BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM

Irrefutable evidence that Kerry is an arrogant asshole.

Old Guy rubbin' it in

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:53 AM

We should've got out after getting the Al Quida, and we should not be there now. Bottom line...

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Porky
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM

"Kerry Balks at Sending Troops to Sudan"
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/1097197804

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:29 PM

Clint,


""BUT looking at what was thought true…"
What was thought untrue by most everybody but the neoconservtives in power here."

No, what was thought true by the British and US intelligence comunity, and reinforced by the information from Russia. If everyone though it was bad information, why didn't anyone just tell Saddam to open his borders and let the US search? Or even tell Saddam to comply with the UN resolution(s), and thus remove the threat of an invasion.



""I still feel he would have been derilect in his duty to the nation if he had not attacked Iraq, after the UN refused to take effective action."

The UN was taking effective action. Saddam had gotten rid of his WMDs"


Then WHY was he still in "substantial non-compliance" with the UN resolutions? You have never addressed the fact that the UN has stated that Saddam did not comply.



""Saddam HAD more than enough chances- "

Chances to get rid of the weapons he had already gotten rid of?"

Chances to comply with the UN resolutions THAT HE WAS IN SUBSTANTIAL NON-CDOMPLIANCE WITH.



"And what actions anyone takes on Sudan has no effect on the wisdom of Bush's declaration of war on Iraq."


Agreed- so you feel that the UN has again acted correctly in not dealing with a situation agreed upon to be genocide- Yet you want the US to allow the UN to determine when the US can act in self-defense?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:14 PM

The Sudan situation is ugly and awful. Had our resources not been over-committed in Iraq we might be doing something about Sudan right now.

The scene of Bush gaping in the classroom has been over-used as a PR point, and is not as damning in and of itself as it is being made. The man might have been deciding on strategy for all I know!

But the actions he took thereafter were wanting in a number of ways. I think he did rise to the occasion in the subsequent address to the nation and he did the public Walk Rall number well.

And that is about all.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:10 PM

"BUT looking at what was thought true…"
What was thought untrue by most everybody but the neoconservtives in power here.

"I still feel he would have been derilect in his duty to the nation if he had not attacked Iraq, after the UN refused to take effective action."

The UN was taking effective action. Saddam had gotten rid of his WMDs

"Saddam HAD more than enough chances- "

Chances to get rid of the weapons he had already gotten rid of?

And what actions anyone takes on Sudan has no effect on the wisdom of Bush's declaration of war on Iraq.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:47 AM

A

And yet, there are complaints that, on 9/11, Bush sat there, waiting for more information rather than jumping up and doing something. It seems to me that he is damned if he does anything, and damned if he does not. PERHAPS he acted in haste on Iraq- How many months? BUT looking at what was thought true, I still feel he would have been derilect in his duty to the nation if he had not attacked Iraq, after the UN refused to take effective action. Saddam HAD more than enough chances- To allow him further time did not in any way resolve the problem.

I am still upset that, even after the US declares the situation in Sudan to be genocide, there is NO effective action by the UN. Yet, how can we complain if the US does not act unilateraly, now? I also note that the sudan threads drop off the bottom here, or are hijacked to Iraq, but that the multiple threads insulting both candidates are always active. Seems to me that there is a very selective choice of protests against inhumanity, here.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM

I was taught to look at the facts, and try to determine what reality was, not pick and choose the "Facts" that support my viewpoint, and ignore the ones that do not. Being human, I sometimes fail- but at least I try, unlike a number of those here on mudcat who make no attempt to get both sides of any situation.


Hear, hear, Bruce!

I concur whole heartedly with your approach.

The problems begin when "facts" turn out to be taken out of context, evaluated as more important than other facts when not, altered in their sequence, or told in isolation with other relevant data missing.

I offer for example the facts and the consequences of the facts offered by Resident Bush to the nation over and over, about how Saddam Hussein was allied to Al Queda and possessed mass-destruction weapons and the ability to deliver them against the U.S.

All the tales told were distorted. It is possible that the intention to go to war against Saddam Hussein preceded 9-11, had nothing to do with WMD, and arrived at the White House the day the Bush team took office, I don't know.

Now you and I can throw opinions and conclusions around here all day. We aren't changing the face of life int he United States very much with our opinions.

When Bush's false facts were promulgated, the machinery of war fired up, and a thousand troops walked in to their last days. Perhaps 100,000 Iraqi -- most of them civilians -- were earmarked for death.

