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BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:55 PM @olddude: You're welcome. :-) It comes from a section of the Monticello website entitled "spurious quotations." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:52 PM I see it thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:50 PM That exact quote comes from the Jefferson Monticello website. I'm sure it was, but you neglected to look further down the page, where they explained which portions of the quotation are spurious and which portions derive from what Jefferson actually wrote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:46 PM (That was directed to Ebbie.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:46 PM Perhaps you should consider reading further, and with an open mind, rather than stopping as soon as you read something that is counter to what you already believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM That exact quote comes from the Jefferson Monticello website. monticello |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Ebbie Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:29 PM "... have a morbid fascination with what MAKES people become liberalish or conservatish...... how can we look at the same data and go such divergent ways?" Bill D "...the desire to live your own life the way you want to, and the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to. The former is the individualist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the right, and the latter is the collectivist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the left." Tacon "...the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to" is epitomized by the anti-choice policies, anti-gay marriage policies, and "America is a Christian nation - love it or leave it" rhetoric, etc. *of the Right* Tia I begin to have a glimmer of understanding as to why USian liberals and conservatives share little common ground. Instead of travelling along parallel ways we start back to back and go opposite directions. Kind of like dueling. Tac's reasoning made me sputter; it is so counter to the facts as I perceive them. Tia has it exactly right. |
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Subject: Spurious quotations From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:24 PM Be careful about lifting quotes from the Internet, Olddude. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.That has not been found anywhere in Thomas Jefferson's writings. It has been identified as spurious, and indeed the words "inflation" and "deflation" as applied to the economy were not even invented until after Jefferson's lifetime. See Suzy Platt, ed., Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations Requested from the Congressional Research Service (Washington D.C.: Library of Congress, 1989; Bartleby.com, 2003). I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.That's a paraphrase of a statement Jefferson made in a letter to John Taylor in 1816. Here's the full sentence: "And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, Monticello, 28 May 1816. Ford 11:533. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.This a misquotation of a comment by Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes. What he actually said was, "Bank-paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs." - Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, Monticello, 24 June 1813. Ford 11:30. |
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Subject: Economics and the Mudpit From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM We don't have "free enterprise, Tac... We have a socialistic system that has been devised to let the Fat Cats win 'um all... There has to be a level playing field to have "free enterprise"... What we have are cooked books and cooked laws... Nuthin' free about that... I can't believe we agree about something, Bobert. It's not exactly socialistic, but it's a kind of socialistic economics just as fascism is a form of socialism. It's been called corporatism, and it's the form used by the fascist governments of the 1930s, and favored by the Obama administration and the Democrat party today. In a corporatist system, corporations are controlled by the state "for the good of the people." The government gains control, which is what statists want, and the corporations gain government monopolies and protection both monopolistic and financial (bailouts, etc.) Small businesses cannot compete because of all the special deals granted the corporations and all of the regulations imposed on small business, and the economy (and therefore the people) suffer. Free enterprise is what made the American economy great, and we have not had free enterprise for a long time. Whenever government gets into bed with business, just as when government gets into bed with religion, at least one of them always ends up raping the other. BTW, go to the top and click on "start new thread" then you'll have some options on the left to choose from... One will be "BS"... Chick on it an' you'll be rockin' n' rolling in the Mudpit.... Thanks. "Mudpit" is an appropriate name for this area, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:05 PM We never learned a thing from the founding fathers: "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:01 PM Actually since the dust bowl we had laws to