BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:19 PM

There ain't too much left to say after listening to Wafa Sultan.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:17 PM

I'm listening to that lady who was linked to by the Guest (let the women rule, etc), and she nails it in one. Brilliant gal. I hope others listen to it and maybe internalizes what this gal is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:16 PM

The Christian Palestinians are suffering just as much because of the occupation as the Muslim Palestinians are, GUEST 18 May 08 - 05:05 PM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QHzuYcuIQY&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:14 PM

Have I ever condemned then on a thread here - no I don't think so.

But then I only joined this thread recently against my better judgement as I know that my opinions will not endear me to some people who I also respect.

However may I rectify that here and now and put it in writing that I do not support any Holocaust denial from whatever quarter it comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:09 PM

"Show me where I have defended Hamas except to ackmowledge them as the democratically elected government."

Don't pull a CarolC. I have never said you defended Hamas or Hezbollah. The question I asked is have you ever condemned them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:06 PM

Tel Aviv (dpa) - In Israel, the number of emigrants exceeded the number of immigrants for the first time in 20 years, the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot reported Friday 04/20/2007

Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said.

Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,let the jewish & arab women rule in middle e
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:05 PM

One of the bravest women in the Middle East, indeed, the world.

Wafa Sultan talking to Tovia on Israel National Radio

This is the TV interview that sparked off the Radio interview above.


Wafa Sultan Speaks Out

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:02 PM

may I repeat a quote made a little ealier....

'Just as Israel's bombing of Lebanon last summer failed to compel Lebanese to turn against Hizbullah,

'... this crushing of Gaza will continue to bolster Hamas's support as well as those who will make Hamas seem like the good guys'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Actually, Hezbollah will disappear after Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders and releases the ten thousand or so Palestinians and Lebanese who have been languishing in Israeli prisons for years with no trial, no convictions, and no access to any kind of justice at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

Hezbollah and Hamas will disappear after Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders. So a vote to end the occupation is also a vote to end Hezbollah and Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:53 PM

Peace - yes!

Show me where I have defended Hamas except to ackmowledge them as the democratically elected government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:51 PM

"Yes, no-one had the right to create a new Jewish homeland on the land of other people."

If you are addressing pre-1967 borders, I could agree with you. Is that what you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:50 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

I don't doubt you mean what you say, Emma, nor do I doubt your integrity. Does it also extend to admonitions against Hezbollah and Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:50 PM

Yes, no-one had the right to create a new Jewish homeland on the land of other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:47 PM

I am telling no one what to say. I stated a position. You then said, in your usual manner, that I support ethnic cleansing and apartheid, which I don't. You attack me and you get it back.

In your usual manner of practicing bullying smear tactics to silence those who are working for human rights for Palestinians, you are characterizing them as being people who hate Israel and also in other threads, people who hate Jews. This is a lie and a libel.

You support Hezbollah and Hamas.

This is also a lie. You know as well as I do that even right here in this thread, I have said that Hamas has policies that are impossible to defend. I don't support any terrorist actions on the part of Hezbollah, but anything they do that is only for the purpose of keeping Israel from reoccupying Lebanon, I do support. So your "fuck you" is as much hot air as your libelous accusations that people who work for human rights for Palestinians are Israel haters and Jew haters.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:41 PM

The Zionists on Mudcat really don't like being told the truth about the situation in Israel/Palestine, hence the abusive language and the growing hysteria.
Its a bit like that in Israel where internal scandal after scandal and the daily resistance of the Palestinians is having a big effect on the Israeli leadership.They can't see a way out that doesn't involve more ethnic cleansing and oppression.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Peace, I dislike intensly what the American government has done but appreciate that it has also been against the wishes of many good Americans and dear friends.

I have spoken out and demonstrated against the decisions of my own government in the illegal invasion of Iraq.

I was an active member of the Anti-Apartheid organization, as were many white South Africans.

I have posted statements by dissenters within the Israeli state as opposed as I am to the inhumanity of Gaza.

Shalom
'Em'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:31 PM

I am telling no one what to say. I stated a position. You then said, in your usual manner, that I support ethnic cleansing and apartheid, which I don't. You attack me and you get it back.

You support Hezbollah and Hamas. Does that mean I should think you support the ethnic cleansing of Jews? I don't believe that of you nor would I say it. The 'fuck you' stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:30 PM

''Israel is NOT supported by the majority of the world's Jewish people."

