERICAN SLAVE: A COMPOSITE AUTOBIOGRAPHY, Supplement, Series 2, Volume 8, Texas Narratives, Part 7, George P. Rawick, General Editor, p3153. This was taken down by a Miss Effie Cowan, McLennan County, Texas, in 1937, from a Mr. Allen Price, R.F.D. Mart, Texas. The synopsis says:

        "This story of a slave born during the war [Civil War] tells of the history handed down by his Master, one of the decendents (sic) of General Price of the Confederate Army, dates back to the emigration of the Price family from Virginia to Missouri when the pioneers were forcing their way against almost insurmountable hardships to the new state of Missouri." (p. 3149)

Mr. Price begins:

        "I wuz born in Fannin County Texas in a covered wagon, in 1862, when my parents wuz on dey way wid their Master's, John an Jim Price from Misourri ter Texas ter make their home." (p. 3149)

Mr. Price tells the story of the immigrants going across the Mississippi River on a steamboat and being attacked by Indians. He is passing on the stories that he has been told, since he hadn't been born yet. He says some of the group stopped in St. Louis, and some went on to Kansas City, and some went up the Missouri River, and some went out across Missouri on what he thinks was the Santa Fe Trail. His parents would have been in this last group. Then he interrupts his story to make this comment:

        "In de early days dey had de river boat songs, but dey has been changed until dey are de ones dat wuz sun w'en de rebels an' de Yankees fought but dey cum down from de song's of de early days, one went like dis,

        "I'm drinkin of rum an chawin terbacco,
        Hi! Oh! the rollin' river,
        I'm drinkin of rum an chawin terbacco,
        H! Ha! I'm bound away fer de wild Miz-zou-rye.

and another dat goes like dis, jes a little different,

        "Missouri she's a mighty river,
        Away-ay, you rollin' river,
        De Indians camp along hits borders,
        Ha! Ha! I'm bound away across de wide Missouri." (p. 3153)

Mr. Price goes on from there to talk about the involvement of the "Master's" family in the Civil War, and also that of his father. There is no further mention of these songs.

Now, the next to last verse in the "Old Cavalry Song" given by Major Isaac Spalding, to John Lomax and found in Lomax's AMERICAN BALLADS AND FOLK SONGS, (1934), on pp. 543-546, is exactly the same as the first version from Mr. Price. The only difference is that "terbacco" is "tobacco", and "fer de wild" is "for the wild". (p. 546)

But what is really weird, and I mentioned this earlier in the thread when I was looking at this is that the second version that Mr. Price gives, matches exactly the first verse of Lomax's second version of "Shenandoah", which follows immediately upon his "Calvary" version. Again, the only changes are to make "de" into "the", and "hits" into "its". And, "Ha! Ha! I'm bound away across" becomes "Aha, I'm bound away, 'Cross..." (p. 546)

For me, this is still just too much of a coincidence. Lomax's book was available after 1934. The WPA account was recorded in 1937. Lomax gives two complete songs. The "Cavalry" version has nine verses! And the other version, which he says was sent to him by "Captain A.E. Dingle, Cove Cottage, West Bermuda," has seven verses. Mr. Price, by his own account, is very interested in history. His mention of these two songs is an aside in his narrative. I would have to suppose that he had seen Lomax's book.

I really don't want to come to that conclusion, because the alternative would be that we have an ex-slave born in the early 1860's who has received the stories of his family's move to the frontier and is accurately recalling the use of a version of "Shenandoah" as a river song, prior to the Civil War. I'm not suggesting that his historical recollections are faulty. But he may have added to them. It's a bit of a mystery, and we no longer have either Mr. Price or Mr. Lomax, or Major Spalding or Captain Dingle to consult on these matters.

