BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:29 PM

I was VERRRRY dumb in 1955. Verrry young and very dumb. I didn't plan my ailments properly, and actually was FORCED to go to school during a world series game. Usually, even at the tender age of eight, I was smarter than that!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:26 AM

The joke just made me shudder thinking of those two "doing it."

Gotta go drink a couple pints of the Black Liquidation to wash the image away.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:22 PM

I realize this is outside of the RBI discussion, but I thought the following line was rather funny, quoting a New York baseball reporter as saying, that if Karl Maulden & Ernest Borgnine ever had a kid together, he'd look like Joe Torre. I do admire Joe Torre, but I did get a wee chuckle out of this one.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM

Rick,
   I'm not one to spout off with, "Well back in MY day....." but it also amuses me to see all of the "equipment" used today (Barry Bonds for example) not to mention the performance enhancing drugs that of course NO ONE uses cause that would just be wrong...hahahaha....

   Does anyone remember rushing home from school to watch a World Series game in the middle of the afternoon? Gotta tape em for my kids. But that's a thread all it's own!

   I agree Blackcatter, there is many an earned walk out there that produces a well deserved RBI. It is funny however, to try to explain that to the "diamond-challenged".....


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM

Pseudolus,

It could be argued that getting four balls in many cases is "using your bat." Unlesss it is an intentional walk, or the pitcher has completely fallen apart, most batters win the battle over the pitcher by fouling off potential strikes, checking their swings and not swinging in the fact of a potentially called ball.

These there's the case of the bean ball, I've seen an unusualy situation of a batter being hit by a pitch, thus walking a run in, then the batter, with bat in hand, rush the pitcher. Luckily, he didn't "use his bat" but he recieved the RBI while he was being ejected from the game. Thank goodness baseball is a non-contact sport.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

Well said Frank.

Actually I suspect when we North Americans complain that cricket is a pretty complex game, we forget just how bizarre some aspects of baseball are. LIKE:

Why Joe Neikro had a small square of sandpaper GLUED to the back of his head! Gawd knows what Phil had!

Why Yankee manager Joe Torre's late brother Frank had to hear EVERYDAY OF HIS LIFE, the crack (from strangers) "Hey Frank, did ya get yer shoes shined"!?

Why some players fill up their bats with little "superballs". While others put cork in there. And some.....have had voodoo rituals performed over them.

I LUV this game!

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:37 AM

I don't think that this has been mentioned yet but it is one of the stranger rules around RBI's. If the bases are loaded and the batter walks (gets four pitches out of the strike zone), forcing the runner from third in to score, he is credited with an RBI. So in fact, you don't even have to use the bat to get a Run BATTED In!!!


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blues=Life
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM

Dylan,
The only way for this to make sense is to come to a town with a minor league ballpark, and spend the summer in the stands, drinking beer, and being educated by the local fans. Otherwise, obviously, the game makes no sense. So, being the good hearted being that I am, I volunteer. If you buy the tickets and the beer, I'll sit there next to you and help you watch the game, er, educate you on the nuances of the sport. *G*
Blues

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 08:18 PM

It is a Run Batted In - not just an advance to another base. The person has to score a run.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: GUEST,boab d
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 11:21 AM

aye cheers to all who replied so let me get this if you allow a plaver to advance then thats an RBI. well that shows me
Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:47 AM

Jeez Blues...thanks. great stuff. How different our baseball discussions would be had Comiskey paid more, Rothstein kept out of it, and Chicago players had a leader. Apparently they didn't have a cohesive team to begin with.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:24 AM

...and I thought it was a "right ball injury". How wrong can you get....?

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blues=Life
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:29 AM

Just to bring up Ty Cobb and Shoeless Joe:

Possibly the greatest line about baseball in a movie came from Field of Dreams, when Shoeless Joe says:

Ty Cobb wanted to play. None of us could stand the sonofabitch when we were alive so we told him to stick it!

And as for Shoeless, although he remains deserving of the Hall of Fame, at least Greenville, SC has given him a park. Check it out at:

Shoeless Joe's Park

Haven't been a fan of MLB since the 2nd strike, but I still love the game. Thank God for Minor League Baseball, where it's still about love of the game.

