Alternative Folk Awards

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 02:12 PM

yes but part of the reason that traditional is more part of mainstream culture is the fact that the expertise that pub entertainers have is considered infra dig this side of the Irish Sea.

Some folk dj's flatly refuse to play original work by people who gig pubs.

Its a class thing Dick. These people think we're their inferior. Is it jealousy when we go down well, or suceed with an audience they would die in front of. I dunno. Stopped caring years ago. I just accept the fact.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 01:54 PM

I may have mis interpreted what Al is saying, but this is what i think he is saying... a really outgoing performer with a versatile repertoire, can play folk clubs and also play in working mens clubs and pubs and still captivate a non folk audience, but that most people who play in folk clubs are limited with their repertoire and presentation,and are lost outside the folk revival.
I have seen some exceptions, one was john foreman playing to a caravan and camping club, all his one liners appeared spontaneous and he went down a storm.
on another occasion Andy Kenna [who was on before me] and myself managed to win over a hostile pub audience at lancaster maritime festival, when other folk performers had given up.
but we are taking about two different things, Idont doubt CARTHYS AND JIM MORAY HAD A GOOD GIG, but those people were there specifically to see them, being able to entertain a no folk pub audience is different, in fact i did it last night, but in ireland it is easier because tradtional music is more part of the mainstream culture than it is in england, but i had to take a different approach than the normal folk club approach[i still did some serious and social comment songs]

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 01:46 PM

I can't recollect attacking Spiral Earth. anyway, who am I to mount an attack on anyone?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 01:36 PM

Of course you also right that recording has never been easier. You can buy a twenty four track digital recorder and burn cds off for less that five hundred quid these days. Brilliant! and good quality musical instruments at entry level have never been cheaper.

That's more like it! The internet is also a major resource - type in nearly any song you can think of and someone's put their version on youtube.

You might not see it on the telly but it is out there.

Wouldn't it be great if some new music and musicians emerged, someone who'd attack folk music from another direction.

Well I reckon it is, some of whom are nominees for the Spiral Earth awards. It's one of the reasons why I'm bemused at your attacks Al. I think you've been firing at the wrong targets...

Pete.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 12:20 PM

well of course guest you are right, there are no absolutes.

Its a schizoid sort of thing. I always knew when I was doing both sorts of gigs, that both sides were missing out.

Easy enough to see what the plebs are missing out on - their cultural roots etc.

I always felt the prole musicians though had SO MUCH that the folkie crowd took no cognisance of. And i felt that folk music was poorer for that.

Of course you also right that recording has never been easier. You can buy a twenty four track digital recorder and burn cds off for less that five hundred quid these days. Brilliant! and good quality musical instruments at entry level have never been cheaper.

However just perambulating in my senior years round the open mics, folk clubs etc, pub gigs - I find this sullen acceptance that all of this brilliant music will just languish and stay here - subterranean almost. And hand on heart - do the Transatlantic Sessions move anyone - except to boredom? Wouldn't it be great if some new music and musicians emerged, someone who'd attack folk music from another direction. You often see it in the clubs - but never on the telly.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 11:35 AM

I think quite a few of us play in fringe sessions at pubs during festivals and have had the experience of an audience gathering round. Very often people will come up and say that they've not enjoyed listening to something so much for a long time, and they weren't aware that this kind of thing existed.

It's perhaps that some folk don't realise things exist unless they're on television, and these are often those who wouldn't dream of going to a folk gig.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 11:28 AM

This "isolation" business - what do you mean, exactly? Are you suggesting that everyone should play music that is manufactured with the intention of appealing to the widest possible cross section of people? If so, I can think of very few songs that 'everyone' likes and even fewer acts where 'everyone' likes their entire repetoire. And where's the room in this for variety and innovation and progress and minority taste? Or is even thinking of such things elitist? What are you suggesting that musicians should be doing as an alternative to what they are doing? As far asI can see, there's more variety of music out there than ever and there were some brilliant albums out this yaer in all sorts of genres and styles - whether the people making them are getting by is another matter - a lot more people seem to be doing it for the love of the music rather than to be jobbing musicians. I reckon that's a good thing, unless you think that all musicians should be able to do a set of 'classic' pop and rock standards at the drop of a hat - whether they want to or not. You do lots of sniping at people who might have middle class fans and haven't 'paid their dues' (whatever that means). But what do you want instead? Imagine for a moment that I'm really dense and you have to spell it out to me simply and clearly. Then I might understand what you're saying, Al. I know what I want - and that's to hear music that moves me. Whether on not it moves anyone else is up to them. But I don't think we should try to impose any sorts of imaginary absolutes on musicians or listeners even if we could, which we can't.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 09:55 AM

