American singer, Scottish ballads

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:45 PM

Hmm - well that just confirms my observation - Scots do mix up all those "r" pronunciations. Even after four visits there are still some folks in Ayrshire that I have a hard time understanding - but I'm making progress! Have to say that the more I hear it the more I like it!

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:31 AM

Hmmm ... the elusive "r" in Scots..

I'm from Glasgow, and a long time (and long story) ago I studied phonetics as part of a course I was doing. I've forgotten a lot of it but...

There are actually about 4 distinct sounds used in different areas of Scotland and even within those areas differing sounds may be used (and variations blending from one sound into another).

1) The trilled or rolling "R" that say Matt McGinn uses in the "The Sweet Rrrrollling Hills of The Borrrders"... ( personally think this gets used when singing a lot - I know I tend to do it although I use 2) in my speech more)

2) There's a "flapped" R... this one is tricky -- but if you can try saying "petal" or "pedal" in a sort of Mid-Western US accent... then it approximates to how the word "pearl" is said in many parts of Scotland. My linguistics teacher said that although most Scots speakers would have trouble identifying it as such - they would mostly say that they "roll" their "R's" - this and approximations to it - is about the single most common method of pronouncing the R sound in Scotland. Personally, my version of this is less pronounced, but it's closer to this than the others

3)In addition there's the smooth "English/American" R which is often heard.. don't know whether this is a recent adoption after radio/TV...

4) Lastly some bits of the north-east have a tendency to a back voiced R (I forgot the actual technical name) similar - but not as pronounced as - the FRench/German r sound at the back of the throat.


Ohhh , and we mix them all up...


Hope that helps... hehehe....


Cheers


Steven

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: mg
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:00 AM

the songs are too pretty not to sing so I would just say do what you are comfortable with and try to keep as much of the original as possible and refer people to an original source if you can. mg

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM

I'm Irish by birth but have lived in Scotland for 49 years. At age 12, after 4 years in Glasgow, I had more or less mastered the Scots accent. The pronunciation of "r" however gave me away for a long time. I'd say that the Scots "roll" it: "trill" is also a fair description, eg, the "R-r-r-r-r-r-rolling Hills of the Borders". "loch" is also a tricky one, never say "lock"! OK! Having said that, even some Scots kids are now, under the influence of English tv, saying "Lock" Lomond. Incidentally, I can now roll my r's with the best of them!

As for singing the songs, I'd suggest that you sing any song any way that you want, and the deil tak the hindmost. I love Dylan singing "Arthur McBride", or, "Arthur McBryade", as Bob would have it!

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Abby Sale
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 01:19 PM

I've also sung Scots songs, from similar sources as above, for 45 years. I first learned from MacColl (live and on LP) and then went to Scotland and learned there were better Scots accents!

To me, the accent and meter is essential to the meaning in many songs - both comic and narrative. It helps to carry the meaning. But whether to drift in and out of gae/go or noo/now is far less important. Songs often do that, themselves, (use both forms in different verses) depending of what a regional singer has added. As I "process" songs, I tend to drift in the direction of "ballad Scots" since I was first familiar with that. That works fine in Scotland - everyone can handle ballad Scots but there are hundreds of regional words & phrases that are not genrerally understood.

I'm not really good at accents but I tried hard...I feel I do "well enough" as my Edinburgh friends (and Arthur Argo) generally said I sang with no accent at all. That is, they couldn't hear any particular NuYawkese from me but no particular Scots, either. I took that as a high compliment. (I'd thought I was "ach"ing & "brr"ing all over the place but apparently not...seems I was basically singing BBC Scots.)

For me, the key is to actually understand the song. To gloss it fully before even learning it. I think that will automatically reduce idiotic Mondegreens - both sung and as heard by the audience.

Fact is, I percieve a different problem. It's easier for me to sing a Scottish song (I sing well over 100 of them) to an auditor fully familiar with the genre than to a Florida group. In Florida I constantly have to deal with the problem of the song being understood. I sing 83% for the value of the text (of course, it counts that I'm a poor singer and sing a capella) so if the story or joke fails, my listeners might just as well be hearing a Chinese cat in a wine press.

