BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 10:11 AM

For example it crops up in this Wikipedia piece...

Right- then it MUST be true! vide the thread on the accuracy of Wickipaedia.


Would 69,000 people buy a car without knowing its cost?

They would, and they do. Every day, all day long.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:28 PM

Yeah, I am in the right thread. The thread where any drop in Bush's approval rating is celebrated like Palestinians celebrating the ill health of Ariel Sharon. And where any rise in Bush's approval ratings is decried like a kid with his candy taken away.

Harry Truman, for those of you that have been around long enough to have a mature grasp on reality, had a popularity rating of 22% during the Korean war. But he was a Democrat and is thus exempt from any comparison to a Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:41 PM

"Maybe yours Peace, but not mine."

My reference was to the commercialism of it, O nameless one.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:34 PM

There is no accounting (no pun intended) for some people's reasoning. In Alaska some years ago Alaskans voted to move the state capital farther north to what at that point was barely a village; the plan was to start literally from the ground up. (Of course, a number of people bought up a lot of land in the area, so a lot of money was involved.)

An immediate petition was formulated and circulated in an effort to get enough valid signatures so that on the ballot of the next election there would be a measure requiring that a comprehensive study of the actual projected cost of building a new capital city be done.

We succeeded in getting it on the ballot. After the study was done and the people discovered what the projected cost would be (billions), they voted against moving the capital.

However, 69000 people voted against the measure that would require that they be informed.

Would 69,000 people buy a car without knowing its cost?

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: CapriUni
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:27 AM

Wesley S: I love that song!

Most of the stories about Diogenes (the legendary founder of the Cynics) are aprocryphal, but it's said that the foundation of his philosophy was: "We are all responsible for our own happiness; it comes from within, not our external circumstances."

In other words: "You can be happy if you've a mind to. All you gotta do is put your mind to it, knuckle down, buckle down. Do it, do it, do it!"

Ironically, this was also the philosophy of the fictional (and much derided) Pollyanna: That there is something to be glad about in everything, but you have to work to find it, and sometimes, you have to work very hard.

Who would have thought Pollyanna was a cynic? ;-)

If the mainstream Christmas traditions don't make you happy, then start your own traditions! Everything except the movie theaters are closed; telemarketers don't call; many people are inside watching t.v. and playing with their new electronics. December 25 can be a day dedicated to whatever it is that brings you joy. So have a merry that.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: ejsant
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:45 AM

Funny thing about reason is that if we can assume that the other 55% of respondents would believe science over the Bible when the Bible contradicts the science I would conclude that 55% of Americans have abandoned reason.

As reasonable or otherwise as I can be…

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:25 AM

Maybe yours Peace, but not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 07:04 PM

To quote Roger Miller - "You can be happy if you've a mind to".

{From the song - "You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd"}

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM

Yeah. No doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:50 PM

If that's how you choose to have your Christmas, Peace, that's your choice. But it's not the only option that is open to you.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:04 PM

I think Christmas has become a bunch of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 02:54 AM

I've dropped most of the commercial trappings but I still decorate with many types of evergreens and put up lights and bake cookies, light the yule log and feast with my family and friends.

Thats my tradition.

and to wish everyone a very MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:29 PM

>>In 1952, Harry Truman saw his job approval rating fall to a mere 22% in the Gallup Poll.

Was he a DEMOCRAT?<<

Sure you're on the right thread, buddy?

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:27 PM

In 1952, Harry Truman saw his job approval rating fall to a mere 22% in the Gallup Poll.

Was he a DEMOCRAT?

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:11 PM

What we see in this latest uproar over Christmas is the pot calling the kettle black. Rightwingers have made their names calling lefties a bunch of trifling PC whiners who make embarrassing assholes of themselves crying about the most trivial crap.

So rejoice, lefties, you finally have excellent ammo to shoot back with.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:05 PM

Yes, that's what it is for most, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 07:12 PM

Bad news, Little Hawk. The money lenders have ALWAYS had the temple. That is the second, or maybe third, most important reason for having temples and hierarchy.

Christmas is the only time of the year when I openly sing songs that might be religious, or, that were religious at one time. I like the myth of the Baby Jesus. I like the trappings that go with the season. It is how I was raised.

But I don't BELIEVE any of it.