Here is the link to my original post on this subject:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=526#2877977

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 12:37 PM

For the chanties from the 1850's, I need to add this one (again), from Gibb. It is in CALIFORNIA AND OREGON, OR, SIGHTS IN THE GOLD REGION, AND SCENES BY THE WAY, by Theodore Taylor Johnson & Samuel Royal Thurston (1850). It contains a verse from "A Hundred Years Ago", dated Sunday morning, 25th of March, probably 1849, departing San Blas. Here is Gibb's post, followed by the link:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=526#2866916

http://books.google.com/books?id=6G9HAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA88&dq=%22The+Oregons+a+jolly+crew,+O,+yes,+O!&lr==3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:56 PM

Snuffy-

Good work. I certainly agree with you.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:09 PM

Charlie,

Tally-i-o (or Tally-aye-o) is definitely not a mishearing of a Hilo song.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:29 AM

In the following post, I listed the so-called "Western Packet" or "Blackball Line" chanties mentioned in Hugill. I said:

"While there is no written documentation from that period that I have been able to find with regard to the shanties sung on board the packet ships, there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that come from that era."

and,

"I am assuming that all of these songs, in one version or another, would have been current in New York and other eastern ports in the late 1840's and would have found their way to California during the Gold Rush of 1849, and thus would have been available in San Francisco to sail on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages to Sydney in 1853-1855. "

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=515#2838469

While the first statement continues to be the case, I can no longer maintain my second assumption. While we've been able to document songs like "Stormalong" and "Whiskey Johnny" in the 1850's, along with "Poor Paddy Works On the Railway", I have not been able to find any references to these other songs prior to the 1860's. That is strange to me, since the height of the Western Packet trade peaked perhaps in the 1850s. And just because they are not mentioned doesn't mean they weren't around. However, their popularity certainly seems to have been later, even after the packet lines met their demise or were replaced by the steamers.

My question is this. If "Stormalong" gets mentioned as often as it does, why not some of these other songs? There were a lot of people sailing on those packet ships. Did these chanties not really evolve until a bit later?   In any case, I cannot with any confidence place them in San Francisco in the 1850's.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:18 AM

I like the "Ringgold" theory, Gibb. It provides some balance for old "Santyanna"! Here are two more references from the 1850's. First of all a "Sally Brown" from Hercules Robinson's SEA DRIFT, from 1858:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Ku40z-xkYkC&pg=PA221&dq=%22Oh+Sally+Brown,+Sally+Brown+Oh%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Oh%20Sally%20

And then a reference from Solomon Northup's TWELVE YEARS A SLAVE, 1855, perhaps talking about events in 1853 or earlier. He mentions some fiddle tunes and "patting juba" songs, among which are "Old Hog Eye!" and "Jim Along, Josie."

http://books.google.com/books?id=kTaJH3W2trEC&pg=PA220&dq=%22Old+Hog+Eye%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Old%20Hog%20Eye%22&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:33 AM

FYI a new, funky speculation about "maringo": Ringgold

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 08:19 PM

I wonder if ""Tally hi o you know" is a mishearing of one of the Hilo/Ilo shanties?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 05:30 PM

Thanks, Lighter. I was looking for that kind of clue but couldn't find it. Too bad. Was there an HMS Resolute and was there such an expedition?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:12 PM

Page 186 of Matthews 2007 says, "This is a work of historical fiction."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 12:04 PM

I have been trying to push as many of these chanties as possible back into the 1850's. The results *so far* are meagre, but here they are for the record. Not all of these references are to actual chanties. But there may be a connection.

From Arthur Hamilton Clark's THE CLIPPER SHIP ERA, we have a reconstructed day from 1849 where he gives the following chanties: "Poor Paddy works on the railway," "Paddy Doyle's boots," "Whiskey, Johnny," "Lowlands", and a version of "Blow Boys, Blow" called "Hah, hah, rolling John". This may be more later memory than historical recollection.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HVYuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA116&dq=%22a+ringing+chanty+that+can+be+heard+up+in+Beaver+Street&cd=1#v=onepa

From SHE WAS A SISTER SAILOR: THE WHALING JOURNALS OF MARY BREWSTER, 1845-1851, there is a reference (from a snippet) to "Tally hi o you know". I can't tell what the year is from this but someone probably has this book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_rBiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Tally+Hi+O%22&dq=%22Tally+Hi+O%22&cd=7

From an article entitled "News From Our Digger" an account from 1852, in TAIT'S EDINBURGH MAGAZINE, VOLUME 19, we have reference to "Cheerymen" and "Storm along, my Stormy".

