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Origins: Barbara Allen

DigiTrad:
BARBARA ALLEN
BARBARA ALLEN (2)
BARBARA ALLEN (5)
BARBARA ELLEN (3)
BAWBEE ALLAN


Related threads:
Barbara Allen - Martinmas (19)
(origins) ADD: Barb'ry Allen (37)
Barbara Allen earliest version? (85)
Barbara Allen anomaly (53)
Barbara Allen (35)
(origins) Info Barbara Allen (49)
(origins) Origins: Barbara Allan (Sarah Makem) (16)
(origins) Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ? (37)
(origins) Why Did Barbara Allen Refuse? (113)
Lyr Req: Barbary Allen #84 (Sheila Kay Adams) (6)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (different versions) (75)
Lyr Add: Bobby Allen (Afro-American) (3)
Chord Req: Barb'ry Allen (Tom Rush) (5)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Phoebe Smith) (20)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Bob Dylan) (3)
Lyr Req: Barbry Allen (from Steve Tilston) (5)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Vic Legg) (2)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Shirley Collins) (2)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Susan Reed) (5)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Hedy West) (3)
Lyr Req: Barb'ry Allen (from Tom Rush) (6)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Jimmy Stewart) (4)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (from Fred Jordan) (5)
Barbara Allen in '30's Film (37)
Lyr Req: Barbara Allen (7)
Lyr Req: Barbara Ellen / Barbara Allen (15)


GUEST 04 May 15 - 03:48 PM
Richie 04 May 15 - 12:16 PM
Steve Gardham 04 May 15 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 04 May 15 - 11:22 AM
Lighter 04 May 15 - 08:48 AM
Richie 03 May 15 - 10:31 PM
GUEST 03 May 15 - 04:39 PM
Steve Gardham 03 May 15 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 03 May 15 - 03:08 PM
Steve Gardham 03 May 15 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 03 May 15 - 10:31 AM
Steve Gardham 03 May 15 - 10:06 AM
Lighter 02 May 15 - 06:31 PM
Steve Gardham 02 May 15 - 03:53 PM
GUEST 02 May 15 - 03:18 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 15 - 11:19 AM
Richie 02 May 15 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Anne Neilson 02 May 15 - 09:43 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 15 - 09:37 AM
Richie 02 May 15 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 15 - 04:10 AM
Steve Gardham 01 May 15 - 06:35 PM
Jim Carroll 01 May 15 - 11:23 AM
Lighter 01 May 15 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 15 - 08:25 AM
Lighter 01 May 15 - 07:46 AM
Jim Brown 01 May 15 - 05:57 AM
Richie 30 Apr 15 - 08:25 PM
Richie 30 Apr 15 - 08:22 PM
Lighter 30 Apr 15 - 08:18 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Apr 15 - 05:47 PM
Richie 30 Apr 15 - 05:18 PM
Richie 30 Apr 15 - 03:49 PM
Richie 29 Apr 15 - 08:24 PM
Lighter 29 Apr 15 - 07:59 PM
Richie 29 Apr 15 - 07:56 PM
Richie 29 Apr 15 - 07:45 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Apr 15 - 06:41 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Apr 15 - 04:56 PM
The Sandman 29 Apr 15 - 04:46 PM
Lighter 29 Apr 15 - 04:30 PM
Richie 29 Apr 15 - 03:59 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Apr 15 - 03:45 PM
Richie 29 Apr 15 - 02:58 PM
Lighter 29 Apr 15 - 12:48 PM
Richie 29 Apr 15 - 12:16 PM
Lighter 28 Apr 15 - 08:31 PM
Jim Brown 28 Apr 15 - 05:41 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Apr 15 - 04:22 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 15 - 03:48 PM

Correct Ritchie-----we"ll never know positively so the field is wide open for all sorts of speculation by people with all kinds of agendas


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 04 May 15 - 12:16 PM

Hi,

The "Scottish" ballad by Knipp has been discussed in some detail by Lighter, Mick Pierce, and others in another thread. We'll never know positively because we don't have the text. It is important since it places a date, 1666, to the ballad which predates the c.1690 broadside.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 May 15 - 11:27 AM

Hi Guest,
Please read my posting 2 May 3.53, and Lighter's following posting.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 15 - 11:22 AM

Note the question mark.

I hold no regard for the self confessed rapist Pepys but surely some credence may be accorded to his statement that this was a Scotch ballad. He after all made the statement at the time and was in a better position than most to make an informed comment.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 04 May 15 - 08:48 AM

Pepys collected broadsides but he was an enthusiast, not an "expert" or "ballad scholar."

Since Elizabeth Knepp (or as Pepys has it "Knipp") was a well-known London actress, what evidence there is makes it unlikely that her song (or version of it) actually came from Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 15 - 10:31 PM

Hi,

While the thread is drifting, I'm trying to sort out my versions to organize some conclusions - there are many versions and I'm trying to give the older ones preference.