regulate the financial sector and they worked for 3/4 of a century. Right before the collapse of the banks this time the SEC was watered down to the point where their lawyers were going to kinkos to use the copy machine because they didn't have a working one in the DC office (I read that post from one of the attorneys working for the SEC) Their budget was axed. There was this thought that banks could regulate themselves and learned from past mistakes .. well that was a trillion dollar plus gamble for the taxpayer that cost us all. That coupled with two expensive wars and we are now in the situation we are in. It is not really about new laws, it is about enforcement of what we had for 3/4 of a century .. when the government choose to ignore what worked, then we all had to pay the price or watch the dust bowl lines again occur. Mis-management by all parties, gov and private sector |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 30 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM We don't have "free enterprise, Tac... We have a socialistic system that has been devised to let the Fat Cats win 'um all... There has to be a level playing field to have "free enterprise"... What we have are cooked books and cooked laws... Nuthin' free about that... BTW, go to the top and click on "start new thread" then you'll have some options on the left to choose from... One will be "BS"... Chick on it an' you'll be rockin' n' rolling in the Mudpit... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM That ("it's because of unrestrained free enterprise") is the Democrat party line Bobert is parroting above. Actually, for the last 30 years we've had more and more government control of corporations and economic matters, corporatist government meddling, which those on the other side would say is the cause (along with massive government spending) of the current economic problems. But that's an entirely different issue belonging in a different thread, as is the argument about the "Fairness Doctrine" and similar proposals for utopian control over speech. |
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Subject: Starting new thread in the BS/Non-Music forum area From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:39 AM An And incidentally, I have no idea how to start a new thread in the BS/Non-Music forum area. Is that a division that's made by the Moderators? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM What has happened, Tac, is that we have had 30 years of allowing thr free markets to police themselves and all it has done is create a bunch of bad cops and unprecedented corporate corruption and a massive redistribution of income away from the working class to the monied class... Same things that we are seeing today in Egypt could easily happen here in the US... There is always a breaking point... BTW, also during the last 30 years of conservative rule (not governance) the US has dropped in every good category and jumped up in the bad ones... This is what the right has done... Not the left... The left hardly gets any microphone time... The media is owned by the corporate right and it pushes it's story at US 24/7... Heck with economic control... Lets just level the playing field... Bill has spoken about "Fairness Doctrine" in the media... We haven't seen that since the 70s... That's all these Rabbis are saying... We do need balance and fairness... It's too bad that tyhe left has to scrape and scrounge and pool their money to be able to buy one friggin' ad in a newspaper in order to get a point across when the right has unlimited access... Bring back the Fairness Doctrine and I think things will work out because then people will have more information before forming opinions and making choices... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:19 AM Because, Tia, politics is a multi-axis matter. The division between left and right as it applies to politics generally refers to the degree of economic control by government over the people. What you're talking about is the morality or private behavior axis, i.e., how much control (and in what direction) government has over the personal activities of the people. Also, you're more familiar with the American divisions into what's loosely called conservative and liberal, but more accurately should perhaps be called traditionalist and utopian. In America, both traditionalists and utopians want collectivist control over individual freedoms. Libertarians prefer fewer controls on both axes, and generally favor individual freedom both in moral (personal activity) and economic areas. So in reality, both conservatives and social liberals have collectivist leanings in those areas. Many conservatives are moral traditionalists who would like people to conform to a certain version of morality in sexual matters. Many liberals are social utopians who would like people to conform to social utopian limits on speech. Luckily (I think), in America the First Amendment puts a check on both of them so we don't, as Canada does for example, have laws that criminalize the use of certain words or the expression of politically incorrect ideas, and we no longer criminalize various types of consensual sexual activity between adults. Accordingly, in America the big battle right now is in the area of economic control, which is not restrained by the First Amendment. If you want to talk about the moral/personal