A quick calculation (by me) suggests that, for that statement to be true, that at least 85% of the Jews living outside of Israel do not want that state to exist. Either that, or many Jewish citizens living within Israel want their own country to be dissolved.

Emma B: you are a nut case.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:26 PM

I don't, and fuck you for saying that.

And yet you think you are entitled to tell others what they feel and believe (telling them that they hate Israel and in other threads, that they hate Jews).

You are no more in a position to tell others what is in their hearts then they are to tell you what is in yours. If you don't like taking it, stop dishing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:20 PM

'For my mother and father, Judaism meant bearing witness, raging against injustice and foregoing silence.

It meant compassion, tolerance and rescue.

These were the ultimate Jewish values'

Sarah Roy, daughter of Holocaust survivors

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:18 PM

"You can support ethnic cleansing and apartheid if you want,"

I don't, and fuck you for saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:14 PM

'Contrary to the propaganda put out by Israel's supporters, Israel is NOT supported by the majority of the world's Jewish people. Ariel Sharon does not speak for all Jewish people. And being anti-Israel is not "anti-Semitic"'

Jews against Zionism

'There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in'
Leonard Cohen

I have Jewish ancestry and I'm not leaving this debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:48 PM

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary is not an historical text.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:37 PM

If some Jewish Mudcatters feel a need to leave because there are people in the Mudcat who believe that Palestinians are human being, too, then it is their own personal failings that are causing them to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:33 PM

You keep characterizing it as hatred for Israel. That's total bullshit, designed to malign and smear people who are fighting for human rights for Palestinians, in an effort to try to silence them. One doesn't have to hate Israel in order to try to stop if from doing what it's doing to people, any more than one had to hate the United States to try to stop it from practicing slavery, or its own version of apartheid in the past. Racism is racism, regardless of who is practicing it, or whom they are practicing it on.

Israel did start the 1967 war, and the reason it is of the utmost importance to bring this to the awareness of people is because Israel is using its fiction about '67 being for them a defensive war in order to say that they were legally entitled to take land by conquest. As long as Israel is allowed to provoke wars with its neighbors and then take their land by conquest, there will never be peace in the region, and there will never be peace for the Israelis.

The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is ongoing, as is the ethnic cleansing of the non-Jewish Israeli Arabs. This situation, and the denial of any kind of rights basic or otherwise for the Palestinians, is going to have to be corrected before anything else takes place. The ethnic cleansing, begun before Israel declared its independence, is the precipitating event. And every war of conquest that Israel has conducted since then has only served to make the problem worse. The government of Israel has not abandoned its plans to increase its territory far beyond what it is even today. There will be no hope for peace in the region (or in much of the rest of the world) until this stops.

All of the governments of the countries in the Middle East have said that they will recognize Israel's right to live in peace and security if Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. And they have international law and the UN charter to back them up in this stance.

You can support ethnic cleansing and apartheid if you want, but that will hardly put you in a position to point fingers at others about hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:16 PM

One more thing, and then I am off this thread. If the intent has been to drive some Jewish mudcatters away, it worked. Some have left.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:16 PM

"philistines - Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary :

(Gen. 10:14, R.V.; but in A.V., "Philistim"), a tribe allied to
the Phoenicians. They were a branch of the primitive race which
spread over the whole district of the Lebanon and the valley of
the Jordan, and Crete and other Mediterranean islands. Some
suppose them to have been a branch of the Rephaim (2 Sam.
21:16-22). In the time of Abraham they inhabited the south-west
of Judea, Abimelech of Gerar being their king (Gen. 21:32, 34;
26:1). They are, however, not noticed among the Canaanitish
tribes mentioned in the Pentateuch. They are spoken of by Amos
(9:7) and Jeremiah (47:4) as from Caphtor, i.e., probably Crete,
or, as some think, the Delta of Egypt. In the whole record from
Exodus to Samuel they are represented as inhabiting the tract of
country which lay between Judea and Egypt (Ex. 13:17; 15:14, 15;
Josh. 13:3; 1 Sam. 4).

    This powerful tribe made frequent incursions against the
Hebrews. There was almost perpetual war between them. They
sometimes held the tribes, especially the southern tribes, in
degrading servitude (Judg. 15:11; 1 Sam. 13:19-22); at other
times they were defeated with great slaughter (1 Sam. 14:1-47;
17). These hostilities did not cease till the time of Hezekiah
(2 Kings 18:8), when they were entirely subdued. They still,
however, occupied their territory, and always showed their old
hatred to Israel (Ezek. 25:15-17). They were finally conquered
by the Romans.

