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Alcoholism
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Amos Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:05 AM This gives new dimensions to the expression "flaming asshole". But y'know I think it is just a mishmash of extremes -- a high natural intelligence, technical skills (some) and a really rough case of plebian immaturity. Bad combination. WHy not come back when you have acquired some adulthood? At least until you are nineteen. A |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Kelida Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:07 AM I'm 17, Amos, and I don't act that way. . . |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Amos Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:13 AM I know sweetie, and my remark was not aimed at you, either. Sorry if it offended. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Kelida Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:16 AM Just wanted to put a good word in for people who don't act like inconsiderate, immature @$$holes. . . Peace--Keli |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST, Threadie Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:25 AM He was talking about Doug, I think The "I dont drink scotch" one wasn't funny and was only mildly helpful. They think they're not what they are. That's because they only judge themselves and others by their own standards. Beware John. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: The Beanster Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:31 AM John, I really admire your courage in admitting that you're having a problem with alcohol. It's not easy to admit to yourself, let alone others, that you need some help. But don't let it stop here. If you don't take any action, nothing will change. Like others have said, there is lots of support and treatment out there. You're not alone with this--many people know firsthand what you're going through. Talk to them. And don't only do it for your loved ones, do it for YOU. And Jon Freeman, sounds like you may be in the same boat. Why do you say you're past the point of caring? I keep writing things here in this message and then erasing them because it all sounds so contrite and stupid--obviously, I don't know what to say but I've always enjoyed your posts in the past and I had to say something. Neither of you deserves to suffer this way...sending good wishes to both of you. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:55 AM Two people wrote me to complain about this thread, so I stopped to take a look. Yeah, it's nasty. I deleted a graphic since they're not allowed, and also the replies related to the graphic. Generally, though, we try to avoid censoring messages unless they are direct attacks on individuals. You guys know the routine. If you want to stop flames, don't reply to flamers. Act as if they weren't here. There is a worthwhile discussion going on here in this thread - direct your attention to that, and ignore the nasty stuff. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Teasle Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:18 AM John Evans - there are some good people at the Mudcat who will no doubt be able to help and support in varying degrees ... they are easy to spot .. I send you my good wishes too ... I don't consider myself to be sanctimonious or self-righteous and hope I don't come across in that way but the SERENITY PRAYER which is something I know AA members often quote is a useful maxim to us all as we bump along in this complex life ... God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference. Go for it! My life has been profoundly affected by alcohol - my father and my brother both violent alcoholics - my ex partner .... none of them ever acknowledged that they had a problem with alcohol (or a problem masked by alcohol). However, a very good friend of mine (female) reached her 'rock bottom' four years ago and went to AA. She has earned the respect of all who know her by facing her demons and succeeding in maintaining her sobriety. She has turned her life around .... in an amazing way. She is an inspiration t me. I confess, I didn't think she would be able to do it ... but she has. You can do it... Love to you this Easter, Teasle |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Jon Freeman Date: 21 Apr 00 - 09:57 AM It's been an interesting thread so far. There have been several BS around (as usual) and some of them like the Marmite thread have less to do with music than this thread (as Rick and others have mentioned alchololim, other drug abuse and musicians as been an issue for centuries) but have not attracted anything like the same degree of abuse and I can't help wonder why: Are they the sort of sick people that delight in making fun of another persons problems? Or did it hit a nerve end with them. Could it be that they have problems that they don't wish to face and that this thread was in danger of discussing this ground? Jon |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Wesley S Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:11 AM Jon - I suspect you're on to something. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Willie-O Date: 21 Apr 00 - 12:22 PM Time for me to weigh in here with some alternative suggestions, which may be of interest to John or Jon or anyone who wonders about their relationship with alcohol:
I quit drinking a year and a half ago, cause I felt my life needed changing and sorting out and that was the first thing I needed to do. After 40,000 beers or so, (sixpack a day more or less for twenty years) I figure I'd pretty much had my quota and needed to get more done in my remaining productive years (being 42 and trying to switch from being a usually-unemployed carpenter to a usually-employed techie; a transition I'm still working on ) Like the vast majority of people who succeed in quitting drinking (or smoking) I did not join AA or any other group. And I meant to call up and get some counselling but I never did that either. When I quit it was more or less spontaneous, I was doing a lot of reading and online research in order to study what was happening to me, and work it out. The first surprise I had was how difficult stopping wasn't. No shakes, no nausea, no physical symptoms whatsoever. (Until I stopped, I'd be into the beer by 11 a.m. most days at home, and desperate for a couple at lunch if I was working. That memory is, more than any other factor and there are many, what keeps me away from the stuff. I don't ever want to feel like that again.) AA never interested me, partly because I'm a lifelong atheist and not interested in a religious-based program (although you will hear the standard line about how AA also welcomes atheists and agnostics, its sort of like pitying the sinners, not for me thanks); and secondly because if you try on those twelve steps, the first one is to "admit that you are powerless over alcohol." With all due respect to the folks that this program has helped, I think that's a bunch of crap. If I was powerless over alcohol I'd still be drinking it. I firmly believe, that I quit drinking by finding my personal strength and resources, and utilizing them. That was a conviction I came to before I discovered the existence of some alternative-to-AA groups for which the primary tenets are just those two factors--first, they have a completely non-religiously-oriented recovery program, whatever their beliefs may be, and second, that they use their personal power instead of denying it. You can find out more about this approach at: www.unhooked.com I didn't join this group either, or particularly subscribe to their whole platform, but it helps to have support, no doubt about it; two weeks after I had my last beer, I started talking about it on a mailing list of old friends and that helped me a lot. The peculiar thing you find, in this thread and in the world at large, is how successful AA has been at dominating the discussion, such that society equates sobriety with AA just like burgers and McDonalds. The thing is, people are different, their problems, needs and recovery processes are not all the same, and the AA "everyone follow these steps, and if you question them you're in denial, if you don't keep going to meetings you will relapse and die in the gutter" is actually rather cultlike in its circular logic. If you look into the subject, you will soon discover that all is not as it appears; there is considerable medical and legal controversy about the effectiveness or lack thereof of the 12-step model, (not to mention its recent application to a host of other problems which are also defined as addictions although they are physiologically very different), the disease model, and whether problem drinkers or alcoholics can ever become moderate social drinkers again. And this is the second thing that surprised me: when I'd tell people I quit drinking, they'd either say "Why?" or "Have you joined AA? and start to tell me about their involvement with a 12-step program for something or other. For me, the point was to quit drinking and improve my life, not join some club.
A couple of other net resources you should check out:
Whoa, long posting. I DO go on about this stuff. John E, join the Cat (if you aren't already a member) and drop me a personal if you want to discuss this further. There are many routes out of this swamp. Best, Bill Cameron aka Willie-O
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Wesley S Date: 21 Apr 00 - 12:54 PM Willie-O I'm glad your recovery is going so well. Good for you - keep it up. But I thing you have to admit that there are some people out there that ARE powerless over alcohol and for them and others AA might just work. I'm glad that you posted your resources and I hope that John looks into them AND AA to see which one will work for him. Some people like Gibons and some prefer Martins. The important thing is that if someone perceives that they have a problem then they should look into ways that they can get help with it. John - reguardless of which road you decide to go down, I'll be thinking about you and wishing you the best. Feel free to contact me. Wesley S. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Fortunato Date: 21 Apr 00 - 12:56 PM If you're still out there, John. Good luck to you. I hope you find meaning and reward in what you choose to replace alcohol. Cheers, Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 00 - 01:20 PM Fascinating post Willie. Lots to think about. Hi Jon. 