activity axis of collectivist control over individuals, you should start a different thread because it's really a different issue entirely, although once again, briefly answering your original question, it does reflect that basic conflict between wanting freedom for oneself and wanting to control others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:12 AM The behavior you describe is neither left or right, it is the actions of disturbed individuals committing criminal acts. It would be like taking a poll in a prison to determine the political views of each murderer. The conclusion , they are all right, or they are all left hence everyone from whatever side is a murderer. However, that is what the media does today. Makes great cover stories. Fact is, criminal behavior exists and did long before any political hate peddling. The difference today, we as a nation have dumbed down and actually believe that stuff. I think we are on the same page as how this stuff all occurs anymore in the media and is immediately labeled political. Hence we solve no problems, create animosity between good people and the rancor continues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Smedley Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:27 AM Tia's points seem especially pertinent and it would be interesting to see a response from Taconicus (whose characterisation of left/right is so American......). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:20 AM One of the reasons I hate the media today. Everything from all sides is just so distorted that it makes me want to scream. I hear this stuff about the tea party movement. Although I do not agree with them in politics at all I have neighbors and friends that support them and what those people are saying it is hard to disagree with. Who doesn't want lower taxes and more jobs. Good people and bad people come in all walks of life, across all political parties, across all religions and non religions. Yet the media presents them as gun toting crazies, likewise Fox news will banter the term progressive around like it is a dirty word. Yet when one looks back at history, great things came out of the progressive movement, like new laws against child labor etc ... again that is now a term of hate that is passed around like a pot of coffee. Sooner or later, we need to wake up as a people and look for areas that bring together answers for complex problems or simply fail as a nation. To continue to embrace the hate that blasts back and forth on all sides is counter productive to America and labeling people via politics is a bad as labeling people by race .. I think anyway. The new media today embraces the hate messages because of its entertainment value. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:12 AM The problem, Ol-ster, is that no one here is talkin' about messin' with folks Bill of Rights... Face it, there are limitations on the 1st amendment... That is a given... The example that is most often given is that people do not have the "right" to endanger others by yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire... People don't have the right to threaten one another with violence... Those are both crimes that society purdy much universally agrees with... I mean, all we are talkin' about here is accepting the fact that "speech" is a tool that can and has been used to whip people up into a lather and commit violence against other people... It really doesn't matter if it was Hitler using his words to get the brown-shirts to go out and terrorize Jews or the KKK using words to get a bunch of their supporters to go out and shoot into a crowd at an anti-Klan rally in Greensboro, NC in 1979 killing 5 innocent people... With rights come responsibility... That is the cornerstone of any civilized society... This isn't any more about trashing your Bill of Rights then sane gun safety... I mean, there is a reason we don't put loaded Glocks in the baby's crib for baby to play with... Sanity is all that the Rabbis are asking for... B~ |
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Subject: Whittle on blaming conservatives and the Tea Party From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:08 AM Since you're interested in philosophy and psychology, Bill… Someone asked Bill Whittle whether the left was ever going to give up blaming conservatives and the Tea Party movement for violence in our culture. This is what he said. No, they're not going to give up. This is very clear--it's called prepping the battle space. The left's weapon is shaping the narrative. If you're going to run counter to the truth and common sense in so many areas you've got to have a consistent story and keep telling it. The Tea Party movement, as anyone who has ever attended a Tea Party rally can tell you, are the most decent, kind, gentle, normal people in the world, most of whom have never been to a political rally in their lives. So in order to destroy the Tea Party, you're going to first call them racist – well, that didn't really stick, so you're going to call them stupid – well, that didn't really stick… I know, we'll call them violent. So for the last two years, every time something goes wrong… A guy flies an airplane into a building: "He's a right-winger!" (Oops, no, turns out he's a left-winger.) A guy shoots at the White House: "He's a right-winger!" (No, turns out he's actually a left-winger.) A guy starts shooting in taking hostages at the Discovery Channel: "It's some some right-wing Tea Party nut!" (Whoops, no, turns out he's a left-wing radical environmentalist.) Someone tries to set off a car bomb in Times Square: "Probably a Tea Party nut angry at Obamacare!" (Uh, no, turns out he's an Islamist Jihadist.