BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: John P
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:58 PM

. . . the sufficiency of Scripture is an absolutely essential doctrine for a Christian.

I've known hundreds of Christians over the years, and had theological discussions with many of them. Since you are only the fourth person I've ever "talked" to who thinks this, what do you call the other 99.99% who call themselves Christians?

"God exists because the Bible says so and the Bible is correct because it's the word of God" is circular reasoning. The premise and the conclusion depend on each other, leading you in a logical circle. The conclusion never comes out -- round and round it goes, chasing it's tail.

"Everything the Bible says is true" is fallacious reasoning, in that it is both unproven and unprovable. Your interpretations of the Bible are fallacious in that the Bible is extremely self-contradictory, and there is no way to reconcile it to itself if you are going to take it literally. The message of Christ and the God of the Old Testament do not mix, and yet you say that it is all literally true and should be a guide for how to live our lives. Failure to believe in known facts about how our world works is also fallacious reasoning, in that your arguments are based on ignoring huge bodies of knowledge. Your conclusions have nothing to hang their hat on.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Iona
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:01 PM

I promised a post on stoning. I haven't tons of time lately to work on all these posts, and I think we need to get back to the original topic, but the sufficiency of Scripture is an absolutely essential doctrine for a Christian. I don't think that stoning is so off the topic that it can't be discussed; since both it and the Creation Account are in the Bible.

Stoning. As many of you have pointed out, it is a horrible way to die. It is painful, it is ugly. I am not unhuman--I shudder at the thought of it! But I still think it's righteous. And instead of doing a great long post on it, I'm just going to give you a link to an audio that I agree with, and if you take the time to listen to it, gives exactly why I believe in the absolute sufficiency of Scripture.
There is a reason that God instituted such an awful method of capital punishment, and called it good. And this is why.

WHY I BELIVE IN STONING.....CLICKY

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Iona
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:54 PM

I have heard plenty of times that my arguments are 'circular and fallacious', but I have yet for you to explain why you view them so. It's my argument that Without the Bible being true, you can't prove anything at all.   

As to why millions of people do not accept the Bible as true.....
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14)

" Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:23-24)

Iona

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:59 PM

Does it interest you, Iona, to wonder why I...or hundreds of millions more.. do not accept the Bible as literal truth? I assure you, I have no visits from Satan to lead me astray.

We have already gone thru the discussion of why most of 'us' see your arguments as circular and fallacious.... I hardly know what more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Iona
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:51 PM

"But the word of the Lord endureth for ever." 1 Peter 1:25

The Bible doesn't need to be 'updated' because it is true. I know you don't accept that, but there you are!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 04:51 PM

*grin*... The morning papers don't study the situation on a daily basis.

But these days, you can go to CNN or Google news online and updates on important advances in science.

Theology doesn't seem to be updated quite as often.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Iona
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:29 PM

I thought my profile would show the little 'about' that you're supposed to fill in when you submit your membership, but it doesn't.

This is what I wrote:
Artist in sculpture and pencil. Irish and traditional fiddler and classical violinist. Graphic design artist. Fan of the Sons of the Pioneers, (Hugh Farr, Ken Carson and Bob Nolan in particular) the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem; as well as various Western and Irish Folk artists. Collects songs (having over 300 in the repetoir so far and constantly adding more).

Iona

"One said to his minister, "My dear sir, surely you ought to adjust your beliefs to the progress of science." "Yes," said he, "but I have not had time to do it to-day, for I have not yet read the morning papers." " - C.H. Spurgeon

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:07 PM

Always best to do a little research first, Shimrod.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hartnett_(physicist)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:00 PM

starlight,time and the new physics
dr john hartnett

Struggling for any credibility whatsoever the creationist, john hartnett, prefixes his name with a "dr".

Remember, pete, that even if Admiral Prof. Sir John Hartnett PhD., MSc., DSc., MBE, Distinguished Flying Cross and Bar manages to present evidence which completely discredits modern physics and comology(which I seriously doubt - but then I haven't read the book) that still won't 'prove' that God created the universe and/or that the Bible is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:58 AM

dmcg-dont know if the library would stock/acess it as its creation book publishers.
starlight,time and the new physics
dr john hartnett
ISBN:978-0-949906-68-7
2007 September
regards pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:26 AM

This is all getting very tearfully touching as the ever Saintly Don Firth takes the innocent but misguided young 'Iona' under his wing... Better than TV really. Myself, I reckon Iona is WAV in a different guise - though WAV would never advocate stoning people to death for simply being human, much less promote the sort of funless'mentalist claptrap we've seen here.

So what are you Iona? Who are you? Are you real? Or just a virtual vessel of God's verdict for humanity? And what in Our Lady's Name has this got to do with Folk Music?

