National Folk Awards 2017

Subject: National Folk Awards
From: GUEST,bignige
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM

Having watched the Folk Awards on BBC Red Button last night,(and very good they were), that what was shown is a long way from what most folk clubs seem to offer.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM

Can of worms has just been opened...again, why of why ?

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 01:01 PM

1. Most folk clubs are primarily singers clubs
2. Most of the remaining organisers book "reliable" acts that they have booked before and won't take a punt on some new kid with only five or six years of festivals and concert venues under his/her belt

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 01:22 PM

.... which is why the clubs are dying, summed up in 2 sentences.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM

Folk clubs are usually very uncomfortable and full of wierdo loners.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 02:11 PM

I find that many folk clubs require that all be of like mind..if you are in the least different in your views, you are made to feel very unwelcome. I know a number of people who have had this experience and as a result, they don't go anymore.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 05:44 PM

Fortunately many successful clubs (eg Topic Folk Club - 60 years old last year) are more enlightened and, as well as booking more established artists, they 'take a punt on some new kid with only five or six years of festivals and concert venues under his/her belt'. In fact they 'take a punt' on young musicians with much less experience than that and see it as part of their role to encourage and support new talent.

They even welcome young people on their Committee shock horror!

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Apr 17 - 07:26 PM

I'd say that some posters are revealing more about themselves than about folk clubs.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,bignige
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 10:09 AM

Henryp, it only an observation, and a valid one IMHO. Anyone who watched the Folk Awards and thought right that looks goods lets try a Folk Club would probably end up being disappointed.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 01:06 PM

"From: GUEST,bignige - PM
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 10:09 AM

Henryp, it only an observation, and a valid one IMHO. Anyone who watched the Folk Awards and thought right that looks goods lets try a Folk Club would probably end up being disappointed"
hilarious, of course, what do you expect these awrds are about Commercialising music and taking it way from its roots, do you seriousaly expect brought up on a commercialised form of folk music people to understand or appreciate people who are making their own music for pleasure,your point rather exposes the myth that commercialing folk music brings more people to enjoy it, of course it doesnt, because what goes on in folk clubs or music sessions is the real thing[warts and all] the real thing is about people making home made music, not about commercialising the music so that agents and journalists can develop it into a hybrid that is palatable to people who are used to tin pan alley

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 01:35 PM

So you watched / listened to the programme, did you ?
If so, why, since you are apparently so against them ?
If not, how can you comment on it ?

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 01:54 PM

of course, what do you expect these awrds are about Commercialising music and taking it way from its roots, do you seriously expect people brought up on a commercialised form of folk music, to understand or appreciate people who are making their own music for pleasure,your point rather exposes the myth that commerciallisinng folk music brings more people to enjoy it, of course it doesnt, because what goes on in folk clubs or music sessions is the real thing[warts and all] the real thing is about people making home made music, not about commercialising the music so that agents and journalists can develop it into a hybrid that is palatable to people who are used to tin pan alley.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM

I have explained why I am against these awards, check out BBC FOLK AWARDS.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 02:15 PM

It is my opinion that standards need to be improved at grass roots level, I cannot see how these awards help that, certain folk clubs provide workshops, as do some festivals, in my opinion this is the way to try and improve performing standards, that as far as I am concerned is priority number one.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 02:38 PM

Yes, everyone gets it, Dick, and your priorities are admirable but there is room for everyone. Keep the awards. Lots of people do enjoy them.

DtG

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 03:20 PM

Shirley Collins up for Folk Singer of the Year and Best Album for Lodestar:

BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 Nominations:

Folk Singer of the Year

Daoiri Farrell
Jim Causley
Kris Drever
Shirley Collins

Best Duo

Josienne Clarke and Ben Walker
Megson
O'Hooley and Tidow
Ross Ainslie and Ali Hutton

Best Group

9Bach
Breabach
The Furrow Collective
The Gloaming

Best Album

Jarlath Henderson - Hearts Broken, Heads Turned
Jim Moray - Upcetera
Martin Green - Flit
Shirley Collins - Lodestar
Songs of Separation - Songs of Separation

Horizon Award

Daoiri Farrell
Fara
Ninebarrow
Talisk

Musician of the Year

John McCusker
John McSherry
Mohsen Amini
Rachel Newton

Best Original Track

Fragile Water by Nancy Kerr
If Wishes Were Horses by Kris Drever
Roll Away by Martin Green feat. Adam Holmes
Sounds of Earth by Jim Moray

Best Traditional Track
Courting Is a Pleasure by Jarlath Henderson
Echo Mocks The Corncrake by Songs of Separation
Van Diemen's Land by Daoiri Farrell
Willie Taylor by Julie Murphy

BBC Radio 2 Young Folk Award

Amelia Coburn
Charlie Grey and Joseph Peach
Eryn Rae
Josie Duncan and Pablo Lafuente

So all of the above - who apparently willingly participated in the event - not to mention those who turned up on the night, and who listened to or watched the programme - are all wrong and the GSS is right ? Nobody allowed even mildly to disagree or hold a contrary opinion ?