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:30 AM Oh yeah, and "you are either with us or with the Muslim terrorists". Yup, no coercion there. Oops sorry. That was sarcasm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:29 AM "the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to" is epitomized by the anti-choice policies, anti-gay marriage policies, and "America is a Christian nation - love it or leave it" rhetoric, etc. *of the Right* So what the heck are you talking about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:12 AM what MAKES people become liberalish or conservatish Two basic conflicting desires in the primate mind, Bill: the desire to live your own life the way you want to, and the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to. The former is the individualist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the right, and the latter is the collectivist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the left. The conflict between those two desires is comprised in the dynamic of all primate societies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:41 PM Liked the less silly post, Bill... And fir the record??? If ya ever wanted to hear some well thought out reasoning, ya can purdy much count on what ever Bill says if I ain't around to say it first... ****grin**** B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:36 PM ooops... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:36 PM By the way... I have a morbid fascination with what MAKES people become liberalish or conservatish...... how can we look at the same data and go such divergent ways? oh...and 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:35 PM Well, Ol-ster, then if you think the only way to bring sanity into the equation is to boycott their advertisers the guess again... Whatever gas medication they are sellin' on these shows don't really give a rat's ass if Ol-ster don't buy Gas-X... To them??? It's like, who is O-ster??? Hey, gang!!! Profits are up again this month so let's party..." This ain't about normal people here, Ol-ster... This is about folks who lookin' for a fight... And... ...they are armed to the teeth... I know these boys... I've had to live with 'um for the last 26 years of my life an' they is some messed up people... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Richard Bridge Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:34 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:26 PM gee...thread creep sure has taken this far afield from the Rabbis, hmmm? "Guilty, yer honor" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:24 PM "...so really, what does it matter what I say about it?" Well, I know that it is hard to make things better, but it's pretty easy to make things worse, so my 'goal' is to leave bits of the most sense *I* can make scattered about in hopes that some will detect glimmerings of reason...about HOW to debate, if not actual conclusions. I don't presume to actually change many minds... (at least not obviously ☺)... but I'd hope that I don't become a bad example of MY side to be quoted with scorn. (and I can sorta make music also, if simple autoharp stuff in 3-4 chords counts. I have been on Mudcat since the beginning, and 15 years ago, I mainly answered 'folk' questions and tried to explain what 'folk' was in my inimitable style...THAT is harder than explicating the difference between liberal and conservative.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM Bobster why I detest hate shows and speeches is that very reason. You bet it is wrong and you bet it is destructive. I just won't give up the bill of rights to stop it. They can say that stuff but if they make threats you bet they can be prosecuted for sure. Ya can't say i am going to kill so and so (doesn't have to be the president) they can be arrested. I wish people today would stop listening to that crap and just take it for what it is. But i live in a dream world I guess. The only thing a person can do is, not listen to it, and if you do, then take action against it by writing the networks and the sponsors for the shows. hey Howard Stern may say he moved to sirus radio cause he wanted to , the fact is his sponsors started leaving the sinking ship cause people started complaining about his antics. That is the fact. We give people like Rush air time and publicity and they revel in it, the more people yell the more they like it cause it only makes them richer and gives them more press. Hitting the sponsors with I won't buy your product for sponsoring that hate show, that works. But I sure am not going to toss out the constitution because people say things I detest either. That is no solution my brother |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:51 PM Well, I came close enough... Massanutten Military Academy, Class of '65... Back then, military schools weren't no picnic like they are today... This was basic training with a few classes thrown in... The army was takin' 4 year ROTcies and putting them right into 2nd Lieutenants and shippin' 'um off to Nam within' 6 months of graduatin' 8 Massanutten grads were killed in Vietnam... One recently retired as a 2 star general... This is my background and based on what we went thru8 back then it weren't all that much different than what any marine was going thru... Just alot longer fir us... So, yeah... I understand military... Ain't no Hollywood... Ain't no story book... That is what scares me about a sub-culture that alot of you don't know... This ain't Bobert's conspiracy theory here.;.. Beee-zer backed me up on this... Ya'll can say what ya'll think you need to say but there are one heck of alot of folks out here in rural America that ya'll might find frightening... 