BS: The language of the US changing???

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 03 - 08:48 PM

Legislating language is like waging war in order to keep the peace, or screwing for birt h control. People need language legislated as goldfish need rollerskates.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:12 PM

I think that Canada did not legislate the existence of two languages, it legislated the acceptance of the two that were already dominant. In those parts of the country where there are latge numbers of people speak both languages there seems to be little problem. In places where to speak two languages is considered a burden, yes, it has some problems. However, more than half the people are bilingual and that number is growing.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:52 PM

"I do think it possible to have more than one official language..I believe Canada does"

...possible?..sure, just pass legislation...then watch 'em fight about which one will be be given deference where, and who has to learn them, and whether the Nationa Anthem will be sung in BOTH...and in what order. Yes, people sort of adjust..but not happily, for the most part.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Cluin
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:50 PM

Time to trot out those Esperanto texts again, I guess.

What impresses me most about the way the language is changing, is that there is more of it, while less and less worthwhile is being actually said.... a lot of "like" ans "y'know?" and "nomesain" and yes, the Canadian "eh" (and it's northern relative "uh"). People talking to hear their own voices, while they really don't have much to say.

Always reminds me of an old Alexei Sayle bit, where he prefaced it by stating that there are more and more chat shows and daytime forum programs inundating us all the time, "like more talk is a good thing". He then does a song in which he proceeds to tell everybody to "shut up".
"Margaret Thatcher, shut up!"
"Clive Anderson, shut up!"
"Sting, shut up!"
"Charlton Heston, Martin Sheen, Madonna, Shut the hell up!"...
and so on, finally ending with "Alexei Sayle, SHUT UP!" And the music stops and he walks off stage in silence.

Anyway, it was pretty funny at the time.

Cluin, shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:33 PM

I do think it possible to have more than one official language..I believe Canada does . Also, Bill Bryson would not be my first choice as an historian og language. Anyway, I find this a very interesting discussion. Let's not forget the more that 200 million people in the western hemisphere who speak portugese .

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:56 AM

Bryson's book is also very funny -- I've read it several times, and it still makes me laugh.

Regarding Tia's comment that we will be reduced to a single word - "like." A bit of thread creep, sorry. Greatest cartoon I ever saw in the New Yorker: two guys sitting in a bar, and one says:

"Like, what I don't get is how she like, figured out that I'm, like, having an affair with, like, the babysitter."

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:45 AM

If you want to know more about how the English language has changed and is changing check out Bill Bryson's book The Mother Tongue, English And How She Got That Way. Very good discussion on the history and current status of English.

Example: Forest used to mean any open wild area. Now it means a area covered in trees.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 05:29 AM

Leave it to the news media, and we'll all be communicating in grunts. If we leave it to TV, they'll be short grunts.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: leprechaun
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:01 PM

I suppose it's a side-benefit of the drug trade, that addicts are embracing multi-culturalism.
Those words translate, respectively, as,
a half, a sixteenth, black (heroin), white (cocaine), stinky (meth), marijuana, a piece (25 grams of
heroin) fifteen minutes, very good dope, pretty high, a hundred dollars, fifty dollars, no more
f****** cut, and be careful, there's lots of cops around.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: leprechaun
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:53 PM

I know many people you'd never expect who are learning Spanish, and not in some stuffy University setting either.
They learn words like,

"una media," "diecisiete," "un gramo," "negra," "blanca," "apestoso," "mota," "un pedazo," "quince minutos," "muy bueno jale,"
"bien arriba," "cien dolares," "cincuenta dolares," "no mas pinche corte," and "cuidate, hay muchas placas
aqui."

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:15 PM

You could just answer "Yes". Beats the followup interview if you answer "None of the above".

A

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

How do statistics like that deal with people with ancestors from all over. I mean, could you write "all of the above"?

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

I ran two sentences together when I was making corrections. Not Chinese, but "visible minorities" make up 22 % of the population of the city, of which Chinese are the largest group.

Carol C, I keep all the parts separate in my mind (why, I don't know, since I am a blend of them all), but you can give only one answer to the census takers.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:43 AM

Q, do you put your American Indian ancestry into the Hispanic category?

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:08 PM

These Blacks probably from the Caribbean and Latin America, many Spanish-speaking. Such are census figures- they require study.
I haven't spent enough time with the figures; there are apparent inconsistencies which are reconciled when one goes to other tables.

The news story about Hispanics exceeding blacks is not new; the figures show Hispanics were ahead by about 0.2 % at the time of the 2000 census. I don't know why the media picked it up now.

In my Canadian prairie city (metropolitan 1 million), the largest minority is Chinese, with 22 %. Many Vietnamese, Sikhs, East Indians, and Middle East Christians and Muslims being displaced by continued Israeli and other pressures. Haven't seen the detailed census for the country.