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qt4_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA294&dq=%22Polly+Racket,+hi-ho,+cheerymen.%22&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Polly%20

From Elizabeth Matthews' account of the HMS RESOLUTE (2007), we have mention of "Boney was a warrior" and "Haul away, Joe" from June of 1852. It's not clear whether this is fiction or not.

http://books.google.com/books?id=14SgeA7mgv4C&pg=PA39&dq=%22Haul+Away,+Joe%22&lr==46#v=onepage&q=%22Haul%20Away%2C%20Joe%22&f

From a story called "The Boy of Chickamauga" by Edmund Kirke, in OUR YOUNG FOLKS, VOL. 1, there is a line supposedly from 1853 that may refer to "Clear the track, let the bullgine run."

http://books.google.com/books?id=rJVHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA703&dq=%22Clear+the+track+and+let+the+bullgine+run%22&lr=&cd=39#v=onepage&q&f

We have three minstrel songs from Christy and White's ETHIOPIAN MELODIES, 1854. Various versions and editions and sections of this were published here and there at other times, and there may be some earlier publication dates out there. We have "Storm along, Stormy":

http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ZCAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA71&dq=%22Storm+Along+Stormy%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Storm%20Along%20Stormy

And then there is "Fire Down Below":

http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ZCAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA18&dq=%22Fire+Down+Below%22+Christy&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

And finally, "Whoop, Jamboree":

http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ZCAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA17&dq=%22Whoop,+Jam-bo-ree%22&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Whoop%2C%20Jam-bo-r

From MELBOURNE, AND THE CHINCHA ISLANDS, by George Washington Peck, we have a reference from 1854 to "Haul the bowline" and four different melodies without words.

http://books.google.com/books?id=c_oOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA292&dq=%22Haul+the+bowline%22+Melbourne&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

From a story by Edgar S. Farnsworth called "The Yarn of the Watch" in BALLOU'S MONTHLY MAGAZINE, VOL. 2, 1855, we have "Storm along, Stormy":

http://books.google.com/books?id=ta1MAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA114&dq=Storm+along+Stormy&lr=&cd=55#v=onepage&q=Storm%20along%20Stormy&f=fals

From Charles Dickens' HOUSEHOLD WORDS, 1855-56, we have what may be a reference to "Drunken Sailor":

http://books.google.com/books?id=7wwHAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=what+shall+we+do+with+a+drunken+sailor&lr=&as_brr=1&cd=14#v=onepage&q=

From John Stirling Fisher's A BUILDER OF THE WEST, we have "Storm Along," "All on the Plains of Mexico", and "Aha, we're bound away, on the wild Missouri", from the memoirs of General William Jackson Palmer, in 1856:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_OXRs_WmAY4C&pg=PA49&dq=%22Mister+Storm+roll+on%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Mister%20Storm%20roll%20

From THE KNICKERBOCKER, VOLUME 54, we have an article entitled "The Life of a Midshipman", 1857, with "Row, bullies, row!"

http://books.google.com/books?id=ybXPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA11&dq=%22O+Shenandoh+my+bully+boy%22&lr=&cd=10#v=onepage&q&f=false

From THE MERCANTILE MARINE, by E. Keble Chatterton, we have a quote from Sir William B. Forwood's REMINISCENCES OF A LIVERPOOL SHIPOWNER, 1857, which mentions "Paddy works upon the railway" and "Whiskey, Johnny."

http://books.google.com/books?id=3qCr7nTPvewC&pg=PA159&dq=Whiskey+Johnny&lr=&cd=95#v=onepage&q=Whiskey%20Johnny&f=false

From THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, Vol. II, 1858, we have "Pay me the money down!", "O long storm, storm along stormy", and "Highland day and off she goes":

http://books.google.com/books?id=MbEGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA154&dq=%22O+Long+Storm,+storm+along.%22&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22O%20Long%20St

From an article in the OBERLIN STUDENT'S MONTHLY, VOL 1, Issue 1, from 1858, we have mention of "We're a bully ship and a bully crew", "O! haulee, heigho, cheeryman!" and "Storm along, my stormies". There is also mention of "Jim along, Josey" as a rowing song.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow3cAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA47&dq=Storm+along+Stormy&lr=&cd=76#v=onepage&q=Storm%20along%20Stormy&f=false

From THE REAL EXPERIENCES OF AN EMIGRANT, by Ward, Lock, & Tyler, we have a reference to "Whiskey for Johnny!" that may be from 1859:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tHkFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA39&dq=Whiskey+Johnny&lr=&cd=160#v=onepage&q=Whiskey%20Johnny&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:37 PM

John-

Seems as if you've narrowed down the date to the 1860's.