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 03:22 PM

There's just so much commercial pop music there ;-)

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 03:50 PM

"So all of the above - who apparently willingly participated in the event - not to mention those who turned up on the night, and who listened to or watched the programme - are all wrong and the GSS is right ? Nobody allowed even mildly to disagree or hold a contrary opinion ?"
Nobody is prevented from disagreeing.
Joeg , you to are entitled to your opinion I am entitled to mine

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 03:54 PM

Yes indeed Dick! I just find your suggestion that the folk award nominees are all from the commercial / pop end of folk (which I don't deny exists) out of alignment with the actual nominees - I found a few of them a bit too traddy for me (and I like some trad) :-)

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 07:40 PM

Irvine folk club, 50 continuous years last year , I believe, has all sorts of acts from young ( sunjay 23 yrs old... next week) and old, I mean well established ( Bob Fox... 2 weeks ago) It is not full of weirdo loners either. Houston folk club is a performers club, again not full of loner weirdos. Not all folk clubs are the same and many are thriving. The BBC folk awards is a showcase for current folk music and some recognition of the folk heritage, hence Norma Waterston last year, Ry Cooder and Al Stewart this year.

If there is no commercialisation to a degree then the artists ( whose skill level is phenominal nowadays) do not sell CD's or dowloads, do not get any air play, or show some booking agent at the opposite end of the country what is happening in the distance between Orkney and Lands end, do not stimulate us all to look at folk music in a different way or think, I am determined to improve even just a little.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 08:06 PM

Well said. As mentioned earlier the Topic in Bradford has a similarly diverse booking policy and that has ensured the club has continued to thrive and encourage new talent - some of whom have gone on to be short listed for, or won, awards.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 17 - 08:33 PM

I disagree with this statement
"If there is no commercialisation to a degree then the artists ( whose skill level is phenominal nowadays) do not sell CD's or dowloads, do not get any air play, or show some booking agent at the opposite end of the country what is happening in the distance between Orkney and Lands end, do not stimulate us all to look at folk music in a different way or think, I am determined to improve even just a little."
people can improve these days by going on to you tube, and getting lessons for free
many of us have been looking at folk music in diffrent ways but making money has not been the motive, it is because we are interested in the music and been determined to improve not because it means more money but through a pride in the job.
I could have made a lot more money if I had decided to sing popular music, i deliberately chose not to, because I WANTED TO SING MUSIC THAT I LIKED, AND THAT HAD SOME SOCIAL COMMENT .BEING COMMERCIAL DOES NOT STIMULATE ME TO THINK.
Ican think plenty and take on new ideas without being commercial, furthermore if i never had another gig again I would still play the music i love, that is why i chose folk music in the first place,it was not to make loads of money

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 04:27 AM

"I WANTED TO SING MUSIC THAT I LIKED, AND THAT HAD SOME SOCIAL COMMENT .BEING COMMERCIAL DOES NOT STIMULATE ME TO THINK".
THAT'S YOU - DOESN'T HAVE TO APPLY TO EVERYBODY.
AND YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE WITH A CAPS LOCK.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 04:35 AM

The idea that people performing at the Folk Awards do not play the music for their own pleasure too is surely off. My wife is friends with Eryn Rae's mother and Eryn has been playing fiddle since she was a tiny girl. Delighting audiences here in the Borders and obviously really enjoying herself at the same time. The idea that because she is then nominated for an award then it means she is somehow not grass roots is plainly absurd.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 05:19 AM

From what I have seen of nominees and the current folk scene, the Albert

Hall awards tended to be those who are singing playing and entertaining

for a living hence are professionals ~ travelling up and down the UK and

beyond and making, recording and arranging both traditional songs and

writing and rewriting songs and tunes classed as being in the

traditional style (not always my definition ~ whatever it is!)

The standards of musicianship are beyond belief and concert style ~

far removed from the folk club norms (still exist some brilliant folk

club guests btw) attitudes can be professional (make a living) and

others who simply enjoy learning songs, making songs, playing learning

an instrument entertaining at the club, and joining in and having a pint

All these factors are embraced in the current scene, it does mean that those currently being booked are being nominated for awards and basically good luck to them in their careers Kris Drever, Daoiri Farrell et al ~ good on yer all

Ray

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 05:21 AM

GSS, despite or perhaps because of many decades in his personal folk bubble actually knows very little of the folk scene and how it has developed, and continues to develop, to suit changing times, attitudes, technology and audience.

He is entitled to think what he wants, he is entitled to belittle or insult others who hold contrary views but he should not surprised that no one takes him seriously and sees him as the slightly eccentric uncle that sits in an armchair arguing with himself about the youth of today.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 05:44 AM

"The idea that people performing at the Folk Awards do not play the music for their own pleasure too is surely off."
I never said that.
"Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Morris-ey - PM
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 05:21 AM

GSS, despite or perhaps because of many decades in his personal folk bubble actually knows very little of the folk scene and how it has developed, and continues to develop, to suit changing times, attitudes, technology and audience.

He is entitled to think what he wants, he is entitled to belittle or insult others who hold contrary views but he should not surprised that no one takes him seriously and sees him as the slightly eccentric uncle that sits in an armchair arguing with himself about the youth of today."
    The only person being belittled or insulted here is me, by GUEST Morriss-ey.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 06:59 AM

Commercalisation, in my experience is not an incentive for good artistic creativity.
I will provide you now with a couple of examples of artistic innovation that had nothing to do with commercialisation, Davy Graham and his use of dadgad,charlie parker and his innovation of be bop.
here is a you tube interview with a relative of mine Nat Peck, explaining how the glenn miller band improved MUSICALLY after Miller died as it became less commercial.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FxGVtTdxAo Anyone that argues that comercialism encourages artistic creativity, is in my opinion misguided

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 12:14 PM

Sunday 9th April - BBC Four, 10.00pm :
"For the first time The Radio 2 Folk Awards are being televised with an hour long highlights package, a sign of the increased popularity of the once-maligned genre"
Enjoy !

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 12:48 PM

I don't what experience you could have regarding the commercialism of folk music because you have no chance of the opportunity of benefiting form it.

As for Glenn Miller - in what way was he a bastion of folk music 70 years ago when playing big band swing?

Let it go. You are the past. Enjoy what you do and let others enjoy what they do.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 12:50 PM

edit:
I don't know what experience you could have regarding the commercialism of folk music because you have no chance of the opportunity of benefiting from it.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: doc.tom
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 01:34 PM

Come on, GUEST without a name (but with a caps lock!) - as always, please stop hiding behind anonymity.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 04:59 PM

Guest Morriss_ey, you continue to insult me, what is your real name, and what have you done.
Here is what I am doing.
I am and have been running a festival for the last six years, I am working as a professional singer and musician AND HAVE BEEN DOING SO SINCE 1976. yet you claim I have limited knowledge of the uk folk scene.
I am no more the past than any other full time singer[ whether they be any age... 20 50 70 90]
Guest Morriss-ey you are a coward who hides behind anonymity and cannot engage in a discussion without insults
yet your comment here
"GSS, despite or perhaps because of many decades in his personal folk bubble actually knows very little of the folk scene and how it has developed, and continues to develop, to suit changing times, attitudes, technology and audience."
this is so wide of the mark, that your comment could be about yourself.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 05:55 PM

I think you're getting steamed up over nowt, GSS. And you know I respect your musicianship and creative endeavour.

Folk is no different from any other music.

Do you really think Gary Glitter and Suzie Quatro were the most talented people of the seventies? No of course not , but that's what the BBC ran with. Did you really think Carla lane's gentle comedies (i.e. totally unfunny) were cutting edge writing?

The BBC does its thing. Render unto Caeser what is Caeser's.

It has nothing to do with us.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 06:06 PM

yes, intersting that the bbc, had Saville a paedophile, as a dj, and they promoted another paedophile, gary glitter.
the commercial world of pop, bend over, let me abuse, and we will make you a star., talk about prostitution

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 06:34 PM

On the uk folk scene we have a different scenario, a certain degree of nepotism.
I am digressing now from the BBC folk awards, I do not know of any nepotism there, but the awards could lend themselves open to this if Agents were allowed too much influence,
I am not saying it has happened yet, but there could be a danger there which would undermine the credibility of these awards.
here are a few quotes that are worth remembering
Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
"Music can save people, but it can't in the commercial way it's being used. It's just too much. It's pollution."
Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 07:26 PM

Man, you sure get hot n bothered over something which you have no control over. I can not be arsed to get into the normal diatribe that seems to inhabit the British threads so often. I only added my two penneth as I was passing. I do not give a shite whether you agree or not.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Apr 17 - 07:26 PM

I told you my name in the other thread.

As to paedophiles at the BBC, what the fuck has that to do with folk awards?

Bod Dylan? Is that the bloke who accepted £250,000 for a Nobel Prize the other day; who made millions from selling millions of records commercially?

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 05:13 AM

Bob Dylan - they cover him in the first year of Folk Music 101. It comes in the unit , which finger should one stick in one's lughole.

I doubt you uneducated oiks what hang around folk clubs could understand Dylan's profound lyrics.
We don't need the likes of you sodding up the BBC awards for being very nice.
you're obviously racist and vote for Brexit.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 06:53 AM

Guest Morriss _ey,
you are a liar as well as a coward, you have not said your real name, furthermore you insult people other than me who have done far more than you will ever do,here for example
Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey - PM
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 12:29 PM

Shirley Collins will win both categories she is in not least because she has done nothing for 30 years and is still alive, has produced a subtle return to almost unproduced sound, but also because old school, imho, is often better than new skool...

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 08:36 AM

Have a day off lads, get back to the original text. My point was that the Folk Awards seem to represent more the festival scene, whereas Folk Clubs are more a platform for anyone who thinks they have something to offer. Usually singers singing to singers!

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 08:36 AM

Have a day off lads, get back to the original text. My point was that the Folk Awards seem to represent more the festival scene, whereas Folk Clubs are more a platform for anyone who thinks they have something to offer. Usually singers singing to singers!

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 10:06 AM

Good Soldier Schweik said : Shirley Collins will win both categories she is in not least because she has done nothing for 30 years and is still alive, has produced a subtle return to almost unproduced sound, but also because old school, imho, is often better than new skool...

It's nailbiting waiting to find out if she did win both categories, isn't it? But I guess we won't know until after the awards have happened.

(nobody tell him...)

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 10:45 AM

I think it is a real shame that a few of the same people get on these music threads and repeat the same mantra over and over. It certainly discourages open and civil discussion. Frankly, I wish that one or two of these pompous asses would just bugger off. Sorry, but I am a bit tired of it.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

MORRISEY SAID THAT, not me for god sake read
Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey - PM
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 12:29 PM

Shirley Collins will win both categories she is in not least because she has done nothing for 30 years and is still alive, has produced a subtle return to almost unproduced sound, but also because old school, imho, is often better than new skool...

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 01:30 PM

Guest Morriss _ey,
you are a liar as well as a coward, you have not said your real name, furthermore you insult people other than me who have done far more than you will ever do,here for example
Subject: RE: Radio 2 Folk Awards 2017 - Nominations
From: GUEST,Morris-ey - PM
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 12:29 PM

Shirley Collins will win both categories she is in not least because she has done nothing for 30 years and is still alive, has produced a subtle return to almost unproduced sound, but also because old school, imho, is often better than new skool...

GSS

I did give you my real name in the other thread. If that was not my real name, what is my real name since you know what it is not?

You also seem to have no conception of sarcasm. Shirley Collins MBE should be a Dame if there were any justice in the world. She is certainly more deserving than you will ever be.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 02:11 PM

Well, you have both proven my point....numbtys, the pair of ya !

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 04:16 PM

what the heck is this thread about.

its about people arguing.

as the ISB wrote - Be glad for the song has no ending...

as old Toilets himself said - a tedious argument of insidious intent....

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 01:33 PM

Mooriss _ey
who are you, and what have you done, have you run a festival for six years, have you run folk clubs, have you earned a living as a musician for 41 years?
you expect me to believe you saying you are being sarcastic,
please allow others to have different opinions without indulging in personal attacks.
I am not interested in your opinion that you think Shirley deserves the award more than me, let me make it clear I totally agree with you,
let me make it also clear I would not allow myself to be nominated for this feckin tupid competition
IT IS NOT IN MY OPINION WHAT THE FOLK SCENE NEEDS AS ITS NUMBER ONE PRIORITY.

Subject: RE: National Folk Awards 2017
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 04:48 PM

Dick Miles, this thread is about the National Folk Awards. Take your bruised ego and go to your room. Your self-defending rants are tiresome. Did you ever happen to notice that nobody else acts like that? Please stick to talking about the subject of discussion, and leave the other stuff at home. Nobody's interested in that, and it just serves to ruin the discussion. You may well have been wronged by various people, but fighting your battles here is of no help to anyone, including yourself. I value your opinions on folk music matters, I really do. I just wish you could present your ideas in a less combative manner and not take disagreement so personally - even when people who disagree express themselves in a combative manner. Fighting back doesn't do you any good, and it doesn't do Mudcat any good.
-Joe Offer-