    The Philistines are called Pulsata or Pulista on the Egyptian
monuments; the land of the Philistines (Philistia) being termed
Palastu and Pilista in the Assyrian inscriptions. They occupied
the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, in
the south-western corner of Canaan, which belonged to Egypt up
to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty. The occupation
took place during the reign of Rameses III. of the Twentieth
Dynasty. The Philistines had formed part of the great naval
confederacy which attacked Egypt, but were eventually repulsed
by that Pharaoh, who, however, could not dislodge them from
their settlements in Palestine. As they did not enter Palestine
till the time of the Exodus, the use of the name Philistines in
Gen. 26:1 must be proleptic. Indeed the country was properly
Gerar, as in ch. 20.

    They are called Allophyli, "foreigners," in the Septuagint,
and in the Books of Samuel they are spoken of as uncircumcised.
It would therefore appear that they were not of the Semitic
race, though after their establishment in Canaan they adopted
the Semitic language of the country. We learn from the Old
Testament that they came from Caphtor, usually supposed to be
Crete. From Philistia the name of the land of the Philistines
came to be extended to the whole of "Palestine." Many scholars
identify the Philistines with the Pelethites of 2 Sam. 8:18."
 

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:11 PM

There needs to be a homeland for Palestinians. There also is a homeland for Jews. The various Arab neighbours need to fuck off because they have done nothing to help. And in fact, the US needs to fuck off, too. HOWEVER, unless the only security Israel can have is the possession of nuclear weapons and the will to use them, then there is NO percentage in Israel agreeing to anything in the Middle East. As long as people continue to say crap like 'Israel started the 1967 war', there will be no agreement. Not here, not there.

Arab and Muslim governments--spokesmen for those governments or Hezbollah-type groups--have said things like 'anhilation of Israel', 'wipe it from the map', and other rhetoric which boils down to killing 5,000,000 Israelis. To say that that is not what they meant is simply bullshit.

If the only way people here can see a resolution to the problem as being Israel doing all the given, the problem will not get resolved.

I have yet to see the same vehement hatred that is directed at Israel being directed at Hezbollah or Hamas. When it is, it is couched in terms such that "well, if the Israelis hadn't done such-and-such, then these groups wouldn't have been necessary", and that is just justification for psychopaths to continue killing civilians, and when Israeli civilians get killed by rockets or suicide bombers, guess what? They respond. And guess what else? As long as this sort of rhetorical crap is perpetuated, there will be NO peace in the Middle East because there is not one good reason for Israel to pursue peace. To the Palestinians it is about a homeland. To the Israelis, it is about survival. Jews ahve been left to the mercy of countries before: Poland, Ukraine, France, etc. They were slaughtered. Denmark refused to play the game. Danish Jews were saved.

So while you folks get all teary-eyed about displaced people, save some of those tears for the other displaced people. And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian humans, I will contine to read your posts with disdain, and there will be no common ground here, either.

I respect that you have views. Respect that they are not the only views.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:53 PM

This video is also worth watching for a better understanding of what life is like for Palestinians under Israeli military occupation. It was made a few years ago, but the checkpoint situation has not improved for them since then...

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Part Four

Part Five

Part Six

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:24 PM

Much has been said on mudcat about the situation in Ireland.

'Imagine if, after an IRA bombing, a British prime minister declared Catholic areas in Northern Ireland to be hostile territory, and threatened to reduce or cut off goods, water, fuel and electricity supplies.'

'Collective starvation is being used as a political tool of pressure. One Israeli official admitted: "It is meant to be used as leverage on the civilian population, to pressure the Hamas regime over the Qassam fire."

'The World Food Programme lists it as a global hunger hotspot. Out of its 1.5 million residents, 1.1 million have to survive on food handouts. The Israeli journalist, Amira Hass, describes Gazans as being imprisoned in "an enclosed space like battery hens".'

'British government ministers condemn boycotts of Israel, but cannot even muster a word of condemnation of Israeli practices that actually endanger hundreds of thousands of lives. The hypocrisy is not lost on millions of Arabs and Muslims.'

'... this crushing of Gaza will continue to bolster Hamas's support as well as those who will make Hamas seem like the good guys'

From Life behind the wire by Chris Doyle director of the Council for Arab-British Understanding.

Greater 'understanding' is needed urgently

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:08 PM

This is how we do it - right here. By raising awareness of the problem.