This verse from Nora Hicks MS., which has never been public, has an additional motive for Barbara's rejection:

The more she looked, the more she wept
Till she bursted out crying.
I'll bid farewell to my mother dear,
For she would not let me have him. [Nora Hicks c. 1880 Mast's Gap NC]

This family line dates back to the late 1600s in Virginia.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 15 - 04:39 PM

Scots came into general use in the 19th C. prior to that Scotch was the accepted term.

It surprises me that Pepys with his expertise and who was a ballad collector/expert? should name a production, claimed to be from somewhere South of Watford, as Scotch.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 15 - 03:29 PM

Richie,
Apologies for thread drift once again. We ought to have a special section for marked thread drifts like this one.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 15 - 03:08 PM

"Bert was rather cute with this one."
Yes he was, but his point remains the same.
As I said, Bert's scholarship was problematic- but the, considering some recent claims on "folk", the song would have no problems fitting in with today's non-definition
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 15 - 02:54 PM

In which tradition would you place 'The Coal-owner and the Pitman's Wife', Jim? Bert was rather cute with this one.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 15 - 10:31 AM

"The word 'traditional' is only useful when both the user and the audience have a good idea"
Thankfully we have a literature, a history of research and a pedigree to fall back on to sort out the wheat from the chaff as far as folk/traditional song is concerned.
There may come a time when those who would have us accept the misuse and misunderstanding of the terms as valid, produce their own literature and scholarship - not in my time, I hope.
Then we'll have to follow Bert Lloyd's advice:
"If "Little Boxes" and "The Red Flag" are folk songs, we need a new term to describe "The Outlandish Knight", "Searching for Lambs" and "The Coal-owner and the Pitman's Wife".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 15 - 10:06 AM

The word 'traditional' is only useful when both the user and the audience have a good idea which 'tradition' they are referring to, and in fact that both parties are referring to the same tradition. For instance one party might be referring to the print tradition and the other to oral tradition. Then of course there are the folk scene tradition, literary tradition and a whole host of others.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 02 May 15 - 06:31 PM

"Scotch" simply may also mean typical of the Scots or related to Scotland. All it would take to make a "Scotch song" might be a setting in Scotland or in "the North Countrie." The stage song may have been composed in London, as Steve suggests.

While it's tempting to see "faut" as the garbled word, which would make the song at least presumptively of Scots origin, it would seem odd to me that a text Scottish enough to include one Lowland word would not include at least one or two others.

We all share a fairly consistent idea of what "traditional" means, but at times it can be almost as misleading as "folk." A song in the abstract is "traditional" if most of its known texts/tunes have been subjected to usually gradual changes over time within a community of some size. But when a specific version is called "traditional," that can seem to imply that it has come down with little change practically from time immemorial.

"Sir Patrick Spens" is "traditional." Yet MacColl's or anyone else's version, including those of the 19th century ,may not be strictly "traditional" in the sense that they are virtually intact survivals of something very old.

Just so we know what we're talking about.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 15 - 03:53 PM

Hi GUEST
The song referred to was 'Scotch' not 'Scots'. I have it on reliable historical authority that the word 'Scotch' was used in 17th/18th century London to describe any song that used pseudo dialect from anywhere north of Watford. It was similar to what we might call 'stage Irish' nowadays. Or 'Bumpkin'songs of the 19thc. They were mostly written in London using pseudo dialect and often written for plays and pantomimes.

It always reminds me of the so-called Scots version which as Richie says featured heavily in anthologies but is rarely given from oral tradition and when it is it varies very little from the book version. I have no proof for this at all. Just a hunch.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 15 - 03:18 PM

A Scots song picked up in London in 1666 must have been extant, in one form or another, in Scotland prior to that date, the question being how long would it take at that period for a ballad/song to become so well known as to merit a mention by Pepys.

Fau"t would fit better than fault from a Scottish singers point of view.

Martinmas was the time of year when a "mart" ie. a steer was slaughtered and salted down to see the family through the winter and may have suggested to a Scots composer the mention of blood letting.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 15 - 11:19 AM