Still, it is comfort and joy to touch base once again with the rituals of my youth, the warm homey atmosphere of a traditional holiday. THAT is what Christmas has become for many.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM

>>Can I assume that the nonbelievers among us would go to the office on Christmas Day ? You wouldn't take the day off would you ? Would it make you a hypocrite to skip work on that day ? After all it's just another day - correct ?<<

Right. You can take that day off as well as any other. What's your point? And when nobody else is working that day, it's moot point anyhow. My office will not be open on Christmas--period.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 06:53 PM

>>If you put "We need a national defense system to prevent little green men from Mars from polluting our green cheese during transit from the moon" you'd likely get about a 50/50 vote - UNLESS you've made a specific appeal to a "focus group" of voters who really care ('cause the preacher/mayor told them to in recent cases).<<

Yeah, we saw this in action in 2004 when voters were asked, "Is the asswipe who stole the last election fit to continue as chief executive?"

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:10 PM

Non-believers in what, SD? Everyone believes in something.

Most people will avoid going to the office if they have a good excuse not to. Holidays are very good excuses not to. That's what it amounts to with the majority of people, believe me, including the majority of "Christians".

There are a relatively few people who treat religious holidays with genuine reverence...except in the Muslim world. They're a younger religion. Young religions tend to be more serious about their faith.

Christmas is, for most people, a social tradition, a spending and eating spree, and a holiday off work. Why? Because the $ySStem wants it that way! MONEY talks.

Like I said, everyone believes in something. Scratch the average North American skin deep and you will discover that he/she believes in MONEY. Why? Because money is the chosen tool of survival in this society. If you have it, you eat. If you don't, too bad.

And I don't like that one bit...I wish it wasn't so...but it is so. The moneylenders have taken over the Temple, SD.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 08:15 AM

the old syndrome - it's in print therefore it must carry weight.

sorry if it is reported in a newspaer (or comics as we call most of them in the UK) it needs verifying.

I seem to hear that old chestnut lurking ........... "the other 60% can't do maths either"

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:14 PM

Anyone have a citation for the supposed claim?

Right now, imo, the only polls that might matter is how many Americans are turning away from their lemming-like support of the shrub.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM

Can I assume that the nonbelievers among us would go to the office on Christmas Day ? You wouldn't take the day off would you ? Would it make you a hypocrite to skip work on that day ? After all it's just another day - correct ?

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM

Enough people seem to believe that they can get responsible and representative government by voting for the Democrats or the Republicans. I call THAT abandoning reason! A scientific study of the social and ethical results of the last few decades of American politics would, in my opinion, prove them deeply mistaken...and relying upon a faith that does not hold water.

Most people are unreasonable. Just about what is the question... You get to know them well, and you find that out. They comfort themselves by focusing on the irrationality of others instead of examining their own.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 03:42 PM

Interestingly enough that Lewis Carroll quote about the necessity of believing "six impossible things before breakfast" frequently gets used by scientific writers trying to explain what is involved in getting your head round modern scientific ideas about quantum physics and relativity and so forth.

For example it crops up in this Wikipedia piece about Quantum Mechanics, along with another famous quotation, by Niels Bohr, addressing a young physicist - "Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true."

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM

"I can't believe that!" said Alice.

"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

--Lewis Carroll

(Frankly I was disappointed to learn that it wasn't Mark Twain who made the remark about "six impossible things before breakfast.")

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:13 PM

And the other 55% never displayed any to lose. Boom boom.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:47 PM

After direct experience with a lot of people of faith I'd say that while it is possible to be critical of a lot of aspects of American life, the conclusion that "45% of Americans Abandon Reason" is bogus for several reasons:

Not everyone who believes in "The Bible" believes in it against all evidence.

Not everyone who represents themselves to be "scientific" is a worthy representative.

The fact that people care about the issue is far more important right now than which side of the issue they are in fact on. Caring about the meaning of evolution, creation, and the theory of natural selection is far better than apathy.

Don't forget that in the United States people care very much about faith on both liberal and conservative sides precisely because the government has for the most part stayed out of that part of our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:52 PM

I believe in Angels, Pied Piper. Why? Direct experience. I also believe in science. No problem with science. I'm all for it. I do not regard the Bible as superceding science (or anything else), and if the Bible says something that contradicts science, I would be inclined to think that either the Bible is incorrect or...the passage in question is symbolic or allegorical, not literal in meaning.