These guys (who, in my opinion, are some of the biggest heroes in the world right now) are saying, and I believe they are one hundred percent right about this, that the way to do it is to continue to speak out and continue to raise awareness about this, until the public outcry is too great to be ignored any longer. These two former members of the Israeli military are saying that this situation is driven by public opinion in the United States and Israel. They believe that most people in both countries would not stand for what is going on if they knew the truth of what is being done to the Palestinians. When public opinion in the US against apartheid is too strong to ignore any longer, that's when the leaders of both the US and Israel will be forced to correct the problem. Until then, nothing will be done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:47 PM

BUT!
leaving aside who DID what and to who where do we go from here?

There is hope from within from movements like Ta'ayush ("living together"), an Israeli-Palestinian grassroots movement against Israeli military occupation of Palestinian land.

Prof. Gadi Algazi, a co founder of the movement (who spent 10 months in a military prison before he was released as a result of public outcry) has observed the Israeli tower-and-stockade surveillance is strangling Palestinians living in the so-called "Seam Zone." This is the confiscated area between the Israeli side of the wall and the Green Line.

He points out that most of the 12,000 Palestinians living in this no-man's-land are 1948 refugees and their descendants, who have no access to schools, clinics or markets. They must apply for permission to remain in their unrecognized villages, which receive no electricity or water.

"The apartheid system thrives on details," he stressed. "Exhaustive forms must be filled out by everyone over age 12. They ask such intrusive questions as what do you study, who is your teacher, why do you want to sleep in your village?"

"The Wall has created the world's largest open air prison without guards," Algazi noted.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, April 2004,

Three times the height of the Berlin Wall and proposed to run the eqivalent of london to Zurich!

meanwhile..... Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has stated

I will not agree to accept any kind of Israeli responsibility for the refugees. Full stop."
Then he added: "I don't think we should accept any kind of responsibility for the creation of this problem. Full stop."

He said the return of even one Palestinian refugee to Israel was "out of the question."

quoted in 2007

How to reconcile the irreconcilable - where to start.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:50 PM

WE know nothing of the kind- did you even look at the citations I put up, and WHO said them???

Beardedbruce, hundreds of thousands of them had already been ethnically cleansed months before Israel even declared its independence, and before they were supposed to have been warned by "the Arabs" to temporarily leave.

Secondly, the Arab armies did not fight in any areas that had been given to the Jews in the partition plan, with the exception of a small part of Old Jerusalem. So the only Israelis they were fighting to clear out were the ones who were in the process of taking, by force, land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:42 PM

We know that the Arab League told them to leave their homes.


You can't revise history. There are report, by anti-Jewish parties, as well as neutral observers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:37 PM

CarolC,

"We happen to know that this is a lie that was concocted for public relations purposes by the leaders of Israel."

WE know nothing of the kind- did you even look at the citations I put up, and WHO said them???



" It's also a huge libel against the Palestinians who were the victims of a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing."

As much a libel as your accusations about Israel being the cause of the 6-day war? You seem to think it a libel if anyone disagrees with you- So I will now call it a libel when you say something I disagree with. I have not seen what I would consider any proof of your accusations, yet I have seen quotes from both outside observers and Palestinian Moslims about the Arab League telling them to get out of the way of the Arab armies and then they would get the land that the Jews had.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:32 PM

This is a claim that may be true in some cases, but the number of such acts and the number of Jews affected has NOT been shown- so, like the number of children sold by Jewish criminals, how can you count them?

I didn't say we had a hard and fast number for this. It's true that we don't know how many fled because of Israeli activities and how many fled because of problems not related to Israeli activities.

For this reason, it's not really possible to determine in every case, who was responsible for the Jewish refugees, and also for this reason, it's not accurate to say try to fix blame on the countries from which the Jews fled. It's not accurate to try to fix blame on either Israel or these countries. We simply don't know.

In the case of the Palestinian refugees, however, we do know who is responsible. We know that there was a systematic and brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing waged against the Palestinians, causing many hundreds of thousands to flee their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:25 PM

A number ( "some") left because they were ordered to by the Arab League, to get out of the way of Arab armies, with the promise they would get ALL of Palestine once the Jews were driven into the sea.

We happen to know that this is a lie that was concocted for public relations purposes by the leaders of Israel. It's also a huge libel against the Palestinians who were the victims of a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:25 PM

Hope?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:18 PM

I agree a solution must be found.