Well I'm sucked out - along with the 95% of the population. I'm accused of ranting and abused if I have a divergent opinion about folk music.

Theres no conversation here. But remember what goes around etc. Next time they close down one of your radio programmes, or one of your sacred cows goes bankrupt. This is the isolation from your fellow men that you sought out.

As you say Spleen, many musicians work in appalling conditions. probably the 95%, that i identify with. still we can always sing about what a bugger it is to be press ganged, and theres always bang up to date subjects youre allowed to sing about - like World War 1 and being transported for poaching.

And who knows perhaps one of your heroes will let you buy them a drink and they'll let you in on their new concept album, soon to be an unwatched programme on BBC4.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 09:11 AM

Ooops! Cross posted with Vic 'n' Twick who have said the same sort of thing more succinctly.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 09:07 AM

Can't comment about Courtney Pine but I suspect it's a similar story...

It is. Whilst Courtney Pine isn't really my cup of tea, you have to hand it to him that he's an accomplished and versatile musician who can turn his hand to all sorts of things - soul, funk and reggae as well as the jazz he's known for, as I discovered when I was dragged out to see him play live.

*********

I do wonder why Al thinks that being able to win over a hostile or indifferent crowd at one of the few remaining working men's clubs is some sort of barometer of whether you're any good, though. Is it about some sort of notion of musicians havinga duty to give the people what you assume they want? Personally, I think if someone wants to sit through another pissed-up rendition of Crystal Chandaliers and other boozy favourites in a dismal hall with crap acoustics, fair play to them. Don't be suprised when not everyone thinks of that as a good night out, though - including most ordinary working class British people, if the terminal decline of the WMC and of live music in pubs is anything to go by. And for the vast majority of musicians of any genre, being the background noise at a WMC isn't even on their radar, and why should it be? Mosrt musicians are going to look for audiences who might enjoy what they are playing, not some sort of macho, gladiatoral showdown. Or some illusory lower common denominator set list of tried and tested favourites. It the Beatles had done that chances are they'd still be playing Chuck Berry and Little Richard covers in some back room and we wouldn't have Revolver and Sgt Pepper and all the music that inspired.

Here's a for instance: Harp and a Monkey, whose album Folk Police put out in 2011, are gig monsters who'll play anywhere and always get asked back. One of the things they do is to gig in towns in the back of beyond that don't get many visiting bands. Even they don't make a point of doing these allegedly essential WMC style retro-gigs, though. And they probably tick a lot of Al's boxes - ordinary northern lads who write very hummable songs that actually say something.

*********

Drat. I seem to have allowed myself to get sucked in.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: evansakes
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 08:57 AM

Obviously the points I am trying to make are incommunicable to those with limited experience of life

Big Al, you're the one making all sorts of wild assumptions about people on the folk scene not having paid their dues or fulfilled various rites of passage in shitty pubs and workingmen's clubs. You don't have a monopoly on this. I'm sure many of us have been there, done that and written the book. For myself, I did the best part of a thousand gigs in these places over a ten year period (including every New Years Eve). Like you, I know what it's like to have a rat-arsed individual spitting in my face and bellowing out for Hi-ho Silver Lining etc. We played it too (of course) along with Johnny B Goode and all the others.....and everyone got up to dance (once they'd had enough to drink anyway). All this gave me the satisfaction of being a working musician and earning reasonable recompense....but it's not a scene I'd care to return to these days and not anything I'm particularly proud of either. It's certainly not anything I'd consider an essential apprenticeship for getting up onstage with an acoustic instrument and entertaining a listening audience in a folk club (as you seem to be implying)

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 08:56 AM

TwickFolk wrote:-
"Can't comment about Courtney Pine but I suspect it's a similar story."

