Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 12:12 PM

'Fairytale of New York' must be the most depressing and miserable 'Christmas' song ever. And poor substance-abusing Shane badly needed a dentist (I read that eventually he did get his teeth seen to!) The video is always in black and white, and while the words are, "The boys of the NYPD choir were singing Galway Bay" they're not, they're playing bagpipes.

However, I can't resist it. I grab the remote and turn the sound right up, and sing along.
Must be because I'm half Irish.

As a child, the word 'faggot' meant an unsavoury woman, not a gay man.

In Norwich, Lollards were burned at the stake, and had to carry a 'faggot' or 'fardel' to the place where the burnings took place.
It's said that the ghost of a young woman carrying her faggot can sometimes be seen at night creeping along near Lollards Pit. Brr!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 11:59 AM

In context of the song, she is so contemptuous of what she angrily regards as such a weak useless man
that she is hurling the the word faggot at him to insult his masculinity...?????


When I was 14 or 15 my maths teacher hurled the blackboard duster at me,
and followed up by calling me a long haired poof in front of my class mates...

As if that would stop me mucking about in class...
I thought it was hilarious that he'd got so angry...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 11:34 AM

When I was young in the 70s 80s it was pretty common for folks to just call someone a poof or homo etc just as a general insult. You didn't really hear the word faggot in that context as it is US usage. But this song is supposedly someone from Ireland who's moved to the US so maybe has picked up the word there. To me though in the song she isn't suggesting he is a homosexual. She is simply insulting him. Just as she calls him an arse and a scumbag. Not PC in the least and terrible I know - but implying someone was homosexual was a common insult. So seems pretty realistic lyric to me.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:27 PM

Which is why I say, "I don't know what Shane had in mind; I'm just talking about general usage of the word itself - it's just not a word a North American woman would be likely to direct to a man without something behind it. Having said that - I don't know anything about New York Irish immigrant women in their cups .... "

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:25 PM

Maybe not a term a North American woman would use without that implication, meself, but this isn't a North American woman using it. Or a North American man writing it.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 07:49 PM

As I say, I don't know what Shane had in mind; I'm just talking about general usage of the word itself - it's just not a word a North American woman would be likely to direct to a man without something behind it. Having said that - I don't know anything about New York Irish immigrant women in their cups ....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 07:10 PM

In the context of the song I don't think there's any implication of him being not entirely heterosexual. A dysfunctional, disillusioned couple, whose early romantic dreams didn't turn out the way they were intending, trading insults. That's how I hear it in the UK.

Mick

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 04:37 PM

Now, I have no idea what Shane was thinking - but generally in North America, "faggot" is not a term a woman would throw at a man without having some reason to imply that he is not entirely heterosexual. It's just not a pejorative that women use casually - in my limited, sheltered, protected, bubble-wrapped experience.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM

While the use in the song is clearly meant as a casual pejorative (and I presume in it's modern American sense), historically it didn't have that meaning in British English.

Patridge gives =baggage, a pejorative applied to a woman (ca1600); faggot/little faggot=applied to a child(ca 1859).

(other uses too: as the meaty delicacy, also butchers' oddments (ca 1850), also a man mustered but not yet enrolled (C17-19) and later a man hired to appear on a muster/muster roll(C18-19))

Mick

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM

Yes I watched the documentary on BBC4 a couple of days ago. It was very good. So if you have not seen it I imagine it will be on iplayer at the moment.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:07 PM

Yes Helen ~ first singer per documentary was Pogues own female singer ~ the documentary really is enlightening and the remaking of the song a revelation too

Ray

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:30 PM

r.padgett,

I can't listen to Kirsty McColl without lamenting her loss.

I bought a multi-CD set of The Pogues and there are different versions of Fairytale of NY from the earliest tentative demo tape through to the last version. I haven't seen the doco but I think it would be interesting. The first female singer was not Kirsty McColl, and the change of singer changed the feeling of the song for me. She nailed it - of course.

I reopened the thread just because I read the article that I linked to on the Oz ABC news site. If you haven't read that article yet, it was a worthwhile opinion piece.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM

Perhaps the beeb faggot to censor it...???

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:05 PM

This post was started Over 10 years ago,The song has been sung in its entirety with no censorship- by the B.B.C for Many years !!!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:19 PM

They do so with gay abandon, Bonzo.

Now I am just nipping out to roll a fag...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:10 PM

Somebody decides that a word is associated with homosexuality and the world must not use it?????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:05 AM

I find the idea of this song being played in stores really depressing.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 06:25 AM

Recently seen the making of "Fairytale of New York" ~ documentary with a tear in me eye ~ UK stores (food) are playing this over and over (on loop I assume!!) and certainly Shane must be laughing all the way to the bank (Christmas 2018)

The "f" word is faggot ~ which in UK had a number of meanings ~ but banned for its US meaning (I assume) of homosexual ~ other old meanings were sticks for firewood (or kindling) and a sort of sausage (German?) and old faggott) derisory term for an old woman!

