2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:34 AM

That's one huge, tangled knot you've tied yourself there, Tom. As Greg Stephens has told us many, many times before if you label a hippopotamus as a 'butterfly' it doesn't become one.

If I pay good money to go to a folk concert(or one of your gigs)then I expect to hear something resembling the music I've been listening to for the past 40 years; not free form jazz or soft rock or Beethoven's 5th. If I don't get what I paid for I will feel cheated. It's as simple as that and no amount of semantic knot tying will persuade me otherwise.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

I really don't think it's "gratuitous" to express disappointment at the very middle-of-the-road music made by almost all the acts presented at an awards show of a music that I love. If nobody points out that their music is (whisper it) boring, then they will continue to make boring music. Anyway, kids are more thick-skinned than they're given credit for and I don't think they should be patronized.

It would't be considered gratuitous to say such things about X Factor. The only difference is that folk music is supposed to be all nicey nicey and, in the UK, is a parochial scene in which you may well end up bumping into somebody you've dissed.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:19 AM

Well, hurrah for Tom Bliss. He's a lot more patient than I am in explaining the bleedin' obvious. Except that I would (as any fule kno) dump the discredited and terminally-damaged term "f*lk". Because, as the Grammy nominations show, it means absolutely sod all.

And meanwhile, IAFWAFIAWM(or W)WQ. I have.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:09 AM

Shimrod, that argument only holds good if you believe that the word folk is defined the way you personally choose to define it. The trouble is, none of us owns that word (or any word, for that matter - we merely borrow them). Language doesn't stay still - it never has and never will. By various means the meaning of words shifts all the time - some by more than others, but nothing is carved in stone. So the definition of a word is only and always developed through common usage (influenced by the media, but journalists have as much right to develop language as Joe Public does), so that in the end the only safe bet is to define your audience and accept the majority view within that group and choose your words accordingly. As it happens, my PERSONAL take on the word folk, at this point in my life, happens to coincide with yours and Pip's - as it probably does within the world of folk clubs and festivals that's so well-represented here. But it's NOT our word. It belongs to anyone who chooses to speak English. And there is absolutely no doubt that across the wider English-speaking world (or, in this case, the BBC audience) it means something more, something bigger and more amorphous than we might personally be happy with.

In fact the word folk is now so ill-defined, with so many different PERSONAL meanings, that it's general meaning has become as broad as the word Art. You can still use the word yourself howsoever you choose, of course, but if you want reliably to be understood (and this goes for any form of human communication) - to tell people what you are putting in your particular tin - you have to use THEIR language.

In the case of the word folk, it has now become necessary to add a secondary definition, or choose a different word which WILL be reliably understood by the greater population. And the BBC have chosen not to - therefore their use of the word to describe a wide genre of music, as generally accepted by the majority of their audience, is entirely correct. And therefore all the acts in this particular competition are completely acceptable on the roster - because they DO, ALL fit that definition.

I'd go so far as to say that; just as to call a work 'art' you merely have to convince an Art Gallery owner that it is so, by the same token, to call music folk you merely have to convince a Folk Promoter that it is so.

If the promoter chooses to narrow the definition to, say, traditional folk, or contemporary folk, then you have a different set of criteria and your argument would hold more water, but the BBC didn't. Therefore we are wrong to complain about any of these acts being included.

In case you didn't see my post on this topic elsewhere, let me paste again the Grammy nominations for this year. THIS is the way the word folk (and Trad - God help us - it seems!) is understood in the wider world - and until we accept this, and work within it without argument, we will continue to make folk music seem a nasty unfriendly place. Which is a crying shame, considering how friendly we all actually are, and how badly we're in need of some new mates.