Blues

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

Boy, I remember those curfews....also the seven inning second game of a double header. I remember that quite a few pitchers threw 7 inning no hitters......not sure how that'd make me feel....possibly the way the Babe felt when he was given FOUR bases one year for balls that bounced into the stands. That last bit of trivia came up first during Maris' chase, and second when Aaron was getting close.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:25 PM

Here's a couple of more memories of mine, Rick, that I wonder if you recall about Maple Leaf Stadium. I couldn't afford the more expensive tickets back then, so I sat in the left field bleachers. Well, they always had a lot of betting going on up there, especially on Sunday afternoon doubleheaders. Do you remember the 6:00 curfew on Sundays, where no inning could start after that time? It was when the Church had an influence on society back then. How about the outfield signs, where a player could win a new suit if they hit the Tip Top Tailor Sign, or if you hit a ball through the 'O' in the StOney's sign, he might win $1000. How about the 'Bad Boy Sign', bless Mel Lastman's little heart. Then the was the guy who attended all Leaf games, and jumped on top of the dugout, and shouted various catcalls at the umpires, or visiting players. Max Patkin usually came to the ballpark once a year. I don't know if they still celebrate it in the majors, but they use to have 'Ladies Day' every so often, where mom or girlfriend, got in free. Finally, I went to more than a few games, where the fog would roll in off Lake Ontario and settle over the park, cancelling some games. Fond memories, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:19 AM

Wow!

ChinMusic just unlocked a long 'vaulted' memory.

Cigars.

I'd forgotten about them at the ball park. Certainly nobody ever complained (audibly at least). Can you imagine folks asking an usher to tell the five middle aged businessmen in suspenders and shirtsleeves to put out their Cubans? Ha ha.

Yup I can smell it now. Not unpleasant...but certainly not something I ever wanted to put in my mouth.....but that was the ballpark (MapleLeaf Stadium) I remember the promotion that had (for a couple of years) Satchell Page sitting in a rocking chair out in the bullpen when Columbus (I think) came to town. They'd bring him in to pitch to a couple of batters, and I'm sure some of the young players wondered what the hell was going on. They'd over swing at the big looping windup and be really pissed that a SEVENTY FIVE YEAR OLD had gotten them out (he wasn't 75...closer to 52 actually...but the mystique had already started.)

After his stint (if it was a nice day) he'd go back to the bullpen...sit in his rocking chair...light up a huge cigar, and the ushers would let a stream of little Canadian kids (who probably had never seen a "No coloreds" sign in their lives, in to get his autograph.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: stevetheORC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:11 AM

Hi Rick

great site, its one that i use a great deal. Tons of usefull info and old news stories. Must say that I envy you guys, me I only get to experiance it all second hand, realy enjoyed reading what 'Cetmst' had to say, man that must have been something.

At least I do get to see live Hockey (Yeh game tomorrow:-)

Keep the stories flowing they make great reading. And Ron you are a lucky so and so, My other half Pushkin loves Hockey so I think that im lucky too.

By for now

De Orc

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 10:26 PM

Rick, you are right on both counts!   :)

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM

OK, I'm gonna try and get this Blue clicky right. Some of you may already know about it....but I wanted to see who actually WAS the fastest pitcher in baseball, and with all the new technology, were they able to see how fast the old timers really WERE.



Also.....cuz from the old silent black and white movies it looked like EVERYONE was just lobbing the ball. Even Walter Johnson. So I rented the complete Ken Burns series from the library....and did "pause, advance, pause advance, etc. for a couple of minutes on each (or most) of the old time pitchers......and surprise surprise....they looked a ton more fluid, but still compact. Perhaps it had to do with knowing that you were expected to pitch nine innings every time.

Anyway check this site for some fascinating info.

playball

Everyone THOUGHT Lew Burdette threw a spitter all the time....after retirement he said "No more than everyone else....'bout two or three times if I needed it".

Ron, you must be an incredible catch, or your wife is a SAINT!! Isn't that the way G Gordon Liddy courted?