100% patriots... White... Hate Obama... Hate the government... Hate, Hate...Hate... Where's this all coming from??? I mean, these people don't read anything... They listen to Rush and they watch Beck and that's all they need... Now we go back to Sgt. Haney... Heck, Sgt. Haney is now Glen Beck... He's got yer attention... There's something about folks screaming in yer face that makes that moment every more memorable... I mean, I can't remember what I had for breakfast this mornin' but clearly remember Sgt. Haney... That's the game here... It's like driving rock 'n roll... It is memorizing to people... They get all tranced-up...They say the same stuff... "Someone ougtta kill that nigger"... "Someone oughtta kill that Commie"..."Someone oughtta kill that Jew"... "Someone oughtta kill that ___________"??? I mean, this is insanity.... It *************all***************** starts with speech.... There is not one single3 war in the history of mankind that did not begin with speech... Glen Beck & Co. are using speech to create an entire sub culture that is ready and willing to fuck you up if you don't think like the way they want you to think... That, my fiends, is reality... Yeah, we can say that folks have a perfect right to say this or that but when this or that is about killing other people then in a country founded on everyone's pursuit of happiness then letting propagandists who are preaching violence and killing access to our country's publicly owned airwaves seems to be well on the side of pure wrongness... But ya'll on the right... Have at it... Hope that the tables don't turn on you and you find yourselves on the wrong side of the armed camp... B~ |
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Subject: Mistaken ideas about the military From: Taconicus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 09:04 PM Jeri wrote: I think those who have never been in the military tend to believe things about the military based [on] stuff they've heard. Indeed. I remember when I saw the (brilliantly crafted, but very manipulative) film American Beauty. At the very beginning the viewer is told that the protagonist will die, but not who kills him. But I guessed right away--correctly--who the murderer was. I thought it was the guy who was supposed to be the retired Marine officer, but the reason I thought he was the killer was that he was so completely different from anyone I'd ever met in the military that I figured he was obviously a psychotic murderer masquerading as a veteran. Of course, my mistake was that I didn't realize his "psychotically repressed-homosexual killer" personality was merely what the typical Hollywood writer/director/producer thinks is typical of high-ranking military officers. So I was right, but for the wrong reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM Yeah, Jer... They are... For every hour they get of UCMJ they get a 100 hours of Sgt. Haney yelling in their face... Guess who wins that one??? BTW, Sgt. Haney ain't a made up guy... I had more than my fill of him... He was the biggest jerk I ever knew in my entire life and he was in my face more than anyone I ever knew... Yo, Tac... Check out my latest against Chuckie K... You won't have any trouble figuring out who I am... I go there and bust the Chuck-ites, too... BTW, Chuckie K is a light weight who knows nothing about economics and that's a bad thing these days... Check out his latest discussion on Obama... Might be enlightening... I ain't the only one that sees Chuckie as a lightweight... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Jeri Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM In basic training, they taught a bit about the UCMJ and following LEGAL orders. Leadership schools through the years taught more. I believe that all military people get some sort of UCMJ training. As a medical person, if someone told me to go out and find bad guys to shoot, I'd be giving up my Geneva Conventions non-combatant status. If I refused the order, I'd be violating article 92 and could be prosecuted. I think those who have never been in the military tend to believe things about the military based stuff they've heard. Some know better, but some don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:34 PM Bill D, we obviously have different opinions about politics, but I agree with you totally about what you wrote above. I absolutely love discussing (debating, arguing) based on reason and especially with someone who doesn't mind my pointing out logical fallacies (and will acknowledge them). But that's almost impossible these days to do online. First of all, so many people get extremely emotional and can't seem to argue calmly, and also so many people can't keep to the subject: their arguments