Best Traditional Folk Album
Kathy Mattea - Coal [Captain Potato Records]
Tom Paxton -Comedians & Angels [Appleseed Recordings]
Peggy Seeger- Bring Me Home [Appleseed Recordings]
Pete Seeger - At 89 [Appleseed Recordings]
Rosalie Sorrels - Strangers In Another Country [Red House Records]

Best Contemporary Folk/Americana Album
Joan Baez - Day After Tomorrow [Bobolink/Razor & Tie]
Ry Cooder - I, Flathead [Nonesuch Records]
Rodney Crowell - Sex & Gasoline [Work Song/Yep Roc Records]
Emmylou Harris - All I Intended To Be [Nonesuch Records]
Robert Plant & Alison Krauss - Raising Sand [Rounder Records]

Lets all try to play nice, eh?

Tom

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:09 AM

"ps Ruth, if Toothless Mary are young enough why not suggest to them that they enter the award next year?"

I will - after I've booked them. :)

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:04 AM

"I note that some of the 'all music's folk music' types above have attemted to subvert the argument by 'seizing the moral high ground'. Those amongst us that think that a Young Folk Award competition, on national radio, should feature Folk Music are now, apparently, guilty of discouraging young and talented people. That, of course, is dishonest rubbish! I further note that this contemptible tactic is all too prevalent these days among people who are too lazy to construct a proper argument."

I seriously hope you're not including my post in that assessment. There are two discrete issues in this thread: 1) the "what is folk" chestnut; 2) rhe fact that some posters have used this thread as an opportunity to have a rather gratuitous swipe at a couple of talented young kids, and to wheeze on about their own/their favourite band's lack of exposure. My issue is with number 2, though several members seem to have used number 1 as an excuse to indulge in number 2.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:04 AM

heaven forbid if theres ever a new trend in smothering any form of folk music in gratuitous self indulgent meandering 'sophisticated' jazz style

A 19th century folk musician commented ironically:

"heaven forbid if there's ever a new trend in smothering any form of folk music in gratuitous self indulgent meandering styles with that there imported guitar".

"heaven forbid if there's ever a new trend in smothering any form of folk music with gratuitous self indulgent singer-song writers".

"heaven forbid if there's ever a new trend in smothering any form of folk music in gratuitous self indulgent meandering melodeons".

"heaven forbid if there's ever a new trend in smothering any form of folk music in gratuitous self indulgent meandering 11 piece bands. It'll never attract people. Who on earth would want to see and hear that?".

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:37 AM

I note that some of the 'all music's folk music' types above have attemted to subvert the argument by 'seizing the moral high ground'. Those amongst us that think that a Young Folk Award competition, on national radio, should feature Folk Music are now, apparently, guilty of discouraging young and talented people. That, of course, is dishonest rubbish! I further note that this contemptible tactic is all too prevalent these days among people who are too lazy to construct a proper argument.

Read Pip Radish's excellent and exhaustive summary of the debate, posted on 10th Dec., and point out the moral failings in that!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: evansakes
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:37 AM

The list of previous winners makes interesting reading....was there this much fuss about the 'folk' credentials of the winner in previous years?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/youngfolkawards2007/previouswinners.shtml

Maybe it's about time that something a little different gets a moment in the sun?

ps Ruth, if Toothless Mary are young enough why not suggest to them that they enter the award next year?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: breezy
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:11 AM

Thanks for the link Colin

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:07 AM

"Toothless Mary are OK, but the Grinders' are fantastic"

I know we're off topic slightly, but watch as I deftly bring it back...

Do keep in mind, Pip, that the average age of Toothless Mary is about 18 (maybe even younger),whereas Grinder's Misfortune includes a number of experienced folk musicians such as Gavin Davinport, Helena Reynolds and Jon Brenner. While virtual babes by folk standards, I'd hazard a guess that the average age in the band might be 10 - 15 years older than Toothless Mary. I realise there are other issues such as choice of instrumentation, but I love what both are doing, and both bring something exciting and fun to folk music.