"IMO, the answer can only be 'maybe', because almost certainly these story songs were being sung before they were being printed."
Couldn't agree more - all we can say for certain about printed versions of songs and ballads is that they have been around at least since..... whenever.
"is quite entitled to seek out what constitutes the best version"
Again , agree wholeheartedly.
The problems arise when singers make claims beyond the evidence they have on the songs they have adapted - MacColl seldom did this (I can't remember him doing so) - Bert Lloyd did it all the time and left a minefield of problems in his wake.
Bert was one of the most entertaining speakers I have ever heard, but quite often his desire to entertain and impress made some of his statement quite unreliable.
With MacColl, the opposite was the case - he seldom divulged his own input into a song, but he made none of the claims of 'authenticity' that Bert was in the habit of making.
I remember sitting though a talk Bert once gave on Irish instrumental music and, even with my limited knowledge of the subject back then thinking, "hang on a minute..!!) - I enjoyed the talk immensely.
The difference between the two, it seems to me, is that Bert didn't always live up to the reputation he had built up for himself, while Ewan didn't always meet the reputation others had given him.
Aside from this, the quality of what we have been given by source singers and storytellers is often underrated.
We once recorded a magnificent long version of an Irish legendary tale from a Clare storyteller (The Gille Dacker and His Horse)
I knew it had been included in P W Joyce's 'Old Celtic Romances', and assumed that this is where it had come from.
When I mentioned that Joyce had published it, the storyteller replied, "I know, but he got it all wrong" - when we checked, he had!
I still find one of the most offensive statements ever made by a collector/academic was that made by Phillips Barry (who should have known better), to the song Lakes of Col Finn in the New Green Mountain Songster:

"Popular tradition, however, does not mean popular origin. In the case of our ballad, the underlying folklore is Irish de facto, but not de jure: the ballad is of Oriental and literary origin, and has sunk to the level of the "folk" which has the keeping of folklore. To put it in a single phrase, memory not invention, is the function of the folk."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 15 - 11:10 AM

Jim,

It's not that his parent didn't know traditional ballads, that has nothing to do with attributing fully formed ballads to fragments and dim recollections. He might have remembered his father's singing-- these familial attributions are something that happen to perpetuate traditional versions as being completely "traditional". There are only so many ballads a singer knows from his family. I have made no detailed study- but it has been something I've sensed for a while. I have no problem with ballad recreation- only with ballad recreations that are attributed as traditional- the numbers are staggering.

John Jacob Niles learned a number of ballads from his father :)

Anne,

My postulation is that when writers refer to a ballad going back to an original print version, they are actually referring to, in some cases, a traditional version that has been printed. Obviously some print versions are merely copies or edited copies of another print version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 02 May 15 - 09:43 AM

Going back to the original concern -- can there be an Ur-version of a ballad?

IMO, the answer can only be 'maybe', because almost certainly these story songs were being sung before they were being printed. (A cynical view of hack writers would have them feeding off existing stories/songs rather than creating new themes themselves.)

But with regard to recent comments about MacColl and his version of Sir Patrick Spens -- I firmly believe that any singer NOT brought up in the oral tradition is quite entitled to seek out what constitutes the best version (most complete or satisfactory) in his/her opinion: this may involve adding stanzas from other versions, or tidying up lines to make a more appealing listening experience.

(I'm one of several people -- Ronnie Clark and Gordeanna McCulloch-- who offer ballad workshops in which we actively encourage people to make their own choices about fitting text to tunes, and choosing verses from a selection of alternative texts.
So I'm not really in thrall to the notion of an Ur-text, but more than delighted with the grand proliferation of versions collected over centuries!)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 15 - 09:37 AM

"and not be covers of another persons song or ballad. MacColl had his father"
According to those who knew MacColl and his father, the songs were being sung in the family long before MacColl "needed" such validity - I'm sure the cinema queues in Manchester in the 30s did't care one way or another.
The indication was that MacColl knew these songs all his life in one form or another.
The need for such "validity", to my recollection, is very much part of the latter days of the revival, where many people are claiming to be traditional performers o the flimsiest evidence.
MacColl, at no time in my hearing, claimed to be a traditional singer, as many revivalists have on the basis that they heard "me Granny sing 'Knock 'em in the old Kent Road' at one time'
The somewhat spiteful claim that he invented them has no evidential validity and, compared to songs that were being found throughout the latter half of the 20th century, there is no reason at all why they shouldn't have been sung.
I certainly heard his mother Betsy sing on numerous occasions - or was it all a dream maybe?   
Jim Carrroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 02 May 15 - 09:14 AM

Hi,

A bit of thread drift here. Some traditional performers needed additional songs and ballads that they wanted to perform that were outside the scope of their and their family repertoire. Since they are labeled "traditional" performers for whatever reason they felt that these new songs and ballads need to be attributed to them or their family- and not be covers of another persons song or ballad. MacColl had his father- this is my opinion. The number of questionable attributions is vast and this is nothing new or surprising.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 15 - 04:10 AM