I'm real, BTW, I even have a public profile on Facebook kindly provided for me by the Chinese Government, but it's pretty accurate all the same:

http://www.facebook.com/comrade.o.piobaireachd

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:11 AM

But preprogrammed all the same

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Iona
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 02:07 AM

Hurrah for Joe Offer, I am now a member--so you all can rest easy that I'm not a computer program. :)

Iona

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:52 AM

*grin* I'm feeling very welcome, thank you. Still waiting for finalization on my membership.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:19 AM

Rock and roll?

Or, strictly speaking, roll and rock. You roll it into position and toss the rock.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:40 PM

her instrument

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:33 PM

I'll bet that he instrument is a trebuchet.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:30 PM

Excellent! Welcome aboard!

I'd be interested in knowing what you do musically. Assuming. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:12 PM

Don--I laughed out loud!
No rocks here. :)

Iona(who, in order to pacify anxious souls, is in the process of getting a membership)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:54 PM

"Does anyone on this forum get tired of themselves?"

Nah. Counterproductive. I'm stuck with me, so I gotta make it work!

No, I'm not worried about Iona being a stalker. She doesn't strike me as the type. Besides,

Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death,

I will fear no evil,

Cuz I'm the meanest son-of-a bitch in the Valley!

But if I see a woman coming toward me with a big bag of rocks, I'm probably going to put on a burst of speed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:28 PM

Does anyone on this forum get tired of themselves? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: saulgoldie
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:25 PM

Iona, don't you ever get tired of yourself?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:22 PM

Brian Greene is a string theorist at Columbia University. On his TV special, "The Elegant Universe" he had a virtual parade of working physicists say there was no way, currently to test string theory. He made a case that convinced me. Until I hear about the Nobel Prize winning experiment to come. I'm convinced.

Elegant Universe is informative and I found it entertaining. See it if you get a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:54 PM

We know who you are... we know where you live....

"She's" crazy and dangerous. I'd get the police on this.

Are you okay, Paul? I only know this about Don because he's disclosed so much about *himself* (i.e. that he lives in the Seattle area, that he sings/sang at such-and-such a place, that he attends the Central Lutheran Church). I'm not stalking him, and I have no clue about where he lives. And really, I don't care. None of my business.

Iona

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:49 PM

Yes, Iona, 'tis I.

The earlier photo (1959) is of Bob and me singing at "The Place Next Door," an up-scale coffeehouse that was next door to the Guild 45th Theater (foreign and art films at the time) and owned by the same man, hence the name.

I am seated for two reasons. First, I play classical guitar as well as using the guitar for song accompaniment, and hold the guitar in the secure classical position (HERE). Second, because, due to polio at an early age, I walked with a pair of aluminum forearm crutches, and if I were to try to play the guitar standing up, I would have to set the crutches aside, and there is a good chance I would land on my keister.

In the second photo (2007), Bob and I have a bit more mileage on the clock. I am now using a wheelchair, and the lower bout of a full-size classic guitar and the right wheel of the chair interfere with each other, throwing the guitar out of position, hence the smaller "Go" travel guitar (looks like the love-child of an unnatural relationship between a guitar and a canoe paddle)—remarkable instrument made by Sam Radding of San Diego:   a bit thin in the bass, perhaps, but in general sounds like a full-size classic guitar. Sam's a genius!

Did you check the link at the bottom of the poster?

Here it is again:   loveiscentral.   This will take you to the web site of Central Lutheran Church, where Bob and I sang in October of 2007. For more information about the NATURE of this particular church and why I am a member, this page HERE should give you an idea.

The congregation of this church consists of a large number of well-educated people, some of whom are in the sciences—and find "Young Earth Creationism" totally unacceptable as truth. Along with many other things the Bible says that can't possibly be literally true. Mythological concepts, yes, but not historical fact.

Yet, most of these people take the teachings of Jesus seriously and put them into practice, whereas the vast majority of those intense people I've run into in my life who have tried to "save my soul" don't practice what they preach!

There are a lot of "Christians" like that. And they give the rest of us a bad name!

Which is why I keep asking you what YOU are doing. And I note that you haven't yet answered.

By the way, I can't think of anyone in Central's congregation who would not be absolutely appalled at your attitudes about stoning.

Also, by the way, I've never been stoned. Not even in the Sixties.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:39 PM

We all need to keep in mind the fact that if string theory is proved to be wrong ... or right ... we will learn nothing about the existence, or non-existence, of God.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:11 PM

Ian..if you are familiar with 'pataphysics, demonstrating that "a metaphorical one could equal a metaphorical two." might be an easy exercise.