Which rather brings me back on topic: you don't necessarily expect the same things - in skill, in aesthetics, in polish - from an 18 year old that you would from a 28 year old, or a 48 year old or a 68 year old. What the YFA is (or ought to be) about, IMHO,is spotting the potential within the contestants to BECOME something rather wonderful - you're not necessarily looking for a finished product.

It is rather unseemly for a bunch of middle-aged people to be bitching about a couple of fresh-faced, enthusiastic and talented kids. Particularly when the bitching starts to encompass "the BBC gives airtime to this rubbish, but won't play me/my favourite band who has/have been around for ages and am/is MUCH better." I can't say categorically that it is a bunch of very sour grapes being trampled here, but that's sure what it looks like.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Colin Randall
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:46 AM

In common with most people at the time this thread started, and perhaps still in common with many, I have not heard Megan and Joe. I greatly look forward to doing so; the definition of folk is in such disarray that it won't greatly matter how I then categorise them. Even without having heard them, I can say that their achievement in the Folk Awards alone means I would happily feature them at my website - and that describes itself as covering folk, folk-rock and roots.

But what has actually changed? I remember Therapy - Dave, Sam and Fiona - playing for the first time at a club, the Spinning Wheel, which I then ran in Darlington, Co Durham. They were at least two-thirds of the way into their first set before they recahed Blackwater Side "for anyone who strayed in here hoping to hear a folk song". Prior to that, they had concentrated mainly on pop (including Cat Stephens and their own material if my memory is correct). And that was close on 40 years ago.

Folk clubs, or at least the ones that have tended to appeal most to me, have always offered platforms for interesting music that would struggle to be called folk on practically any definition. In the absence of a definition on which we seem able to agree, the BBC awards should perhaps be no different.

I can see no problem with robust opinions being expressed on Mudcat. I have dealt out some, and also been on the receiving end. Occasionally, as happened at moments in the Unthanks debate, it descends into something a little nastier. But that is a price I am willing to accept for freedom of expression for anything short of malicious untruths, mindless abuse and incitement to racial hatred or violence.

Mudcat is, overwhelmingly, a force for good. And I am delighted that people such as Jim Moray and Eliza Carthy, and Folkiedave for that matter, are willing to step forward and contribute to the discussions.

Colin Randall
Salut! Live

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: tijuanatime
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:28 AM

It didn't sound a million miles away from what, for example, Chris While and Julie Matthews do, or John Tams and Barry Coope. The sky hasn't fallen, nobody died.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:45 PM

As Greg Stephens said: "A hippopotamus is not a butterfly".

I wouldn't classify Muddy Waters' music as bluegrass, Martin Carthy's as thrash metal, Des O'Connor's as zydeco or Hank Williams' as rap. By the same token, I wouldn't classify what I heard yesterday on Mike Harding's programme, i.e. the song played by the winners of the award, as folk.

Had I not been told it was folk, it wouldn't have occured to me that it was. Had I heard it in another context, I would have assumed it was something from the world of jazz or easy listening.

When people who have been involved with folk music for years cannot recognise something as folk music (or even having its roots in folk music) but are expected to accept that it is, because the powers that be have decreed it so, it brings to mind both the constantly rewritten history described in Orwell's 1984 and the logic of the characters in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

Is Mike Harding the White Rabbit in disguise? I think we should be told!

(Cue: the usual ascerbic responses!)

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: terrier
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:12 PM

Personally, if I was that sax player I heard tonight on the 'folk' awards prog, I would have waited until I could afford a sax that played in tune!( purely for effect, you understand ). What I heard was NOT good music, folk or otherwise. OK, maybe I'm to critical, the judges said they were the best on the night so I should have been there to listen!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM

but surely, its not so much a big 'radical' deal

if

its a Sax

as much as what is being played on that Sax !!??


heaven forbid if theres ever a new trend
in smothering any form of folk music
in gratuitous self indulgent meandering 'sophisticated' jazz style
chocolate Ad / porno-soundtrack note noodling...

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:39 PM

Any decrease on 1981?

Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street had a sax solo in 1978
David Bowie played sax for Steeleye Span on Now We Are Six earlier, 1974?
And when did Jo Freya start playing? Maybe even earlier?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

In reply to MadUncleDave, I don't give a monkey's about instrumentation. Your 'secondly's don't strike me as adequate, though - surely many good pop songs would tick all those boxes, without becoming folk songs.

I think the trouble with defining folk is that we routinely mix up three different criteria: where the material's from, what its style is and who's performing it. Actually, only one of these is really problematic. The first two would give you a workable definition: [1]'traditional songs collected in the wild' plus [2]'new and recent songs in the style of traditional material'. The problems start when you add on [3]'new songs sung by folkies'; since folkies are a wide-ranging lot, this means that the style and sound of 'folk' gets defined by material that's not folk[1] or [2].

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:21 PM

back in the 70's
we used to lable
all that misc. commercial bland middle-of-the-road
non-descript chart friendly girly stuff


"Soft Rock"


its still as good a categorization as anything

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:15 PM

So maybe the answer to the conundrum "Is it folk?" is irrelevant.

Ohhh... folk or acoustic. That's all right then.

([rant on] [Spleen look away now] But this is just what keeps happening, isn't it? 'Folk' meaning 'traditional or in a traditional style' gets labelled as terminally unhip, so we end up with 57 varieties of traditional-but-different or like-folk-only-not-traditional. Then that entire area of folk-with-modifications gets labelled as 'folk' - which in turn is seen as terminally unhip, so a new generation comes along to make yet more modifications and subtractions and dilutions. So you end up with the bizarre situation where 'folk' is effectively defined as 'folk music and other music that isn't folk' - and playing only traditional music is just as eccentric among folkies as being a folkie is in society at large. It's daft and unsustainable. The traditional repertoire is the only thing that's unique to folk; if folkies don't perform traditional material, folk will end up as a label for one kind of pop music (you know, Katie Melua, James Morrison, that kind of area). [/rant off]

I'm not against people writing & performing their own material - I do it myself. I'm just against them calling it folk, or using folk as an umbrella term for anything where the instruments aren't amplified. Apart from anything else, you can do great things with amplification. Toothless Mary are OK, but the Grinders' are fantastic - the missing link between Hamish Moore and Loop Guru.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:14 PM

sax has been used in folk music for quite some time now

Moving Hearts 1981.

Any decrease on 1981?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:51 PM

"Theme from Shaft Ceilidh" ... exactly how I'd describe them myself: chicka-pow pow!

Ah yes - young Tom bunged me the Grinder's Misfortune demo a few months back. Loving their work.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,GUEST, MadUncleDave.
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:49 PM

i personally don't know what classes as folk and what doesn't these days but i personally also feel that Megan and Jo ARE.

oooh bold statement.

i was lucky enough to be at both the semis and the finals and saw them first hand both times and thought they were nothing but exceptional. beautiful voice and gorgeous sax lines are a winning combination whatever genre. Megans stage craft is faultless as for jo, anyone who can play an instrument that competantly at such a young age is worthy of regonition.

as for the matter of "are they? aren't they?" i personally think they most deffinately are.

heres why.

firstly yes they have stripped down there larger band but the combination works. sax has been used in folk music for quite some time now. Bellowhead, Eliza, Folkestra, the green machine, Mike McGoldrick, Sharron Shannon (top pedigree i think) and guess what they all use sax?! so the use of sax in my mind can't be questioned. not conventional but not out of place. and i challenge anyone to defy the use of acoustic guitar as a folk instrument. if they do then they are quite clearly living with their head in some very deep sand.

secondly, for me folk music is music that tells a story that the general audience can relate to. something that creates a community feeling with a room and music that brings people together. i belive megans songs have al those qualities. her lyrics are beautiful poetic and most of all relavent! now for me beautiful lyrics that also comment on a social situation are the building blocks of any great folk song!

so i think their music if folk.