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:01 PM

What a great stories that 'cetmst' has recalled, and I loved reading about them. This thread brings to mind that baseball fans will never lose our love of the game, despite how the business side of it, has tarnished its image. There has never been a ballpark that I have entered, walking up the ramp to see that emerald geen diamond infront of me, that my heart hasn't take a few quick jumps. When I see a thread like this one, part of the fun for me, is remembering the days of my youth, when I either played stick ball, little league baseball, or even recalled the most noteworthy ballgames that I've attended. I also think of my dad and mom, who took us to ballgames in Toronto as kids, and there began a lifelong love affair for this great game. It may be appropriate to say that, in this particular thread, whenever I hear the sound of ball meeting wood, it's music to my ears. The aroma of hotdogs, the smell of cigars, watching batting practice, arguing stats and abilities of certain ball players, and hearing the ump yell "PLAY BALL", all add to that special feeling we have for the game of baseball. In an age of immediate gratification and the fast pace of living, baseball is just right tonic to remind us of simpler times, and the enjoyment of sitting out on a summer night, to see a ballgame. I do enjoy other sports, but baseball has always been the closest to my heart.Thanks for sharing your memories on this thread everybody, and see you at the ballpark.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: cetmst
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:35 AM

And what memories this thread has stirred. I began playing baseball as a child on sandlots before Little League, have switched over to softball and will begin my 70th year by playing in a mens' senior league this spring. My first major league game was seeing the New York Giants at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh with Paul and Lloyd Waner, Pie Traynor, Arky Vaughan, Gus Suhr (who at the time had the longest continuous playing streak in the National League), Mel Ott, Bill Terry, Carl Hubbell. Later games were against the Cardinals with Dizzy and Paul Dean, Frank Frisch, Pepper Martin, Ducky Medwick, the Cubs with Charley Grimm, Gabby Hartnett, Billy Herman and dozens of other memorable players. Subsequent ballparks visited include Cleveland, Sportsmans' Park and Busch Stadium in St. Louis, Tiger Stadium, Fenway Park, Candlestick Park, RFK Stadium im Washington, Memorial Field and Camden Yards in Baltimore, Wrigley Field, San Diego, Atlanta, Shea Stadium, Shibe Park in Philadelphia, minor league parks in San Antonio, Portland Maine, and in the heyday of postwar Class D leagues such places as Oil City and Butler Pennsylvania and Muskogee Oklahoma. Recently I have been to Spring Training games at both parks in Fort Myers Florida. I grew up in the small town of Emlenton Pennsylvania and the local Sterling Oil Refinery fielded a semi-pro team which played against other industrial teams around Pennsylvania, Ohio and West Virginia, but also before the war hosted teams of the Negro League, the Homestead Grays, Pittsburgh Crawfords, Newark Black Giants, Kansas City and Birmingham and I had the opportunity of seeing the likes of Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Cool Papa Bell. I also saw a man play baseball who had played in the first World Series. Claude Ritchey was a coach for the Sterling Oils and in one game with his team far ahead went in as a pinch hitter. On a visit to Forbes Field my father and others took Claude Ritchey for a reunion with Honus Wagner and I was present at that meeting.   However my best memory did not happen. One day in 1935 Dad had some business in Pittsburgh and asked me if I wanted to go to the game to see the Pirates play the Boston Braves but being even younger and more foolish than I am now I declined because it was only a single game and not a double header. On that day Babe Ruth who had signed on with the Braves after being released by the Yankees hit three home runs, the last three of his career. I did, however, see Ted Williams' last home run, one of the eleven million people who say they were at Fenway Park that Day. And I too have been seeing less baseball, disturbed by the business it has become.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:52 PM

Rick, remember the movie diner and the one character who would only get married if his fiancee passed a quiz about the Baltimore Colts?   Let's just say that my wife scored 100 when quizzed about the NY Mets.

We were both rabid fans. We named our daughter Casey (after Stengel). When my wife was giving birth, we were watching a Mets game on TV. I will never forget, without the help of any drugs, she was in the middle of a contraction doing her breathing (and screaming!) and suddenly one of the Mets hit a home run. She actually was able to turn her head to watch the TV and give out a shout of "go go go" during the contraction.