(I found that page by searching for the famous quote "God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.")

I also loved the hypothetical question I found on a toilet wall at the Univ. of Kansas years ago... "Can a metaphysican be sued for malpractice?"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:07 PM

Don't forget that string theory is not at all accepted as the basis of physics- it is still only one of several avenues that are being explored. The crunch will come when testable predictions are made- and until they are made it is still metaphysics. Who was it described science as the slaying of beautiful theories by ugly facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:52 PM

Regarding maths. Have you noticed how graffiti on toilet walls in universities always used to include calculations proving that 1 = 2?

Until I wrote my PhD thesis, which although on vibration, did delve into the quantum world, I never realised I would need to prove that a metaphorical one could equal a metaphorical two.

If I had read Pete's bible, I might have stood a chance. My uncle, who was a Jehova's Witness, always used to say the bible supplies all the answers. My Dad used to qualify that by saying all the answers you want...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:43 PM

PS: The only really solid information I have on string theory is Chapter 31 of Roger Penrose's work "The Road to Reality". According to the cover, it was in The Sunday Time's Top Ten Bestseller list. If that's true, its also in the Sunday Times Top Ten 'How on earth do I read this' list. A brilliant work, but not exactly bedtime reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

"they do make predictions and some of those predictions are testable"

No. The fact is that they don't which was my point. Your faith in science is admirable. But on before the big bang and on most of string theory all it offers is speculation

Ok, we'll agree to differ on this one. I don't really know anything about the theories of before the big bang. I know a little more about string theory; I labelled them immature because of the limitations in predictions they can make and at the moment - as far as I am aware - they are limited to predicting the known, i.e. the mathematics predicts this, a 14-dimensional version predicts 'A' and a 19-dimensional predicts B; observation says B happens, so we can rule of the 14-dimensional version. It is a fine point whether that consequence-of-the-model can be labelled as a prediction; I'd consider it one but would understand if you did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

"they do make predictions and some of those predictions are testable"

No. The fact is that they don't which was my point. Your faith in science is admirable. But on before the big bang and on most of string theory all it offers is speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 11:12 AM

*I* discovered that if you mistake a Mormon for a Jehovah's Witness it drives THEM wild. *grin*

I wonder what happens when they knock on each other's door!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:51 AM

I discovered that if you accuse door knocking Jehova's Witnesses or Latter Day Saints of being 'cultists' it drives them wild! "We are not a cult!" one JW shouted at me, on my own doorstep, a couple of years ago. To which I replied, "if the cap fits, wear it." He stormed off in high dudgeon (I've always wanted to write that!).

Please, no cheap jokes based on the word "cult".

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:40 AM

Ummm.. not exactly THAT Dolly Madison, I'm afraid. *grin*.

Etsy is an online crafts site where Iona seems to have a small business.
Her remarks reflect the coincidence that she lives in the same general area as Don Firth. I'm sure she's NOT "dangerous", and that Don has no worries.




"And my views are hardly harsh, much less rhetorical, or yet even narrow;..."

scholars differ....I read your remarks as harsh."Religion is a power struggle of righteous evil vowing for political supremacy through the mechanics of violence and ignorance"

I too, have door knockers...from both Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints, as I live within walking distance of both denominations. I prefer to frustrate them with my explanation of religion in philosophical & logical terms, rather than confronting them as if they are evil.
(I think I must be on "hopeless" lists now, as I haven't seen any in awhile)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:39 AM

We know who you are... we know where you live....

But now she's given her email address she's easy to trace as well.
Here she is.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:08 AM

I rather wonder if you are as harsh in your rhetoric with any religious people you happen to meet in person.....

Only the ones who come banging on my door trying to save my soul, Bill. And my views are hardly harsh, much less rhetorical, or yet even narrow; you can look at the religious impulse in humanity much as you can the propensity for ciminality and war - negative attributes, the fruits & movitation of which don't really bear close examination.

I'm all for Wonder and Spirituality, but you won't find these things in religion - just as you won't find sexuality in pornography. These things (wonder, spirtuality & sexuality) belong to each and every one of us as intergral to our very humanity - they lose all substance when systematised and otherwise exploited, which is precisely what religion does.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:14 AM

We know who you are... we know where you live....

"She's" crazy and dangerous. I'd get the police on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Iona
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:03 AM

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hend/bobnelson.html

Say, Don Firth, you're the seated one, aren't you? It's nice to have a face. Sorry I can't return the favor. :( But now I shall recognize you if I ever bump into you in town. Not likely, but there's always the possibility.........

I shall return,

Iona

DollyMadisonEtsy {at] gmail {dot] com

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: frogprince
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:25 PM

About a year ago, we attended a birthday party for an older family friend. One young man was wearing a tee shirt with a math formula covering the entire front, line after line after line of numbers with every math symbol I've ever seen, maybe some I'd never seen. I asked what it was. The answer: "You'll be seeing a lot of it; it's the (......?) formula, which proves that climate change is totally determined by solar activity, not by human activity". Whatever he said the name of the formula was, I have yet to hear it mentioned again. But it's one impressive looking formula.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:17 PM

So it is as easy to be idiotic in maths...

There are three kinds of idiot - those who are idiotic in Maths and those who are not...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:15 PM

dmcg-the book i read on the subject sure had a lot of mathematical calculations on the back pages but i,ve no idea what they mean-other than that the author is no idiot.pete

Have you a title/reference? No promises, but if its available though the library I'll try and check it out.


As for not being an idiot: mathematics is a language. A very formal one that can express many ideas precisely and is hopeless for others, but a language none the less. So it is as easy to be idiotic in maths as it is in English, French, German, Spanish ...   Maybe even more so, because there are less 'fluent speakers' to pull you up and say 'Are you sure that's what you really meant?'

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:04 PM

nice to have some agreement with jack the sailor!
dmcg-the book i read on the subject sure had a lot of mathematical calculations on the back pages but i,ve no idea what they mean-other than that the author is no idiot.pete

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:03 PM

Theories about before the Big Bang and about many aspects of string theory are on an equal footing with religion in terms of the ability to be tested or "proved."

If you mean they are immature and so they cannot be properly tested yet I agree; on the other hand they do make predictions and some of those predictions are testable, so I don't think those models are on an equal footing with religion. For example, only some dimensionalities are feasible, precisely because the others do not fit with the known facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:15 PM

"...a power struggle of righteous evil vowing for political supremacy through the mechanics of violence and ignorance."

Ummm... kind of a narrow view there, Mr. Astray. We are all aware of such things, but that is NOT how it is viewed and practiced by a large portion of adherents. It is rather like a barrel of apples, some of which are rotten to the core....and some are quite pleasant...*IF* you like apples at all. If you don't like apples, the rotten ones are easy to notices and point at.

I am NOT religious, and I see and hear of absurd, hateful, vicious things done 'in the name of' religion every day. If anyone asks me, I will explain that I do not see the need for metaphysical stories to explain our world or to justify our rules of behavior.
.... but I also see & understand why 'faith' is such a strong magnet for those of various backgrounds & mindsets. I HOPE that, with educations and good examples, the human race gradually loses its dependence on religious systems, but in the meantime I will continue to combat bad logic, bad science and show tolerance for religion and religious people who practice decency and kindness according to the better traditions of their religious beliefs.

I rather wonder if you are as harsh in your rhetoric with any religious people you happen to meet in person.....

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:06 PM

Nothing is proven in science, but an awful lot has been disproven. Like all myths...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:37 PM

Theories about before the Big Bang and about many aspects of string theory are on an equal footing with religion in terms of the ability to be tested or "proved." Because of that there is much controversy among scientists.

It is the egocentric arguments of the Creationist that are suspect. If you ask a close, older relative of mind about creationism that person will say something like. "It MUST be true because I KNOW that I did not come from a monkey."

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:31 PM

Religion is one way of coping and expressing wonder and sharing comforting thoughts about life & death with others...

Wrong. Religion is a power struggle of righteous evil vowing for political supremacy through the mechanics of violence and ignorance. It is the antithesis of wonder and any comfort comes at a very heavy price indeed. Life is too short & precious to waste time on something which promotes lies & misery.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:38 AM

As a matter of fact, creationists CAN 'posit' theories also... the problem comes when they don't do as science does and test those theories in various ways.

Something posited but not examined is merely a belief or slogan.

However...in this case, Pete has referred to the only way 'positing' can be reasonably used in a religious way.
Since it is very difficult to even think about what happened before the "big bang"...or why there was 'something' to GO bang... it doesn't bother me if religious folk want to say "I just choose to think that God gave the universe a push...which some of you call a 'bang'." At that point, I can just shrug. I only get upset when scientific attempts to explain the physical universe and the age of stars & the Earth and human evolution are dismissed. If they want to say that "God planned it this way"...fine... but please don't deny what "this way" actually is!

Religion is one way of coping and expressing wonder and sharing comforting thoughts about life & death with others....and it is easy to see why humans developed religious feelings. It is hard, though, to see why they cling to demonstrably inaccurate ideas about science as we learn more.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:17 AM

And this year's Nobel Prize for Physics goes to (drumroll) ... pete!

For 'positing': "It was God wot done it - it's all in the Bible!"

Brilliant!