'the time has come to engage in a sulha and to stop killing one another.'
Prof Aharoni, a professor of sociology in Israel and abroad, and president of the World Congress of Egyptian Jews

Reconciliation, possibly along the path of the South African experience, is one solution.

This is not the short term 'fix' of the 'two nation state'

'after four decades of intensive Jewish settlement in the Palestinian territories it occupied during the 1967 war -- Israel has irreversibly cemented its grip on the land on which a Palestinian state might have been created.'

Two populations inhabit one piece of land and, if the land cannot be divided, it must be shared. Equally.

from Los angeles Times article
May 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:48 AM

As does the number of Arab Jewish refugees.

The point is, do we look for a solution both sides can accept, or insist that one side bear the entire burden?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:45 AM

Nevertheless the 'fact' remains that refugee camps currently house around one third of all registered Palestinian refugees**

**The UNRWA defines a Palestinian refugee as:

"persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War."

UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948.

The number of registered Palestine refugees has subsequently grown from 914,000 in 1950 to more than 4.3 million in 2005 and continues to rise due to natural population growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:22 AM

it is intellectually dishonest, to post one table or set of figures from Any source in isolation, and to use those numbers to "prove" a political point about Jewish or Arab rights in Palestine.

i have tried to look at all sources, and evaluate the reasoning and source numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:19 AM

I note your souurce bb and the proviso it contains

'IMPORTANT NOTE

Many of the figures presented on this page must be incorrect, because they conflict with other reports. The purpose of showing these data is to examine the discrepancies. It is an abuse of the intent of this essay, and it is intellectually dishonest, to post one table or set of figures from this page in isolation, and to use those numbers to "prove" a political point about Jewish or Arab rights in Palestine.'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:06 AM

Earlier, either here or in the Obama thread I gave a by nation list for the Jewish refugees. ( with source material, I believe)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:04 AM

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
seems a reasonable start on Arab refugee numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:56 AM

I don't believe I actually gave any indication of numbers however the Jewish refugees include a number of Jews evacuated from their homes in Palestine/Israel, and a much larger number of Jews who fled Arab countries.

The Jews of Jerusalem, and those of Gush Etzion, Atarot, Neve Yaakov and kibbutzim in the Gaza strip were forced to evacuate their homes and leave their property without compensation. The total number of such persons might have been under 10,000. They are more numerous if dependents are included.

In most cases, Jews were not allowed to take out their property, and in many cases they were forced to leave.

This Exodus did not take place all at once in 1948 in all countries.

Post 1948
In Egypt, Jews lingered on until they were forced to leave after the 6-Day war in 1967.

Not all of the Jews who left Arab or Muslim countries may be considered refugees, but over 600,000 were apparently forced to leave without their property and could be defined therefore as refugees.
In addition there were about 100,000 Jews in Iran in 1948. At the time of the Khomeini revolution in 1979, there were about 80,000. About 55,000 found life impossible under the Islamist revolution and fled Iran, leaving abut 25,000 in 2004

source
The Forgotten Refugees:
Jews From Arab Lands
By ADA AHARONI and ALAIN ALBAGLI

Jewish Population of Arab Countries *
   
856,000 1948
475,050 1958
72,600 1968
32,190 1976
7,800   2001

*Copyright 2006, by MidEastWeb for Coexistence

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:31 AM

various sources, giving various numbers. I will go with 640,000 for the reasons I stated earlier- it allows for a number of internal relocations as well as the census supported UN numbers.


I will at least pick numbers that are within the range of actual populations.


And YOUR source for the number of Jews driven out of Arab nations?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:27 AM

the Palestinian sources I refer to come from

Hagopian, Edward and A.B. Zahlen, "Palestine's Arab Population," Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. III, Walid Khalidi et al., eds., 1974, pp. 32-73.

and

Khalidi, Walid et al., eds., All that Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948, 1992, Appendix III, p. 582.

In mid 1946 the figure is given as 714,150 - 744,150
cited source -

Said, Edward et al., A Profile of the Palestinian People, Third Ed, 1990, p. 6; Abu-Lughod, Janet, "The Demographic Transformation of Palestine," in Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine, 1971, pp. 139-63.

Could I once more request the source of your 'facts

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:16 AM

The official Isreali Govt figure in 1948 is 520,000 (as I quoted) and 590,000 in 1992

Source

Based on the full text of a report prepared by the Israeli Foreign Ministry and published in translation by the East Jerusalem daily Al-Quds, 10 September 1992.

on which 'source documents' do you base your 'facts'?