The amazing thing is we both lost interest. I still go to games but not like before.   The biggest factor was our family, which obviously takes priority.   The baseball strikes also put in perspective how ludicrious the players and owners have become.   It just isn't the same. The whole "forgive Pete Rose" movement is just another example of how fans get suckered into the money game. It is a real shame.

Still we have great memories.   You can't change that!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:55 PM

Orc,

autographs are a billion dollar industry in the U.S. these days. IT's almost impossible to get any because of all the hunters out there who turn around and sell them. Most pros won't sign execpt for kids and hunters are using them to get autos as well.

I'd suggest making friends with someone in Arlington who is a baseball fan - they may be able to help you out be getting to a game a couple hours before for practice - that's the best time to get them. Or why not take your vacation in March in Flirda and hit a bunch of the training camps. You can get pretty close the the stars.

Aas for Nolan Ryan check out the following website. He has his own foundation. Last year I wrote to him and asked him what he found spiritual about the game. I donated $25 to his charity. He wrote me a nice page long letter with an autograph. I shared his remarks in a Sunday service at my church last Summer.

http://www.nolanryan.com/

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:56 AM

It ain't you Orc. Boy things have changed, I have Whitey Ford and Yogi Berra's signatures on my first glove! Just leaned over the rail and asked.

Jeezus Bobert....Of COURSE he beat my heroes.....and you know WHY!

But do others in this thread know? It wasn't so much what he did....it was what they THOUGHT he did! The press really helped as well.....messed up the Yankees minds.

Nitro eh? Great name. Remember Vinegar Bend Mizell?

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: stevetheORC
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:11 AM

On a slightly diffrent tack.
I recently Emailed the Texas Ranger's to find out about the signing habits of the players (I dont want to send a pile of trading cards then never get them back, too hard to come by over here :-) In perticular I wanted info on Nolan Ryan, I am aware that he requires a donation to a charity but unsure of which one!
I pointed out that I lived in the UK.
The reply was along the lines that Arod, and a number of the big satrs do not sign through the mail, Nolan wants a donation (no mention of which charity) and the others might or might not sign depending on how they felt. But if I came to the stadium on a certain (midweek I belive) game day there would be no problem with getting in person autos.
I thought that the reply lacked a certain understanding of the original request!!! or is it just me?

Orc

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 07:22 AM

HEY RON!!!! I know you'll LOVE this piece of news!!!

You know those sillyass Congressional documents honoring various events? Well, there is one coming through Congress to honor Ohio's Bicentennial. But Rep. Steve Chabot (Ohio 1st District-Cincy) refuses to sign it because in it's list of "Notable Ohioans" it fails to mention Paul Brown and.......Pete Rose.

A fellow politico (state leg. and Cincy mayor), Charles Lukens has gotten a lot of mileage by championing Rose. In the process he has made a few statements that are hilarious, like the one that said to the effect that "All of that business with Rose happened a long time ago and this is a new era. How long can his suspension last?" Evidently the concept of "lifetime" is beyond his grasp.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:46 PM

Rick - why do you think Ron married her?

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:31 PM

Well, danged! I don't want to drift too far here but I fuggured that I'd get in my Wes Ginny plug. We got this town here called Nitro, Wes Ginny. And well, back around 1944 or 1945 there was this skinny kid who was offered a job a the local Rayon plant. Well, back then everyone who was offered a job *had* to play on the company's baseball team. So, having pitched a litlle in high school, the kid became the teams pitcher and went 12-2.

Fast forward to the 1957 World series and this kid tore the New York Yankees up real good winning all three of his starts in the series.

And just who were a few of the folks that he faced in the series? You guessed it. Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Enos Slaughter, Moose Skowron, Hank Bauer and Elston Howard! Heck of a bunch of guys to intimidate and stike out.

And all done in Wes Ginny style!

Oh, who is he? Well, I'm sure that Spazer has guessed and maybe a few others....

(Drumroll...)

Lew Burdette..................

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:04 PM

Now CUT THAT OUT!

Ron...you have a wife who WANTED TO GO TO THE HALL OF FAME!!??

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:48 PM

The double meaning of the baseball phrase - "two-bagger" comes to mind.