Actually, he didn't publish that many books - some which were aimed at providing revival fodder and two, which in my opinion, were among the most important collections, 'Doomsday in the Afternoon' and 'Songs of the Travellers'
MacColl was not a scholar as such and he mistrusted academia - quite often his scholarship was somewhat dodgy and tied to his interested in promoting singing and encouraging others others to sing - the description of his speed-reading a book or article in preparation for a Critics Group meeting (can't remember if we used it in our programmes on him) was a revealing one.
The work he did on singing was, in my opinion, groundbreaking (and virtually impossible to discuss on forums like this due to the infighting that is one of our sad legacies of the early days of the revival).
I honestly don't know why he didn't publish his parents songs, or why academics like Goldstein, who was aware of them and referred to them often in song notes, didn't encourage him to do so or follow them up himself (he even produced an LP of Ewan and his mother).
I don't know if he remembered enough of them to make the exercise worthwhile - he remembered them being sung around the house and, as I said, many, possibly all of them were fragmentary and added to (Eddie Frow's description seemed to be a fairly accurate one).
MacColl wrote very little - articles mainly, even his autobiography was tossed off over a shortish period, then laid aside and eventually, published posthumously.
Face-to-face teaching, interviews and a very occasional radio programme, rather than the printed word were his thing (still reckon 'The Song Carriers has never been bettered in over half-a-century)
Sorry I can't be more help than that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 May 15 - 06:35 PM

Just a simple question for you, Jim. You probably don't know the answer but an opinion would do.

MacColl during his lifetime published many books of songs. The only one which (in my opinion) is fully reliable as being totally what was sung by source singers is 'Traveller's Songs'. Having published all of these excellent books, and taking into account what you say about his father's songs, it seems very strange to me that he should put all that effort into these books with no scholarly collection of his father's or his mother's songs! Can you think of why this might be so?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 15 - 11:23 AM

Print and person adaptation has always been a feature of song transmission as far as we know - Anna Brown and all those cited by David Buchan in 'Ballad and the Folk' are worth bearing in mind in this respect.
Duncan Williamson had an extremely fine repertoire of traditional ballads - inauthentic?
Many of the singers we recorded supplemented their songs from printed garlands and ballad sheets Tom Lenihan and Martin Reidy in particular (see Clare County Library collection above)
Walter Pardon gathered together his 2 uncles' songs and, where they were incomplete, filled them in from wherever he could get them.
The problem is in all this that we have no idea of how the oral tradition worked as the songs were treated as artifacts and the singers were never asked their opinions - this, I believe, has left the field open for all sorts of unsubstantiated speculation. to be presented as fact when there are no grounds for doing so.
In our experience, the oral/print question is an extremely complex one.
That 'the folk' were capable of creating good songs themselves has become beyond doubt since we began our work with Travellers and here in West Clare - in the case of the latter, we have found dozens withing a ten mile radius of this fairly remote one-street town and have been told of many more which have disappeared.
As for the quality of a song being an indication of validity - I suggest that you seek out Roscommon Traveller, Martin McDonagh's exquisite version of 'Lady Margaret' (Young Hunting) or Mary Baylon of Louth's 'Johnny Scot' or the County Dublin version of Prince Robert ('Lord Abore').
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 15 - 10:46 AM

Thanks, Jim. My point was not there's anything wrong with MacColl's "SPS," but quite the opposite: that as it is, IMO, the finest known version of the song in both text and tune, its very excellence might suggest to some that it is actually the "ur-text," miraculously preserved for at least two hundred years with scarcely a change.

That would surely be wishful thinking.

The secondary point, which is more relevant to Richie's "Barbara Allen" project, is that it isn't easy to determine just when and how a presumably orally transmitted version of a song came into existence. The crucial early evidence is usually lacking.


And just to put it on record before it slips my mind:

Some would claim that MacColl's "SPS" would be "inauthentic" if he, as a literate student of balladry, put it together himself - even if some of it came from his father, a lifelong traditional singer. But undoubtedly like his own sources, William Miller made conscious changes as well (putting a new tune to "Calton Weaver," for example). Some alterations may even have been influenced by print. In this case, I'd say that whatever MacColl may or may not have done to his father's song or fragment, the result would still be in "the tradition," since MacColl (unlike Lloyd) grew up with such songs - and his "SPS" is stylistically indistinguishable from both the bulk and the best of them.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 15 - 08:25 AM

"The possibility that MacColl's may be the "ur-text," miraculously recovered from oral tradition..."
According to Salford historians, Ruth and Eddie Frow, MacColl's father had hundreds of ballads and queer old songs, many in bits and pieces, which he sang everywhere he went - Trades Union socials, in the pub....." wherever.
MacColl was reported by the BBC man who first recruited him for the radio, to have been discovered busking for pennies from a cinema queue in Manchester , singing ballads and songs, in English and Scots Gaelic, in the hungry 1930s - long before the folk song revival was ever a twinkle in anybody's eye.