Anyway the documentary is very good and the 2yrs it took in the making and source or inspiration for this undoubted masterpiece and cash cow ~ really upset that Kirsty MacColl is no longer with us in such a tragic accident

Brilliant
Ray

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:45 AM

Confession: I skimmed the news article that I linked to fairly quickly and I assumed that the f-word referred to was the swear word, but then thinking throughout the day I couldn't remember if the swear word was in the song.

When I read the article I thought the journalist started writing about the swear word and changed course slightly to write about the word "faggot" but now I realise that that was what the main intent of the article.

It was early. I hadn't had my first caffeine fix.

Apologies.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 09:24 PM

We always believed at school that you could tell a homosexual by the fact that he smoked tipped fags.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:44 PM

Somewhat related, after viewing an episode of Love Thy Neighbour on youtube a couple of weeks ago,
me and the mrs agreed some of it was still fairly funny,
whilst having a good serious debate on the obvious issues related to this well out dated sit com...

Some quick research did turn up a fact that the term "n1gn0g" [look it up if you want..]
is actually much older in English colloquial usage,
predating it's popular adoption by racists...

Though anyone stubbornly insisting on still saying it in public
supposedly in it's origional intended meaning,
is just asking for trouble...

That's the sort of thing a sneaky covert racist would do...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:09 PM

Yes and when you say you're on twenty fags a day, they look at you with disbelief...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: rich-joy
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:54 PM

Yes, down under in Aust, "fags" were either cigarettes, or, taken from books re English public schoolboys : were lower form slaves to the upper form elite.

R-J

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:43 PM

I think that in my childhood a (old) "faggot" would have been an unkindly term for an old woman. I'm not sure if it was used as a more general insult.

I didn't become aware of the homosexual meaning until I started on the Internet. I commented somewhere that "I could do with a fag". UK meaning in that context would be a cigarette but some Americans had a different interpretation.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: rich-joy
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:40 PM

I was glad that Dave Sunderland pointed out in his 19Dec07 post : "When I was a kid in the North East of England and I, or someone else, was referred to as a "faggot" it meant that they were a source of annoyance or irritation. It was many years later that I learned that in USA it was a term used to describe a homosexual...."

My late Mother, well educated and well spoken, and born 1923 in West Aussie, occasionally used the expression when one of her cats was being exceedingly frustratingly annoying!! She had nothing against gay folks, (.... but the American culture that was taking us over post WWII, was quite another thing!)

So cultural context and country of origin is everything, eh.

Merry Bah-Humbug!!

Cheers, R-J
Down Under

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:33 PM

All I can say, is me and my mates in provincial South West England all boys grammar school
shunned American imperialist swear-words on principle...
I still do...

We had our own perfectly good [though now rightly unacceptable] terms for each other such as "bender" and "bumboy".
Which I'd argue were relatively comical,
and lacked the depth of sheer homophobic hatred embedded in USA use of "faggot"...???

Besides which a faggot is a popular savoury meal round these west country parts...

As I recall, actual homosexual activity was as far as we could see completely unknown amongst our school community
We assumed that was more prevalent in exclusive posh public schools...

By the mid 70s, when we did actually have gay friends in bands and youth theatre,
no big deal - we came of age via glam rock and popular youth media depictions
of fashionable androginy and bisexuality...

Us straight and gay college mates camping it up together in small villages
just to wind up the tory young farmers was great sport...

...until they started getting violent....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:25 PM

As peoples ways change, past behaviours are forgotten. To throw a bit of light on usage in earlier times, see "fagging" in wikipaedia. Strange that no-one has mentioned this (in my youth) normal usage of the word. Mebbe I'm just tooo old?

Whether the homosexual connotations are earlier must be a matter of conjecture.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:50 PM

"I don't remember anyone flinging it around as an insult in my social world."

I doubt there is a male born in the 20th Century in the English-speaking world who didn't hear it flung around as an insult - but it is one of those words that those of us with any pretense of respectability didn't use in front of females.

I've never looked into it, but that story of the witch-burning, etc., sounds like folk-etymology to me .....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:21 PM

I'm glad I was a schoolboy in the 1960s to 70s...
I got to use a lot of swear words and insults now on the official banned list...

.. of course there are two swear words considered so bad back in my day,
which have become so watered down by over use,
I can now say one of them in front of my old mum...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:11 PM

F word as in, 'If you see Kay (eff-u-cee-kay), tell her I want to see her'.

Let me tell you, straight up (no pun intended) that The Pogues are one of my all-time fave bands. I play their CD's over and over and over. Love 'em. I never thought that the use of the word "faggot" in the context of the song was intended as a gay slur, but just another name to throw at each other. I guess I should have thought of it being the gay equivalent of the n-word, but the context of the song and the fact that the only time I have ever heard men use the word "faggot" has been some of my gay friends talking about themselves or referring to their close friends, i.e. being funny, means that I tend not to see the word as a hate word.