Well, I can! Courtney is one of my great heroes. He came into jazz after playing in reggae and pop groups as a young man. Courtney Pine's interest in jazz was fostered when he participated in workshops run by John Stevens and although he is now known mainly as an outstanding jazz reedsman, he still plays reggae, soul and pop gigs. Listen to his Closer To Home album and try and convince me that parts of it are not the most sublime dance music. It was not all that long ago that he played a "home town" gig at the Brixton Astoria and there were not all that many people in their seats that night.....

So, I reckon that apart from Carthy, Gillian Welch and Courtney Pine, his list of non-danceable acts may be accurate.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: evansakes
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 08:31 AM

Big Al Whittle wrote -
"Carthy, Gillian Welch, Courtney Pine.

Can you imagine any of these people handling a new years eve gig, where people get up and boogie?"

To debunk another of Big Al's myths, Gillian Welch and her partner David Rawlings can do it too, Vic. A few years back I saw them with Buddy Miller's band running through a bunch of standards in a bar (including Chuck Berry's 'Nadine' and Dylan's 'Highway 61). Rawlings was playing electric guitar solos reminiscent of Eddie van Halen...

....and while I'm on, Gillian Welch wasn't automatically elevated into arts centres and theatres either. There was no silver spoon in her mouth or red carpet treatment. On her first visit to the UK she played pubs and small clubs in front of 40 or 50 people and worked her way up from there (I saw her at Dingwalls then Shepherd's Bush Empire then Hammersmith Odeon). It's all possible.....you just need need a shed load of talent coupled with the right attitude and a bit of determination.

Can't comment about Courtney Pine but I suspect it's a similar story.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 08:22 AM

Obviously the points I am trying to make are incommunicable to those with limited experience of life.

I'm done with trying.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:51 AM

Big Al Whittle wrote -
"Carthy, Gillian Welch, Courtney Pine.

Can you imagine any of these people handling a new years eve gig, where people get up and boogie?"

Well, as it happens, Martin Carthy spent New Year's Eve last night playing for his daughter's Motown Ceilidh at London's South Bank where hundreds of people danced all night and the whole thing was a huge success.

So, yes, Mr. Whittle, it is very easy to imagine that people boogie the old year away with two generations of Carthys - because very many were doing just that last night.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:47 AM

You might be right Spleen, but it's perhaps best to move the thread drift to this thread

I'd echo Crowsisters comments also. Kinda got lost in the above but one of the good things about these awards is it introduces you to new artists - I'm very impressed with Emily Barker & the Red Clay Halo. Also very glad to see Rapunzel and Sedayne and Walsh and Pound in there.

PS - voting is open. Just done mine...

PPS - I agree with a lot of what you say about the BBC Big Al, but I don't think this is the right thread for it...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:43 AM

no leveller, if you are a republican, you believe in a republic, if you are an anarchist you believe the notion of a state to be undesirable, whether the state be a monarchy or a republic, leveller you cant have it both ways, you are eiuther an anarchist or a republican it is a contradiction to try and both at the same time.
as for the rest of your post it is similiar cods wallop, i am not putiing folk lovers into boxes , but i am saying that most folk music lovers are middle class.
go to a working mens club ask them what kind of music they like unfortunately most of them will not say matty groves or the famous flower of serving men, and you know it, start being honest.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:39 AM

well its a new year. lets hope all of us is good with whats going on. or as good as possible.

Best of luck to all award winners - I'm sure they're all richly deserving people.

What would you like us to say about the Spiral Earth Awards?

Hip Hip Hooray! that sort of thing....?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:19 AM

So do we need a new thread about the Spiral Earth folk awards? And dare I mention that the FATEA Awards have just been announced, too?

PS - Cheers for your comments, Crowsis. Hope all is good with you...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM

perhaps folk music is something else. Something that folks do, in every age. no real pattern to it.