Ouch!

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:39 PM

Sex with Marge Schott????????? You have now ruined whatever sleep that an Irish musician was going to get during this mad house week. The visual I am getting of that has completely screwed my brain up. There ought to be a Hall of Fame for anyone that could do that.......wouldn't have to worry about anyone being in it......

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Blackcatter - there is a difference between having a record or artifacts on exhibit at the Hall of Fame and being "inducted". Marv Throneberry had artifacts on display when I was there.

Ballparks... wow!!   Before the kids came my wife and I would spend our vacations traveling to different ballparks.   Our honeymoon (which we delayed until baseball season) consisted of going to the Hall of Fame, the Little Falls Mets (no longer in existence), the Maine Guides (Old Orchard Beach), Pawtucket Red Sox (great park!!!) and Fenway (an amazing park!).

My first ball game was at Forbes Field. Since 1984 I've had a season ticket plan at Shea Stadium. Yes, I admit to going to Yankee Stadium - but the last time I was there was in 1979 to see Jerry Koosman when he was pitching for the Twins!   I've been to Veterans Stadium, San Diego, Candlestick, Anaheim, Baltimore(Memorial Stadium), and a number of minor league parks on the east coast.   I LOVE the stadium that the Newark Bears play in - it really has the feel of an old-time city ballpark! Check it out if you can!!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM

Great list theer, Spaw!

Wish I could get up to Columbus - I haven't actually been to any Ohio parks for a game (though in 2001 I protested outside the Jake in Cleveland concerning the "Indians" and their mascot.)

As can be expected, I see many Spring Training games each year - I've been to 7 so far, as that's the best way to see good ball in Florida. Been to the "flying saucer" in St. Pete, of course, but it's a pretty dismal place to see baseball.

A quick list off the top of my head: Anaheim (my old hometown team), the Dogers at Chavez Ravine, The 'Stick, Arlington, Wrigley field, old Comiskey, new Comiskey, Camden, St. Pete, Miami, old Atlanta, The House That Ruth Built, Kingdome, Camden Yards, Astrodome, Tigers stadium, and Fenway. I've also been to nearly every Minor League park in Florida, Georgia, & S & N Carolina.

Quick bit of info: My Dad was born in Chigago the same year that Comiskey Park opened and died the same year it was torn down. I was born the same year Anaheim Stadium (Edison) was built. If you hear about it being torn down LET ME KNOW!

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

Ya' got me beat there BC!!

I've been to minor league parks in Nashville, Chattanooga, Toledo, and of course Columbus. Cooper in Columbus is almost downtown, you can see the skyline nicely, and a couple of years ago they changed the entire complexion and ambience of the old place by going back to grass!   When they put that cheap ass artificial turf in, the whole place seemed almost dismal......amazing the difference returning to grass made!

Majors, I've of course been to Cleveland, both the Jake and Municipal. In Cincy, I attended several games as a kid at the original Crosley Field and also have gone to the bow(Cynergy). Been to Yankee Stadium once, St. Louis once, Atlanta (not "The Ted") a few times, Three Rivers once, and went to a game at Camden Yards in Baltimore. I really like Camden and the Jake and the whole trend of going back to the ballpark design. I hated those friggin' bowls and their nosebleed seats.

If you (or any of you) are in Columbus during ball season, I'd love to go to a game with you. Cooper is a neat old place now with the grass again and I love minor league ball. AND IT'S CHEAP!!!!! We try to hit the "Dime-A-Dog nights and such and last year, we had both families (Connie and Wayne's as well as ours---8 of us) at a game for which we had free tickets (usually easy to get from someone) for Dime-Dog. We upgraded to Box Seats for 4 bucks a piece and by the end of the night we had consumed ridiculous quantities of dogs, had numerous pops and peanuts, and a couple of popcorns. Including the gas, parking, food, upgrades, etc......eight of us had a pretty good time watching the Clippers play the Mud Hens for a grand total of about $55.00!!!! even on an average night a family can attend the game, have some goodies and spend far less than 50 bucks which barely buys a couple of bad seats in Cincy!!