"Ewan MacColl was himself a victim of the Depression. The son of an unemployed Glasgow steelworker, who had moved to Salford in search of work during the twenties, he had suffered every privation and humiliation that poverty could contrive for him from the age of ten. His memories of his early years are still bitter—like his recollection of how to kill aimless time in a world where there was nothing else to do: "You go in the Public Library. And the old men are there standing against the pipes to get warm, all the newspaper parts are occupied, and you pick a book up. I can remember then that you got the smell of the unemployed, a kind of sour or bitter-sweet smell, mixed in with the smell of old books, dust, leather and the rest of it. So now if I pick up, say, a Dostoievsky—immediately with the first page, there's that smell of poverty in 1931."
MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queueing up for the three-and-sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audi¬tion for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly.
PROSPERO AND ARIEL (The rise and fall of radio, a personal recollection – D G Bridson 1971)"

MacColl certainly did learn ballads and songs from his parents - many of them he supplemented with published texts.
I would have thought that following the fiasco of attempting to attribute Irish Traveller, John Reilly's ballads as having been learned from a book, academics would have learned their lesson - apparently not.
Some of the rarest ballads imaginable have been turning up from some of the most 'unlikely' sources - Maid and the Palmer', 'Prince Robert', 'Young Hunting' 'The Suffolk Miracle', 'Johnny Scot' - all within the last 40 years.
There is no reason at all that MacColl's father should not have been such a source - I can't think of one anyway.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 01 May 15 - 07:46 AM

> But actually I wonder how the existence of an independent oral tradition of a version similar to Ramsay's could ever be demonstrated, given that we know that his text was readily available as a potential model from 1740 onwards.

I doubt that it could.

But why is that even important. Many, many years ago I too was caught up in the idea of a "pure" oral tradition that had produced numberless masterpieces.

But the number of real masterpieces is limited and the best - which are unlikely to have circulated very far beyond the family circle - usually from "questionable" (i.e., rather literate) sources.

Steve and I have recently been in discussion about MacColl's "Sir Patrick Spens," which he claims to have learned from his father. Did he really? Or did he cobble it together mostly on his own?

The real question is what difference does it make? If learned from his father, where did his father's source learn it? Somebody put it together at some time, and that somebody had a very special talent for Scottish balladry.

The result, which to me is a "timeless" as a song can be, is possibly of greater interest than exactly when it appeared - which at the moment is about 1950, with little influence until it began to be "covered" by others in the 1960s.

The possibility that MacColl's may be the "ur-text," miraculously recovered from oral tradition in the twentieth century is close to zero. And we'd have know way to know it without written documents.

What lies behind individual texts of "Spens" and "Barbara Allen" would be nice to know, but even informed conjecture can only go so far. We don't even know just how much of "Tam Lin" came from Robert Burns. In theory most all of it, even though it's based on a folk tale.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 01 May 15 - 05:57 AM

> The version is reprinted from Grieg (his A version) and was collected in 1905 from Mrs. Gillespie

Thank, Richie. Yes, that's the one. Friedman doesn't give the date and the singer, so thanks for that information too. As Riley says, nine stanzas are basically the same as in Ramsay, including the give-away change from "hooly, hooly" to "slowly, slowly" the second time round. It's certainly too close for it to be taken evidence of an independent tradition of this version not derived from Ramsay's text.

As for the additions, the kiss stanza seems to be fairly common and I imagine it could easily have been slipped in, perhaps even unconsciously, by a singer who knew other versions than the Ramsay text. I guess the gifts and the family dialogue stanzas could have been inserted by a hack writer, as Riley suggests, but I presume she is just speculating here about a hypothetical printed text that might have existed. On the other hand, couldn't a version like this equally well have been created in singing tradition, in an environment where singers knew and respected the printed Ramsay text but also knew other parts of the story that were not in Ramsay? That sort of interaction of print and orality might not pass as "traditional" for Riley, for whom I guess "tradition" = purely oral tradition, but maybe a more inclusive understanding of tradition is called for, not least in a region like Lowland Scotland with a long tradition of promoting literacy and a rich stock of printed song books.

Quibbles about what counts as "tradition" apart, I agree that the "Last Leaves" text is no help if you're looking for indications that something very like the Ramsay text might have been in continuous oral circulation before and after 1740. (But actually I wonder how the existence of an independent oral tradition of a version similar to Ramsay's could ever be demonstrated, given that we know that his text was readily available as a potential model from 1740 onwards.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 08:25 PM

TY lighter,

I'm going back to the opening stanzas with a quote from "Barbara Allen" in Tradition and in Print- Riley 1957:

There are, besides these texts which are obviously from printed versions, just six texts which begin with the autumn setting. Three of these are from North Carollna (Brown Z, AA, DD), two from Virginia. (Davia G, BB), and one from Georgia (Morris A). These texts show some relationship with other traditional texts which have a spring setting. Three of these (Brown Z, AA, and Davis G) are obviously related texts, Brown Z begins.

It was the fall season of the year
The yellow leaves were falling.
Sweet William he was taken sick
For the love of Barbara Ellen.