I've tried that on various occasions, & on at least one of which (during your sabbatical as I recall) even wished you onside - see the legend that is the 1954 and All That thread. More recently I had the epiphany that was Steamfolk, which I clarified in a couple of magazine articles, but even so the orthodoxy reacted with customary hostility despite the essentially positive thrust of my thesis. Ho hum. Broadly I'd have to agree with you, especially with respect of the overall context & usage of music & musical experience in working class culture. I feel exactly the same way about folklore, which is also a bourgeois fantasy of lower class ill-educated superstitious ignorance yielding some curious capers worthy of taxonomy & taxidermy, what? Of course a broader analysis of all this only serves to underline the futility of folk anyway: part academic fantasy, part religious comfort blanket, part DIY MOR reactionary pop nostalgia, part cultural autism, part self-styled artistic movement - but in any case (let's face it) wholly irrelevant to the majority of English Dwelling Human Beings of any class who really have better things to worry about. This makes your own position all the more worrying, Al - at least when it comes to the reality of Folk in the UK & beyond, which, one would hope, is examplified by accepting & supporting one another in a spirit of overall camaraderie no matter how we might see fit to approach 'it' as individuals. In this respect I'd say it's a matter of looking after the pence & letting the pounds look after themselves. At least that's the ideal...

The reality is somewhat different; Personal Preference is not a gateway to righteousness, and Anarchy (like Atheism) must be all inclusive. Believe it or not, this is what I strive for in life: it's called the Bigger Picture, which in practical terms means stepping out of the Fishpond of the UK Folk Scene and taking a dip in the Ocean from time to time just to keep things real, or else to stop from going completely insane. Even here on the Lancashire Coast, one might get a sense of the truly global as the Irish Sea meats with the Atlantic and all points beyond. Meanwhile, in the folk pond, it looks like someones forgot to turn the aerator on again and things are getting more than a little stagnant; the big fish are bullying the little fish in a fight for precious oxygen & resentment grows more mean spirited by the minute. At the end of the day though, all I'm truly bothered about is going to bed with a smile on my face, which isn't too difficult in the UK Folk Scene, just I'd really rather be laughing with them, rather than laughing at them, but it's a difficult one at times as things become increasingly, and painfully, negative & resentful. Are we downhearted? Not a bit - just a little disappointed really, given the reasons we have to celebrate here & nary a fecking word!

S O'P (New Year's Day 2012, listening to Purcell Sonatas of 3 Parts in a mood of general, though melancholic, optimism. Or is it more one of resignation?)

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 05:01 AM

"how can you be an anarchist and a republican at the same time that is bullshit"

You're displaying your ignorance I'm afraid, Dick. Start by reading Peter Marshall's 'Demanding the Impossible' and then move on to Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin. Then, if you think that the old class structure still exists, talk to a demographer, if you can stand the smirk that will appear on his/her face. It would seem that the last 30 years have passed you by. As for the idea that you can put folk-lovers in boxes, it's simply ludicrous.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 10:35 PM

Its the Reithian thing really - the idea that the posh can do everything, so they should get first dibs.

Just this Christmas, some Charlie got the idea that Darcy Bussell in middle age, could do Ginger Rogers routines. That level of arrogance and ignorance, its unfathomable. My wife was the ballroom champion dancer of Nottingham. her training started when she was three. Why are we underclass so unworthy of respect...?

I guess its no wonder that growing up in this culture of imperious superiority - you guys really CAN'T think what if...........

But honest to God. it explains so much. I played hundreds of venues in my career. And I can honestly say - however badly I went down - Martin doing the acts I've seen him do, would go down even worse.

Its huge rift between English folk music and English people, using your rules. And the future is basically hopeless.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 08:05 PM

well the BBC had a big influence on me. Not all for the good, but I certainly learned a lot of folksongs as a child in singing together/ And it showed me lots of other folk music over the years.

The trouble is that society has changed. Democratised or something. The BBC though is still the preserve of nobs and they're getting it wrong - badly wrong.

they've stopped serving people.

How many programmes or radio stations are there for old people in residential homes? They're economically unimportant so they get nowt.