This is the sort of abuse I will not tolerate, and my protest against this inhumanity is why I get a bit strident sometimes. Because thousands of lives have been snuffed out because Bush didn't verify his data.

ANd why didn't he, given that he was entrusted with executive responsibility?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:53 AM

A

I do not disagree with you about the Washington Times- I read it trying to get all the viewpoints, not just the Post's. It IS conservative. But just because a source has a bias does not mean that one can discard all the facts it presents. A large number- and no, I have not counted them yet- of your sources are obviously biased to your viewpoint- and I would be willing to accept the facts that they ppresent, if the facts that I present from my sources were being accepted. But why should I consider ANYTHING from YOUR biased source, when you discount EVERYTHING from MY biased sources? I was taught to look at the facts, and try to determine what reality was, not pick and choose the "Facts" that support my viewpoint, and ignore the ones that do not. Being human, I sometimes fail- but at least I try, unlike a number of those here on mudcat who make no attempt to get both sides of any situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for clarifying your position, there, Bruce.

Your accusations are annoying but I am not going to get into an argument about them. I don't think I have hassled you about sources, although I have said that the Washington Times is more likely to be biased and inaccurate than the Washington Post. I think that is true, because the Times is owned by a known cultmeister, a religous zealot.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:41 AM

Fred,

Sorry about that. My last line in that message was NOT directed at you, but those that seek to intimidate by ridicule and insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:35 AM

Bearded Bruce, I don't see how my asking someone to please explain to me how they support Bush amounts to denying anyone freedom of speech.

True, you've responded, and I appreciate that, but still I don't get it. I'm trying, honestly. I'm not afraid of Kerry because we're not electing him king. Every one of his past personal failings--if you see them that way, doesn't portend disaster to me. Bush seems to me to operate as a monarch, to an unusual degree, which is divisive when we should unite, and, allowing the possibility of good intentions, but setting them aside, it's destructive in the result.

   But I don't expect that to happen with Kerry, or most anyone else who is qualified for the office--if anyone really is. Most people can listen, a little, can moderate, can absorb, can respect other voices. Bush's steadfastness is his utter and unique flaw--it's what makes him a dangerous idiot. I believe intelligence knew better, diplomacy knew better, the military knew better, the whole rest of the world knew better, but Bush had to make tough decisions that were wrong and grant me, a bit suspicious, and stick with them against advice from any and all sources. I can't support that. A man who can see both sides of an issue is more my man, scares me far far less. Because that's how this thing is supposed to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,S Hill
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:47 AM

"An Open Letter to John Kerry
US Constitution Article 14 Section 3 Disqualifies You From the Presidency

10 October 2004
Senator John Kerry
c/o Democratic National Committee
530 S. Capitol St. SE
Washington DC 20003

Dear John

In April 1971 you testified as a Naval officer before Congress, giving
the North Vietnamese what they hadn't gotten from American POWs in
Hanoi: a confession of war crimes. According to Senator John McCain (14 May 1973 US News & World Report) your testimony was "the most effective propaganda they had to use against us." Your photograph is displayed in the Vietnamese Communist War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City (www.WinterSoldier.com)in the room of tribute to the American anti-war protestors who helped the North Vietnamese win the war. North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap wrote in his memoir in 1985 that if it weren't for anti-war activists such as youand the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which you led and represented, they would have surrendered; but as a result of your activism and that of others like yourself, American POWs stayed in prison longer, they were tortured longer, the war lasted longer, America surrendered, and thousands more Americans and Viets died. You gave aid and comfort to the enemy.
Now, on the campaign trail, you are calling the war against Saddam
Hussein and terrorism in Iraq "the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time." You are giving aid and comfort to the enemy again.
The United States Constitution, Article 14, Section 3, provides that:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President or Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . as an officer of the United States . . . shall have . . . given aid and comfort to the enemies thereof."
The law is perfectly clear. You have taken an oath to uphold the
Constitution, as a Naval officer, as a Senator, and you seek to do so
again as President. To uphold the US Constitution, Article 14, Section 3, you must resign from the Senate, and resign your presidential candidacy. Your presidency would be a violation of the US Constitution, Article 14, Section 3.

Very truly yours,
Jim "Zak" Szakmary
Long Island, NY
Zak/USMC/F 2-11/Viet Nam/'68-'69"
http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_5554.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:31 AM

Amos,

I have never stated that "Bush's management has demonstrated competence, intelligence, effectiveness, or other managerial virtues."