The name is "Barbara Allan" in Davis G.

All three texts have Barbara, a reproach, and William's justification is in Davis G and Brown AA. In Davis G the insult occurs in "yonders town," and in Brown A it is "last Tuesday night." Both phrases occur in other texts. The curtain around the bed is retained from Ramsay's or is superimposed. Barbara weeps when she sees the corpse. In Brown Z and AA, Barbara. asks her rather to dig her grave and all end with the rose-brier motif.

Brown DD is deseribed by Hudson as "a full normal text with autumn setting." It has thirteen stanzas and the girl is "Barbara Ellen." The remaining text (Davis BB) has some interesting variations but it is obviously contaminated by Percy's "English" version. It begins:

'Twas late-lie, late-lie in the fall,
'Twas when the leaves were dying,
That Johnny from the back countree
Fall in love with Barbara Allen.

[Richie]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 08:22 PM

Hi Steve,

Conjecture is right, since we don't have a time machine!!! The question is what can be eliminated and what can be kept in order to produce an approximation of the UR-ballad? There's quite a bit to sift through to obtain a few kernels of truth.

I know of the 1855 parody, Barbara Allen, the Cruel. Are there others?
When Barbara laughs upon viewing his corpse- this seems to be the main difference between tradition and parody in Barbara Allen the Cruel. Do you agree?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 08:18 PM

Ur-texts, I think, are more often discussed than they are reconstituted.

And the great difficulty with them is that short of some amazing discovery - as of the actual original text itself - there's no way of verifying your conjectures.

If you have the known ur-text (a holograph of a poem by Burns, for example), it can be interesting to compare it with later versions and, in some cases, published distortions to show what errors have crpt in and how.

On the other hand, it's very difficult to go in the opposite direction.

I think the best one can do is to make an educated guess at the themes and motifs that may have been in the ur-text rather than at its precise words.

I attempted to get close to a plausible ur-text of "Rolling Down to Old Maui" on this thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=33324#3653848

With dubious success.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 05:47 PM

Whilst applauding your very ambitious attempt at comparing all versions I can't help thinking there is very little evidence for most of your observations so far. The various rewritings, additions and omissions will very rarely throw up anything conclusive. Any one of a number of versions could be the original which existed in the same form earlier and has since disappeared. The idea of an earlier ur-text is therefore pure conjecture. However, if you do come up with something even likely it will be very useful.

I don't think you've yet considered the burlesque texts. Some of the forced rhymes in some stanzas smack of burlesque and it's quite possible even some of the earlier texts were burlesques or parodies. Certainly in later centuries songs passed back and forth between burlesque and serious song. William Taylor, Lord Lovel, George Collins, The Drowned Lover etc.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 05:18 PM

Hi,

I'm going to start providing information about the opening stanza(s) of this ballad. Ed Cray in his article "Comment on the Words" further categorizes the ballad by the placename, Barbara's lover's name and also the time of year (May, Martimas etc.). Following are several paragraphs from Cray's article:

Conjecturally, the oldest texts are those which begin: "It fell about a Martinmas time /When the green leaves were a- fallin'." These "Martinmas" versions , more specifically the traditional Scottish variants represented by Child C, may contain a legacy motif where in the dying lover leaves Barbara a series of gifts, including a bowl of his heart's blood. (Child thought the legacy mean stuff and did not print an available text which contained it. No "Martinmas" texts were found among the AAFS recordings available for this study.

Two other variants of the "Martinmas" group are less old: Child A, which in spite of a lively history in print has rarely been collected from oral tradition; and a Forget-me-not Songster text, identifiable by the hero's offer to make Barbara mistress of seven ships This latter variant has entered oral tradition in the United States - a tribute to the popularity of the songster which reportedly had multiple press runs in the 1840's totaling one million copies. The Child A text, from Allan Ramsay's Tea- table Miscellany, seemingly has been most reprinted in those literary collections of "olden ballads", which rarely were distributed among the folk; the Forget-me -not Songster, on the other hand, was aimed at the mass, and therefore the folk, market.

[Cray's article confirms the postulation by Riley 1957 that there are few or no traditional texts based on Child A. Although covering the "Martinmas" there is no mention of additional texts with the "fall" setting.

Richie]


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Subject: Lyr Add: BARB'RY ALLUM
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 15 - 03:49 PM

Hi,

I'm giving this print version from the US from c. 1863. Barry says this is based on tradition. It is short but has the "warning stanza" found in Percy (Child Bd):

Barry D. "Barb'ry Allum. A Pathetic Ballad. As sung by Charley Fox." Charley Fox's Musical Companion, c. 1863.

1 In Scarlet-town where I was born,
There was a fair maid dwelling,
Made every youth say well aware,
And her name was Barb'ry Allum.