and as people have said before. regardless of whether its folk or not the festival goers will determine there popularity and i think they'll do well.
im definately going to be there.

as for the other acts i thought they were all amazing. Maz was stunning and Jaywalkers were also phenominal. Jays vocals do sound american but its rather difficult to play american music and not have a bluesy twang. you can't picture the royal family belting out bluegrass standards full voice can you? i thought she was exceptional and they were deffinately in the running for me. Tyde too, Lau take note!

rant over. feel free to comment what you will but that is my standpoint.

finally. big up Jim Moray for fighting the corner of up and coming acts and saying what he thinks. its refreshing when people can.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:29 PM

Sorry Breezy. Really. I just get carried away...

(but not as much as my local under 16s).

Ruth, I would describe Toothless Mary as "Theme from Shaft Ceilidh" ... a good thing, in my book, natch. With a touch of Anglo Acid Jazz...

Meanwhile, check this out: Grinders Misfortune Society. If you don't love it I'll not only eat my hat, but those of every Mudcatter...

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:11 PM

I listened to the programme this evening and I`m sure Jim Moray said words to the effect that he was enthusiastic about the way "folk music" was developing. If what I heard from Megan and her fellah had the remotest connection with that genre then J.Moray`s backside is a banjo!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: breezy
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:01 PM

Please refrain from profanities, its not essential.

and under 16s may be reading this

let us retain some decorum

hemel

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:55 PM

Hey Spleen Cringe: I know it's not exactly what you ordered, but how's this working for you?

Toothless Mary


:D

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM

"The fact that I would like to see the award won by a motley bunch of deranged teenage fuckwits wreaking havoc with hurdy gurdies, bagpipes, jazzastic drumming and a shitload of reverb, feedback, fuzz, sustain and general mayhem is probably neither here or there, as no such beast deigned to enter, more's the pity. If you are out there, however, PM me. I will put your album out."

And I'll book them.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: breezy
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:35 PM

I listened to the prog tonight ,whilst watching me boys train at rugby.

then I saw this thread.

I heard the winning act as driving me boys home, they are 15-16 year olds, and they had to listen

they wondered what I saw and see in the prog at the best of times

I think Jim Moray is a fantastic fellow for coming on the mudcat.

I liked The Jackie O when she played at the St Albans roots comp some time back , especially as she sang enchantedly

I prefer 'songs' with substance and thats what I'm searching for as a singer.

Trouble now is everyone thinks they can write.

I am confused by John Kelly's version of 'Spencer the Rover', is it his/yours John if you are reading this - own adaptation ? Very original but we have all sung it from time to time.

Cant stand young precocious talent.

Mind you we wont complain about 16 year olds, even 14 year olds competing for their country in sport, but you have to be 16 to do lots of other things

Good luck to Joe and Megan, the world is your oyster, go for it.

And to all the rest of us, tough luck.

Hey Diane, always nice to hear from you.

Paul, did you play the CDs?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:33 PM

I've kept out of this spleen-fest, but am now moved to add my tuppence worth.

It's not the "old giffers who are undoubtedly talented and have something to offer but, when the chips are down, are still old giffers" award.

It's also not the "young traditionalists who are so steeped in the 1954 definition they have it tattooed across their arses" award.

It's not the "cutting edge radio station showcasing edgy, experimental post-folk explorations" award.

And finally it's not the paranoia, paranoia, everybody's out to get me and the bastards at the BBC are whispering derogatory shit at me through the walls again" award.

It's an award for kids doing folk or acoustic material live, handed out by a largely mainstream, MOR radio station. The winners ain't my cup of tea by a long chalk (more of this later), but they tick all the right boxes for the award, do what they do well and are undoubtedly talented, engaging and perfect for that R2 crossover market.

If Ray Davies and Elvis Costello (brilliant artists both) can play Cambridge Folk Festival, people can happily offer us Cliff Richard and Buddy Holly songs at my local folk club and Fleet Foxes (fantastic band!) can be feted as folk's great new hope, Megan and Joe can win this award.