I have stated that the decision to attack Iraq , based on what was known, and the conditions at that time IMO, seemed to be required by his position, and was correct. YOU insist of defining other people- YOU keep telling us what we believ, and then castigate us for having an opinion that differs with you. YOU have been making personal comments about the inteligence and integrity of all those who have said anything that you do not approve of. If nothing else, you should at least respect Bush, since you imitate what you claim to be his way of treating people and facts.

I have stated that there were others I would rather have seen as candidates, on both sides. But, given the choice I have, I have stated repeatedly the reasons I feel that Bush , while a lousy choice, is better than Kerry.

I am sorry if you do not agree: But if you decline to have a reasonable conversation, insist on special priviledges ( your quoting partisan sites, then disallowing anything that you disagree with from other partisan sites), I fail to see why that should be my problem.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Bunky
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:07 AM

Ron Davies:

"we need a pro-Kerry site----e..g. the Wall St Journal, CNN etc
Wall St. Journal, that well-known leftist rag. Have you ever read their editorials? "

"Opinion Journal from the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page

Amid the controversy over "Unfit for Command" and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, it's worth noting that John Kerry's surrogates continue to overstate their man's Vietnam record...
"
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005516
BM

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:53 AM

BB:

You seem to be getting personal again. As for the chasm between the "way the world works" and my vision of how it works, I think I tensd to err on the side of optimism sometimes.

But I feel there is a similar gap between reality and your view of it, especially if you think Bush's management has demonstrated competence, intelligence, effectiveness, or other managerial virtues.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:41 PM

Ebbie,

And we are expected to believe that Democrats really think the site posted by Amos reflects anything real? Even Republicans don't think that Democrats are THAT dumb.

But I do agree with your last line- for ALL of us.


"Winning is one thing- living with a win is quite another. "


I just hope that, whoever wins, we will survive to be arguing again in 4 years...

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:46 PM

A Bush site showing what it would be like if he were elected? I think I know how it would go. First, there would be the usual applause and tears and congratulations. Then after a stunned silence would come the questions as the Republicans realize that it's only going to get worse. Republicans aren't dumb- other than some obvious ones, *G*- so they WILL start verbalizing uncomfortable truths. Winning is one thing- living with a win is quite another.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

Amos- crossposted

The problem is that I see you as being blind, and not even willing to look at the facts when they are presented. I have tried to understand what you have posted, but it it basically "Anyone who does not believe what I believe is stupid and should just shut up." You demand "facts" from unbiased sources, then continue to post fron blatently partisan ones, yourself. You ask us to look at one person's dream of a possible fuuture, as if it had any possibility of becoming true, with not effort to show how it will come true. There is a major disconnect between what you say about the world, and the way that the world actually works, at least IN MY OPINION.

Try being a little less dictatorial at to what you allow others to think, and perhaps you might actually be able to present you view as a possibility- NOT as a definition.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM

Amos,

Hardly an unbiased site- So you will go watch a Bush site's version of what will happen after Bush is re-elected?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

Bruce:

That's horse shit.

However, I feel you are not seeing how duplicitous your beloved leader really is, nor how much damage he has done.

There's an old saying that says "none is so blind as he who will not see", and I feel this applies to you.

That's my opinion. I know you want to twist this around as you have done with many other posts, and make it say something different,. but I wish before you do that, that you would try to understand it just as it is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:09 PM

Consider what is possible :

http://www.bandofcitizens.org/citizenflicks/visualizewinning.html

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:08 PM

Fred,

I think that, for some of us, your last paragraph applies to Kerry. It is a matter of what one considers more important about the candidate- each of us has a difeerent set of values to apply, and each will come to a difeerent conclusion.

But I guess freedom of speech only applies to those that go along with the party line.....

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM

I'm not bothered by Kerry's anti-war activities because it was a stupid goddamn war bungled from the top and paid for at the bottom--which reminds me of another.

I really don't have the heart to quibble over the short strokes. I'd just like to hear how someone adds up Bush's actual record in large measure into a positive number. Or is the only way to support him to subbornly not see the forest for the trees?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 07:44 PM

Amos,

Going Up River is as much a biased, one-sided presentation as any by the Swift Boat Vets. Or is it you think that propoganda is always right when it suupports your side, and wrong when it supports the other?

A discussion of the facts of the matter, not which movie version you like better would be more useful.




"And if you aren't canvassing or calling all evening tomorrow -- though we truly hope that you are! -- the Sundance Channel is re-airing the breathtaking finale of the Vote for Change tour, which was presented by MoveOn PAC to benefit America Coming Together.