fly all over the place, and things get out of hand very quickly. Also, I mostly love music and I can actually make music, so I'm more likely to talk about that. When it comes to politics, arguing about it is often just as pointless as it is frustrating, since I'm not rich, not powerful, and have no control over what goes on politically in this country (or this world)--so really, what does it matter what I say about it? Why get upset (and make other people upset) arguing about it? I enjoy truly intellectual debates about it, but as I explained above, that's hard to do these days. There are few pundits on either side who really make an effort to be fair, but I do notice the ones who do. I respect Chris Wallace (slightly right) and Charles Krauthammer (decidedly right). I think they're good ones, and on the left there are people I respect, like Alan Colmes and Susan Estrich for instance, because they also try to be fair and they make me think and consider other views. I like Bill O'Reilly, because he seems to be honest and is very entertaining to watch, although he's not very big in the logic department, and he's a terrible blowhard - but he's fun to watch, kind of like a bull in a china shop. He's not really a conservative the way Buckley was, as far as I can tell he's more of a populist. And I know what you mean about William F. Buckley. He used to drive me crazy when I watched him as a teenager (I was very Democrat then), because I just knew what he was saying had to be wrong, but I could never figure out any good arguments or reasons to overcome his arguments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:23 PM Well, Jeri... Yeah, soldiers do have a responsibility to uphold the Geneva Convention and rules of war... With that said, there is a fine li8ne between being insubordinate and doing the right thing... Lots of folks in this country, especially in rural areas, have become Beck-ites and Bee-duyba-ell and I hear it all the time... BTW, I live in rural Page County, Va. where folks from DC come to visit, fall ion love with the beauty, buy houses and then in two years want the hell out... I might be able for you to actually talk with a couple who are "stuck" here because of the real estate market and cuss the day thet decided to move here... Redneck Nation is not a figment of my imagination... It is very real... It is armed to the teeth and pissed off to have a black man as president and it listens to Beck as if he were the 2nd Coming... As for Sgt. Haney... I can remember his words to this very day... The actual quote was, "If I was ordered to kill my mother, my father, my brothers and my sister I'd do it and never give it a second thought"... Something like that kinda hard to shake... Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM Bill you are comparing apples and oranges ... Buckley was a scholar who engaged in respectful discussion and debate to understand the issue and reach an acceptable result. These shows are shock value TV with people who make their living out of conflict. Completely different people and forums. Kinda like comparing Bill O'Reilly discussing 2nd Amendment and a "face the nation discussion on it" one is a real discussion on an important topic, the other is just over the top hype for ratings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM Taconicus-Thank you for noticing that I have tried to stick to issues... and I hope YOU noticed that I was not one who shortened your name...(your complaint did follow directly your remarks to me.) I see your posting history was very intermittent until recently, so I have not 'crossed words' with you until this. My major concern (having been a Philosophy major many years ago) is to sort out truth from fiction and good arguments from flawed logic & specious rhetoric. There are a couple of conservative posters here who also will try to follow this route, but sadly, I find few conservative pundits who will eschew BS for reason. If we were neighbors, I could sit in front of a TV with you and point and explain in real time. I don't know what you watch/listen to, but Rachel Maddow & Lawrence O'Donnell largely try to at least have their facts lined up and make coherent arguments, whether one agrees with their conclusions or not. I would LOVE to know...from anyone, not just Taconicus... which conservative pundits might be trying to make sense instead of 'points'. (I was watching Bill O'Reilly pontificating to Chris Wallace on Fox the other night, and it 'seemed' to me Wallace was squirming as he tried not to call O'Reilly down for the BS he was spouting. Wallace had just tried to clarify and calm some issue, and he obviously wasn't making any headway. I 'think' Wallace might be one who would like to be part of a 'sane' conservative program if he could.... much as Joe Scarbourough and Par Buchanan have toned down their rhetoric in the last few years. [Joe used to be one of my major gripes, and I think he was ummm... 'encouraged' to do so at the time. Now he is right of center, but reasonably .... reasonable.] Buchanan is 'almost' so until you hit certain hot buttons.) I miss William F. Buckley... he made me WORK to find flaws in his logic and approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:58 PM Military personnel are taught to follow legal orders, they are also trained to NOT follow illegal orders. You tell a Navy Seal to go kill everyone in the village and you will hear NO Sir I cannot and will not follow that order sir it is illegal sir.. Those that would follow an illegal order will face the same criminal prosecution as those who gave it. Most soldiers do know the difference. But like everywhere else there are bad soldiers also from time to time that we hear about |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to obey only legal orders. I don't know to what extent enlisted men and women would be excused from liability for following an illegal order (they might be excused for assuming the order was legal) but I know that officers are expected to know the difference, and they would be held responsible (and be punished) for obeying an illegal order that caused them to commit a crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Jeri Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM Bobert, this is what I was replying to: "In the military you are taught to obey regardless of the orders... The military isn't democracy... You obey orders... Period... I had a Sargent (Haney) once tell us that if he was ordered to kill his mother he'd do it... That is obedience..." There ARE people who believe what you said, that soldiers HAVE to follow orders, no matter if they're illegal or legal. The problem is that they're dumb enough to believe that. I don't think that we're disagreeing on much. I think that people should be held accountable for what they do, no matter who told them to do it. The disagreement comes with how much responsibility the people telling them, or hinting about what they should do have. I'm not ready to see other people as responsible for a person's actions. People can be influence to hate someone, but if a person can kill someone just because Beck or Limbaugh tells them to, they probably should be under supervision 24/7. Then we get back to woulda/shoulda/coulda noticing when somebody's gone over the edge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:34 PM Actually Bee-d, people have been convicted under 18 USC § 871 (and their convictions sustained) for saying the President ought to be killed, or for saying they'd like to kill him. So go ahead and report them--if you really heard such a thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM I can't speak for Bobert, but I also live in Bubbaland, albeit a different part, and I think I know what he's talking about when he says its denizens "threaten to kill Obama". It's not direct threats as in "I'm planning to kill..." or "I will kill..." but more "I'd like to kill..." or "I wish somebody'd kill...". Technically, I guess such statements aren't threats in the legal sense, but the underlying current of of anger and intolerance is there just the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: olddude Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:20 PM The whole problem is there are just dumb people who don't realize that these shows and those types of people are just in the shock reality TV business. They just can't see it for what it really is. Are the networks right to put this stuff on under the idea that it is politics. Hell it isn't politics it is shock TV. kinda like Jersey Shore but instead of drunk twenty year olds we have Beck and Lindbagh, Bill Mahr ect ... trying to out shock one another for ratings. WE give them too much publicity I think. Kinda like thinking the "real housewives of NY" represents a real housewife of New York ... eee gads |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Jeri Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:13 PM I deleted it, Richard, as well as my post following it. Ethnic slurs are out of bounds. This thread currently has a subject that is NOT altered by trolling. Taconicus doesn't need to defend himself, if you'd called him "nigger" and he is white, if you called him "rag head" and he is Israeli, if you'd called him "Tonto" and he was Mexican, it would still be unacceptible. Bobert, what I said about the military is true, no matter who you're living with. I do think people are incited by jerks, but I also think the world would be better if they were expected to take responsibility for their own actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:07 PM I live right in the middle of them ... and they routinely call black people niggers, threaten to kill Obama I don't believe you, Bobert. Where is it you live? Not in any part of America I know of, if you're telling the truth, and I've been all over the country. Threatening to kill Obama (the President) is a federal crime (a felony per 18 USC § 871) and you should've (and from your post, I'm confident you would have) reported them, if it really happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Richard Bridge Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM OK - repost. If I was modded, mod, PM me. @Tac. Tac, if your objection to being called taco is because it sounds Mexican, your objection requires you to defend it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck... From: Taconicus Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:59 PM Doesn't matter where I'm from; calling someone taco, beaner, wop, kike, slope, spic, etc. is definitely a derogatory slur and usually meant to be offensive, though I'm willing to believe that those who called me that above didn't purposely mean it that way--aside from Richard Bridge, who seems to be being purposely malicious. |