How many programmes about tradtional jazz. Trad jazz clubs are really crowded these days. Nothing about the young people playing it.

And folk music.......

Look this all of it - no bitterness, no angst....just supposing Ewan, Martin, Bert, Cecil....got it wrong.
perhaps folk music is something else. Something that folks do, in every age. no real pattern to it.
For anarchists ...you lot are very authoritarian.

Think outside the box. It won't hurt. You may end up enjoying the experience.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

Antagonistic? Not a bit of it, BAW - just responding in kind really. And with you it's not so much ideas as ideology - heavy handed Folk Law that operates on the principle of if you say something often enough it becomes true). Not good - especially when the sort of thing you're proposing would be complete anathema to a left-field Dylan-hating post-revivalist traddy like me. And the most influence the BBC has ever had on my Folk Life (apart from The White Heather Club, natch) was back when I used to watch Bagpuss re-runs with my daughter in the early 80s, though I must admit to being inspired by the occasional adaptation of M R James (Jonathan Miller's Oh Whistle and I'll Come to You is especially cherished) or episode of Dr Who (The Daemons). Now ITV on the other hand - they gave us Children of the Stones - seminal Folk Horror that lingers yet; they even had Wyrd Morris Dancers in that...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 02:55 PM

I'm really puzzled why you are all so antagonistic? Am I not ALLOWED to have these ideas? To express them....?

I'm not saying folk music has to be working class - but somethings missing somewhere when its not. Like a faultline. I'm surprised more of you don't sense it.

I can only put it down to the fact that you are so in thrall to the aliens from Planet BBC, that your critical faculties are a bit screwed up.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 02:16 PM

oh no not bob dylan, more bullshit, the man wrote 3 or 4 very good songs, nicked one from someone else, borrowed dylan thomas name, and was nothing other than a popstar who couldnt sing but could write and did write about six memorable songs.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:41 PM

Yo, CS! Good to see you flying by this spot of seasonal mayhem & ceremonial misrule: it's hoose agen hoose and town agen town - and if you see a man, knock him down (but don't hurt him!).

*

Folk music is waiting for its TS Eliot.

For your generation you've already had him in the form of Bob Dylan - and you've all been sucking on his impotent middle-class dick ever since. The times they are a changing... if only!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:25 PM

There was a group of anarchists who used to go in the same pub as I did. They had a meeting to draw up a constitution!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:14 PM

A Writer an anarchist and a republican, what does it make you, a subversive and a contradiction, how can you be an anarchist and a republican at the same time that is bullshit.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:09 PM

"I think they re-defined it, because by definition - they have ownership of it."

It seems to me you're falling into the trap of saying that because folk music was working-class music, working-class music is therefore folk music. If that's your point of view, I can begin to understand your argument. However that's very different from "folk music" which, as someone said earlier in the thread, is an artistic movement.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:08 PM

an out moded idea of class.
right, start going to working mens clubs, you will not see many people from the middle or upper classes, few will be reading william morris or karl marx or freidrich engels or the mao tse tung or even ewan macColls journeyman between the different acts.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM

Dick I'm not pretending anything - I think you're basing your entire argument on an out-moded idea of class. I suspect that you're declining to explain because you can't. Is your concept of class based on the job you do, wealth, education, where you live.....? I'm a professional writer and I earn a reasonable living, am largely self-educated and I'm an anarchist and a republican, so what does that make me? More to the point, what bearing does it have on my love of folk music?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:42 PM

I don't think you've quite grasped what I am saying.

I don't think the working classes abandoned folk music. Really at the coming of the music hall - rather than the radio.

I think they re-defined it, because by definition - they have ownership of it.

Anyway no point in arguing about it. You might be right, I might be wrong.

Put it this way though. I am quietly confident that the present crew will one day look as irrelevant to the general thrust of folk music as the neo-Georgians are to the history of Eng. Lit.

Folk music is waiting for its TS Eliot.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:22 PM

leveller, if you are trying to pretend that you dont know the difference between working class and middle class, I am afraid I have not got the time to waste on explaining something that you are pretending you do not know.
yes, I am n upper classfolk enthusiast, have you heard my shanty hooray henry

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:03 PM

This seems to have developed into a debate about class which, as far as i'm concerned, doesn't exist as portrayed here. Please tell me what you mean when you talk about middle class and working class (any upper class folk enthusiasts?).

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:02 PM

The working classes began to abandon folk music as soon as they could afford a wireless. The middle classes, by and large, won't touch folk music with a barge pole.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

Howard, he is right most folk audiences are middle class, so what?well its a fact.
it is an appropriate yardstick, its horses for courses, to pretend otherwise is dishonest.
because what i understand al to be saying is that most working class people are not interested in folk music , it is not the peoples music., and yet there is this myth that is perepetrated by some in the folk revival that folk music is working class music, the majority[not all] of the working class are not interested in it
most[not all] working class people are fed a diet of bums, tits, sport, and are not encouraged to be anything other than consumers of commercial music.
it is the nature of the capitalist/consumer system.
however,Howard I know something of your back ground, I know where you went to school etc etc, and i would call you fairly typical of most folk club audiences you are middle class, now that in my eyes is not a criticism ,just a fact.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 11:24 AM

"Al is correct, 9o per cent of the folk club performers would not be able to perform and entertain in a pub to a non folk audience."

I don't disagree, but so what? Most of them aren't attempting to do so. I don't suppose the Royal Philharmonic would be very good at entertaining a pub audience either. It's not an appropriate yardstick.

The problem with Al's argument is that he seems to dismiss any audience which is actually interested in folk music as not being "real folks". If they want to sit and listen to the music they must be middle-class and not worth bothering with. Of course, he knows nothing about their actual backgrounds.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Crowsis flying through
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 10:21 AM

Briefly dropping into MC this afternoon and so pleased to see this thread (albeit not much of the content, but I'll pass on that) highlighting the Spiral Earth alternative folk award noms.

Spleen, you must be proper chuffed at the Folk Police turnout, and deservedly so too, good job! A fledgling independent label, backing outsiders and refreshingly un-MOR folk musicians - including the lovely Rapunzel and Sedayne (playing you to some friends for my 'Longest Night' feast this year btw., and most appropriately atmospheric it was too).

If Mudcatters aren't fond of the alternative face of folk, I guess that's too bad. For me, I couldn't be more pleased, both for the music (which as SO'P said, has been long overdue a shake-up) and for some jolly lovely and hard-working people. Here's wishing you a wonderful musical year ahead!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 10:13 AM

people that resort to insults and telling people to feck off show the bankruptcy of their arguments.
Al is correct, 9o per cent of the folk club performers would not be able to perform and entertain in a pub to a non folk audience.
as i understand it what Jim moray is talking about is something slightly different the people who are going to see the carthys and jim moray are going there because they wish to see those particular artists.
or perhaps i have misunderstood the new years gig, jim please correct me if i am wrong.
Als point is correct, most at a guess 90 per cent of folk club performers have a repertoire that is only suited to folk club audiences, those who have, are generally those performers who have also worked different circuits, such as folk comedians, or people who have done working mens clubs or people such as th ex spinners, hughie jones etc, Or some of the irish performers who have worked irish pubs, and who have in their repertoire what folk club performers might consider hackneyed material, but which because it has entered the mainstream is popular with non folk club audiences , such as wild rover, kilgarry mountains dublins fair city, sloop john b, good night irene, etc

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:49 AM

Seems to me all the reasoned argument comes from me, and all the bitterness and personal abuse issues from your side.

Well I'll be off back to my bunker then. Carry on...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:42 AM

Yes indeed. And Django found his nightclub audiences garrulous and bloody annoying.

In those days - there was no option. technology was shit.

I wonder if any of these performance colleges do a course on how to set up a PA in a shitty pub with sound blocking structures hanging from the ceilings.