I have to deal with the old problem of rendering a song from a foreign language into the standard vernacular. Some do this brilliantly - partly because they understand what they're singing, partly because they are fine performers. But I have to decide whether to fully Anglicize, to Anglicize text but retain accent and some obvious words (eg, gae, when in context), to split the difference (like singing a repeated refrain first one way, then the other) or to try to explain the song first.

(Of course, if I'm singing one of those English country amorous songs, I'm inclined to first let on it's bawdy so that won't get lost.)

I don't think there's a "correct" answer to this - depends on the audience, the specific song and the skill of the singer to convey just what s/he intends to convey.

Here's a question: What accent should be used to sing "The American Stranger?"

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM

Okay, here's a very specific question for the Scots on Mudcat. One thing that I've noticed has to do with how the letter "r" is pronounced. Sometimes it's trilled - like the Spanish "r", and sometimes it's pronounced like an American "r". (I hope I'm making myself clear). I've listened very closely and found that the same speaker or singer sometimes pronounces the letter "r" with a "trill" or "burr" and sometimes doesn't. My question - is there any general rule about this? For example, there is a rule in Spanish pronunciation depending on where the letter r is placed in the word - it's always trilled but if it comes at the beginning of a word it's trilled more strongly, as is the case if it's a double r. I know this sounds nitpicking but I've been trying to figure it out. It's probably something that's done so unconsciously that it would be hard to identify a pattern to it, but any ideas?

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Alice
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:26 AM

Sara Grey lived in Montana at one time. She just came through the state on her tour. I think that although she is an American, the fact that she has lived in Scotland for such an extended time gives her the knowledge of how to sing the songs. It is more difficult for an American in the states without the Scots immersion to know what to do with the lyrics. I sing Scottish songs and try my best to not fake an accent while still being true to the lyrics. It is a challenge.

Alice

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 09:21 PM

To sing a Scottish, or any dialectical song, I first learn the song as I have heard it, whether from a person or recording. Next, I find a printed or written text so that I can compare what I think I have heard to the words as written. After haning worked out these complications, I then proceed to master the song so as to be able to perform it honestly and correctly.

Case in point is "The Overgate" as sung by Jeannie Robertson. Despite numerous listenings, I could only interpret one line as:
An' presently we found oorsleves at the fit o" the Beak an" Claws, which I took to be the name of a tavern. But being unsure, I avoided doing this song in a performance.

When I first met Norman Kennedy in 1969, I made enquiries, but he did not know the song. It was only after I acquired the Kennedy compilation that I learbed the correct phrase, "...at the fit o"the Buchan Close."

My advice? Listen carefully, then look at the written text -- Tom

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: sharyn
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:47 PM

I'm going to echo Jeri's question in recent posts, and since I just read the thread on "Bogie's Bonnie Belle," one of my favorite songs, I'll use it as an example.

I learned the first verse as

As I gaed doon tae Huntly toon ane mornin' for to fee
I met Bodheid of Cairnie, wi' him I did agree
To work his twa best horses, to cart and harry and ploo
And do onything in farmwork I very weel could do.

If I sing "without an accent," am I anglicizing "gaed" "doon" "tae" and "ane" in the first line, "wi'" in the second, "twa," "harry" and "ploo" in the third? That's much harder than singing it as I learned it and destroys rhymes in the bargain.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:30 PM

I've been singing Scots songs almost as long as I've been singing folksongs. My first songs were learned from recordings by Ewan MacColl. Then I added to my repertoire from Jeannie Robertson, Arthur Argo, Robin Hall, Jimmie MacGregor, and more than a few field recordings.
The result has been a collation of regionalisms that have confused more than one native Scot. "Those were braw sanhs, but where dae ye come from?"

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 07:02 PM

The opinion (from a Scot) that stuck with me from a discussion in the uk.music.folk newsgroup was that no, put-on accents aren't good but yes, use the Scots words. I haven't quite worked out the general difference between put-on accent and attempted correct pronounciation. For example: 'doon' - is that an accent or simply pronouncing a Scots word correctly? If I sing 'down', I've anglicised it. If I sing 'clachan' and don't sing the Scots 'ch' and pronounce it as a 'k', am I mispronouncing a word or avoiding the fake accent?