Tune in on the Sundance Channel at 6:30 pm, ET Saturday, for the show, which features Bonnie Raitt, Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, Dave Matthews Band, The Dixie Chicks, Jackson Browne, James Taylor, John Fogerty, John Mellancamp, Jurassic 5, Keb' Mo', Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds, Pearl Jam, and R.E.M. If you have a satellite dish or receive over 60 cable channels, you probably have the Sundance Channel.

PAID FOR BY MOVEON PAC www.moveonpac.org
Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. "


But I guess cable is so much less of a public media, so it is ok to present this, but not ok for the Sinclair backed movie...

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 05:14 PM

I think you guys should all take a gander at Going Up River before you go shooting off your mouths -- it makes Kerry's anti-wart activites very clear. It also makes his war record very clear. The chapter's on his serrvice are pretty much what they are claimed to be. He went to harm's way voluntarily and stood up against enemy fire and survived. He came home and took on mob-think as a new variation of enemy fire and survived that. He has more balls than any of these half-baked posters have shown, and has shown more integrity, courage and ability to communicate than anyone in the Bush administration. THe comparison between them is laughable, and one of the indicators of this is the desperation with which his right-wing detractors reach until they nearly fall over to find material to discredit him.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Burger Meister
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 03:26 PM

"Opinion Journal from the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page

Amid the controversy over "Unfit for Command" and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, it's worth noting that John Kerry's surrogates continue to overstate their man's Vietnam record...
Still, for the most part O'Neill and co-author Jerome Corsi have Kerry dead to rights on his antiwar activities. He did accuse fellow servicemen of war crimes; he was a leader in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, a group headed by a fraudulent "veteran" who was a far-left ideologue; the North Vietnamese did use Kerry's public statements to demoralize American prisoners of war. All this has been widely reported in the past.

On the other hand, the chapters on Kerry's Vietnam service are inconclusive--with the exception of Kerry's Christmas-in-Cambodia yarn, from which he has backed away even though he once said it was "seared--seared--in me." O'Neill and Corsi quote various vets who served with Kerry and dispute his accounts of the events that led to his being awarded five medals (three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star). Others who were there, however, back Kerry's versions."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005516
BM

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:56 AM

Well, thanks Amos. Now I think I understand it, a little.

Old Guy, this is rude of me, and I'm sure I'm wrong, but since I don't like to qibble in detail, post links, quote at length, and since you won't post me your overall take, I'm going to guess at it.

The reason you put "greedy corporation" and "med. liability lawyer" in quotes is that you are mocking the book of conventional liberal dem. wisdom and it's indictments of the Bush administration. You are drawing parallels--that one could just as easily make these counter-charges, you are calling anyone who votes Kerry a blind fool and an idiot mainly in response to the general tone here that says or implies that about anyone who votes Bush.

I think you want to vote in support of the larger ideals and direction of the party, which Bush espouses and surely beleves in, sincerely--despite that there are some serious problems and the world isn't perfect. I think you want to draw parallels to reassure mainly yourself that some things that bother you are mainly just partisan attacks, which you can easily turn around. That just doesn't add up for me.

The partisan stuff is there, as always, but for me there's a lot more that just that weighing in against this President. Despite the larger goals of the party, Bush is simply a poor and very compromised leader who has and still is making some unavoidably bad things worse.

In short, it sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself that voting Bush isn't a partisan-biased error, especially given the alternative. And I'm guessing you've convinced yourself.

    But in the long-term, there's no way now that Bush can be remembered well by history--it's too much, too many big misjudgements, too many troubling but ultimately unanswerable questions of his priorities, he's passed his potential by, and mainly missed. He is a generally failed President. There's no real equal parallel to that to be drawn about anyone who hasn't been a president.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,johnjohn
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM

Santorum denounces Rendell on ballots

At issue is the governor's refusal to allow extra time for military votes to arrive.

Staff and wire reports

U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum is accusing Gov. Ed Rendell [D] of not giving military personnel and others overseas a fair shot at voting in this year's elections.

Some area residents agree, but not always for the same reasons as the senator.

The Republican senator from Pittsburgh sent a letter to Rendell's office Tuesday saying he is, "disappointed that you are fighting commonsense efforts to ensure that members of our Armed Forces and other Pennsylvanians living overseas are counted in the 2004 election."

Among other thngs, the senator argues that since two of Pennsylvania's 67 counties - Venango and Huntingdon - sent their absentee ballots after the Sept. 20 deadline, the governor should support an extension of the deadline, which is tomorrow, for the return of all of Pennsylvania's thousands of absentee ballots.