It's amazing what one can find doing research at home nowadays.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM

Here is some information that may help date the chanties in ON BOARD THE ROCKET, by Robert C. Adams. This letter suggests that it was 1868. Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JVosAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA9-PA7&dq=%22Capt.+Robert+C.+Adams%22&lr=&cd=20#v=onepage&q=%22Rocket%22&f=fal

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 08:58 AM

John-

Fore and Aft is certainly another interesting find with its stevedore shanties collected in Mexico.

I hadn't run across that version of "Coal Black Rose" which reminds me of a version of "Hog-Eye Man" that the Boarding Party recorded:

From Fore and Aft: A Story of Actual Sea Life By Robert Brewer Dixon, p. 128

Described as a "pulling song" for loading mahogany logs aboard ship near Vera Cruz, Mexico, up the Coatzacoalcos River to Minatilan:

Oh, Ro-sa in the garden, hang-ing out clothes,
Stand be-low, you coal black Rose!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 07:57 AM

Here is another one of those very interesting references in which the events are not dated. My sense is that this is from the 1870s. The book is FORE AND AFT: A STORY OF ACTUAL SEA LIFE, by Robert Brewer Dixon, in which he describes a voyage from New York to Vera Cruz, Mexico, on the "brig Elizabeth." The book was published in 1883. I have tried to locate information on the brig "Elizabeth", but there apparently were several of them dating back to the time of the American Revolution. I couldn't pin it down. The same was true with "Captain Bradley". There was a Robert Brewer Dixon who became a prominent physician in boston. He studied for his MD at Harvard from 1876-79. It is likely that this is the same person, in which case, these events at sea probably happened prior to his time at Harvard. He mentions in his first chapter that he has been at school at "Chauncy-hall School, Boston, and was at home on my summer vacation..." (p.2)

There is an interesting discussion of "stevedores" in this book in chapters IX and X. And in chapter X, Dixon gives us some "sailor songs," that are being used for stowing timber. They include, with music, "Haul the Bowline", "Coal Black Rose", and "Shanandore". So, here we have an example of one of the "Shenandoah" versions being used for loading by stevedores. What is also interesting is that Dixon mentions "Shanandore" at least two other times. On page 11, the crew is singing it as a windless chanty, as they are bringing up the anchor (I think). And on page 297, it is being used as a halyards chanty.

The verse given, on page 129, for the loading is

   For seven long years I courted Sally.
   Hurrah, you rollin' river!
   I courted Sally down in yon valley.
   Ah, ha! I'm bound away on the wild Missouri.

Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=atvSkDe26l8C&pg=RA1-PA127&dq=stevedore+songs&lr=&cd=29#v=onepage&q=%22Shanandore%22&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:49 AM

I found the reference in the days before Google Books and didn't realize that MacGahan had published a description of it himself! Good work.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:08 AM

John and Lighter-

That is certainly a wonderful description, by MacGahan on board the Pandora, of raising the anchor, from the points of view of the anchor buried in the mud and the capstan crew hard at work i50 feet above.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:06 AM

Lighter, I think you are right about the "1854" business in that bibliography. That solves one mystery. I still want to take a look at it and see what the relationship may be between this WPA ex-slave narrative and the Lomaxes.

That's a wonderful account the "O Shanadoa". Of course that's the one spelling I didn't try! Here's the link I found:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NC4mAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA213&dq=%22Oh,+Shanadoa,+I+longs+to+hear+you.&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Oh%2C%20Shan

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 08:53 PM

Lighter, thanks for that new reference. I had not come across that one. And, Gibb, thanks for your comment on Bullen. I remember that you said something to that effect on your YouTube of Bullen's song, which is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1be-0VjCtxE

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 11:25 AM

FWIW, the version of "Shenandoh" in Bullen is a completely different "framework" than what one usually means in referencing that title. Its only similarity is the use of that name which, as we've seen (e.g. "Sally Brown") says little more than that "Shenandoah" was a popular, general lyrical theme. What I mean to say is, the cargo loading function of Bullen's isn't necessarily significant.