I know it can be used by homophobic rednecks, but in fact, I don't remember anyone flinging it around as an insult in my social world.

I remember when I was a lot younger being really upset when a gay friend first told me why the word is used - witch burning context, using gay people as fuel for the fire.

But back to the article I linked to, I think it was the swear word firstly, and then the word "faggot" which the journalist was writing an opinion about.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 02:23 PM

F word... "Fairy"...???

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 02:21 PM

Worth a read - an opinion piece:

'F' word in Fairtytale of New York

"The Christmas party pooper has, over the centuries, taken different guises.

"The classic Dickensian scrooge wore an imposing hat and a grimace and said "bah humbug".

"The grinch is a disgruntled green creature written by Dr Seuss who steals Christmas.

"But the modern day scourge of Christmas has no candle, imposing hat or green fur.

"Instead, they have a well-hammered keyboard in front of them, wear the most po of all po-faces and say:

    'Stop playing the Fairytale of New York because it offends me and my LGBTQI+ and non-binary friends'."

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:55 AM

Are they going to bleep out "fairy" also?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM

Enjoymanet = enjoyment
- Typo Police.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:12 AM

I wonder if 'Guest'(9.02am) has taken in the original date of this post?
But I wonder even more why I am looking at the Mudcat Forum at 2pm on Christmas Day.
Any road up (or 'anyway' for our American readers) Fairy Tale Of New York has been played uncensored on the BBC and everywhere else for many years now, to the great enjoymanet of all.
And long may it be so.
Merry Christmas to all!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

I always thought it was because the BBC didn't want to upset its board of directors :-)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM

.... good news; I'll be able to sing one of my favourite songs again, without leaving out the line:

"See the faggot with the earing and the makeup, yea buddy that's his own hair"

... save us from the censorship police

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:25 AM

Just caught up, apparently the ban has been lifted, according to the BBC website.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 07:18 PM

No point in getting worked up about it. I think this is pretty obviously a publicity stunt by BBC 1, to remind people it exists.

And I think the truth of that has been demonstrated by what happened next: BBC backs down on plan to censor 'Fairytale of New York'

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 07:10 PM

The 'character' being called a faggot 'seems' openly hetro, IMO.
... unless there is some subtext we're missing out on....

It was heading for number 1 in the download charts, last time I looked

B.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:57 PM

where I come from a FAGGOT is some meat dish, like meatballs. So why is that offencive to Gays, I mean this is Britian and NOT AMERICA.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 03:32 PM

I'm wondering what it the BBC has against a bundle of twigs, which is, after all, what a faggot is.... :-P

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:39 PM

MTV UK's music channels VH1 UK and TMF UK have also censored the video for 2007, removing not only the words "faggot" and "slut", but also "arse", despite non-MTV owned music channels playing it uncut. (excluding the BBC, of course!!)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

At least it keeps Shane in beer money for the festive season. Wish he'd spend some of it at the dentist. The Tooth Fairy Tale of New York could well be a follow up.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:21 PM

'Giok' - it's not about this or that particular joke, it's about using the word "poofter" to get a laugh, or calling somebody that. That is just plain insulting.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Homerssohn
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

To paraphrase Mr Kahn:

I ain't afraid of the swearing
I ain't afraid of the banter
I ain't afraid of the teasing
I'm afraid of the self-righteous protecting my rights.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:06 PM

It was 'I'm Sorry, I'll Read That Again' which had fun in the '60's beeping out the lyrics of popular songs. I can remember 'It's Not Unusual' (to have 'beep' with anyone), and 'Jake The Peg (with the extra 'beep').

Like so much in that programme, (and indeed like me), it was puerile, potentially offensive and has not stood the test of time, but you had to be there. I can remember an entire pub bar emptying for half an hour so that people could sit in their cars and listen to it. I don't think the landlord ever quite realised what was going on.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:40 AM

I don't find The Office funny either.
Perhaps that's because it makes jokes about, and lampoons a minority.
i.e. The socially inept.
This of course proves nothing, except that different people laugh at different things, with some people even having the facility to be able to laugh at themselves.
Not as rare as it would at first appear.
G

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

Someone above told me:
"Aw come on pal, develop a sense of humour for fucks sake."

Like I've never had that demand aggressively thrust at me before.

Since writing my post above I'm pleased to tell you that I have developed a sense of humour. And you know what? That joke's still not funny.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Barnacle (at work)
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:22 AM

It's one of my favourite all-time songs. Not just for Christmas. Shane McGowan has written some fine words and interprets them well. I do not think that any of the words in "Fairytale" were done for cheap effect, they make a strong statement and, BBC or not, my son and I will still sing it together when we are out shopping in the festive season. It does tend to keep the crowds away!!! Anyway, even the BEEB has seen the folly of its actions. Good sense prevails!!