And there are murmurs among some conservatives that Rendell, a Democrat, is trying to suppress the usually heavily Republican military vote.

Some locals aren't so sure.

"I think that that's an opinion," said Tracy Clocker of Larksville, wife of Staff Sgt. Kevin Clocker of the 109th Field Artillery, who is stationed on the border of Iraq and Kuwait. "But at the same time, I think all the absentee ballots should be counted."

Clocker added that she didn't want the military absentee votes to end up uncounted like some of Florida's minority votes in the last presidential election.

Others say they can see a political motive.

"Maybe a lot of people think the governor is for Kerry and they know a lot of the military is for Bush, so they think that's why they're not pushing to extend it - to cut down on votes," said Mark Davenport, father-in-law of Spc. Raymond Cannell of the 109th Service Battery, who is stationed about 60 miles north of Baghdad.

The governor wrote a letter to Santorum earlier this week after Santorum appeared on conservative talk radio raising questions about an extension.

The letter stated the two late counties were required by the Department of State to send their ballots by express mail and provide an expedited way to return them free of charge.

Rendell also had this to say in the letter: "... Members of the media and others continue to call on me to extend the deadline for the receipt of military and overseas ballots. As an attorney, you know that I do not have the power unilaterally to extend deadlines set by statute - and it is disingenuous for anyone who believes in the law to even suggest such an action."

On Oct. 20, United States District Court Judge Yvette Kane denied a request from the Department of Justice for a two-week extension of the absentee ballot deadline. The Justice Department had asked for the extension to send new absentee ballots without Ralph Nader listed on them.

Late Wednesday afternoon, two plaintiffs in Venango and Montgomery counties filed suit on behalf of their children, Army Spc. Steven Reitz and Army Spc. Matthew Schramm, seeking an injunction and a 15-day extension for their absentee ballots, said Josh Wilson, the political director for the Republican State Committee.

The suit was filed in United States Middle District Court and will be heard by Judge Kane, Wilson said.

Some area residents say the deadline for absentee ballots should be extended regardless, because of the time it takes the ballots to travel to and from their destinations.

"It takes longer to get mail from overseas," said Renee Koepke of Tunkhannock, whose husband, William Koepke, a staff sergeant with the 109th Filed Artillery, is stationed in Kuwait. "For regular mail, a letter can take 10 days. A package takes up to two weeks."

Davenport said the deadline should be extended especially in times of war. "After all, they're the ones over there doing the fighting," he said. "I would think their votes counted even more than ours should."

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/10031833.htm
JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:02 PM

OG:

FLimsy, flimsy, flimsy.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,johnjohn
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:43 AM

When Amos is caught spreading lies, twisting and addins things, his post, one of 53 anti Bush / Pro Kerry posts he made thay day, disappears like 380 tons of explosives.
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=73906#1309210

When he is in danger of loosing the argument he started in his own thread, he declares victory.
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=74339#1305014

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:18 AM

I don't want to trouble you Old Guy, but time is running short, and if I'm not going to be a blind fool and an idiot, I'm going to need more guidance.

Walk me through it from the top. I get this part--I jump to the obvious cynical conclusions about Kerry and Edwards and the "big greedy corporation" and the "medical liability lawyer." One question--why are these in quotes? Is the "big greedy corporation" a front for something even more sinister? Is a "medical liability lawyer" actually a terrorist? or the disguise Osama has assumed to hide from us?

Now, when it comes to Bush Cheney, the oil connections, the Bin Laden connections, the Haliburton--what am I doing here in terms of "knowing where he stands?" Suspending disbelief? Knowing intuitively that these are good men, who despite any slight vague appearance to the contrary have the country's interest at heart? Do I like oil better than ketchup? Consider ketchup worse than blood? How do I work it?

Can I pm you my e-mail so you can keep me filled in on who is arrogant, an asshole/trustworthy, and honourable, and who isn't, if I'm still too blind and dumb to figure it out myself? Come on Guy, these things are all clear and obvious to you. I still need your guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 09:40 AM

I wish that worked for me, but it's like when you start to look for something, and can't find it, and you can't let it go. Everyday I hear sane reasonable sounding people saying things I can't get on my worksheet. Bush's integrity. How do you get that? People say that all the time. Because he takes unpopular stands? They're unpopular because they are contrary to sense and responsibility. It's like giving Beetle Bailey credit for his commitment to loafing. Except Beetle isn't loafing on behalf of anyone else, he's his own man, at least.