Until this last census, Americans from the States had to be identified by their country of racial origin. I picked Irish, although I am moe or less 1/4 Irish, 1/4 English, and 1/2 Hispanic by actual count. The Hispanic is 1/2 from Spain, 1/4 American Indian, and 1/4 mixed from 16-17th century Spanish settlements in what is now New Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:05 PM

Interesting that in Guest Q's list from Time Almanac only 10% of the US population claims African ancestry, yet 12.3% are black. That means there are 6,486,000 black Americans whose ancestors didn't come from Africa. Where'd they come from?

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:06 PM

What's to worry? As long as they're relatively sane, i'd just as soon be born into a Hispanic family, and in some ways would prefer it. It would beat being a Bush, I can tell you!! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:56 PM

Doesn't worry me...there will ALWAYS be more Irish....

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:47 PM

Does this worry anybody? Sounds like a good thing to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:43 PM

According to the Associated Press in a release on Jan. 22, 2003 and quoted here, Hispanics have now exceeded Blacks as the largest American minority, 13% to 12%. This may be the report that sparked varous conversations about languages.

Also, this article from the Courier-Journal in Louisville addresses some of the problems large school systems face with providing instruction in many languages, 48 different languages in Louisville alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

Forgot to mention source: Time Almanac 2003 (just bought it, have to justify the price. I rounded figures off to 0.5 %.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:22 PM

The number of Hispanics has now passed those classified as black. Some states, Texas (32%), New Mexico (42%) and California (32+%) among them, have more than 30% Spanish speaking people. Most, however, are bilingual.
Basic figures, 2000 census:
Total             282,000,000
Black               35,000,000; 12.3 %
Hispanic            35,000,000 plus; 12.5 %
Asian               10,200,000; 3.5 % (other figures- 12 million, inc. 2+ million Filipino.
American Indian      2,500,000; 1 %

Ancestry:
German      23%
Irish       15.6 %
English    13 %
African    10 %
Italian      6 %
"American"   5 %
Mexican      5 %
French       4 %
Polish       4 %
Am. Indian   3.5 %
Dutch       2.5 %
Scots-Irish 2.3 %

Ja Wohl!

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM

Now Art -- Giok was just kidding, and a wee bit jealous since English is a second language for him. But he's struggling lie a wee hero for a' that, I am sure, eh, Giok ;:>)

Seriously, there is nothing better for a strong culture than to take in various languages, but I concur that offering education in multiple tongues to accomodate those from other countries is a very expensive option. There are specialist places where adults can learn to master English in community colleges, and children can always take a year to get their language skills up, and gawd knows the general education budget in most counties I have seen is pitiful. Surely the money would be better spent on ESL and general fund costs.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:25 PM

Bugger off, Giok

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:03 PM

I thought when I read the title of this thread, that you Americans were learning to speak English.¦¬] *BG*

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:28 PM

TIA: I think we already be there!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:11 PM

any country needs one language that is the central, basic...and yes, possibly 'official' language of commerce and trade. This is generally the language (and dialect) spoken by the major news sources, whether government or private.

This is not an attempt to 'rate' languages as better or worse, or to discrininate. It is just a way to allow citizens to communicate at ANY time. In some countries of the world, political events have created a situation where two or more languages have 'almost' equal standing, and this often causes dissention and provincinal bickering...witness Quebec.

The US, by virtue of being attractive as a destination for the dissidents and underprivileged of the world to better themselves, has an increasing number of people speaking different languages, Spanish being merely the most obvious of these. With Mexico, Puerto Rico, and several Central American countries feeding the immigrant flow, there are a LOT of folks who arrive here speaking 'almost' no English, and the pressures on several states to create almost a dual language system is mounting!

I don't see why it is not obvious that this is not a good long-term solution. Spanish is merely the 'biggest' pressure point right now. In the Washington DC area, there are very significant populations of Asians and other ethnic groups creating many awkward issues, along with many benefits of a diverse culture.

You cannot expect store clerks, doctors, telephone operators, police...etc...to always have someone available who can translate and clarify when language problems interfere with business, health, public safety, courts of law...and just plain living!

It is ok...even desirable...if people want to retain and cherish the language and culture of their ancestors, but the ONLY sane and sensible way to keep peace and communication working is if they seriously apply themselves to becoming proficient in the language and customs of their adopted country also. Yes, this means that the US will 'gradually' change in subtle ways, as it always has as new inputs to our huge country are added, but it is impossible to have sigificant, growing populations of Arabs, Asians (of various backgrounds), Latinos, and Eastern Europeans living here AS almost independant sub-cultures, without inevitable conflicts. We already have many African-Americans who barely interact with 'mainstream' America..(whatever you may conside that to be).

It is simple...people tend to not like and trust those who look, sound and act 'different'...and to expect artifical, patchwork 'programs' to solve this growing problem is foolish. We have enough problems with bias based on US regional accents! (do you doubt me?...there are few forces in the universe as powerful as stereotyping!)

Solution? Easy to describe, VERY hard to implement....a slowdown of immigration, stronger requirements for would be immigrants to know English, mandatory classes for those already here. Money that is going toward BI-lingual programs should be partially diverted to support cultural programs to celebrate and study 'minority' cultures and language groups without encouraging separatism and ghettos.