The fact that I would like to see the award won by a motley bunch of deranged teenage fuckwits wreaking havoc with hurdy gurdies, bagpipes, jazzastic drumming and a shitload of reverb, feedback, fuzz, sustain and general mayhem is probably neither here or there, as no such beast deigned to enter, more's the pity. If you are out there, however, PM me. I will put your album out.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Doffing Mistress
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

I've just looked back on the BBC's original documentation for the YFAs and found this:

"We are looking for the best group, duo or soloist performing folk,
traditional or acoustic music or song with roots in any culture".

So maybe the answer to the conundrum "Is it folk?" is irrelevant.

Having just heard the show it is hard to argue with the judges decision. I was there on the night and somewhat seduced by the performance and personalities of some of the other contestants. I would not have put Megan and Joe at the top. However on radio they sounded worthy winners. Obviously the judges have a much better ear than I have. Maybe there's another discussion to be had; is folk about the songs or the performance, or both.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:30 PM

"But these are kids, for goodness' sake."

so why not forget about categorising them
into harsh cruely divisive music genre based
talent shows..

and just bring back


"Junior Showtime" !!!???

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:23 PM

Pip (and you know that you and I agree on many things), I can only say how the thread looked as it's developed. I see where you're coming from, as I was one of the ones arguing during Bunnygate that it wasn't about the quality of the song, but the fact that the category was inappropriate. But these are kids, for goodness' sake.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:17 PM

As suggested here, it should all dissolve into an EBC, SBC, and WBC folk awards but, for what it's worth, I liked the 2 unaccompanied singers - as just heard on MH.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:11 PM

No the judges have missed the point.

They are entitled to run the competition how they like.

And I am sure the winners are all very worthy.

However many of us find ourselves excluded from BBC folk circles because folk is defined in a very narrow manner indeed when it suits them.

For myself it truly doesn't matter. For people who have devoted their lives and far superior talents to the world of folk music - quite simply it stinks to high heaven.

That's all.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Cotwold Maid
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM

OK well we've heard it now, so now am I allowed to say, not folk, dull, repetitive, unworthy winners, set against talented musicians and singers? Some sort of joke?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

Ruth - that's two comments from GUESTs and one from a member (Matt M); I'll exclude WLD, as his comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. The tone of those three comments was fairly critical, but I don't think they're representative of the thread. I stand by what I said earlier - we (most of us) aren't questioning whether Megan and Joe are good enough to win an award; we're questioning whether they're folk enough to win (or even be entered for) a Folk Award. That question hasn't really been addressed, as far as I can see; there seems to be a lot of resistance to asking it at all.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

Martin Snodin, Jim Moray: exactly, well said. The way this topic has gone disgusts me, the intolerant, rush-to-judgement UK folk scene at its very worst. Guilty until proved innocent, the mob damning with at most faint praise and weasel words.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Martin Snodin
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:26 PM

I was at the awards on Friday and absolutely loved the winning duo. As a promoter, I programme folk/roots across a pretty wide range spectrum (Carthy/Swarbrick, Dougie MacLean, Tams/Coope, Fox/Luckley, Tom McConville, The Winterset, etc - all have appeared for me in the last few months). I enjoyed all the acts last Friday - all very good quality. But for me, Megan & Joe Henwood were worthy winners - I would have voted for them. Taken a listen on the Mike Harding show tonight (or 'Listen Again') - it should dispel any notion that what Megan has on her outdated website is representative.

I do have to agree with Jim that to be overly-critical of budding musicians of this age range must be very hurtful for them. They aren't 'marketing their wares' yet - they just entered a folk awards contest. Proud mums and dads in attendance, I just hope they don't read this whole dispiriting thread.

Martin

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Pip:

Cotswold Maid: "But what I object to majorly, is the fake rubbish American accent. What's that about? You're English aren't you? Well start singing in your own accent then. Can't imagine anyone is going to bother seeing them at festivals this summer, too many other good acts young and old to see "

"I guess the Henwoods will get a slot at Cambridge, but that's about it."

wld: "Basically what sickens, is an oligarchy of mediocrity."

"To be brutally honest, I think it is totally understandable why some people thing folk is a joke, when they are presented with acts like these flagged up as the best of a generation. "

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:12 PM

One more comment.

Diane:

generally, yes I do think people should have the courtesy to find out about an artist and listen to them before whingeing about how they're quite sure they won't like them and they're not"f*lk" (whatever the fuck THAT means nowadays) anyway.

Jim M:

It's about crushing young people before they have had a chance to do anything. All I'm asking is that you reserve judgment (good or bad) till you've heard the act in question

Quick roundup of comments so far.

Richard Bridge: "Sounds very smoothiechops and not very folk"

Banjiman: "Even with my pretty wide interpretation of what is folk...I'm not sure that the songs on MySpace fit ? ... Lovely voice though."

Harmonium Hero: "THIS IS NOT FOLK MUSIC. Not by any definition I am aware of. ... I'm not criticising the music - It's very pleasant, and well performed - but it shouldn't qualify for a folk award."

Me: "Very nice, very competent, good easy listening. Megan H has a fine voice, which probably sounds even better with less going on behind it. But, if it's possible to say "this isn't folk", then I'm with John - this isn't folk."

Richard was posting without having heard the music, and yes, he was saying that he thought that he wouldn't like them and that they weren't folk. But what Paul, John and I have said is

a) we've listened to the music
b) it's very nice
c) it's not folk

We're not rushing to judgment without listening to the music, and we're not 'crushing' anyone. The music's well written, well performed and generally very nice; the people playing it deserve to go far.

But it's not folk.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 01:14 PM

OK Dave we would love to take you up on your offer re the radio show. I suggest we take this off this site so please contact us by email which you can get from our websites as we do not know how to do the private massage thing here on mudcat.

Re venues in Sheffield here is the list of paid performances we have done this year in and around the Sheffield area, The Boardwalk (supporting the acoustic angels) Three marry lads (Cutthorpe) Chesterfield folk club, The Moon (now closed down)The Sanctuary cocktail bar (next to the cathedral)The Cross Scythes hotel Tottley, The Rising sun and the Riverside Cafe.

As well as the above we have been found Loitering for the love of music at Fagins, The Red House and the Sheffield folk festival survivor's session. (Yes we have performed at the festival and MCfat knows us well) So we are well covered for venues in Sheffield.

Thanks

Tony and Una

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:55 PM

. . . and to whoever it was that whinged that the YFA final is just across town for me, no it isn't. A couple of years ago it was at The Sage in Gateshead. So what? If you actually have an interest in who, among the under-20s, is up-and-coming, you GO. Wherever it is.

These performers have worked extremely hard to get where they are. They deserve support. (only in my not so humbe opinion, obviously).

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

and no, I can't be arsed to reply to everyone personally

This is quite understandable. However, maybe next time you could address your comments to statements that have actually been made, rather than shouting at the baying mob of last century, narrow-minded, hey nonnies in tie-dyes in your head? I think it'd be more productive.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:29 PM

Just skimming this very rapidly and no, I can't be arsed to reply to everyone personally. So generally, yes I do think people should have the courtesy to find out about an artist and listen to them before whingeing about how they're quite sure they won't like them and they're not"f*lk" (whatever the fuck THAT means nowadays) anyway.

Somebody or other that I've never heard of thinks that being around on the fringes somewhere for x years gives him the right to slag off anybody he feels like. No, it doesn't. Speaking for myself, I never talk about anything or anyone without having first acquired considerable knowledge. No, I don't write professionally any more (nor have I, either, anything to do with the BBC nowadays). So I scribble down answers to queries on fora. For the edification of those who actually want to know. Not for the baying mob of last century, narrow-minded, hey nonnies in tie-dyes to whom professionalism is anathema and experimentation and innovation words that they cannot spell but sneer at anyway.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM

Sorry but you are so far wrong about Jack Hudson it must be embarrassing for you. Guess your opinion is based on seeing him 30 years ago………….

Not as many as that I am happy to say. And I have no reason to be embarassed whatsoever. I often say that artists are not to my taste. I can include virtually any pop, house, garage, bashment etc etc in that. I don't ever remember saying they are no good.

I'd like to see Jack's gig list on his website - except the website seem to be carefully hidden. There is no gig list on his myspace page. Where he seems to be describing himself as a country singer more than anything else. How do I find out where he is playing?

Perhaps he wants to keep his music pure!!

As for yourselves, you are clearly getting lots of paid work and have a website and a myspace so I am sure I will be able to catch your performances as soon as someone in this area books you or as soon as you find a venue to promote yourself (and Jack perhaps).

In fact if you contact Mike Steele at the Burton St. Project Sheffield he will give you a free room and his P.A. All you have to do is provide the audience. Not a folk club but it has a bar and if you want real ale he will put it on once you have convinced him you have sold sufficient tickets to make it worth his while.

I have a radio show. That reflects my personal taste too. If you want to reflect your personal taste via a radio show - many areas have a community radio station nowadays and most are desperate for people prepared to put the time and effort into doing a weekly show.

But I am away for a couple of weeks in January and unless I find someone to cover it then they will play pre-recorded stuff.

I am happy to give you a two hour slot on January 9th and you can play what you like. I will show you how it is structured and I would like you to stick to that, but otherwise the airtime is all yours. Play your own record non-stop if you like.

That date happens to be free but there will be others coming up in
the year.

So there you are a new venue for nothing and a whole two hours of radio to yourself.

Now please don't accuse me of wanting to keep folk pure again.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

I `ad that Megan Henwood in my cab the other day.
I said, "I see you`ve got`em all riled up on that Mudcat about what is and what aint folk. Even that Jim Moray`s `aving a go, `e who was described by Mike `arding as the "most fantastic" performer `e `ad `eard for years"
She said, "`ave you seen my MySpace slot? What do you think?"
I said, "Yeah, I`ve seen it. I don`t go a bundle on the songs but you`ve got a luvly sofa!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM

Whether it is or isn't folk is another issue

I think whether it is or isn't folk is the main issue that people here have been commenting on. I've been to the MySpace page linked above & listened to some of the music. What I heard there was tuneful, nicely arranged and well performed, with interesting lyrics and excellent vocals; if everything they do is up to that quality, Megan and Joe should go far.

But what I heard on that MySpace page wasn't folk. To put it another way, I don't know how you'd define folk so as to include that kind of music. I saw an interview with James Yorkston recently where he rejected the label of 'folk' for what he does; he said something like "I just write not-very-popular pop songs". And this is someone who cites Anne Briggs as an influence, has worked with the Watersons, and has recorded Edward, I Know My Love and High Germanie, among others. (And was supported by Jim Moray the last time I saw him, although now I come to think of it that was a while ago. I must get out more.)

Anyway - we (most of us) aren't questioning whether Megan and Joe are good enough to win an award; we're questioning whether they're folk enough to win (or even be entered for) a Folk Award.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

me.. I blame Sixth Form / Further Education College
Performance Arts courses
for the dire mediocrity
of reasonably technically competant over stylised X Factor aspirational teen wannabes.

Shame their raw inate talent gets so sqashed and over-groomed.

But, like most here, I've not heard any of this new bunch yet..
so genuinely hope they are truly exceptions to the general rule.


Kerfuffle definitely are... so there is still some hope for the future !

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 09:44 AM

And don't worry. You can be a complete scuffler. There are no health checks and no one will come round visiting and checking up on you. BBC personnel joyfully accepted.