Old Guy, how do you get that Kerry--or, screw Kerry, ANYBODY-- would claim to fix things that aren't broken? You see no problems, no huge mounting debt, no man who orchestrated attacks on the U.S. still out and about, while we're too busy with other business to bother much about it, no widening gap between extreme wealth and extreme poverty, no general tendency for recent solutions to have no known relationship to the problems they are supposed to address, no nothing. I wish I lived in your world. I wish you lived in mine. Call me a fool and an idiot. Fine. Step up and tell me how to see it your way, seriously, please.

You bring up Kerry and Edwards having personal conflicts and interests. Who doesn't? Show me one citizen who doesn't, name one viable candidate from this other planet you speak of. Remember, it IS possible to govern and legislate independent of your personal connections and interests. It just hasn't SEEMED possible for four years, somehow. It's actually possible. I'll bet on a slim chance over no chance. Bush's integrity. Good Lord.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:45 AM

Fred:

Someone a long time ago save me endless grief in my life by pointing out to me that sometimes when something seems utterly incomprehensible, it is just because it IS incomprehensible, inherently, and no good will come from trying to understand the incomprehensible.

Bush has abused his office, his confidences, his trust; there are people who would rather see him impeached. I don't have much to do with them, but I understand how they feel.

By rushing to war he has thrown the entire nation into a marginal, almost untenable situation. I think Bush would be greatly relieved to turn the Presidency over to someone a little smarter just so he wouldn't have to deal with it any longer. I am sure in his heart he is tired of fucking up and most of all tired of having his fuck ups pointed out to him.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:15 PM

Well, BB, the first post of this thread calls me a blind fool and some other things, because I will not be voting for Bush. I don't particularly like Kerry but I'm willing to give a man a chance who hasn't yet utterly abused my trust.

I'm not too worried about waffling, because I hope Kerry will change his mind about some things when he's in a better position to weigh them together, with the best advice from expert advisors. Like Generals for war, experts in fields, etc. If Bush is elected, I can only hope that what he has already determined to do regardless of evidence or lack of it will somehow coincidentally coincide with something good for America or somebody. Seems like an irresponsible hope for me to bet anything on.

I heard a man this morning on the radio who is still undecided. He seemed a reasonable guy, paying attention. It bothered him that Kerry called the coalition puny, because he's Polish, and thought Kerry was dissing the Polish troops, saying that.

He didn't like Bush's answers about jobs. We have to educate the children. As a 51 year old steelworker, this didn't seem like much of an answer.

Then I thought about these things. Does he really imagine Polish troops being insulted? What is he thinking? What, this Kerry guy wants to send us help? You gonna need help when I'm done with you, you big Herman Munster looking freak. We don't need no help, you Yankees go on home, in fact, just leave me, private Ramboski. When I give the signal just send the Governator to keep the peace. Why are Americans so stupid about fighting? Why is it always bad-ass pride? Especially among those sitting o n the sofa? Of course the soldiers want and need help, but they needed it a long time ago. Now it's all f'd up royal. Arrogant. Over-confident. Didn't listen to people who know the job. Doesn't know his job is to listen. He may not be an utterly illegitimate President, but he's about as close as you can get, and maybe he should moderate accordingly. I thought he would. Now I just hope he gets his ass thrown out, hard. And I don't envy the job of cleaning up after him.

Jobs. Why does this guy need a job? What a wussie. This is the land of opportunity, and he wants someone to give him a job. Well. There are new openings in post-war peacekeeping all the time.

I can't understand how anyone could vote for Bush. I can't understand how he hasn't greivously abused his office and his duty. I try, but I need help. I don't get it. I can refrain from being angry, usually, but I can't understand it. Not a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:33 PM

Fred,

IMO, there is a lot of valid criism of Bush- But a whole lot more plain nastyness that is based on people's dislike of his policies.

I have stated, repeatedly, that I do not agree with all that the Bush administration has done, or is doing. I thought that everything the Washington post said about Bush was accurate, and a reasonable assessment. I do feel, however, that Kerry has not given me any reason to feel that I, my family, my friends, or all the other citizens of this country, would be safer, or even better off under a Kerry Administration.

I resent being told that if I hold an opinion different from someone that I will be held to a different set of standards, when having a discussion, than the people that agree with the "PROPER" view. I find that there is a simultaneous claim thet "EVERYONE" is against Bush, and that anyone who supports Bush is foolish, misled, or involved in the evil conspiracy. This selective disenfranchisment of all those who do not support the Liberal side does not strike me as fair, or reasonable.