I couldn't do it after five years playing in folk clubs. But working mens club bands and country and western bands = by watching them I eventually learned.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

Mind you, I do agree with the "cutting edge" bit - sometimes folk can become a bit too "cosy" I suppose, yet on the other hand not everyone wants to do "fast and loud and in yer face and in a bunch of keys"

Horses for courses?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM

Yet didn't the Beatles pack up live gigs because they couldn't hear themselves play over the racket from a live audience?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM

"Why would anyone want to do a "tough pub gig"? And why should crowd control be thought a more desirable skill than musicianship which can command an audience's attention and respect?"

If you'd done it - you wouldn't need to ask. Folk music that doesn't have commerce with real "folks" - is something else. Why did some of these songs survive and some just fall into disuse, and have to be disinterred from libraries.

its the reason those 60's bands that had been to hamburg in the Beatles era had that cutting edge.

Despite the abuse heaped on me in this thread. I have no bitterness towards you - more sort of compassion.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 08:02 AM

Why would anyone want to do a "tough pub gig"? And why should crowd control be thought a more desirable skill than musicianship which can command an audience's attention and respect?

As for "bitterness" and "reasoned argument" - I suggest Al goes back and re-reads his previous posts, not just on this but on pretty much every other thread he's contributed to.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 07:40 AM

PS Yes I REALLY believe none of them ever did a tough pub gig. And I'm pretty sure they couldn't. Why would they even know the technical stuff you have at your fingertips to eat a room like that?

Seems to me all the reasoned argument comes from me, and all the bitterness and personal abuse issues from your side.

Nevertheless, soul of courtesy and the milkman of human kindness that I am - I wish you all a happy new year.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 06:14 AM

where there is discord, let me bring light!

happy new year!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM

Is it worth pointing out that the Spiral Earth Awards have nothing to do with the BBC? As the thread title suggests, we're talking about something independent here where such projects as the three that I've been involved in to a greater or lesser extent (50% of Rapunzel & Sedayne, 5% of Oak, Ash, Thorn, 3% Woodbine & Ivy Band) might find themselves deservedly nominated. But not around here, where The Real Folk Police (i.e. those sixty-something singer-songwriters who think it's still 1965) will determinedly tell you it's not Proper Folk because it doesn't appeal to their fantasy demographic of who the Proper Folk are. As for professional, whilst I've been paid handsomely for my work over the years, I would never consider myself a professional folkie, and certainly not with respect of any of the projects featured on the Spiral Earth Awards, which are very much real labours of real love, which is why our resident Real Folk Police DCI's determination to piss all over them with his sour grapes is all the more irksome. Of course it's fine when one of his songs is up for a sycophantic middle-class BBC award, then threads are opened for transparant sycophantic middle-class vote rigging and everyone contributes with good humour and typical middle-class syncophantic back-slapping good-old-Al joviality. Over here, meanwhile, good-old-Al is busy stomping on lovingly made sandcastles and kicking sand in the faces of those he perceives to be lesser mortals in a tantrum of inverted snobbery driven by an embittered elitism that really has no place in the merry world of folk cameraderie: where our achievements are applauded, and respect is always due, and we are all glass-half-full optimists and very happy indeed with our lot in life; appreciative of the fact that there will always be a diversity of horses for a diversity of courses. This is, after all, The Music That We (supposedly) Love...

So please, Big Al, do us all a favour and feck off already with your inane and pityful whinging - not only it is undignified, cringeworthy, and grotesque, but it's entirely misplaced in a realm where people work very hard indeed for their art, their craft and whatever modest critical recognition they might garner simply because they believe (without compromise) that Traditional Folk Song has a contemporary relevance that is obviously lost on the likes of you, boyo. Best thing to do if you don't understand it, a) either ask nicely or b) shut the feck up and concentrate on what you do know, but for God's sake enough of the conspiracy theories because you really haven't a fecking clue what you're talking about.   

S O'P (Bleary & hungover after a very late & very fine session in one of the last remaining truly working-class flee pit folk clubs in the North West of England with some of the finest musicians & singers & punters to boot...)

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:10 AM

The funny thing is, in a couple of hours I'm off to London to play a NYE gig with Martin and Eliza Carthy in front of several thousand non-folkies who want to "get up and boogie". I anticipate that they'll cope with it fine, thanks.

Just saying...