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM

I agree Ron, but because of his records, he's actually in the Hall of Fame, just not "officially". Also remember that if fairness had anything to do with the Hall of Fame, the HOF would have to finally deal with the whole Doubleday/Cooperstown myth.

The simple reason that Cobb is in and Rose is not - Cobb wasn't banned from the game and Rose was. Baseball hasn't been afraid to honor Rose in the past few years (they could have ignored the votes for him in the All Century Team) but tradition runs deep in baseball and if Joe Jackson can't get in, neither will Rose.


On the other hand, take a look at the records of Tinker, Evers, and Chance. Good players, but I would argue they got in on the strength of a poem - Their double play stats weren't even that remarkable. Plus, they were even inducted in the same year!
________________________________________________

By the way - how many Major League parks have people been to? How about Minor League Parks. How about Spring Training?

In the early 90s I saw a game in every Florida Spring Training Park for 3 straight years.

I've been to 17 Major, 12 Minor and over 30 Spring Training Parks.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:03 PM

Keep the bastard out!!   

The evidence is clear. The rules were clear. The requierements are clear. There is no reason why Rose should be enshrined. He blew and he can go to his grave knowing that.

Again I ask the question, how can we be so forgiving of sports stars?? Why are rules okay for some but not for others? Nice example this moron sets! Rose was a great ballplayer, he might have become a superb manager, but he had problems that he won't admit to - unless it will get him into the Hall of Fame.   Many of you have been making a federal case out of somebody buying their way into a Rockabilly Hall of Fame but yet it is not a problem to let a cheat and a liar and somebody who blatantly broke the rules into a more prestigious Hall. Why tarnish the sport even more?   Why not let every slimebag who wore a uniform in. How about Darryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden? Can we excuse their drug abuse and say that they belong?   

He probably will get in, only because the suits that run this game have no guts anymore.   

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:44 PM

Oh gawd Rick!!!!! No one could have been induced to sleep with Marge!!!! Better the friggin' St. Bernard!!! Sex with Marge Schott.....The mind boggles..........

Cobb was indeed from the same cloth as Landis, Landis being named for Kennesaw Mountain and Cobb growing up in it's shadow........did you see the movie with Tommy Lee Jones, "Cobb.?" One of my tough ass acting foster kids watched the thing and at the end said how he thought Cobb was a cool guy and he'd like to be like that.........So much for role models.

I like Rose too and no matter what else, living here the days of the "Big Red Machine" are not easily forgotten. And if people can't remember all of that roster, most know Rose.....followed by Morgan and Bench. He may be dead, but he'll get in. I'm with Rick.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:34 PM

Bill! "Ty Cobb as bad as Rose in his way"? Have you read the articles, the biography, the millions of words about Cobb? In many ways he would have given HITLER a run for his money!

BUT........although Cobb had virtually no friends he was very well connected with big shot segregationist politicians, and industrialists and don't forget Landis' views on Blacks. So it was a bit of a trade off. Cobb and Landis battled but basically they were cut from the same cloth.

You know, sometimes these types of threads are fascinating, and then suddenly you realize, that no matter how close the subject is to your heart, or how much you've tried to be open minded in diseminating your research.......for some it simply boils down to:

I like Rose, I don't believe the evidence...he should be in the Hall.

or....

I don't like Rose, I believe the evidence....keep him out.

Same thing with Nixon, eh?

Well, I think the evidence was very conclusive, and I DO like Rose. But getting in BIGGGGGG debt with Tony Soprano, might lead a manager to start a lesser pitcher, or sleep with Marge Schott..... Sorry!

He'll get in eventually.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

Rose is in the record books...what he did on the field will be remembered as quite an accomplishment, and they can't take THAT away from him....and yes, if all were fair, Ty Cobb might NOT be in the Hall, because he was as bad as Rose in his way.

It makes me sad to see Rose 95% unrepentant and, seemingly, lying to himself about the depth of his transgressions.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:10 PM

Orc, he could be as bad as I make him out!   :)

My Nixon analogy was only half in jest. Nixon received a very controversial pardon and it depends on who you talk to when you say he was looked upon as an elder statesman. Other then writing books and a few interviews, Nixon retired - right here in New Jersey.   My point was that Nixon and Rose abused their stature. They both felt their status enabled them to be above the "normal" rules.

