BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems (UK)

Subject: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:59 AM

So, the unthinking, idiot tribalists of the UK have succeeded in destroying the Lib Dems. Now there's nothing to stand between us and a full-blown Tory government for the next generation (after 13 years of power we now know that Labour can't do government - only opposition). The point was, surely, that the Lib Dems, who are in a MINORITY in the Coalition, have acted as a bit of a buffer between us and the rabid Tories ... now the buffer has been badly damaged.

Not only that but the brainwashed twits have succeeded in throwing out AV - which, although not ideal, might have given us some alternatives.

Only the Scots have broken the mould by dumping Labour (a fate that the doctrinaire, autocratic and completely hypocritical apologists for unregulated capitalism richly deserve!). But they've elected f*cking nationalists in their place (!) - they'll live to regret that - out of the frying pan etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:10 AM

You know what's happened? The Tory's plan succeeded. That wonderful Lib Dem shaped shield has been super effective.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:17 AM

The fuckwits, sorry Lib/Dems have never acted as a buffer, they do what Dave tells them period. Nick Clegg seems to be the only person in the world who can't see where the blame lays for their disasterous showing in the polls.

He sold his soul and morals for five years of power [ he thinks ] He even shafted the people in his own constituency and now he seems surprised at the good kicking he's been given, blaming government policys but never himself, the man is either a liar or a fool.

Where are you from Shimrod ? that you can call the vast majority of the British electorate ' brainwashed twits ' I voted in favour of AV but I accept the will of the people, is it a case of " I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong " you are sounding more like Maggie Thatcher all the time.





Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:26 AM

Am I the only person who votes in LOCAL elections on who I want to run things LOCALLY.
It should not be anything about the party leaders or Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:39 AM

I agree, Dave H. I am constantly astounded how those who call themselves democrats can make such a to-do when the δεμσϛ makes a decision distasteful to their own almighty doctrinaire egalitarianism. Shimrod, & such, should be ashamed of perpetually expressing such patronising, condescending, knowall, we·know·best attitudes to the indubitable and undeniable will of the majority.

I have, btw, always been amused by the constant desperate repetition of the myth of our having a "3-party system". There haven't been more than 2 since the 30s. The Libs/LibDems have been nowhere near government since. The fortune all those poor buggers must have lost in deposits! & at last, when it finally looked as if they might be in a position for some sort of "power-sharing" or "holding the balance", look what happens!

And Labour have demonstrated repeatedly that they are rubbish in government tho can make an effective, excess-controlling, opposition. Which just leaves what the populace have time & again come to their senses to recognise as our natural government.

All IMO of course. But I think my rundown of past events will hold...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:39 AM

I reckon the vote was convincing enough. The majority of those who bothered to vote voted to keep first past the post.

That doesn't make the majority of voters tribalistic idiots , it makes the moaners undemocratic. It is ok to not be happy with the outcome, but in a democracy you accept it, however reluctantly. Voting is not just about before the event, but by voting, you are part of a voting system and take group ownership of the outcome.

Clegg called AV a miserable little compromise till he had to compromise himself. Surely he can see the irony?

No, perhaps not.

One thing I do agree with Shimrod about is that Labour are not fit to govern just yet, and seem to be better in opposition than in power. (Mind you, up till a year ago, Vince Cable was the voice of reason and common sense........)

But this propped up Tory government relies on neither of the coalition partners trusting Labour to get us out of the economic situation we are in. I firmly believe that it can be helped by a strong economy every bit as much as austerity measures, even more so.

But you know what bugs me more than anything?   That ANY party, once the books are balanced will squander it by spending to bribe voters and put us back under the cosh.

AV, FPTP, any system you like, makes no difference. Ministers like to bribe us in the last budget before an election. That is why they are going too far too fast. They don't want to balance the books, they are just looking as ever to the next election.

Vote how you want, I guarantee you will get the government.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:39 AM

A silver lining may be that if the Lib-Dems vanish completely the "left of centre" (convenient shorthand) will not be split at the next election whereas the right wing one with luck will have the EDL BNP and UKIP competing for the conservative core vote.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:55 AM

I voted for my local counciller and it had nothing to do with their party. I voted for somebody who lived in the same location as me and who I felt would do their utmost for the good of our community.

I also voted YES for AV. I am not upset at all, that the majority voted not to have AV. That is democracy.

The problem appears, that if you are a staunch party supporter of Labour or Conservatives, you are blinded by their doctrine and refuse to see any good in anybody outside your own party. I call that blinkered stupidity. But never the less, that's always been the case and I doubt will ever change.

You only have to see the hatred posted on these political threads on Mudcat. It's always the same.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:58 AM

It is the right of the "unthinking, idiot tribalists of the UK", to vote for whichever party they wish, for whatever reasons they have. It is up to the parties to win there hearts and minds.

One of the problems with the electoral system is the constant misinformation, and sometimes even downright lies continually puimped out through and by the media which have an influence on voting decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:54 AM

I think Richard is too optimistic there. The modern Labour Party lines up with the others he mentioned as being s basically rightwing organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:09 AM

But, McGrath, that is because it has been demonstrated over & over again that the way for Labour to be sure of losing any election is to go to the country with left-wing policies. From 1951 onwards, the people of the UK have demonstrated time & again that they don't like socialism in any form: they don't like it, they don't trust it, they don't want it. Isn't it time that those thus inclined recognised the fact and stopped bellyaching about it in this undemocratic fashion? By all means, let them continue their campaigning and their attempts at re-educating the populace to their way of thinking. But can't they have the humility and decency to stop denouncing those that don't agree with them as misguided fools?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Yvonne
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:40 AM

The Liberal party decided to 'sup with the Devil'.
So the results in the local elections were well deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:00 AM

The problem with the combination of FPTP and the two-party system is that you can't vote for your real preference, you have to opt for the less worse of two package deals. However the winning party will then claim a mandate for the whole package, warts and all.

Looking back though, it has long seemed to me that whenever we had a change of government either way, then invariably:
    - the incoming party had to spend the first two years or so fixing the other lot's mistakes,
    - the next couple of years were spent introducing their own common-sense reforms, generally welcomed,
    - after that, policy tended to become increasingly driven by party dogma, until eventually the electorate were pushed too far and voted them out again.

So there is some sort of long-term balance, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:17 AM

You could straighten things out soon enough if you had the sense to give yer apes and monkeys the vote.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:26 AM

I agree with virtually everything that Arthur Itis says above (except that I AM upset that we didn't get AV!).

Democracy would be a fine system if we had some real choice and a few more people were able to think things through (which they plainly can't).

And for all of you who wanted to 'damage' Nick Clegg - shouldn't you have been directing most of your fire against David Cameron?

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:33 AM

What's so good about a democracy? It's a meaningless word banded about by politicians like 'freedom' or 'choice' (Thatcher's favourite). How can you have a democracy in a monarchy or a FPTP system: the government is chosen by the floating voters in the marginals only, nobody else counts. Of course the majority voted for FPTP: people don't like real change and don't vote for it. Arthur would you have accepted it if a referendum voted for capital punishment (which it would following the rantings of the Sun, Mail etc)? Cromwell and Ireton had the right idea in using Pride's Purge to cleanse the House of Commons of those who endlessly tried to negotiate with the King. They whinged about democracy then but the Army was probably more democratic than the House of Commons.
The trouble is there's now too many overgrown schoolboys in the House of Commons. It's easy to be a Saviour for a day when you just talk about it as Nick Clegg discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:00 PM

Bankers, don't forget the bankers - they f*cked up the economy. They are still running things and they remain rich and powerful and if they care about parties at all we all know who they support.

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:12 PM

"Democracy would be a fine system if we had some real choice and a few more people were able to think things through (which they plainly can't)" -- Shimrod
===
See what I mean? What a conceited, patronising conclusion. Why can't Shimrod "think through" the obvious fact that what he wants is not what most people want. How dare he go on from there to conclude that this is because they can't "think things through" as clearly as His Monumental Intellectship can?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
"Arthur would you have accepted it if a referendum voted for capital punishment (which it would following the rantings of the Sun, Mail etc)?" Doc John
===
Another example of the 'progressive' at work. WHY precisely should he consider himself entitled to denounce expressions of views contrary to his own as "rantings", in tones which suggest we should all regard this description as self-evident?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Oh, what's the use?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:27 PM

MtheGM
Yes I would have accepted capital punishment, if the referendum voted for it.

Whatever anybody thinks, we are all still very lucky that we are not like Libya or Syria or other countries like that.

You should all be very thankful for that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:30 PM

But come on - would you really vote for a lisping fool??

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:30 PM

Before anybody goes any further with the thought of if LibDem were wiped off the "left of centre" map, Labour may have more strength come elections....

Don't forget. When Thatcher was asked what her greatest achievement was, she said without hesitation, "New Labour."

Tell you what, despite being a Labour voter come what may in my earlier years, once I started seeing the world a bit more, running a business and then running public sector bodies, I (like to think) I have become more pragmatic. Hence I became a floating voter.

It's nice to be part of the 7% of voters that actually make and break Governments. Perhaps that's why I have more faith in democracy than some of our friends here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:35 PM

Arthur-itis ~~ It was not me who was asking you the question you have just answered: it was Doc John; I was merely quoting it as an example of a misguided question.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:37 PM

I didn't know you lisped, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:40 PM

You know very well I'm referring to the fool leader of the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:44 PM

I too have followed Ian Mather's voter-career-path. An illustration, perhaps, of Aristide Briand's famous dictum that "The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."

NB ~~ I do not put this forward as in incontrovertible truth [not being a 'progressive'] but as a possible point for consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:53 PM

So, we mock the leader of the opposition for having a speach problem? And then we expect to have related views taken seriously?

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:58 PM

Sorry MtheGM :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:03 PM

"But they've elected f*cking nationalists in their place (!) - they'll live to regret that - out of the frying pan etc."

If we're in the frying pan (which I'd dispute anyway)then we've been in it for a while. Labour lost power in Scotland 4 years ago not this week.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:44 PM

"What a conceited, patronising conclusion. Why can't Shimrod "think through" the obvious fact that what he wants is not what most people want. How dare he go on from there to conclude that this is because they can't "think things through" as clearly as His Monumental Intellectship can?"

I seem to remember that it was the SF and song-writer John Brunner who first noted that vast numbers of the population appear to be unable to think things through. I've known far to many people, in my lifetime, who have been prone to elevating the airy notions which float into their heads into incontrovertible 'facts' and I've worked with, and for, far too many of them! If noting that such a phenomenon exists, and agreeing with Brunner, makes me arrogant then sue me!

Although I suspect that you might sing a different tume, MtheGM, if your 'darling' Tories weren't in power!

You've also neglected to notice that many of the voters, who claim to be 'on the Left' voted in order to 'punish' Nick Clegg. I maintain that this is a silly, puerile approach to politics. The destruction of the Lib Dems means that we are more likely to get a full-blown, undiluted Tory government now (which will no doubt please you). If such people really are of the Left their key priority should have been to oppose David Cameron and the Tories (who hold the majority of the seats in Parliament) - not the leader of the Lib Dems.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:08 PM

I was Best Man at the [alas] late John Brunner's wedding, shared a flat with him in the 50s, and was married from there at Hampstead Register Office in 1959: you will gather he was one of my dearest-ever friends; so don't try to tell me about him, please, Shimrod.

The Tories are not my darlings ~ look at my last post about being the absolute Floater: have voted for several different parties in my time {Lab, Con, Referendum, Lib [for the person, when Clement Freud {another friend} was my MP in Isle of Ely]···

I agree with you about the 'punish' attitude being a puerile approach to politics: but suspect it is spread across the whole spectrum: and endeavour to remember that its perpetrators have exactly the same number of votes that I have and are equally entitled to cast them as they wish ~~ an attitide I should commend to your attention & recollection for the benefit, if nought else, of your blood pressure.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:30 PM

"Left wing policies" don't come into it. The Labour Party at present is some way to the right of the centre. But our institutionalised political structure, frozen into stasis by the electoral system, makes it effectively impossible for a party with moderate left-centrist policies to get a fair crack of teh whip.

Outside Scotland, where a party with just those qualoties has just won a majority in the Scottish GEneral Election.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:41 PM

Would you really, Arthur, want people who read the Sun and the Mail deciding the future of the country? This is what would happen if there were frequent referenda; we'd soon have hangings, floggings, rat infested prisons, chain gangs...the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:22 PM

Er... excuse me, Doc John, but I read the Mail. What do you feel that says about me?

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:16 PM

@Eliza, it means you probably have cancer. Have they marked paper as giving you cancer yet?

I jest. Slightly.

Here's what I expect to happen. If the SNP manage to get Scotland independent (which will be amusing to watch), Labour could be in REAL trouble. If that happens, Labour voters might become Lib Dems.

As Mo said "Am I the only person who votes in LOCAL elections on who I want to run things LOCALLY. It should not be anything about the party leaders or Westminster."

Yes. This, this, and more this. That's what pissed me off about the referendum. It became "Piss off Clegg or Cameron".

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:18 PM

Glad the S.N.P. did so well - Scottish nationalism also being the best hope for English republicans/nationalists, frankly; plus I've really enjoyed visiting there - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#66

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:40 PM

"if there were frequent referenda; we'd soon have hangings, floggings, rat infested prisons, chain gangs...the lot."
,,,
A bit of an exaggeration I suspect, Doc J; but I take your point. But I think we could benefit from a system whereby issues on which the public has strong views {on receipt of a petition with 10k signatures, say} should obligatorily be put to referendum; and, if carried, would have to be presented to Parliament for decision, with a free vote guaranteed. Something on those lines, anyhow; which would surely not lead to the dire consequences you rubricate above, but would allow those who at present feel entirely disenfranchised because their views on such matters as appropriate penalties for crime are never going to be taken into consideration in any circumstances. They are not necessarily all fools or villains who feel that a society in which multi-murderers are executed and violent criminals flogged is to be preferred to one in which such offenders receive penalties entirely inadequate as expressions of societal revulsion from the gravity of their offences.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:02 PM

Without labouring the point too much, the public has just ruled out the mechanism that would have enabled them to express such a view.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:41 PM

"The Labour Party at present is some way to the right of the centre."

Too true! But speak to any Labour Party supporter and you get the impression that Kier Hardy and Aneurin Bevan are still at the helm and for that person to even THINK about voting for any other party would be absolute sacrilege!

And MtheGM - John Brunner was one of the revered writers of my youth and I would not deliberately misquote him. I think that he made the remark about people not thinking things through in an interview in a SF magazine - but it might take me a while to find it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:23 PM

Shimrod: Glad to hear that my dear friend John was so much an object of your reverence. The point I meant to make before, however, was not merely to name-drop: I meant to add point, but somehow {Freudianly?!} missed this bit out, that altho we were obviously the closest of friends with much mutual regard, he & I did not see eye-to-eye on all (or even many) political/sociological points; so I would not necessarily accept any dictum of his, any more than of yours, as unquestionably authoritative on such matters as those we are engaging with here.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:33 PM

Let me make it clear in addition, Shimrod, that, altho there undoubtedly are people, in the nature of things, who do fail to 'think things thru', it is your implied assumption that these comprise all those who do not happen to see things the way you do which I find so rebarbative.
Can you deny that this is the implication of your "Democracy would be a fine system if we had some real choice and a few more people were able to think things through (which they plainly can't)'? Otherwise, why 'plainly' can't they, eh?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:48 PM

---'I seem to remember that it was the SF and song-writer John Brunner who *first* noted that vast numbers of the population appear to be unable to think things through'---

As to "first" in this suggestion, Shim: I suspect you do old John too much honour. I should rather be inclined to attribute the aperçu to Socrates, myself!

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: DougR
Date: 08 May 11 - 01:18 AM

Guest Shimrod: have you ever condsidered the possibility that the Lib Dems did theirselves in?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:23 AM

"The Lib Dems are heroes of the Labour Movement. They could not support Labour to form a government - the numbers didn't add up. The allowed themselves to be taken hostage by the Tories to give Labour time to elect new leader and sort out it's policies. They silently encourage the Tories to become more and more extreme.

When Labour are well ahead in the polls the Fibs will pull the plug and cause an election, they will be wiped out and Labour will go on to win"

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:32 AM

Aristide Briand's famous dictum that "The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."

A witty dctum, yes. But I am more inclined to accept your own comment about how to behave: WHY precisely should he consider himself entitled to denounce expressions of views contrary to his own as "rantings">

Plenty of people declare that those who come to an opposite view to their own are idiots, or heartless. But I think Briand may be the the best known person who says that anyone who didn't follow his exact path is both heartless and idiotic, even if not necessarily at the same time.

There are plenty of people who are tories or labour throughout the whole lives, but who genuinely think about their stance. There are examples of people brought up in a labour household who become tories by conviction, and more than a few who go the other way, with perhaps the best known example of recent times being Tony Benn. It simply does not do to lump people into a handful of categories: we are more complex than that.

Ok, back to the main thread. I doubt that come the next election the LibDem vote will reach much above 10% as a proportion of the vote in most constituencies. Whatever I imagine happening over the next four years seems to end up with either the LDs being indistiguishable from the Tories - in which case what is the point of not voting Tory - or them taking the rap for most of the problems along the way. The implications of that is unclear but more likely a strengthening of Labour against the Conservatives. Even without the whole coalition kerfuffle, whoever administered the 'nasty medicine' that the cuts are likely to be would probably suffer. (Everyone admits their dentist is necessary but few actually like them for it!) So the Conservatives would have found it more difficult to get a second term by the nature of things. Having a sidekick to take most of the hatred certainly helps the Tory chances next time, but the fact the supporters will probably vote for their opponents doesn't. So, all in all, I see the LibDems fading but as to what happens to everyone else - it's too dependent on the next few years to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:48 AM

It is an unfortunate side effect of democracy that the views of the stupid or unprincipled receive the same weight as those of others. Given the alternatives I'll usually settle for democracy, but none of that is any reason why stupidity and lies should not be called stupidity and lies, those who swallow the lies should not be called fools and those who promulgate the lies be called liars.

It should be remembered however that at least two major reforms of UK law - the abolition of the death penalty and the partial derestriction of homosexual activity by the Sexual Offences Act - were passed by Parliament when a referendum would not have passed them. Sometimes leaders have to lead.

In the present case if the deserved destruction of the Lib-Dems puts all less rightward leaning votes into the Labour party that will eventually reduce the need for AV to give a true reflection of voting intentions - but it will still mean that there is a barrier to plurality in political representation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:16 AM

<"Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Les in Chorlton - PM
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:23 AM

"The Lib Dems are heroes of the Labour Movement. They could not support Labour to form a government - the numbers didn't add up. The allowed themselves to be taken hostage by the Tories to give Labour time to elect new leader ......">

Hi Les

As recently as Thursday night (Lord) Paddy Ashdowne said on Any Questions that he blamed the "whole mess" on the Labour Party for not joining with the Libdems when he personally invited them to as the election results became clear that one party would not have a clear majority.

So we have Clegg blaming maggie Thatcher and Ashdowne blaming labour.....seems to me that they are a little bemused and shell-shocked at the moment.

Cheers

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: Darowyn
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:38 AM

I stood as a Lib Dem candidate in the local elections- unsucessfully as you might expect. In fact it was sitting members who were re-elected- mostly Independents round here as it happens. That is the way it goes with local issues.
But if you think that this week's results mean that the party is wiped out then you have it very wrong.
Lib Dems are at their best on local issues and in direct contact with the electorate.
I am now living in an area where there is no party branch, no organisation and only two Lib Dem activists in the town, yet still gained a vote that did not come near a humiliating defeat.
Underlying Liberal Democratic philosophy is a generosity of spirit (liberality) and a genuine respect for democracy.
A reflex desire to punish an unpopular government coalition is a passing fancy. The wheel will turn. There is time to organise locally and to rebuild morale.
Down is a good place to start if you intend to go up.
Stop pointing fingers and playing the blame game. If you believe in Liberalism and Democracy, do something about it!
Or is that just less fun than squabbilng on the internet?
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:55 AM

Good to hear from you, Dave. And I'm glad to hear you were prepared to stand up and try even in the face of the nay-sayers. That's important. And I agree that historically the LibDems have been at their best on local issues, which is why, again historically, they proved themselves to through the councils in most cases before being successful in National Government.

But it doesn't chance the fact that people will be asking 'What is the purpose of the LibDems' at the next election, and you will need a more solid answer than 'they stand for a spirit of liberty'. In fact, as you will be aware, in the foundation of the party the term 'liberal' was more closely related to 'free trade and deregulation' than 'civil liberty'. And what are we to make of 'a genuine respect for democracy' when the democratic message you have just got appears to be that you were not wanted (for now, at least)?

I am not anti-Liberal, by the way. It is simply that there are some hard questions coming up and they need to be answered, not dodged.

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:19 AM

--- two major reforms of UK law - the abolition of the death penalty and the partial derestriction of homosexual activity by the Sexual Offences Act. ---

You write as if all must accept it as a demonstrable fact that these were 'reforms', Richard. I am expressing no opinion as to that when I beg you to remember what "begging the question" means.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The Destruction of the Lib Dems
From: kendall
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:27 AM

I've been watching the local news and I still don't know what AV is. Would someone please explain?