BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA

Subject: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:46 PM

Well, road rage took a strang twist yesterday on the Washington, D.C. Parkway when an *angry young man* in a BMW shot out the rear window of a Mercedes almost killing its driver. Arrested, David Michael Keene, 21, son of David A, Keene who sits on the Board of Directors of the National Rifle Association.

Hmmmmmm?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:49 PM

...this makes me miss Little John. He would start a thread in the winter about guns and animals...but Bobert this is not a good topic, especially at Christmas. You made a mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:05 PM

Harpgirl:

Heck, it's only December 5th. Not the 20th. We're not even into the "Twelve days of Christmas" yet. I didn't choose the timing of this event. The shooter did! I think that any discussion that can bring about a better understanding of issues that Jesus would indeed be concerned about if He were walking among us in the Flesh, is a noble issue.

I am a pro-human Follower of Christ and concerned about an atmospheme of violence that has been furthered by the NRA. I'm sorry if you are offended. I'm sure that the guy who happened to almost get killed yesterday by a gun nut kid was a tad offended also.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

...goodluck, sweety! I've learned my lesson on this topic! Everyone knows what I think anyway!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:17 PM

I have less than nothing good to say about the NRA, except that they supposedly do give good gun safety classes, but this is WAY out in left field. The father was also probably a member of the Republican party, a believing Christian, a former Boy Scout, and a member of the Lions Club. So what? The link has about the same level of validity as pointing out that a violent person is a veteran or black, and thus painting all veterans or ethnic minorities with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:27 PM

A nut is a nut is a nut

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Genie
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:44 PM

While I disagree with the NRA on many issues, I'm reluctant to blame an entire organization/movement for the irresponsible actions of a few of its members/backers. That knife cuts both ways, you know. An evironmentalist who had worked to stop old growth cutting in (I think) the Opal Creek forest area of Oregon has just pled guilty to torching several logging trucks, and another guy who has been visible as a spokesperson for some environmental organizations is believed to have been involved, too. (While they may have intended only to destroy property, actions like that pose dangers to people, too.)

The NRA is no more reponsible for nuts in its membership than are anti-war or environmental organizations, unless the organizations advocate those irresponsible actions.

Happy holidays,

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:57 PM

Bobert, You need to get a life buddy. this forum is fantasy, fun, and music. You spend wayyyy too much time here, get out have a coffee and talk to humans in the park.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:06 PM

Forty-plus years back I was all in favor of the NRA. Now, well...I support their safety programs. I did support their support of the shooting sports in the Olympics, but that's been moved to another organization.

Too much politics and too much uninformed hot air on both sides for my taste. I don't like "They'll take my guns when they pull them from my cold, dead hands" any more than I like the blanket statements of the other side. Mostly, I don't like the uninformed, inflammatory reporting of gun incidents, such as this one is.

The "young man" has reached "the long-awaited one-and-twenty" and is "free to hang...at last. As an independent adult, what's the point of identifying him as the son of an NRA Board member? The son did it, not the father. And I'd feel the same way if the person was identified as a veteran, an African-American, an Irish-American, or whatever -- this reinforces stereotyping.

The issue is that an adult shot out the window of a car, endangering others by his actions. Arrest him, convict him if guilty, and punish him according to law.

And yes, I own firearms -- I've said so elsewhere. And no, I'm not a member of the NRA (the NMLRA, yes, but not the NRA).

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:32 PM

I gotta agree with the majority here, Bobert. I strongly disagree with the casual disregard of general safety and the armed-to-the-teeth culture that the NRA advocates (although many individual members do not -- I used to be one of 'em), but I don't think it's fair to pin this one on the NRA. Maybe Dad will learn a lesson about fostering an attitude the guns are the solution... but I doubt it.

Of course, if junior had been brought up in a household of Mennonites, I doubt that he'd be shooting out windows from the driver's seat of his luxury car.

But he's an adult and presumably capable of reaching his own decisions, so the blame should sit squarely on his shoulders.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:34 PM

Excuse me... I guess that I have trodden into an area that is out of bounds fir Catfolk who don't have stripes on their sleves ot Cat-brass on their shoulders....

Ahhhh, to make a point that one kid, who has grown up around a man who has most likely preached right wing venon all his life, and decides that he has the right to try to kill someone because the guy happens to be in front of him in traffic, that this is out of bounds because of Christmas, Rhamadon or Rama-doma-ding-dong, is NUTS!

Yeah, as many of you Catfolk that want to jump on me, feel free. Have at it! You're no better than the kid! Think pro-human! Yeah, you think I'm pompous? You ought to bury yourselves in the New Testament.

All I try to do is bring pro-humanity to this forum. Check my posts and you will see that over the last year that I have been consistant in preachin' positive and pro-human ideals.

Yeah, if you want to line up on party lines, do it! But the point I have made here tonight is a valid point! Kids with redneck fathers generally turn into rednecks!

When we look at ways that we can bring mankind a little further down the road toward being civilized, even if it means takin' on the Big Boys, like the NRA, then it is our responsibility to do so. To do less is corrupt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:40 PM

Bobert, Bobert mah mannnnnn---


Maybe we should all do a little deep breathing for a sec, buddy.

You virtues are well known, and not in question.

It is possible you made an extrapolation based on the association with the NRA, and maybe the kid was unduly influenced by his Dad, but ya know what?? He might have been strictly taught proper gunhandling by his Dad and forgotten it all on a bad trip on angel dust, for all I know.

Anyway, I appreciate the point you are making, and ya dinna need to take it personal if the issue of NRA etc. has a number of sides and proponents and rancor associated with it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:13 PM

Thanks, Amos. As a former NRA memebr of good standin', I do have my issues with the organization that during memebership evolved from gun safety to gun ownership.

With that stated, it is *my opinion* that the folks left in the NRA are the redneck "gun ownership* folks who couldn't care less about *gun safety*. They have fought every attempt to get guns out of the hands of nutballs and violent people. Hmmmmmmm?

So I don't think that it is all that a monsterous step to surmise, that given the NRA is now nothin' more than *gun ownership* extremists that a kid of one of their board members might think its his God given right to not only carry a pistol in his car but also use it if he just happened to be *pissed off* by a guy in front of him that may (or may not) have had Gore sticker on the back of his car.

But what bothers me more tonight is the lining up of old Catters to take shots at me fir making these points. Yeah, talk about a Catbox "crucifixtion"?!?!?!?!?....

Wow. In a year of preachin' pro-human positions this ol' hillbuilly ain't been so universally attacked and, hey, it does seem to have a partisan feel about it.

So no one wants to go on record of saying the the NRA has methodically cornered and drowned folks who don't happen to like what they preach anymore. Tough!

If I stay around this joint, I will *NOT* knuckle under to the right winged members or those who, in the word os Rodney King, just want"to get along". These afre not times for getting along. We have a president who's lawyers stole democracy. We have big money ruling our government. We have so much anti-human policies that Jesus would be absolutely ashamed of what we have become.

That's been my story since I found this joint and it will be my story until they bury my poor ol' Wes Goinny butt...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:40 PM

Don't take it quite so personally, dear. There aren't any pro-gun folks in here taking punches at you. I just think in this case, it's a bit of a stretch to lay this one at the NRA's feet in blame.

I DO hope they convict this guy of a felony though. We'll see about prying his gun from his irresponsible hands at that point. "Road Rage" my butt -- it makes it sound like a mental disease instead of what it is -- attempted murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:49 PM

Hmmm... I suppose if we really wanted to, we could find out how many Rapists were connected to the ACLU or Arsonists with greenpeace... this could go on well into the New Year - but I hope you don't mind if I don't waste a lot of my time on it.

One observation I've made here (and I don't usually poke around in BS threads any more) is that when I first got onto MC about 3 years ago, anyone who wanted to rip into the NRA, ANY Republican, or any even remotely "Conservative" ideaology anywhere they wanted to - and "music" threads were as fair game as any - got nothing but acollades and applause. Any of us few-and-far-between dissidents who objected to or tried to counter any of this PC dominant diatribe were promptly given the old flame-thrower treatment on no uncertain terms! I remember plenty of times walking away from the 'puter with smouldering shorts!

At least now it seems that there is a lot more openness and common sense in these discussions - some of you who are certainly no fans of the NRA are nonetheless willing to point out an obvious attempt to stereotype an entire organization as well as it's membership.

Now if I want to discuss music, chances are pretty good that on a regular music related thread, that's what we are going to do, and not be sidetracked or hijacked by someone with a political agenda to grind.

I really appreciate that!

Oh; by the way, Mr. bobert; you say that you are "Pro-Human"; that's cool. Are you "Pro-Choice" as well?

As to the NRA; Our former hero of American Socialism, Herr Willheim J. Klinton, begrudgingly stated after his puppet Algore failed to steal... errr.. "win" the election, that the NRA probably cost them the White House.
Since the NRA had succeeded in turning a lot of Union Member votes away from their traditional affinity to the Democrat Party to Bush, he was probably right.

And that in itself earned the NRA my dues for many a year to come!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:02 PM

I grew up in a rifle-owning household with NRA sympathies. Not to bring back the endless debate - but I thought this study's conclusion was interesting.

"The study findings imply "that guns, on balance, lethally imperil rather than protect Americans," lead study author Dr. Matthew Miller of Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts, told Reuters Health.


"This inference is consistent with previous...studies that have found that the presence of a gun in the home is a risk factor for homicide, and starkly at odds with the unsubstantiated, yet often adduced, notion that guns are a public good," he added.


Miller and his team investigated the association between homicide and rates of household firearm ownership using 1988-1997 data collected from the nine US census regions and the 50 states.


They found that household gun ownership was linked to homicide rates throughout the nine census regions. At the state level, the link between rates of gun ownership and murder existed for all homicide victims older than age 5, according to the report in the December issue of the American Journal of Public Health.


In fact, the six states with the highest rates of gun ownership--Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Wyoming, West Virginia and Arkansas--had more than 21,000 homicides, nearly three times as many as the four states with the lowest rates of gun ownership--Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and New Jersey.


Further, people who lived in one of the six "high gun states" were nearly three times as likely to die from any homicide and more than four times as likely to die from gun-related homicide than those who lived in "low gun states," the report indicates. Their risk of dying in a non-gun-related homicide was also nearly double that of those who lived in states with the lowest rates of gun ownership. " Reuters December 5, 2002

Bobert, I tend to agree with those who object to tieing the young hoodlum to his father's beliefs- we have no way of knowing the man's history. On the other hand I agree that the tie is significant- if a young man is caught dealing coke and it is discovered that he has an Amish father, yeah, that is newsworthy. Just so.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:23 PM

Thanks Ebbie, I'll take what I can at this point. No one, other than me, seems to look at the possibility/probabliltiy that livin' with a probable/possible right winged gun nut just *might* influence his young son's values. Hey, I don't think it's a stretch!

I live in a very backward area of West Virginia and I see the kids who act just like their fathers. If you were to poll 'em all, I reckon the kids would echo their father's opinions right around 99%.

Now, take a kid who comes from a family in which the father is a major player ina "political action committee" and I reckon that 99% figure goes up closer to 100%.

Like Nicold said, had it been a son of a Mennonite family, this probably wouldn't have occured...

I'm gonna rest my case here....

If the Catdom wants a gun in everyone's hand then we'll just have to take it from there...

Good Night,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:21 AM

Ebbie, thanks for posting the results of those studies. Having lived in Wyoming a lot of years, I am not surprised it was one of the top six. It seems anytime someone wants to get rid of someone they either take them hunting and have an "accident" or they just shoot them in the "heat of the moment." The worst case I remember was the 6th grader who got upset and worried about what his parents would say about is less than straight A grades, so he used his dad's hunting rifle to kill himself after school. And, a lot of the kids in Wyoming are NRA safety trained.

Bobert, I agree there is a strong correlation, usually, between the way a kid is raised and what actions they may take. I just didn't feel like getting into one more gun debate. IMO, by no means is the Mudcat full of people who want us all to have guns, I think a lot of us just got burned out on the debate.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:41 AM

Ebbie, while I won't dispute the good Doctors work without a good deal of statistical study on my part, my gut reaction is to say that anything that comes out of Harvard these days is suspect as far as I am concerned. They have taken political correctness to a ridiculus extreme in a few too many cases to be totally believable on a subject so emotionally charged as gun ownership.
Does anyone remember the book on gun ownership in colonial times that was in the news earlier this year? The author claimed that there was little gun ownership then as I recall. Then it was found that he'd "fudged" his data in order to prove his thesis.
My point is, just because it agrees with your ideas of how things ought to be, doesn't make it so.
Even if it comes from Harvard.
Or maybe especially if it comes from Harvard.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:55 AM

Ditto, Kat.

I got burned out as much by the constant unwanted mail from the NRA as from the silly blather ardent antigunners rant with.

I never knew that growing up in a fairly normal Wisconsin family where guns were typically accepted as part of our rural life was a political position.

Think; "tools". They have a purpose and when used out of that purpose they are used wrongly. It ain't rocket science. Carrying a loaded, accessible gun in a motor vehicle is both dumb and against the law. Doing anything about another motorist except to drive courteously and defensively in their presence is both dumb and against the law.

I used controlled substances once upon a time. One of my kids got hooked on speed. connection? Nope, because I stopped using or holding or being ANYWHERE near dope when we learned of her coming birth. She never even HEARD of my past use. She still did drugs. My point is: I doubt that kids accept what their parents promote. A kid that LISTENS to their folks? Not bloody likely, certainly not in MY experience. 99% huh? We live in similar environments, Bobert, that SURE don't sound like the kids around here.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: DougR
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:58 AM

Bobert: I'm not going to dump on you. I think you need help! Even in West Virginia there must be agencies that can provide counseling for someone who sees boogie men behind every cedar tree. Get some help man!

Uncle Jacque: do not be fooled by the lapse in vitrolic rheteric regarding the NRA from the usual suspects. They just aren't hungry at the moment, and Bobert is so off the wall on this one even they can't suppor his POV. Bobert has a fever. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:04 AM

You're being awfully cynical tonight, Doug. Having trouble untangling the Christmas lights?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:06 AM

So I guess the way Dumbya grew up with oil-rich parents, law-breaking pals and siblings etc. had nothing to do with the way he's turned out?

There is no denying that home environment can have a profound and lasting effect on children, well into adulthood. Ask any teacher, any law enforcement officer, etc. Sure, there are occassional anamolies (sp), but kids learn first from their families, including the way they handle conflict.

katwhoreallywishestherewerenogunsanywhere & wasraisedwiththem

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:31 AM

I don't think you can look at any studies and decide based on the results that they are the right and only answer. I believe that any study can be skewed to be the outcome you want. I just took a satisfaction survey at work. Most everyone is dissatisfied with things at the agency but this survey was impossible to answer negatively.

My Dad who taught me or supported me in everything worth knowing and doing was a life long Republican and at one time an NRA member. I never once heard him utter a venomous work. He taught me to shoot and I am quite proficient. He also taught me silversmithing. He taught me to have my say when ever I felt the need and to be polite about because I just might be wrong.   Every year he volunteered to help people get to the poles to vote. Even the Democrats

You just can't can't say that because a person is a gun owner, and NRA member and a republican that they are a dangerous loon who spouts propaganda and ppoisons his children.

I do think it is ironic that this kid is the son of an NRA boss. But he could have been the child of a Baptist minister or a the local librarian.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:57 AM

OK, all those takin' issue with the appropriateness of linking the public behavior of a 21 year old "Adult" drving a BMW ( not exactly raised in a household without priviledge ) to his father whom is also a board member of the Virginia headquartered NRA. ; y'all are missing the point entirely. Bein' a fellow Virginian allow me to make the point further
First one has to be pretty hardcore "pro-gun" and proven "rightwing" to even be "considered" for an NRA board position.
2nd is the hardcore "P.R." the NRA must apply to make their social relevence more "sellable" to the rest of the vast "non-believer" Americans : "Gun Safety". I mean that's the whole raison d' etre for their poster mascot ,Eddie Eagle ( not making this up ).
I guess it's about here that the concept of "Leading by Example" would occur to some right about now.
It kinda takes the "mosy bang for the buck" outta all that P.R. funding spent on promoting the best face forward when one of the NRA's board members has a 21 year old son , whom he has raised with all of the right wing baggage one must have been raised on in a household that results in a 21 year old owning a BMW.
Forget even trying to start a debate over "working hard for what he's got". This is Northern Virginia, suburb to Wash D.C. , & one of the top 5 wealthiest ,thus most priviledged, areas in the entire nation.

Bottomline : I'm glad the Rev Bobert posted this little slice of Virginia life because it's now going to be "locally" interesting to follow just how this 21 year old grun slinging , overgrown privilegded brat will be treated in court and what kind of judgement he will get. Will he be treated "equally before the law" for truly mindless attempted murder with a deadly weapon or will the NRA network find a pro-bono , NRA-emember lawyer whom will ,you know , "get him off".
Considering the recent "Beltway Sniper" incident that terrified this neighborhood ( how soon y'all forget ) somehow there just ain't enough hours of public service while on probation for just such an act of reckless *criminal* discharge of a firearm *in traffic* at another motorist to make this Virginian resident feel that justice would be served.

Such an idiot's license to "bare arms" should be immediately *revoked* along with his license to drive that BMW for he has clearly demonstrated total incompitence to handle either and ,yes, this does reflect badly on an NRA *board member* just the way it would if a 21 year old of the Drug Enforcement Task Force was found busted on Cocaine abuse ,or worse, trafficking.

And ,yes my Brit compadres and commadres , I have seenand enjoyed the original BBC production of "Traffik"on DVD


It's kinda like how the Bush daughters keep gettin' arrested for public misbehavior due to alcohol abuse. Knowing that *alcoholism* is a *genetic predisposition* one can wonder out loud about Pres. Dubya who ain't sayin' about what chemistry besides alcohol he was indulging in , but never owned up to, during his documented "wild youth" till he was 40. Considering his Daddy was already Vice President when ol' G.Dubya was in his mid-30's and havin' hisself one good ol' boy time "indulgin"
drinkin' and wenchin' and in what was commonly the drug of choice for every rich kid with a guaranted "get outta jail free card" because of "daddy's" priviledged "conncections" ,namely Cocaine.

Anyway , I guess y'all needed more of the in the trenches Northern Virginian perspective on this issue of "Guns & Responsible Driving".

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:30 AM

Heard on the radio this morning that the Federal Court of Appeals in California has determined that the 2nd Amendment doesn't cover gun ownership. Too bad that won't stick.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Martunes
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:49 AM

OK. After reading this thread I couldn't help but add my 2 cents.
From a careful reading of the posts and my general knowledge of the myriad subjects it includes I for one have come to the conclusion that....
ALL people suck.
The exact wrong species has gotten control of the planet.

Happy Holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:23 AM

Well Jesus Christ and General Jackson!!! I have got to start taking things more seriously........I have obviously gone over the edge.........Ya' see, I read Bobertz post and like Don Meixner, saw the irony and humor and not much more. I am as concerned about road rage as I am about anything else in the story and the NRA linkage I just found ironic and amusing! Everybody sure did come out though and go for the debate end instead.

Remember when Jimmy Carter was standing at the bottom of the steps of Air Force One, speaking about values of shared cultures in one of the middle east country he had just landed in? And brother Billy stepped around behind the nose wheel of AF1 and took a piss? Or Dubya preaching family values while his daughter got shitfaced? We are constantly confronted with these little sidebars and frankly I just find them kinda' humorous and don't really want to build a case around them one way or the other. Hellfire folks, somewhere in this story is a joke about hi-line German cars too.

I gotta' get more serious I guess..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

I have to question that "study" saying that states with high gun ownership have the most gun homicides. I live in a state that has more guns than people; a state that has one million human beings total, including women, children and republicans, and, there are 10,000 concealed weapons permits here, yet we have one of the very lowest homicide rates in the country.
Statistics can be manipulated; for instance, Vermont has the smallest number of blacks, yet it is the safest state of all. What does that prove? Now, before you start the flame war, I am simply quoting facts. Do what you will with them, I did not make them up.
Bobert ol' boy, you sure dropped a clod in the churn this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM

No need to bother with studies, just look at the numbers. The US averages 25,000 gun related deaths per year (that's about 15,000 murders, nearly all the rest suicides, and a couple thousand accidental shootings when the kiddies and/or Homer Simpsons get their hands on the guns.

Compare those numbers to any other nation, and you won't come remotely close to the US numbers, after adjusting for population difference.

The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm with Bobert and kat on this one. I know that not everyone raised with guns in conservative families will attempt to murder other drivers on the freeway when they get pissed off at them. But of those who do, and that is what we are discussing here, is one who did, the upbringing of the male (because it is men who commit these crimes) virtually always has been a factor. And I would say that power and dominance (two male luxury car drivers) had a whole lot to do with this incident as well. I will even go out on a limb to say that it is possible the driver of the other car may not have been totally innocent in this case either.

I also agree that Mudcat's membership has become much more conservative and reactionary than it was just a few years ago, as has the American public.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:07 AM

Well, thankie, Spawzer, fir seein' the original post fir what it was. Heck, I wasn't trying to "drop a clod in the churn", as Kendall says BUT did get a tad cranked up when it was brought to my attention that, well, being close to Christmas and all, I shouldn't be mentioning such stuff...

And thanks, Tal, fir yer support and bringing up the obvious (to the two of us anyway...) questions and curiosities that we have about how this kid id goping to be treated in the court system...

Lastly, as I have pointed out before, I am a *reponsible* gun owner having grown up with guns and in the NRA. One of the first things I learned in the NRA *safety classes* was never point a gun, loaded or unloaded at another person. Hey, one would think that is obvious but to a lot of folks it isn't. I find it sad that the NRA has changed its mission away from *gun safety* to *gun ownership*. In doing so, lots of *responsible* parents won't send their kids to learn *gun safety*, which alone would cut down on deaths by guns, for fear that their kids are going to get the rest of the NRA's right-winged indoctrination.

Doug: Thanks fir yer corn-cern about my mental health but I'm feeling just fine. We have snow and I'm off to work in my not-so-purdy M880 Army truck and the P-Vine is going with me today. Life is good...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:15 AM

It always strikes me that the quote "They'll take my guns when they pull them from my cold, dead hands" is a classic case of someone shooting themselves in the foot. I'm sure it must evoke an instinctive response "That might not be such a bad idea" from enormous number of people. Still I suppose it's not intended as a way of persuading outsiders, but of encouraging members.

It always seems strange that this devotion to guns in the States seems to be so associated with right wing politics. I'd have thought that if anything a devotion to the right of people to have guns is more liberal than anything. But in any case, other hobbies don't have any particular association with any particular variety of politics. There's foxhunting in this country - but even there the division of opinion is more to do with rural/urban than left right (and the overwhelming majority of people who support all parties are agreed in disapproving of the activity.)

Plenty of room for people to disagree with each other over this sort of thing (and no reason whatsover why such disagreements can't be friendly, so that there is no reason for people to feel they should need to walk around on tiptoes avoiding them). But what's it got to do with the kind of politics that is about how much people should earn and what taxes they should pay and how the good of the world should be apportioned among the human family.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:20 AM

It isn't the NRA's responsibility to teach children gun safety, and keep guns out of the hands of children. It is the job of parents to do that. No organization, regardless of it's philosophies, is responsible for irresponsible members.

If the government wants us all to have guns, then maybe the government ought to take responsibility for the whereabouts of those guns, and require gun safety classes for all owners and people who reside with them. The government is responsible for many problems related to gun ownership, and they ought to be changing laws to deal with those problems, just as is done with other social problems, like drunk driving and domestic violence. Although not much is being done about domestic violence either.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:38 AM

I hadn't heard about this news story. Couldn't find mention of it at the Washington Times site or the three major TV network news sites, but here's the article from the Washington Post (seems the shooting incident itself occurred last Sunday): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16459-2002Dec5.html

Friday, December 6, 2002; Page B02

VIRGINIA

Charge in car shooting: U.S. Park Police have arrested the driver of a gray BMW who allegedly fired into a blue Mercedes-Benz on the George Washington Memorial Parkway on Sunday, missing the other driver's head by inches, a spokesman said yesterday.

David M. Keene, 21, of the District was arrested Wednesday and has been charged in U.S. District Court with using a firearm during a crime of violence.

Park Police said the road rage incident erupted as the cars traveled north on the parkway near the exit for Route 123 in Fairfax County.

"This is serious -- even if the guy didn't get hurt," said Sgt. Scott Fear, a Park Police spokesman. Fear said the drivers had been passing one another on the roadway and one may have cut the other off.

The victim pulled over and jotted down the license tag number, and police located the car, Fear said.
----------------------------------

Can't find any mention anywhere of a connection between this guy and David A. Keene of the NRA. Bobert, where did you find the info that they are related?

As to the issue being discussed here, there may be a connection between the upbringing of a son of an NRA Board member and that son's willingness to break the law, attempt murder and endanger other drivers on the road. Then again, there may not be. Is the father a lawbreaker and a road-rage driver? Has the father ever tried to murder anyone? In other words, the only connection I see is the use of a gun... and there are certainly plenty of people out there who use guns to commit crimes yet have no connection to the NRA. On the other hand, there may be a connection between their crimes and their upbringing.

Without knowing more about this kid's home life and his attitude toward his father, we can't really say whether he's following in his father's footsteps or whether he's rebelling by using a gun in a way his father would disapprove of. (Assuming that the two Keenes are in fact related, I do hope that David A disapproves of David M's actions of last Sunday!)

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 10:45 AM

Dondarlin'...the only difference is that a Baptist minister and/or librarians do not have careers which promote lethal weapons, at least not in most cases.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Declan
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:15 AM

I don't know much about this right to bear arms thing, coming from where I do where its illegal for most people to carry guns openly, although there are some who do and use them more frequently than anyone would like, mostly for either criminal or "political" motives. Their word - not mine.

It does seem to me however, that regardless of his upbringing or political affiliation, if he hadn't had a gun in his car he wouldn't have been able to shoot anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:28 AM

Bingo! That's the thing, here is a guy driving around in a luxury car with a loaded weapon well within reach, to pull out and shoot at any driver he don't like the looks of. And after the DC sniper shootings, carrying guns in cars damn well ought to be an issue of enough importance to discuss here, bullshit Christian "Christmas" excuses be damned (we don't all worship Jesus, you know).

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:30 AM

(quote)
"...as I have pointed out before, I am a *reponsible* gun owner having grown up with guns and in the NRA. One of the first things I learned in the NRA *safety classes* was never point a gun, loaded or unloaded at another person."

Rev.Bobert ,y'all just tripped a memory tripwire with that statement in regards to the friend whose townhouse I rent half of for my digital studio/homebase.
It has to do with his upbringing in Oklahoma with a father who later became , and is presently , in the F.B.I . as part of anti-terror security and presently serving. I've met him and he's as honest and no-nonsense direct yet not at all humorless nor lacking in his genuine friendliness as I'd ever want to meet. However ,according to his son and backed up by his kinder,gentler mother ,he was far more strict and could be sternly disciplinarian during formative years up through my friend's multi-year duty in the Navy aboard a nuke sub.
The point : Something different in the way "westerners" have passed along that quote of "Never point a point a firearm at someone ever". The way my friend , a peaceful yet devote "liberatrian" computer-geeker , described how his father raised him and his brother about responsible gun-ownership with the alteration of that phrase caught my ear: QUOTE
" Never point a firearm at someone unless you intend to take a life ".

Now I can appreciate the sort of frontier pychology/culture involved here and could see ol' Sherrif Andy Taylor of Mayberry sayin' this to Opie as to mean that you shouldn't point a gun at all at a person at all becuase you take on the power of life and death over another the moment you do.
BUT , in these violent times where there are more murders comitted in passion amongst neighbors/lovers/relatives than in the act of a crime ( not counting the always tragic accidents ) one can understand how I was chilled to the bone to hear the uprasing of generations of gun-totin' kids, perhaps not so West of the Mississippi , hearing " Never point a firearm at someone unless you means to take a life " instead of "Never point a gun , PERIOD, at another person." being reinforced .

To my ear *nothing* is lost in the translation and this *wild west* frontier culture promoting too easily being able to take the life of another human just doesn't ring right with me. That's the type of advice you give a fellow *law enforcement* or *military* recruit and *not* a civilian minor.

And the N.R.A. has a proen track record of acting as a central clearing house of just such *militia-sympathizer* libertarian wingnuts whom we ocasionally hear of declaring themselves as sovereign "Freemen" obsolvoing themselves of owing any taxes to the Fed and all of the Arian Nation "wrong crowd" that undeniably intermingles.
I guess if one *not* obsolve the Saudi's for tolerating ,when not outright supporting ,terrorist networks from within their own then one can *not* obsolve the N.R.A. for whom they tolerate in their ranks just to maintain politically effective membership numbers.

what's buckshot for the goose is certainly buckshot for the gander.
Case closed ;-)

Next.......

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:41 AM

Tsk, tsk......GUEST.........Matriot....you were doing so well. I have been watching your posts lately, and you have been engaging, and with great intellect, and I have even learned a few things. But then you just have to attack what others find sacred. "Bullshit christian"..........is that really necessary?

In order for that "fact" to have merit, you would have to show the number of people who carry weapons that don't ever do anything like this. It is demagogic to really on stories like this instead of sound data. I travel over 60,000 miles a year in an automobile, in a state that has a "shall issue" license to carry a concealed weapon. I never had a weapon pulled on me, but I have experienced many road ragers. I even had one actually bump my rear bumper at 75 miles per hour. If those people simply hadn't had a car, then this would never have happened, right?

Declan, your observations are fair enough. The simple fact is that guns are a part of our culture from the very earliest times straight through to the present. It is not as simple as "if we didn't have 'em, this wouldn't happen". The anti gun folks arguments lack logic, are almost alway based on emotion and never on stats. Their arguments ignore the times guns have saved lives, the amount that are owned and used responsibly, the fact that in states where gun ownership is least restricted the violent crime rate is usually much lower, etc.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Declan
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

Big Mick,

US Laws are US laws and are not really any of my business, but sometimes a dispassionate outsider can help to put a debate into some sort of perspective.

I don't think I'd fit in very well with your culture in any event since I have never owned (or wanted to own, at least since I was a small child) either a car or a gun.

But I understand why this man had a car !

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:05 PM

Guns Don't Kill People...




Oh wait a minute...   




YES THEY DO!



Never mind, Sorry , Forget I said anything.




Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:15 PM

Happiness is:

A Warm Gun www.thewarmguns.com/audio/music.htm
Tykes with Guns tykeswithguns.whiteh0use.net/songs.html
Young Guns www.ibizwa.com/kimberleydreamtime/younguns.htm
Top Guns topgunsinc.com/MusicVideo.html
I Got the Guns www.plaza101.com/plaza/store/shop3931/pdB00006LI2F/Online/Music/Country/

grunks with guns www.gnoosic.com/discussion/grunks+with+guns.html offers us info on:

nuns with guns
Midgets with Guns
Blue Baby and the Hired Guns
Stick Men with Ray Guns
Drunks with Guns
Girls with Guns
Cows with Guns

We Americans just love our guns, guns, guns!!! And our bombs, bombs, bombs!!! And our nukes are GOOD nukes, but everyone else must have NO NUKES! And if you got nukes we gave you that we want back now , then we will NUKE YOU TOO!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:30 PM

Folks, the fact is America has a problem with guns. There are plenty of places that have lots of guns that don't have a problem with kids shooting each other and gun battles on the highway.

I personally don't think it's the guns that are the problem. I think it's the "cold dead hands" mentality that idolizes guns and worships them as a source of freedom.

If someone has an alcohol problem, you keep them away from alcohol. If they have a drug problem, you keep them away from drugs. The quickest solution might be to take the guns away, but given the history of the disease it would probably make it worse (evil government trying to take my freedom to shoot other people!)

Dunno, folks. Of crouse, in my household, the gun safety phrase was, "Honey, if it's important enough to shoot somebody, it has to be important enough to kill 'em."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:42 PM

Americans also have an increasing problem with using their cars as deadly weapons. When you bring the two together, you can just imagine how sexy the CNN/Fox/MSNBC triumverate might find it. EXCEPT when it is one of their own tootin their luxury car horns and totin their guns, eh?

This is a story tailor made for the right wing nut media. Wonder why they aren't making this one a national media story?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:44 PM

Oh, sorry. Fox News must have been too busy covering the Whitney interview and the Winona Ryder trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:51 PM

Still can't find anything that says definitively that David M is the son of David A, but I did find a couple of references to David M as the "director for on-line communications" (i.e. webmaster) for the American Conservative Union, of which David A is chairman and Diana Keene is Administrative Director (who's Diana? David A's wife or daughter or what?). Here's a page listing David M's position: http://www.conservative.org/ActionNet/10112002.htm

Here's the June 15, 2002 edition of Chuck Muth's News & Views, which heralds the ACU's new website created by "in-house webmaster" David M: http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg00033.html

Interestingly, the ACU website's "Pressroom" does not include an article on David M's arrest (no surprise here, regardless of whether it's the same David M). Mostly, the pressroom consists of news blurbs bashing Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:58 PM

Or is David M's daddy the reason why this story has been censored? Here is the American Conservative Union's biography of daddy boy:

David A. Keene is Chairman of the American Conservative Union, the Nation's oldest and largest grassroots conservative organization. He also serves as a Lobbyist with The Carmen Group, a governmental affairs and legislative relations firm based in Washington, DC.

Mr. Keene is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin Law School. He has been a John F. Kennedy Fellow at Harvard University and is a former member of the Board of Visitors of the School of Public Policy at Duke University. He was a visiting professional scholar at the Freedom Forum First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University.

Mr. Keene's political experience is extensive. He has been involved in presidential politics since 1968. He worked in the White House during the Nixon Administration as political assistant to Vice President Spiro Agnew and on Capitol Hill as Executive Assistant to Senator James L. Buckley.

As Southern Regional Coordinator for Ronald Reagan in 1976 and National Political Director for George Bush in 1980, Mr. Keene won recognition for his skill as a political organizer and strategist. Additionally, Mr. Keene was a senior political consultant to Republican presidential candidate Robert Dole in 1988 and was an informal advisor during the 1996 campaign.

He has written extensively on U.S. politics and is a regular guest on political talk shows and news segments. He currently writes a regular column for The Hill, a newspaper covering Congress.

As the head of the American Conservative Union, Mr. Keene is an ideal guest for dialogue on Presidential and Congressional campaigns as well as commentary on the issues of the day from a conservative perspective.

Mr. Keene is available to engage in discusion and debate with government officials or others, and to serve as guest Host on Radio and Television programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

SharonA, we seem to be crossing streams here! And here is what the good ole Union say it works hard for:

Over the years, ACU has been on the cutting edge of major public policy battles. Among ACU's significant efforts, past and present, are fighting to keep OSHA off the back of small businesses, opposing the Panama Canal giveaway, opposing the SALT treaties, supporting aid to freedom fighters in Marxist countries, promoting the confirmation of conservative Justices to the Supreme Court, battling against higher taxes, and advocating the need for near-term deployment of strategic defenses.

In 1994, through its Citizens Against Rationing Health coalition, sponsorship of national "town meetings," and a "Health Care Truth Tour," ACU spearheaded the conservative response on the health reform issue.

Whether fighting for lower taxes and less government spending, more effective and efficient military protection, or the cause of freedom world- wide, by speaking for the entire conservative movement the American Conservative Union is always "Your Conservative Voice in Washington."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:02 PM

"Or is David M's daddy the reason why this story has been censored?" Could be, GUEST, could be. Maybe that's why I can't find any local-news articles that mention a relationship between the two. Just how much "pull" does this David A guy have, anyway??? Oh, wait... conservative... Republican... Dubya... never mind. Silly me!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:21 PM

I've no doubt Big Mick knows how to pick out which GUEST is which, but it's a pretty neat trick to be able to do that.