Whether or not Rose bet for or against the Reds is irrelevant. The Major League Baseball Rules at the time forbid illegal betting of any kind, and Rose admitted that he bet on football and basketball. That alone is grounds for banishment based on the rules he agreed to when he signed his contract.

These were not nickel and dime bets. Read the evidence and look at his signature on large checks to "runners". He did everything he could to hide the evidence, which he freely admits.   He was dealing with some dangerous people as well.   If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Rose was selected by the fans to be honored in the two ceremonies that you mentioned. Fan votes are very misleading - it is easy to stuff the ballot box and but in an "undeserving" winner. I voted for Ed Kranepool.   I am not trying to deny that Rose did not deserve to be honored and that I am probably in the minority on this issue. (A small issue to be sure in this day and age. I just read a poll that most Americans actually SUPPORT a war with Iraq. Sickening.) Rose WAS an exciting ballplayer and he certainly has the skills to be in the HOF.   However, if the HOF is to have any meaning it must be more than that. Yes, there are a number of individuals in there that do not belong. That doesn't make it right to continue lowering standards.

If Rose was mislead by his lawyers, tough. You get what you pay for. Ignorance of the law is no excuse as they say.

IF Rose were to be reinstated, then every single case needs to be reopened. The lessons learned from the Black Sox scandal (which was one of many - the White Sox were the biggest story but betting and throwing games was common)are being completly ignored.

Rose is not a hero. He is a liar, a cheat, and a whiner. Loser.

Why is that we are more forgiving of the sins of sports stars?

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

Again there is no evidence that he bet against the Reds at any stage so what is the harm in betting on your team to win, suerly that is going to motivate you to push for a victory?:-)

As I said previously he admits to all charges except the one of betting on Baseball, And there is a probability that he did think he could apply to be reinstated after a year (hence his signing of the agreement, his lawyers seemed to think that was so)

You mention Nixon not quite the same so i am assuming that was meant in jest:-) there again was he not pardond and looked upon as a elder statesman after his term?
Rose was honored on the field before Game 2 of the 1999 World Series for his selection as a member of the All Century Team. he was also honored on the field during the 2002 World Series, in a ceremony celebrating baseball's greatest moments.

And the Reds wanted to honour him, so he cant be quite as bad as you make him out to be suerly?

Peace n Luv

The ORC

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:47 AM

He certainly WAS a great player Orc. I'm so glad I got to see him. On TV, I watched him destroy catcher Ray Fosse, and later my friend Stan Melasky (who'd played a bit with Fosse) said "There's not a player on the field mad at Rose right now....that's how he plays ALL THE TIME"!

Ty Cobb who was at LEAST as bad a gambler as Rose, is IN.

Shoeless Joe Jackson who was apparently illiterate (and was only accused once....is not.

He's a tough nut, and I believe he'll NEVER admit to wrong-doing in his lifetime, but I'll bet he's in within five years of his death (with a caveat on the plaque)

The HOCKEY HALL OF FAME kept several players out cuz they weren't CHRISTIAN enough.

And of course, Spaw's right about Hornung and Karras.....these Hall of Famers knew how to gamble!

Can you imagine how many Music pioneers would be kept out of the Rockabilly Hall of Fame, if they enforced the drug laws? (just kiddin')

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

Spaw, football is not a real sport in my humble opinion. They can elect whoever they want.

:)

Orc, nice summation, but you fail to address the FACT that he broke the rules, rules that he knew and understood.   He also signed an agreement to the above and then has the stupidity to say he didn't understand what he was signing!!   he is a liar and a moron.

The fact that the HOF has items on display from his career is entirely different from bestowing an honor upon the man. If you ever get to the hall you will see exhibits that examine the days before integration. It is one thing to examine history and another to honor it.

No, Pete Rose did not contribute to the overall well being of the sport in my opinion. Pete Rose was a good ballplayer, but he was not a fine human being. He used his status, and continues to use his status, to show that he above the rules. Nixon did the same the same thing in his job.