Do I have any real hope any of this will happen? Nope...politics and pressure are too strong. I fully expect it will just get worse and that we will see more arguments and strife.

Anyone have a better idea?

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM

Here along the border it is extremely common to hear conversations which jump from Spanish to English and back, although English is the official and commercial language in the majority of neighborhoods. I believe the Hispanic population, depending on "how Hispanic" you count, is much higher than 13%, and of course it is around here, and through southern Texas, but I have heard larger figures being used nationwide.

But English has always drawn of Spanish and French for its vocabulary and I don't believe it is going through any more fundamental shifts as a result of demographic shifts than it always has.

What bothers me is the uniform mindless version that has blanketed the nation as a result of large-scale media and commercial interests throwing the change process out of kilter. Traditional language changes grow from experience in small areas and work their way out and up -- terms get adopted tot he degree they are found useful, no matter where they come from, such as 'rodeo', 'calaboose', 'tete-a-tete', or even weltanschaung (whatever!)...

With the advent of mass media, this process reverses and invented cultural icons are handed down from the top, which divorces them from real-world experience and local color, and places them more in the realm of commercial mind-control tokens, a real perversion of context in my NSHO. "Big Mac attacK", "Fries with that?", and scores of other more recent examples are probably available -- linguistic constructs grounded in commercial message, like a position statement from Bush, rather than deriving from human experience. Baaaad news in the long run, you ask me.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: TIA
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM

If current trends continue, English will continue to be the language of the USA, but it will be reduced to a single word...

"like"

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:58 PM

Art: I believe a recent poll showed the hispanic population much higher than you report. I want to say I heard the figure closer to 20% but I wouldn't swear to it. As others have suggested, though, most Spanish speaking people realize when they come to the U. S. that if they want to succeed in this country, they will need to learn English. I doubt we are close to having that language replaced here.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Naemanson
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:52 PM

I was born in the USA in 1952. When I left home I had 4 siblings and none of us spoke Spanish. Now, 30 years later I still have 4 sibling plus 4 inlaws and 6 nieces and nephews. Of those 14 people 5 of them are fluent in Spanish including one of my sibs.

Do I fit the demographic? Is the language in the USA changing?

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:43 AM

And ol' Ben suggested we not allow Jews into the country, either.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:20 AM

A few years back, ol' Ben Franklin suggested that the US adopt German as its official language....

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:51 AM

Well, Spanish seems to be the equivalent here in the US of French in Canada. Almost. It's on a lot of our signs and lables along with the English. And when calling any sort of federal government telephone number, while you're listening to the menu options, they pretty much always give you the option of hearing it in Spanish. So it does seem to have become a sort of second language of the US. I doubt it will ever become the first language though.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:32 AM

I gave up on US chat shows years ago when I realised that they were in a language completely alien to me!

I think artbrooks has answered my question though - The guy on radio was obviously talking out of his £$&*. Dunno if was in English or Spanish though;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:24 AM

Bugsy...LOL...'supman?!

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Bugsy
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:58 AM

Which is mmost probably "knowmsayn??" explains why "knowmsayn?"I don't understand half of what people are saying "knowmsayn?" on US chat shows, "knowmsayn??"


CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:54 AM

I'd vote for the language most spoken in the US as being "Multi-Cultural Slang." In this blend you get a mix of things ranging from jazz hipter/beat to the Americanized version of the speakers first language to the fringes of jive. Makes for some interesting speech patterns.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:33 AM

13% of US citizens are now supposedly Hispanic. This is a long way from 50%. Almost all (US) Hispanics are fully bi-lingual, and there are few, if any, other ethnic groups in the US that can make the same claim. There is a significant number (but I don't know the percentage) that speaks no Spanish, and another group, mostly recent immigrants that either speak little or no English or aren't entirely fluent.

Certainly, knowing Spanish would enable one to communicate with people from Spain and Central and South America...and Mexico, which is in North America. And anyone appreciates it if you can, or try to, speak their own language.

Subject: RE: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM

It's not just the US, languages are changing all over the world (whether the French Academy likes it our not). There are a lot of Spanish-speaking folks in the US, yes, but the second generation (and many of the first) are learning US English. It's a two-way street though, as many Spanish-based words are in US English (lasso, riata, dally, taco, and many others). All living languages change and evolve to meet new conditions.

The language of the airlines and the computer is basically English.

Me, I'd study Chinese if I wanted to speak the language spoken by the greatest number of people....

Subject: BS: The language of the US changing???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:17 AM

Someone on the radio just said that in the not too distant future (10 years-ish) there will be more Spansh than English speakers in the US. Now he was making the point that the UK should align itself more with Europe than the US and that a common language may not be valid soon so I don't know if I believe him. On the other hand I have heard that Spanish would enable you to communicate with more Americans (Including South Americans) than English would.

Anybody any facts and figures to substantiate or refute the claim? Any views?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome