Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

On the question of the better standard of performance in Ireland, could that partly be due to the seriousness with which music is taken in schools there compared to England? Suppose that ought to be a separate thread really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM

I've been to many clubs and Festivals and there is one thing which is certain, if the artist/performer sings a well known song with a chorus then everyone will join in, but isn't that what the chorus is for? I agree however that some songs are not 'joiny in' ones.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

Singer/guitarists having a "cheat sheet" taped to the top of their guitars have been around for decades!
It's an "Aide Memoire", more likely a "song list", than a set of words to everything they are going to sing!
For Gawd's sake, there's only so much room on the top of of a guitar.
I've always been of the opinion that you can't do a song justice if you have to read it as you sing it.
If you can't commit it to memory...it's not the song for you!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:14 AM

For Gawd's sake, there's only so much room on the top of of a guitar.

I'm getting visions of a strip of paper covered in tiny letters, getting tinier towards the bottom...

"And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and what does that say?
And reflect it from the something so that all men can something else
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I PLEASE TURN OVER... Buggeration..."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:06 AM

Acorn4
"On the question of the better standard of performance in Ireland, could that partly be due to the seriousness with which music is taken in schools there compared to England?"
No-it's because of the fact that the music is taken seriously - period.
Over the last few years the music here has made enormous strides because it has become recognised as a serious performing art. Youngsters are flocking to it, guaranteeing that it will survive for at least another two generations. One of the basic differences has been that there has been a move towards traditional music by the musicians and singers rather than away from it, as seems to be the case in the UK - in other words, you know what you are going to find when you open the tin.
Sorry - I'm really having to take part in this discussion on the move; the West Clare Traditional Singing Festival starts here tonight where I guarantee there won't be a crib-sheet in sight, where the general standard of singing will knock your eye out and where nobody will say "We have enough masters, without adding more." It's called 'having pride in what you do'
I'll be back sucker.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:40 AM

Richard Bridge - sorry I didn't mean to imply that joining in the chorus, or even the last lines of songs where it has become a tradition to do so, is a problem. Quite the opposite - there can be a real pleasure in being part of that experience.

I was thinking more of those times where a singer has put a lot of thought into how they wish to express a song ( where each word and phrase is important and subtle differences in timings can be crucial) and other people hum or sing along without that appreciation of the care that has been taken.   We are lucky enough to have some very accomplished singers of traditional ballads in our area and I find, as an audience member, I can be thoroughly absorbed by their interpretations ... but not when I am hearing the tune hummed slightly out of sync from somewhere else in the room.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: matt milton
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

More often than not, folk audiences are a fairly sensitive bunch to when to sing and when not to. If someone is doing a free-floating, atmospheric, taking-liberties-with-the-meter rendition of a song that lends itself to that sort of thing (eg She moves through the fair) then it's unlikely anyone's going to try to join in.

Whereas with catchy chorus songs, you'd have to be a performer with a Van Morrisonean ego to think it was spoiling anything. (And it would also rather beg the question why any such performer would be choosing to play such rousing, inviting music in the first place...)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:39 AM

Joining in on a non-chorus song when not invited to ought to be declared a capital offense - and as for popping the cheek with the finger..........
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

Then the ring from out of a small muslin bag which she had in the pocket of her apron she instantly drew...

That ought to do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

"I completely disagree Barbara. IMHO it is participative music and if someone really wants others not to participate then it is up to them to make that wholly clear and even then to consider if they are being self aggrandising in that request."
How can singing Lord Gregory possibly be described as participatory?
And what do you do about the eejits who invariably 'know a better version and are going to join in with that one come what may.
Walter Pardon was forced to abandon two of his favourite songs because of clowns like this.
How about LET THE PEOPLE SING - their own song, without interference.
A bit like borrowing Turner's paintbrush to fill in the bit he missed, don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

There was a lady, and I use the term loosly, used to visit Swinton club on a regular bais. Known locally as 'Black Margaret', I would guess for her hair colour but it could have been her character for all I know:-) She used to insist on joining in with everything - even if she didn't know it! Funniest was when Stanley Accrigton was singing one of his very recent songs - probably penned in the last 4 hours - and she happily joined in all the words, about one beat behind him. It was very un-nerving. Stan coped remarkably well but always asks if she still comes to the club:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

If you would care to read what I said, you will see that those who do not want anyone else to spoil their rendition can explicitly say "Please do NOT join in or hum along".

All they need then to consider is whether that is conceited or whether there is a different explanation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

Richard,
They shouldn't have to; some people may not welcome humming, stamping feet or clapping hands but are far to polite to mention it (like Walter Pardon was).
I was always taught to wait until I was asked.
Must take my tin whistle along to to the next Dolores Keane concert - she sings participatory folksongs doesn't she (sort of)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

I would agree, Jim. (Is that twice in one week? What's the world coming to:-) )

Richard - surely the very people who sing quiet and introspective songs are generaly quiet and intropective by nature. It may be OK to tell a loud and uncouth bugger like me to ask people to keep quite but surely you wouldn't expect someone who just wants to sing gentle songs, who already may be a little nervous, to lay down the law before they sing would you?

I think it sometimes rude to join in uninvited. Even more so when you get people drowning out the singer of the song.

The other side is established people who want to do their own arrangement of a popular song - My mate Phil Atkinson is normaly a loud plank basher, in the nicest possible way of course, but his version of 'The Holy Ground' defies anyone to yell 'Fine Girl You Are'. I have a copy if anyone would like it btw:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: HappyHag
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Richard Bridge - no, I have never sung a spider song, unless you mean 'I know an old lady who swallowed a fly' which I used to sing to my children. Sorry, ot.
Julia, Eastbourne

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Richard Bridge.
I did a gig at a folk club in london,I did a version of a traditional song,somebody in the audience decided to join in,but they were using different chords to me.
no it wasnt ok,its good manners to ask[IAM NOT TALKING ABOUT JOINING IN CHORUSES]but deciding to accompany someone who doesnt need any accompaniment,or already has their own perfectly good accompaniment.
I dont know if it is a full moon,but you dont seem to take it in to your cranium ,that I have never[as an organiser] not allowed a floor singer to sing,but I repeat, an organiser has that right if they wish to do so,they are organising/financing the club.,whether I wish to exercise that right is a different matter[I never did ].

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

You just had to get 666 didn't ya!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

Would 11 o' clock on the 11th of this month be a good time to wrap up this thread?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:04 PM

11/11/1918 would have been a good time to wrap up this thread ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

And a good time to stop un-named guests from making supercilious comments? (sorry - couldn't reist!)

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:32 AM

Isn't it bad manners for somebody to try to stop discussions which they might have lost interest in but obviously others haven't (often referred to as the "mummy, I'm bored" syndrome)?
I'm delighted that this thread has continued (in spite of minor hiccups) as long as it has - it shows people care about their clubs.
Having a wonderful time - wish you were all here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

We're still here Jim, to some of us you are pushing an already open door, to the others you may as well be talking to the door!

Go for it....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

I think there is plenty more to be discussed here. I am particularly interested to here Jim Carroll's response to my post of 06 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM

I agree with both Jim and Bryan - we do care and there is plenty more to be discussed if people wish. But Bryan, perhaps if you word it differently you might get a response - there were only statements in that post! :-)

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

My post was in response to Jim's in which he said -

If your policy is as stated in the first part of this sentence - by being prepared to put on a singer who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember the words and are incapable of communicating the song to an audience, yes, you are promoting bad singing - explain how you are not.

and his follow up at 06 Nov 08 - 03:42 AM .

I was answering his question and I wonder what his resposne is.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

If I may be so bold, Bryan, as to address one of your points. Not on Jims behalf but on my own -

I'm sure those clubs must exist, but shop around a bit I think you would be pleasntly surprised.

The statement above started with 'that is the nub of the problem' and I agree entirely. We are possibly trying to compare apples and oranges. You are a very lucky person indeed not to have come across a, how shall we put it, 'non-improver'. Neither me nor Jim have said, I don't think, that the quality is generaly bad. All we are saying is that we have come across these 'non-improvers' (Decided I like the term:-) ) and the whole point is what shall we do with them.

The feeling is that if we continue to put them on during popular guest nights then there is a chance that they could put some people off. And have indeed done so in Jims example! So, the choices are, in my view -

1. Do nothing. Accept that they may never get better. Limit the 'damage', as I try to do.
2. Do something more positive, as you do, and offer them a chance to improve at workshops. Not sure what will happen if you ever come across someone that doesn't improve but that's hypothetical anyway!
3. Ignore it altogther.

I am sure there must be more and I would consider other alternatives openly if people can point me in the right direction.

Boils down to the questions you and Jim keep asking again. From you - How many bad performers have you come across and in what time frame? I would add and what did you do about it? And from Jim - Is it right to put someone who is realy bad in the spotlight week after week?

I think that's what it comes down to anyway and those are the questions I believe we should be getting answers for so we can make an informed decision about how we (the royal we - club organisers) go about the issue at our clubs.

I welcome any response and advice.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

I think I'll just wait for Jim's reply if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Not at all, Bryan. Does anyone else want to add to the options or answer the questions?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:43 AM

BTW - Forgot to ask. I have in my possesion a CD of '25 years at the White Lion'. Gives a good indication of the quality of some of our regulars. If anyone wants a sample PM me and I will happy to send an MP3 version. If you like it and want to send a couple of quid the producers of the CD would be very grateful.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

One of my pet hates is uninvited 'joiners-in'. Fairly recently I embarked on a ballad at a singaround and soon realised that the bloke next to me was singing along with me quite loudly! I had to stop and remind this person that my performance was not a duet! On another occasion, whilst I was singing from a stage, someone in the audience joined in in a completely different key ...

In my opinion ballad interpretation is a very personal thing and joining in is very bad manners.

People who insist on dictating the rhythm and pace of a singer's performance during refrains and choruses are also, imo, displaying crass rudeness.

Personally, I blame all those 'folk choirs' of the 60s and 70s who made people believe that 'dirgey' bellowing and harmonising are 'de rigeur' and must be indulged in at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:07 PM

I take your point, Shimrod, especially about sitting next to the human echo box, but am forced to disclose that dirgey bellowing (a brilliant album title, if I ever heard one) is one of my favourite things about folk music...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

DeG - I would add a further "solution"

4. Apply psychological pressure. This is worth a thread on its own :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

I'll try it on you on Monday, John. When you see all those people in the 'front row' hanging on your every word I'm sure you won't get nervous:-D

Hehehehe.

David el evil Gnomo

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:38 AM

Bryan,
Sorry for the delay for responding in full - we gave our Traveller talk yesterday and the singing week-end finishes today so I'll try to do so in this evening - alchohol intake permitting.
One of the topics under discussion here was raised at last night's excellent concert - that of joining in uninvited. The perp was a very fine Scots singer who really has been on the scene long enough to know better, and was - eventually - glowered into desisting by her immediate neighbours. It is extremely bad manners - and, in my opinion - extremely arrogant.
One of the most heartening aspects of the week-end was the age spread, particularly the handful of excellent younger singers who turned up.
Part of the procedure was a singing class - these are becoming a regular feature over here - I have to say I have mixed feelings about the form these take - maybe a thread on teaching sometime? (this is beginning to sound like Alasdair Cook's 'Letter From Munster').
Now - "SONG - MUSIC - DRINK; as Father Jack has been heard to remark.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

I might have differed on the very fine singer in those circs, and have found the joining in acceptable (although man or woman should "know their limitations") - but in a singaround or song-session or session I thinnk it is for those who do not want others to join in to make that very clear, and to consider whether they are the ones being conceited or arrogant. If doing a song or tune in an unusual way in a singaround or session I think it is also good manners for the "leader" to make it clear in advance that would-be participants need to listen and follow.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM

Richard, I agree that folk music is participatory. That does not mean that it is right, or acceptable, to join in with everything, no matter how good a singer you may be. It is about showing respect for the singer, and the song.

Even in a singaround or session, each singer takes his turn and in my opinion it is up to them to say whether the others should join in, not the other way around. Even then, in most cases when someone says "here's one you can join in with" it should usually be taken as an invitation to join in the chorus, not the whole bloody song.

There may be exceptions in some clubs and singarounds, where it may be the custom, but even then one should show some sensitivity towards songs, or singers, for whom it is clearly inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM

Our singing tradition is, with very few exceptions, a solo one (wassails, sea shanties and such like excluded).
Time and again I have seen peoples' efforts naused up by insensitive egotists who want to show that they know the songs as well as the singer.
Why should singers have to ask that people should not join in - it should go without saying and it is arrogant to assume otherwise.
Please tell me what Walter Pardon should have done when people joined in with his singing (he was part of a sing-around in his market town of North Walsham for years); should the onus have been on him stop people making a free-for-all of his songs?
The best example of an audience on an ego-trip was one night at a London club - not that long ago, when the singer embarked on Scarborough Fair. He had chosen (in his stupidity I suppose) to use the beautiful minorised Kidson tune - the audience couldn't make up their mind - half of them joined in (verse and chorus) with the well-known MacColl/Littlewood version collected from Mark Anderson while the other half launched into the Simon and Garfunkel adaptation - result, an absolute cacophony   
It is not even a question of joining in on the songs, a certain amount of sensitivity is required on choruses.
Walter got extremely upset when some audiences decided to both harmonise and slow down choruses making them clever-clever dirges.
Unless you wish to reduce folk-singing to community singing before kick-off the individual singer - not the audience, must call the shots - he/she has to be the interpreter - the audience is there to listen and to help out if invited.
I think I'm beginning to see why the club scene is in such a mess if this is representative of current thinking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

Jim.the same goes for musicians ,something that you have practised hard on, can be completely ruined by other musicians joining in.Wrong Chords,instrument out of tune with yours etc.It is equally more difficult if the artist is well known, an asset to any club,never puts a foot wrong when performing,but is absolutely hopeless when trying to play along.Even a tune that I may have just written,with no idea of any key changes etc he will play along.This is a very relaxed sing around
(after writing on here I need to relax)I have no wish to stir up any trouble, but it certainly puts me off performing unless I play for everyone to join in.Sometimes however it is nice to try something new on an audience.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:13 AM

Thanks Alan - that's exactly the display of bad manners I was referring to.
Has anybody come across another menace we have witnessed on a number of occasions (not in clubs, but in music sessions - though, taking Richard's argument to its logical conclusion, there's no reason why it shouldn't happen anywhere)?
In many of our local music sessions the musicians will often have a 'song break' where they invite singers up. On at least half a dozen occasions we have come across musicians who will attempt to accompany singers, uninvited of course, (time to do what was done to Paul Newman in the Hustler maybe!!!).
Uninvited joiners-in, harmonisers, would-be-accompanists, etc, as far as I'm concerned, should be made as welcome at a folk club as mobile phones or display flatulists.
I won't even start about wandering bodhran, banjo, piano-accordeon, twelve-string kalashnikov, spoons, bottle-and-coin, or anything that comes to hand players who invite themselves into sessions in order to drown the other musicians out.
Back later, now the visitors have gone home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:46 AM

We had one singer singing a song about a bird singing in a tree.At this point a person in the sing around started playing a bird warbler.Although the singer was clearly getting upset he persisted with it.With two verses still to go the singer picked up his drink and through it over the Warbler.He missed and drenched the poor chap by his side.That singer has not been seen again or his wife who is a joy to listen to.Thinking about it the poor chap that got soaked has not been seen since.
The other thing Jim ,similar to what your saying, is that singers will sing the chorus of the version they know which may not be your version. Another problem is that during your song some anticipate your ending and do a long closing note. This is very off putting particularly if you have a number of verses to go.Instead of shutting up they continue to try and close the song.I love people singing along with me, but I wish they would just listen to what I am doing.
Alan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:20 AM

Jim - Maybe the singers are being allowed into the session to provide practice for the musicians in song accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:36 AM

I tend to agree with you, Jim,However there have been a few occassions when someone spontaneously sings a harmony that is really good.
on the occassion,when I was guesting at a london folk club,and another concertina player, joined in playing a different chord progression,I was flabbergasted.
on the other hand I have no problem,with the club where the organiser makes bird /sheep calls,I am prepared for it,and try either not to include songs that feature birds/ sheep,or to turn it to my advantage as a performer by making a joke out of it,sometimes it pays to be easy going,and not lose the head.
organisers choose which guests to book,but guests are under no obligation to play any club ,that they dont fancy.
I can understand the guy pouring beer over someones head,but in the cool light of day it wasnt the best solution.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

"it wasnt the best solution. "
Probably not - perhaps he should have poured liquid manure.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

(back at work now) (no computer at home). I'm relieved to see people agreeing with me that persistant and innappropriate joining in counts as bad manners ( wasn't sure if it was just me!). Most contributors agreeing with this (BB, Jim Carroll etc) are feeling the annoyance from the performer's point of view, which I can see must be tremendously off-putting - I guess people sometimes feel it has been a pointless excercise to work hard at interpreting and presenting a song (or tune) if other people are just going to ignore their efforts and sing their own version anyway.

But can I also emphasise that it is really annoying when you are a (mere) member of the audience. I can sometimes be trying to follow a song and find myself clamping my teeth with restrained anger if all I'm getting is a tune hummed, or words whispered with no reference to the singer's choice of timing, sense of story etc. Trouble is - what can you say? If I complain I have no way of knowing whether I am in a minority of one, with everyone else present enjoying the layers of sound. I risk making enemies of friends and turning a personal irritation into a bad atmosphere for all.

Just to be clear - I'm not talking about choruses, or even occasions where the club convention is to contribute to certain places in certain songs, but only what, for want of a better covering term, one may call ballads - songs that are much better listened to than sung along with.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Firstly, hello group - I'm a new member. I possibly should have introduced myself previously, but hey ho.

As a newbie to folk, this thread has been quite intriguing. Myself and friend shall be attending an evening singaround in the next few days. It shall in fact be my first, though I hope not my last!

Over the last few weeks I have set to heart a small handfull of songs to sing solo and unacompannied. I hope to sing one or two of these on the night, courage prevailing.

I can remember them perfectly well while singing alone or indeed whilst among friends, but I do fully intend to take along a few discreet well-eared, coffee-stained and bath-crinkled sheets of paper, 'justincase'.

As a beginner, of course I wish to do my best and as such, I have made an effort to fully memorise the songs I have learned thus far.

But I think if I were expected to attempt to sing without even being able to have any kind of security blanket to hand, the anxiety of knowing I didn't have the notes with me to glance at, would probably be enought to ensure I hit a blank, feel consequently very horrid, and quite possibly never want to try again!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

May I make a suggestion Rosie?

How about putting just one main word from each line, nice and large, on a piece of paper, then dropping it discretely to the floor or onto a nearby table?

you'll probably only need one key word if you do dry up, and knowing that the prompt is there if you need it will probably mean you won't need it!

And if you do, a quick glance is unlikely to spoil your flow. But you wont have a paper screen between you and the audience.

Just a thought.

Tom

...who is relieved to be given permission not to join in! I always feel everyone assumes I'll know every song ever written, and as guest am expected to help to lead the throng-thringing. Luckily I learned the Patent Garbutt Chorus Gargle at the great man's own knee, so can carry off a silent, note perfect rendition upon first hearing - complete with simultaneous counter-tenor and basso profundo 'hummonies.'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Throwing beer, you're better off without him. Sounds like a prat.

If you're going to be that thin skinned and volatile - you're not really safe out on your own.

Its sounds to sense you get the odd song buggered up in some way by the audience. The guy sounds like total moron. Mostly its someone who just gets it wrong - thinks he knows the song better than you, thinks he's god's gift to humour, thinks he knows a brilliant accompaniment.

Nick Fenwick - the Geordie used to have a battery of amusing insults for hecklers and act violators. When you're pro - you learn to deal with these situations as well as you can - without unpleasantness. if you're visiting somewhere strange you have to be careful - you might be traumatising the local care in the community basketcase.

either way, throwers of beer are the villains of the piece.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Dear Sleepy Rosie,

I hope that your debut goes well (or should I have said "break a leg"?).

I'm sure you'll do fine and that if you do make the odd mistake everyone will be extremely tolerant. You're obviously putting a lot of work into your singing - keep it up - singing in public really does get easier with practice (practice, practice, practice).

Why not set yourself a target of dispensing with the notes after a few sessions? And then go on to slightly more difficult songs and/or tunes etc. Also try and record and listen to yourself.

Finally, learn how to take criticism (the constructive kind, of course). Workshops, providing that they're well run, are an excellent way of improving your singing, but you need to approach them in the right frame of mind - open and receptive to new ideas but not 'thin-skinned' and defensive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:46 AM

Arrghhhh! PLEEEEAAAASE no more using this 'myself' when you mean 'me' or 'I'

This is not a dig at genetically poor spellers or mangled grammar, but this 'creep' of usage - it's getting everywhere. I had a memo from my manager last month asking 'send your answers back to myself ASAP' how ludicrous is that?

I am going with a friend, or a friend and I, not, for the love of God, Myself and a friend are going. My eyes are watering ! Resist this gruesome expression!Please!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:02 PM

Is yourself you getting yourself's undergarments in a kerfuffle over thisself, Jimslass? Eh but?