The game is not just about winning, otherwise the Chicago Cubs, Boston Red Sox, Cleveland Indians and many other teams would not exist. Without sounding like Ken Burns, the game of baseball says something about the fabric of the country.

There are something like 125 individuals on the banned list from baseball - names going back over a century. Just because Rose had a bigger impact on the game does not mean he should be treated differently. The only person being vindictive against Pete Rose is Pete Rose himself.   He continues to whine and cry about being mistreated.   It is rather sad that the only focus in his life seems to be the desire to step into the spotlight again and have people praise him. How pathetic is that?   What low self-esteem must drive a person to have such desires.   The man obviously has nothing else going on in his life. A one trick pony.   He should just fade away.

Click on the links that I posted above that examines the evidence.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:24 AM

Was there ever any question of his integraty whilst he was a player?
I was under the impression that he was a manager at the time?

If he is such a bad example why do the HOF still show items that he donated 20+ i believe. I would imagine that gambling still continues in baseball as it does in every other sport.

All that I am saying is why continue to be vindictive towards him, He admitted to all other charges against him and did his time. To this day He denies the betting, yet if he was to say ok yep i did it the chances are that he would be reinstated why has he not done this?

When he played did he conduct himself well, was he a team player, did he play to win? Did he contribute to the overall wellbeing of the sport.

What he did as a manager should not reflect on what he did as a player.

I rest my case for the defence:-))

I just think the guy was a great player:-))

Orc's Rule

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:16 AM

So Ron........Was the football HOF wrong to induct Karras and Hornung then?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM

No Orc, it is not JUST how well a player plays the game. If it were based on stats there would be no need for voting.

From the HOF:

"5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played"

While none of us are certain, apparently there was at least enough evidence to enforce these sanctions. evidence

Are these major crimes? In the grand scheme of things, no. However, Rose knew the rules. Because of its past, baseball has STRONG sanctions to prevent betting.   The Hall of Fame has standards. Rose knowlingly jeopardized his career and reputation and got caught. Too damn bad.   The man is not a role model, he has turned into a pathetic loser.

For the complete rules for HOF election go to:
HOF rules


Keep Rose out!!!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: stevetheORC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:40 AM

Please forgive my obvious ignorance but I thought that the criteria for the HOF was how well a player had played and not that he might have bet on a game!! I can understand getting upset over a player throwing a game for money, That is undoutably wrong and deserves the harshest sanctions. Was there any evidence that Rose had done this as manager? or was it just the fact that he placed a bet (which I believe he still denies) He was convicted of tax evasion ( a honrable crime:-)but even the commision (other than Giamatti) said that there was doubt about his betting on the game, even Prez Jimmy Carter has come out and said that he should be eligable for the HOF

I am by the way a british fan

ORC'S Rule

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM

Landis was brought in to "clean up" the game after the "Black" Sox scandal of 1919.   He had the authority to make the decisions banning players for life as the owners needed him to restore the games image.   In 2003 the owners have re-taken control and we will never see another strong commissioner with power to make change.

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

Mick, I'll tell "ya" something. I don't know much about Irish politics or 'the troubles', but my goodness, there was a cauldron boiling at the turn of the century around "The Bostons". It was VERY political, threats were made and Huge sums of money were bet.

The New York Highlanders (England) and New York Giants (Ireland) also had their ties in the old country, as well.

There are great photos in "The Glory of their Times" of Boston's "Smokey Joe Wood" warming up with THOUSANDS of Irish fans (and organization members) standing right next to him! Oh what an atmosphere that would have been!! On the other side of the absolutely CHOKED field was "Matty" (The Christian Gentleman!!) throwing on the sideline.

I think their was a TON of betting goin on (possibly by "hall of Famers") but my guess is that MOST of it stopped when Judge Landis came in.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What in Baseball is an RBI???
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:57 PM

For those that are fans of the game from its earliest times, IF I NEVER GET BACK by Darryl Brock is a great read. It really has several subplots, one involving the Fenian Uprising of 1867, Mark Twain is a character, and great descriptions of the game in its earliest times.

I believe it was 50/50 drawings at these early games that generated the seed money that was used to establish what eventually became THE ROCKABILLY HALL OF FAME.

Mick