When I look at the dirty tricks being done by BOTH sides, I see that the ones done in support of the "PROPER" side are being ignored, or downplayed, while those of the "EVIL" side are blown out of proportion. This does not strike me as fair or reasonable.

I have no problem with people voting according to thier opinions- I would expect them to, and see no reason that I should not have that right as well, without being subject to personal attacks and ridicule.

Perhaps it is just the Mudcat, but I have seen far more reprehensible behaviour by those professing to support Kerry than by those who claim to support Bush. Should I judge the candidates by their statements, or the people who support them? From what they say - NOT what those against them say that they said - I still feel that we would be better off with a Bush administration, as flawwed as I know it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:27 PM

...OG. But I have been careful to say more than once I consider you intelligent.

Q # 1:   What would it take to make you reconsider, in light of his consistent "If- Its- Posted- In- A- Blog- Or- Anywhere- At- All- On -The -Internet- It- Must- Be- True" approach to factual documentation and critical thinking?

Q # 2: Is a parrot's ability to accurately mimic sounds an indication of intelligence?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:54 PM

Old Guy, BB, I wish either one of you or anyone else would step up to answer to the big picture. If anyone can explain to me how G.W. Bush has not betrayed my trust I swear I'll vote for him.
   I did trust him. I accepted the election. When he threatened war I thought, well, the threat of war might not be a bad idea with a thug like Saddam. When the war commenced I didn't see the point in opposing it. And all along I thought of course, the President is in a position to know things I might not know.

Here we are. I'm not an utterly biased liberal. Give me a Dole, give me a Powell, see how I vote. I don't especially like Kerry, in particular I don't like his stance on the war. I forgive the waffle, because he probably believed the President, just like I did. But I don't like either one of his positions at the time he held them.

I'm afraid I think we have to go as long as it takes. But forgive me if I don't think Bush is the man for the job. I won't call you a liar, but if you think you can dismiss all criticism of Bush as liberal Democrat bias, if you think you can tell me why I think what I think, then I refer you to the immortal words of the gentleman, and scholar, our vice president.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:02 PM

LEt me add, Old Guy, that it was you who decided to start a public and persistant thread with the title shown above, essentially communicating to the entire 'Cat world that anyone supporting John Kerry, a decent and intelligent and brave human being, was supporting an "asshole" and contributing to "arrogance". If that isn't calling me stupid in big letters, I don't know what would be. Don't be disingenuous about the insults you have levied, just because you have done so covertly. Being passive aggressive is just as nasty as being overtly aggressive. John Kerry is a man who genuinely tries hard to do well by those who place their trust in him. Probably the only such a one running for President at present.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:52 PM

I asked you when you were going to stop passing out lies, OG. But I have been careful to say more than once I consider you intelligent. And as for the lies, well, did you feel FactCheck was wrong? I accepted their analysis and if it was wrong, i apologize.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:37 PM

Amos:

If you will carefully note I have not resorted to calling you uncivil names like stupid or liar.

You on the other hand have resorted to an all out attack on me as If you have no respect for me or my views.

You are entitled to your views but I am not entitled to mine.

Therefore I say you are neither a gentleman nor a scholar.

You are just another win at any cost Kerry droid.

Good luck to you.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 10:05 AM

I hear ya Fred. I don't know how the economy thing sorts exactly -- I wonder if anyone does -- but more important the stunning notion that half the nation's people are so readily duped, taking the tokenism of false assertions as a sign of an actual condition which never shows up, is an astonishment to me, and saddens me.

All I can say is, choose your people, make good friends, and live well as a sort of revenge!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:50 AM

A bigger issue is how Bush is strong on the economy. How. How has he achieved his modest success. You may not like tax-and-spend, but in the long run, you must admit it has at least one particular advantage over don't tax and spend anyway. Whatever happened to fiscally responsible conservatives--are they all dead now? Is this what we are? Can we all rally together after our country has been attacked, but only as long as we don't have to pay taxes? Can we be bribed so easily? Are we afraid the upper middle class might have to tighten its belt, and actually live in their vestigial "good living rooms?" Is this how Bush is a regular guy, because he's running up all our credit cards and hoping to win the lottery?

Kerry may be an arrogant asshole--maybe it's a characteristic of guys who went to the same college. But he has a long way to go to catch up with Bush, who has been the free world's leading arrogant asshole for awhile now. He had no diplomacy, a half-assed plan for war, none for peace. His big claim is that he's lead us to victory against a little piece of shit 4rth-rate military power, well, ALMOST. Is this what we are, now? Well hot damn. Let's go kick some little fourth grader's ass--for as long as it takes--and celebrate.