2 All in the merry month of May,
When the green buds they were swelling,
Young Jimmy Groves on his death-bed lay,
For love of Barb'ry Allum.

3 He sent his man unto her then,
To the town where she was dwelling;
You must come to my master dear,
If your name is Barb'ry Allum.

4 For death is painted on his face,
And o'er his heart is stealin'.
Yet little better shall he be
For lovely Barb'ra Allum.

5 Hard-hearted creature him to slight,
Who loved me so sincerely:
Oh that I had been more kind to him,
When he was live and near me.

6 When on her death-bed as she lay,
Begged to be buried by him,
And-so repented of the day,
That she did ever deny him.

7 Farewell, she said, ye virgins all,
And shun the fault I fell in;
Henceforth take warning by the fall
Of cruel Barb'ry Allum.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

Rather than wait for answers to the questions posed earlier today, I'll throw out some observations and let you comment on them.

1. Both the English (Child B) and Scotch (Child A) versions are based on a similar earlier unknown traditional ballad (the ur-ballad) which was probably known around the mid 1600s.

2. The changes by Percy of English broadside version (Child Bd) are based on an unknown traditional version and rewrites by Percy. The two important changes that I believe are from another source are the name, "Young Jemmye Grove" and the last stanza:

Farewell she sayd ye vergins all,
And shun the fault I fell in,
Henceforth take warning by the fall
Of cruel Barbara Allen.

3. The rose briar ending has been borrowed from an older ballad: Child 74, Fair Margaret and Sweet William. The reason I believe this is that the lovers name "Sweet William" (or a derivative) has also been borrowed from "Fair Margaret and Sweet William."

4. The motive for Barbara's rejection (found first in Child A) is this stanza from Ramsay 1740:

"0 dinna ye mind, young man," said she
"When ye was in the tavern a drinking,
That ye made the healths gae round and round,
And slighted Barbara Allan?"

5. His typical response to her accusation which may or may not have been added to the UR ballad is:

Oh yes, I remember the other night
When I was in town a-drinking,
I drank a health to the ladies all around
But gave my love to Barbara Allen.

More to come,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 07:59 PM

No explanation of "feud" is afforded by the OED.

"Fault," however, makes sense in the sense of "transgression" (OED).

That suggests the likelihood that the broadside postdates Percy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 07:56 PM

Here's the Chappell quote from "The Ballad Literature and Popular Music of the Olden Time: Volume 2; by W. Chappell 1859

BARBARA ALLEN.

Under this name, the English and Scotch have each a ballad, with their respective tunes. Both ballads are printed in Percy's Reliques of Ancient Poetry, and a comparison will shew that there is no similarity in the music. It has been suggested that for "Scarlet" town, the scene of the ballad, we should read "Carlisle" town. Some of the later printed copies have " Reading" town.

In the Douce Collection there is a different ballad under this title,—a Newcastle edition, without date.

* * * *
So far as the placename is concerned, Robert Bell (Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England, 1857) additionally comments: "In Percy's version of Barbara Allen, that ballad commences 'In Scarlet town,' which, in the common stall copies, is rendered 'In Redding town.' The former is apparently a pun upon the old orthography - REDding."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 07:45 PM

TY Lighter and all,

The last stanza compares somewhat to Percy's last stanza, and maybe the word 'feud' could be misprinted 'fau't' for 'fault'.

16. Farewell, she sayd, ye virgins all,
And shun the fault I fell in:
Henceforth take warning by the fall
Of cruel Barbara Allen.

I'm going to present some observations soon based on the questions I asked. I assume the pun is for "Reading"="Redding," implying the color red which is Scarlet. Didn't Chappell comment on that in detail? Several broadsides begin:

Verse 1

In Reading town, where I was born,
A fair maid there was dwelling,
I picked her out to be my wife,
And her name was Barbara Allen.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 06:41 PM

The White version has 'feu'd'. Curiouser and curiouser!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 04:56 PM

'feud' probably had a wider meaning in the 18thc other than the later more specific falling out between two parties.

Yes 18th century printings are known. In the Madden Collection there is a printing by White of Newcastle that has the 16 sts and Davenport of London printed this same version in the early 19thc. All of these have the same first line 'In Scarlet Town where I was bound'. I still think there is possible milage in 'Scarlet' being a theatrical pun on 'Reading'. That would then suppose there was an earlier version that had 'Reading' as the place, but even if that was the case it doesn't mean anything but the town name was different. There are of course versions with 'Reading' as the place of apprenticeship.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 04:46 PM

maybe it was a feud with her conscience, which is better than a freud with her conscience


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 04:30 PM

Minor point. The database Early English Books Online dates the Brooksby [sic] et al. broadside (Child's Ba) more specifically to "1688-1692."

To this text (with a couple of trivial differences) an otherwise unidentified ca1750 printing adds as final:


As she was lying down to die,
A sad feud she fell in;
She said, I pray take warning by
Hardhearted Barbara Allen.