Sorry if that screws up your day. ;-)

Actually, it sounds like a really dumb poll question in the first place to me. It's manipulative. It does not ecourage real thought, but only a knee-jerk reaction. (as suggested by several posters just above)

It isn't worth wasting bandwidth on. We all know that religious fanatics (and not just Christian ones) are unrealistic. Big deal. The poll question was crafted to elicite certain responses...kind of like a loaded dice. The people who dream up such polls in the first place are messing with people's heads, in my opinion, and encouraging blind reaction and counter-reaction rather than promoting constructive thought about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: MMario
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:23 PM

poll taking as practiced is nothing more then manipulation of numbers to get the desired results. In my college statistics class as an excercise we were divided into 6 groups and given poll data and a desired conclusion and told to "prove" statistically that the poll supported the result we were given. All groups had different conclusions - and all were able to apply statistics to prove their results - using the exact same data

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:15 PM

new poll!.

Are rhetorical questions ruining poll taking?

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:25 AM

A similar poll taken by the AP-Ipsos people a little while ago showed that it depended upon how the question was phrased. (I don't feel like doing your work for you today, so look it up yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Arne
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:17 AM

For example, if some scientist were to claim that "science says" that some moral precept such as "love your neighbour" is wrong, would it be "abandoning reason" to dismiss the claim?

Then the question would be: "If some scientists made claims of a non-scientific nature contrary to other non-scientific claims made [or purportedly made] by others, which one would you believe?"

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:16 AM

JennyO: Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:01 AM

Oh - I thought this was another thread about George Bush. Probably the same 45%. Explains a lot, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM

"45% of Americans Abandon Reason"

And this merits a thread? Like, it's NOT news.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM

Right John. How exactly did they ask the question? And whom did they ask? I don't personally know anyone (that includes some very religious Christians and Jews) who would choose the accuracy of the Bible over science.

Of course, most of them know the history of the Bible and understand the parts man and politics took in the final form we know today.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:21 AM

It's an axiom of politics that any question will get about half the people on each side. The 45% number actually says they screwed up the survey.

If you put "We need a national defense system to prevent little green men from Mars from polluting our green cheese during transit from the moon" you'd likely get about a 50/50 vote - UNLESS you've made a specific appeal to a "focus group" of voters who really care ('cause the preacher/mayor told them to in recent cases).

The reliability of this 50/50 split is sufficient that most campaigns assume that any interest bloc equal to 15% of those likely to vote will assure a victory. Since only about 60% (recent local votes in my area) of those eligible will be likely to vote, recruiting 4.5% of the population who would not have bothered voting without your crusade, and convincing them that it's "essential," is enough to carry a question. (Half of the 15% x 60& = 9% needed would vote for you anyway, so all you have to do is get them to go.)

Seen it done in several local elections recently.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:00 AM

Myth: God created Humankind from the dust of the ground and breathed life into it.
Fact: 2 submiscropic blobs of jelly conjoin; 9 mos. later the result is out of its mother's body, breathing on its own; within 3 mos. it has doped out the different styles of its chief caretakers and has trained them to cater to its every whim; within a year from its birthdate it's up on its hind legs and has begun mastering the rudiments of the language it was born into. Which is more miraculous?? I know which I'd pick, but then, I've been a party to it more than once. Miracles are miracles, whoever's interpreting....
Tw

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:35 AM

The poll sounds accurate.

I don't think we really expect the public to be rational.
You would be surprise what percentage of Americans believer in angels.
When people are asked if they would want to know if the water they were drinking was poisoned, about half said NO.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:26 AM

A similar per centage was cited recently as believing that the return of Jesus and the lifting up of Christians would "probably" occur in their lifetimes.

I don't think they have abandoned reason; rather, that they never knew it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:39 AM

The last Pope said it. "If science and faith disagree, it is the fault of neither. It is in the interpretation." (I paraphrase)

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: GUEST,A
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:29 AM

Grecko, I don't understad what "separation of religion from state" has to do with the poll results, or the poll itself.

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:24 AM

Kevin, I heard the report too - it referred to "facts" and theories rather than moral precepts (which are not up to science to define). For example, how was the world created, is the theory of relativity valid, how about evolution etc...

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:21 AM

Scary. I would expect that kind of percentage in theocracies like Iran (with the Koran of course). Where is the separation of religion from state?

Subject: RE: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:21 AM

Well that rather depends what is meant by "Science says". Sometimes it can be claimed that "science says" something which is not in fact within the remit of science.

For example, if some scientist were to claim that "science says" that some moral precept such as "love your neighbour" is wrong, would it be "abandoning reason" to dismiss the claim?

Subject: BS: 45% of Americans Abandon Reason
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM

I understand that a poll was held asking the question if Science contradicts the Bible; which would you believe?
45% of the Americans asked, said the Bible.

Staggering.

PP