I love many Scots songs and I avoid singing them because I haven't figured out how to do them justice and not sound silly trying.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 05:53 PM

I was recently told by a (very fine) Scottish folk singer who lives/works in the US that it American performers ought to sing without the Irish or Scottish accent when singing those Irish or Scottish songs.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

I see to my dismay that whoever added BONNY AT MORN to the DT was under the odd impression that it is a Scottish song; it is nothing of the kind. A lot of people can't tell the difference between Scottish and Northern English dialects when they see them written down, of course. They are closer than many realise. Even so...

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: GUEST,ParaHandy
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 02:36 PM

Sing in whatever accent you want, one thing that annnoys me is people who put the accent on to pretend that the are Scottish/Irish/American or whatever.

There is a band here in Colorado the lead singer of which pretends to be Irish even though he is from the USA. That gars me greet!

Oh, and I am Scots, just happen to live over here....

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: sharyn
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 01:33 PM

Re: Jon's question: is it easier for Americans to sing in Scots? I don't think it is as a rule: I thought maybe I had a slight edge with my literature background because I got used to reading earlier forms of English. I also sang a lot of choral music -- stuff like Benjamin Britten's Ceremony of Carols -- which taught me about permutations of vowels.

I never put on English accents (well, hardly ever -- I wouldn't anglicize "Bonnie at Morn.").

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Judy Cook
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 09:10 AM

Sara Grey is an American (NH I think) who has lived mostly in England & Scotland for the last quarter century. She now lives on the Isle of Skye and tours world-wide. She's on tour in England most of the coming month.
This Sara Grey will get you to her web page.

Be sure to go hear her if you can!

-- Judy Cook

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: GUEST,Pam
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 08:06 AM

Hey Sharyn, as a Scot's lass who's trying to sing bluegrass, please, please keep on singing the auld Scot's sangs. It's important that they're heard, whether it's by Scots or any other foreign national. Before I came to live here, we used to frequent an Indian restaurant in which the owner (Indian, of course)would sing Scots songs. Nobody took offence!

I truly believe that if it wasn't for Americans and Canadians, our old songs would be even more forgotten than they already are.

By the way, try the Complete Songs of Robert Burns series from Linn Records (linnproducts.com). Just pure dead brilliant, so it is. The singers are fabulous and anyone wanting to sing Scots should listen to them because they sing the way Scottish folk music is suppose to be sung - none of your operatics there.

Pam.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 03:34 AM

Edmund---am I right in suggesting that Sara Gray is CANADIAN??
Heard her once live, in Hexham, Northumberland, and fell in love with her rendition of "Isle a Haut". Still one of my favourite songs.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 12:04 AM

I learned my American songs from Alex Campbell which is why you'll hear me singing:

As I rode oot in the streets o' Laredo... etc. etc.

Many of the ballads I love to sing are Scots (as most good Child ballads are, because more collectors in the 18th and 19th centuries looked in Scotland than elsewhere, because... ). I've learned many of them from Ewan MacColl, a Mancunian with a Mancunian/London accent, whose Scots sounds (in comparison with other Scots singers) a tad overdetermined. I've been in a quandary too, Sharyn, about what to do with these songs. My partner Rika often "Englishes" them, but sometimes the rhyme or the metre goes astray when you do that. Yet it's often possible to *tone down* the accent to make the song comprehensible to people not familiar with the (various) Scots tongues.

I think it's (paradoxically) easier for Americans to sing Scots songs than for Brits such as myself to sing them - there's a closer similarity, I think. Yes?

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: sharyn
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 10:08 PM

Thanks, everybody, and keep commenting if you have more to say. I am now paying more attention to what I do. This is what happens: I always learn songs orally either from recordings or from singers I meet. The form of Scots my songs take depends on which singer I've heard. Once I've heard multiple versions I will often sing whatever sings easiest for me. This means I will unconsciously start converting some sounds from Scots to English here and there -- sometimes "tae" becomes "to" -- and sometimes not -- it depends on the phrasing of the song. For example, in "Bonnie Susie Clelland" I sing "wha dearly lo'es me" in the refrains, but I might sing "The father" instead of "The feither." Probably over time the drift is toward American English, but I never change vocabulary and never change things deliberately.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 09:21 PM

I always tell myself I AM Scots, a long ways back- also Irish, and English, and Welsh....... well, we have some songs in our family that have been forgotten in Scotland! So they say.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: CET
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 06:46 PM

I have a sort of mid-Atlantic accent and I also love Scottish songs, so I can sympathize. I'd have to agree with Scabby Doug. I like to anglicize words if that works for the song. Keep the dialect if it's necessary for the essence of the song.

On some songs, I've found that singing in Scots interferes with the performance. It's as if the dialect gets between me and the song. It may be that the effort to be "authentic" tenses me up.

If you have really made the song your own, I think you'll know what works.

If you are looking for an example of an American singer who can do Scots songs beautifully, I would recommend Sara Grey.

Edmund

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 03:59 PM

Ah'll tell ye lassie, if ye want ate sing oor sangs, yer mair nor weelcome fur ma pairt.Them as wrote they sangs wanted a'body tae enjoy them. If ye lo'e the sangs, an' ye spread them roon fur a'body tae enjoy, ye're daeing us a' a favour. Keep the faith.
Ceud mil failte......Giok

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:39 PM

I was at Girvan when maryrrf sang in the comp (Farewell to Whisky - if I remember correctly). It was well-sung, and well-received.

I'd rather people found an approach that works for them... use the language and accent if it means you keep the rhyme, vary it when you don't need it. I sing some bothy songs from the North-East of Scotland, but I don't really attempt to lay on an Aberdeenshire accent. Similarly I sing English songs, and although I might soften some of my own accent in order to preserve the rhymes that may not work as well, I don't sing in an English accent.


Singing American songs, I'm consciously attempting to keep using a Scottish accent these days, for the reason that I *could* probably fake it, but the song's the thing, and I want the meaning of the words to come through. I beleive that I can be more genuine and expressive in my own "clothes" as it were....


anyway suit yersels...



Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:28 PM

Well, a lot of the songs have to be sung in dialect or they don't rhyme - at the very least they lose a lot. I got up the nerve to actually sing a Scots song at a traditional singing competition in Girvan, Scotland - I'm American, by the way! As I was waiting for my turn I was thinking to myself "You must be out of your mind - why didn't you pick a different song - you're going to be singing a Scottish song to Scots and they'll probably laugh you out of the room". But I'd already registered (it was kind of spur of the moment)and put down the song I was going to do. Well, I got up and did it and it was very well received - nobody jeered and the audience was quite appreciative. I didn't win the contest, but I was glad I attempted it. One gentleman did very nicely correct a mistake I'd made in pronunciation but not at all in a critical way - more to help me out. Since then I've been back to Scotland three times and I have to say that I find most Scottish people to be very, very gracious and I don't think, if they felt you were sincere, that they'd criticise you for trying to sing in Scots. After all, it IS almost a distinct language in its own right. As long as you have respect and it comes through, I think you'll be okay.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: MairSea
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:10 PM

I was in a singaround last weekend when someone said that they felt 'guilty' singing Scottish songs with a Scottish singer in the room. I said I would rather hear the songs sung in English than never hear them sung at all so I guess that applies here too. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Susan of DT
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM

I too am an American who loves Scots songs. I sing them in a more or less Scots accent - they don't rhyme if you don't - but I am afraid to sing them in Britain.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:12 AM

Sharyn

I spent several years in Scotland. When I finally got the nerve to sing a well-known Scottish song in one of the pubs I frequented, the locals good-naturedly "took the piss" at my pitiful attempt at Scots pronunciation. The song was, "A Wee Deoch and Doris." There's a line in the song that goes: "If ye can say, 'It's a braw bricht muin licht nicht, well yer a'richt, ye ken." I practiced that line over and over until I had it nailed. Soon, I was singing the "auld Scots sangs" wi' the best o' 'em. People would say, "If ah did'nae ken ye was a Yank, ah'd a' thoucht ye cam frae these pairts." It helped me to learn what some of those unique Scots words mean. When you know what you're singing about, it adds a dimension to your performance.

Here's another phrase I practice: "Come hither tae yer mither, for yer faither disney want ye."

Thomas the Rhymer: D'ye no mean, "muckle" tae yer likin'?

ESSDEEJEE

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: weerover
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 02:24 AM

Sharyn,

Changes which are not conscious are an integral part of the tradition and explain why we now have so many related versions of traditonal songs. Change what you like, keep what you like, just keep on singing.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: sharyn
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 01:35 AM

Those of you who are Scots know that were I to deliberately Americanize or Anglicize words I would be making word changes -- e.g. "if" for "gin." I don't do this, nor do I want to -- part of the beauty of the
ballads lies in their language. I think the changes I make are not conscious, but a wearing away once I've been singing a song for several years.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: weerover
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 01:25 AM

Sharyn,

I am a Scot and frequently sing songs from other countries but retain my own accent. Any song in the tradition is yours if you want it, personally I'm delighted if anyone wants to help keep Scots songs alive by singing them. One thing I would say is to find out as much as you can about the language and ask if there are any words or phrases you're unsure of - this forum is probably as good as any to do so.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 01:04 AM

Sing on, everyone! As a Scot, I'd have been hanged somewhere in the Emerald Isle long ago if singing an Irish song in a pseudo-Irish accent had been a capital offence. Singing the songs of whatever culture can only be looked on as a compliment, as long as the sentiment, lyics and melodies are treated with respect. Which is why I never have passed comment on "parodies" on Mudcat---I have an aversion to them---worse than copyright infringement.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:28 AM

Whatever works.

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 11:57 PM

Nice question Sharyn. I am singing a lot of scottish songs, and it has occurred to me that I might be committing some kind of blasphemy... which I certainly am; when I try to hard to 'sound' authentic... The tunes are beautiful though, and the words are often spelled phonetically, which seems to shape my enunciation a bit. I find that many of the auld Scottish songs are mikkle to my liking! ttr

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: toadfrog
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 11:46 PM

The Scots have their own Bluegrass bands. People from all over Europe go to schools to learn to be country-western singers. Seems to me it's o.k., as long as you get it right. On the other hand, I seem to recall Jeannie Redpath asking Garrison Kielor "Don't ye think ye should master English, before ye tackle Scots?"

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 11:35 PM

I have two minds about about singing in a dialect not my own. I will do so if I am burlesquing something but I will Americanise to great extent lyrics that would mean nothing to my audience as long as the song doesn't suffer.

I listened once to an evening of songs in the Welsh language. Beautiful melodies, beautifully sung by a guy who didn't understand a word of the language he was singing. He'd explain the basics of the song as if he knew the stories but he only was memorizing the liner notes on the record. That was to me the most pretentious thing I ever heard.

Don

Subject: RE: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 09:41 PM

Go for it. There will always be one or two people to carp but don't let it get to you. I've sung American songs all my life because I love them. And I sing a lot of songs on cajun French because I love them too. Not to mention Caribbean songs. I'm not really aware how much of an accent I put on, but as I'm lousy at imitating accents they're probably terrible. probably terrible. But people don't generally walk out, or throw rotten eggs. I went to the USA recently for the first time, and I asked a couple of friends how it would be if sang American songs. They said "go for it" to me, and I did. It was fine. So I pass on the same to you.
   I'm from England, by the way.

Subject: American singer, Scottish ballads
From: sharyn
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 09:29 PM

This is an opinion-soliciting question: I am an American singer who sings a lot of ballads and I am particularly fond of Scottish ballads because of the beauty of their texts and tunes. I have learned songs from Jeannie Robertson, Lizzie Higgins and many "revival singers." I have a good ear and a background in literature. My question, addressed particularly to those across the water, are you offended when non-Scottish people sing in Scots? Does it matter how competently it is done? What I find is that I start off with a good approximation of what I hear but, with time, some Americanization occurs, unless I am listening to a lot of Scottish material.

What do y'all think? (I'm not Southern, but I lived in North Carolina long enough to pick up the usage)