Whoever wins the election, we can all hope for the best for each other, and none of us can actually predict the future. But still. Good lord.

They say we get the government we deserve. But I don't remember when we killed and ate all those schoolchildren. The fact that Bush has so many supporters now has changed me, whether he wins or not. I feel less an American. It tells me something I already knew, but have tried my whole life not to believe. I feel the way I would in the audience of a pro-wrestling match--alienated, afraid, not enjoying the show, unable to root for anything, wanting out. I don't know if I want my kids to grow up as part of this cynical put-on bad-ass moron farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry--not arrogant nor asshole
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 08:53 AM

Okay, Bruce. I dunno who baby-face is, but he's on your side. I still don't know which source you didn't like . No reason to go haring off looking for back issues of the Las Vegtas Law Journal, as if I had time to go mining through old paper. Without the courtesy of a URL or at least some information of where he got the data it is not a duty. Furthermore if a trusted source recommended by your side provides an analysis, why should we both not accept that analysis?

And it isn't as though Yucca Mountain is a central issue here anyway.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:05 AM

Correction- I did say MOST. I have not done a count, so I should retract that and say SOME, since I cannot give the numbers to show more than half.

And I will consider that "GUEST,BabyBBvs.OGvs.Amos" represents the best that Liberals can do in terms of a discussion of facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:57 AM

A

How am I "resorting to ad hominem bullshit again?" I am attacking your use of biased sites- and I did say some, not all. I am attacking your lack of response to OG's citations: Do you imply that , since there exists one vote that supports you, ALL other votes by the same person should be ignored if they do not support your premise? I attack your method of arguement. I DO NOT ATTACK YOU.

Therefore, I have made no ad hominem attack.

I am up because, on a 12 hour shift from 7pm to 7 am, one has to do something to stay awake.

Why are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,BabyBBvs.OGvs.Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:56 AM

WAHHH!!!! AMos is liberal!!big mean liberall!!! he's mean to me and old guy!!!old guy reads paper too!WAHHHH!!!

arrrrgh! blow it out yer meatwhistle you punk!! kerry's an asshole!! yer an asshole!!! assholeassholeasshole!!! got it? how's about i say the same old shit again?!!! over and over you assholes!!

To my view you are being either disingenuous or intentionally obtuse, I am not sure which. But that is just my
opinion. I could be wrong.

WAHHHH!!!!mean wiberals mean wiberals!!!if you don't like my source then i don't like your source!!!!nyah nyah na-na-naaaa!!!WAHHHH!!!!

shut up you moron!!! yer just a festering boil on americas ass!!! and mine too!!!

Balls, Old Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:47 AM

Excuse me -- the FactCheck.ortg analysis was not biased. In fact, Vice-Resident Cheney is the one who recommended it.

It is also clear you are still resorting to negative generalities.

I see on closer examination a couple of references to the Las Vegas Law Journal. Why no URL? Better still, why not a link? I provided one to a reasoned analysis whicih indicated that both sides in the Yucca Mountain argument were guilty of false charges against the other.

Why didn't you read it?

Why are you resorting to ad hominem bullshit again?

What are you doing up at this hour?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:41 AM

A

as usual, you do not address the citations brought up against you. The citation you have may certainly be true, but at the same time the ones showing he voted for Yucca numerous OTHER times may also be true. If you want to make a valkid arguement, address the points your oposition brings up, instead of persisting in personal attacks.

"I notice no source for your huge number of misleading citations."
Actually, OG did give his sources, if you bothered to read the post instead of just jumping to attack.

"How many repetitions does it take," Amos ", to make a falsehood sound true? How much bullshit do you have to pour on before it becomes a fact instead of just more of the same old crap?"

MOST of your statements have failed the SRS test, by being from blatently biased sites. I cannot give any credit to anything from THOSE sites, if the mere fact of something being on a conservative site is to be considered as invalidating the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:16 AM

According to FactCheck's analysis your charges are typically distorted and inaccurate. I notice no source for your huge number of misleading citations. How many repetitions does it take, BB, to make a falsehood sound true? How much bullshit do you have to pour on before it becomes a fact instead of just more of the same old crap?

The Facty Check summary (see link for details):

"Bush-Cheney '04 in turn attacked Kerry Aug. 23 with a misleading ad claiming the senator long supported a Yucca Mountain disposal site before promising recently do all he can to block it if elected. In fact, Kerry voted against singling out Yucca Mountain as a storage site as early as 1987."

A