I can't account for the word "feud."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 03:59 PM

TY Steve,

I can see that the reference 'to the tune of Barbara Allen' might mean that it has it's own melody- rather than meaning 'the melody is already known.'

Any light you can shed on early print versions from the British Isles that differ from Child B (the c. 1690 version)would be appreciated.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 03:45 PM

Good luck with all of this, Richie. I certainly look forward to your final conclusions.

Just one comment for the moment. The fact that a 17thc ballad says 'to the tune of' which is indeed the actual ballad itself. This is quite common and in no way presupposes an earlier ballad of the same name. It could however be referring to an earlier printing of exactly the same ballad. It was just a common quirk of the genre.

The BDBB printing of c1690-96 is indeed the earliest extant printing and I haven't seen it registered in the Stationers Register, but I only have access to Rollins's book. I do believe there is a scarce more comprehensive listing available that might throw something up. Either way it is quite likely that there were earlier printings of the same ballad. Back, Deacon etc did frequently reprint material from earlier copies of the monopolistic printing houses.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 02:58 PM

Hi,

TY Lighter, another similar read is: Moses Platt and the Regeneration of "Barbara Allen" by Charles Clay Doyle and Charles Greg Kelley;
Western Folklore, Vol. 50, No. 2 (Apr., 1991), pp. 151-169.

I'm going to ask some questions and any help would be appreciated:

What is the motive for Barbara Allen slighting her lover as found in the early print versions (texts posted above)?

What is the young man's defense for slighting her? When has this been introduced into the ballad?

What, in your opinion, is the origin of the name William? It is not found in the early print versions?

Could the ur-ballad, which predates the print versions, have blood letting and gifts which are found in many Irish versions?

Is the rose-briar ending original to this ballad or has it been added? If added, from where?

Are Barbara's parents part of the "slighted" motive? Are these stanzas added on or are they part of an early tradition?

Are their any characteristics that determine early versions- and what are they? (time of year, town name, youth's name etc.)

Is the final "warning" stanza introduced by Percy (Child Bd) in 1765 traditional?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 12:48 PM

And don't forget "John Minton's "That Amazing Texas Version of Child 84, `Boberick Allen'. Southern Folklore (1993)50, 1-17.

Seriously.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 12:16 PM

Hi,

Another source may be read online: Bonny Barbara Allen by Joseph W. Hendren in Folk Travelers: Ballads, Tales and Talk. Dallas, Texas. Boatright, Mody Coggin; 1953. UNT Digital Library:

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc38314/m1/53/?q=barbara%20allen

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 08:31 PM

> In all, fifty one Child ballads were still being sung by source singers in Ireland up to the 1980s.

Really remarkable, Jim - at least in the context of earlier, narrower scholarship that observed how rare were Child ballads in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Brown
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 05:41 PM

> Riley did not have Oswald's version either. It is curious that both came out in 1740 which makes it clear that one was taken from the other.

Perhaps not so curious. Edinburgh wasn't such a big place in 1740, and Ramsay and Oswald must have known each other. (Ramsay is generally considered to be the author of an anonymous poem lamenting the loss to Edinburgh musical life when Oswald left for London.)

Like Lighter, I would guess that Oswald's book is most likely music only, and Ramsay's is certainly words only. If Oswald did indeed publish the "Barbara Allan" tune in 1740, around the same time that Ramsay published the words, one explanation would be that the song was already circulating in something like the form that Ramsay published it, and was sung to that tune. But I suppose the possibility that Ramsay wrote the words and Oswald composed a suitable tune, or borrowed an existing tune, isn't excluded.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 04:22 PM

Tom Lenihan's fine tune is, to my ear, closely related to the familiar "In Scarlet Town where I was born" one; and the text also [which, note, lacks 'rose-briar']: with addition of the three-line refrain, in form — last line, followed by two last lines, repeated.
Interesting how it characteristically begins as a first-person narrative, the narrator himself occupying the "Young·Jemmy·Grove/Sir·John·Graeme/Sweet·William" role; but segues into third-person after his death. Beautiful, and fascinating, version indeed.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Barbara Allen
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM

Are there any lists of Irish versions?
Not as far as I know, but as in Britain and the US, it it probably the most popular Anglo Irish Ballad to be found here.
Jean Richie remarked back in the 50s that, if you were looking for traditional songs in ant area, you only had to ask did anybody know Barbara Allen, and the songs came rolling in.
Tom Lenihan's version, with it's particularly fine tune, is to be found here on the Clare County Library website
Carroll Mackenzie Collection
We must have got around half a dozen versions from Travellers - all similar in structure.
In all, fifty one Child ballads were still being sung by source singers in Ireland up to the 1980s
Jim Carroll


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