'Fraid I disagree with you about the various flamers' motives here. These are obviously the same folks who've made prior appearences in threads that had nothing to do with alcohol, or AA, or anything related. I think his/her/their buttons get pushed by "sentimentality, plain and simple". The profanity and scatalogical content just strike me as one of the excesses that being anonymous fosters. My own highly selfish best case scenario for Mudcat would be one where discussions like this (alcoholism) could take place without interruptions. I'm aware though that some find them absolutely out of place in a music site. Others here get VERY upset when things turn political, and are forever telling the rest to "stop posting here, at once!(personally, I think those discussions/arguements are usually fascinating) I'd love to see the music chats reflect what "I" consider folk music, and the opinions given based on some "investment". T'aint gonna happen the way I want it though, so I'll go with the flow til I find it doesn't interest me enough to stay. Flaming is simply the price of of doing business on the net. I know some would like to think that folkies are too nice to "lose it" and take pot shots at others, but they're wrong. IN GENERAL, I've found the folk community pretty damned tolerant...but even folkies go ballistic at times. Monitored (and paid) membership here would eliminate 90% of it. AND be WORTH it! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Apr 00 - 01:29 PM Everyone, please stop shouting. Alcoholism is VERY relevant to music. Alcohol and music are frequently "served" side by side in the same establishments. If you aspire to make your living by music - which is hard enough without an alcohol problem - it is even harder to be confronted with your temptation in your place of business. Although I don't want to mention any names, because I am not sufficiently informed about particular circumstances, I think it's a safe bet that alcohol has contributed to the early deaths of many folksingers. I remember seeing one famous and talented musician drink himself into a paralytic stupor at a party held in his honor. He is no longer with us. It behooves all of us to take alcoholism seriously and do what we can to prevent such tragedies. I am not qualified to recommend any particular method for overcoming an alcohol problem. By all means, search for the best help you can find, but don't delay getting help until you have found the perfect helpers. A drowning person may need to reach for the closest lifeline, even if it isn't the best. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Jim the Bart Date: 21 Apr 00 - 01:43 PM John Evans - I congratulate you on the courage to face this problem. I'm trying to come to grips with how to help a friend who also can't stop drinking and won't admit that it's his problem to solve. I wish I could offer advice as good as some that you've gotten here, but I don't have anything but my good wishes to offer. And you have them. One thing to consider as you try to beat this demon - is there another problem hiding behind the drinking? I have been involved with some extremely talented musicians (it always comes back to music for me somehow) who self-destructed through drinking; some through drugs. What I found in some cases was that it was easier for them to say they failed because they drank then to face their deeper fears and problems. I'm not presuming to say this applies to you, and alcohol is a big enough problem on its own. But if you find yourself quitting and then backsliding, it may be time to dig a little deeper. Good luck. And she knows the pain I'm going through In this world inside my head 'Cause there's a devil in the bottle And it wants to see me dead |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: SINSULL Date: 21 Apr 00 - 01:47 PM To John Evans: I think you are the same John who asked about songs related to infidelity and regret - no? And none of the suggestions quite met your expectations.. Be kinder to yourself, John. And do something kind for someone else today. Something simple and anonymous. You'll feel better. To Jon Freeman: Your music makes me happy. I will continue to ask for the banjo. To hell with your neighbors. You did your anonymous good deed last night on "Hearme". Now take some credit for sharing yourself and your talent and feel better about yourself. This past week fliers were passed out at Shea Stadium announcing "Battery Day" to honor John Rocker (Rocket?). My reaction was that it would be better to welcome him with absolute silence. Not a word; not a purchase of a hotdog or a beer or a tee shirt. I feel the same about the talented little boy who is misbehaving here. Ignore him and he will go away until he grows up. Then he may even be willing to share his talents with us. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: DougR Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:21 PM Joe Offer: You're right, of course. I regret participating in the little exchange of barbs. It just struck me that any subject as serious as this one deserves better treatment and originator more positive support. He wasn't getting it from the Flamer and I reacted. Childish of me. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: John Evans Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:11 PM John Evans here I'm still here, and thanks to everyone who's given me advice, kind thoughts and encouragement. I think however that I'll continue any further dialogue via private messages Thanks to you all (apart from the wierd people) John |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Whistle Stop Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:19 PM Jim Dixon brings up an excellent point about the interconnectedness of music performance and alcohol. This might be worth a separate thread. Like Willie-O, I gave up drinking several (6+) years ago, at the age of 35, for personal reasons. I did not, and do not, consider myself an alcoholic; I simply saw no value in it any more, and recognized that it was a habit that was becoming more firmly entrenched in my life the longer I kept it up. Also like Willie-O, I was surprised at how easy it was -- for me, anyway. I do not claim that this is the same for everyone; I'm just lucky in that respect. Since that time, I have continued to work as a part-time musician, which means that I typically spend at least one night a week in a bar, from early evening until the wee hours of the morning. It is a strange experience to be stone-cold sober, but surrounded by drunks (sorry if that term offends, but the "regulars" in the establishments I play at are drunks, by anyone's definition). It makes me realize what I used to look, act and sound like when I was drinking. I don't miss it at all -- again, I'm lucky that way. I would love it if there was a way I could continue working as a musician without spending so much time in bars. By "working as a musician," I mean putting on a professional, well-presented performance, and getting paid for it, on a regular basis. But I find it very difficult to find non-drinking venues that provide the infrastructure, steady work, and decent pay that I get in the bars. I'd be interested to hear if others are on the horns of the same dilemma, and if they've found a way to practice their craft/profession in non-alcoholic environments. Any thoughts? |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: MAG (inactive) Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:40 PM this thread has touched a lot of notes for me. Our flamer, first, has had some experience with 12 step programs, as he is aware that members are not to identify themselves publicly. I'll go on to say that my experience in Al-Anon has taught me that 12stepping is a very valuable program, AND that there is a hell of a lot of bad program out there. since program has been quoted all over the place, another slogan is, "Take what you like, and leave the rest." The best bet is to find a Very Large group (hopefully you are in a city) where there is a wide variety of opinion; then you don't get cooped up with bad programmers who insist on reciting the Lord's Prayer (in violation of program principles, I might add). "Ecstasy" came up somewhere above; it is a designer drug, and those who have told me to try it should the opportunity present itself are without exception the most fucked up people I have ever met. And those who insisted they had to use -- whatever -- because it helped their music, or writing, were just plain hooked. Would Coleridge have given us "Kubla Khan" without opium? Maybe not, but he would have given us other poems, and lived longer to give us more of them. Off my soapbox now. MA |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Twitchy Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:55 PM (Apologies to Joe Offer for posting this photo in this thread.) For those of you who are curious and want to see what Joe deleted and what triggered Moonchild's nervous breakdown over it, click here. (It's really quite tame. All that matzoh meal and kreplach soup must have triggered a psychotic reaction.) |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Willie-O Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:22 PM Whistle Stop takes the discussion in an interesting direction. Fairly recently I've started playing in bars again--and it just depends what the scene is like, really. I don't mind being there for the most part, as long as everybody there isn't loaded, loud and boring. Being surrounded by drunks does not make me want to join in. I just assess bars like any other social situation: what's going on here besides alcohol?--anything worth sticking around for? Good music, good company or hopefully both? As far as choosing a recovery program if that's what one wants to try, I would urge anyone to do some research on the breadth of philosophies that are out there before committing to a particular group. (My criticism is not limited to AA--the recovery group/program/counselling field seems to have a lot of conflict between the different groups and professionals, and it doesn't seem you can rely on much balanced information from within a group. That is, you _might_ get it, you might not. Sorry MAG, no intention to offend, but you've just about made the point for me.) By the way, just to clarify, the _quitting_ was easy--much easier than I had expected. (You may be lucky like me and get a long way down the road towards physical addiction, without reaching that point. If you think you have a real problem with it, it's better to deal with it sooner than later.) Maintaining that decision and figuring out new ways to live my life--that part is hard. W-O |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: The Beanster Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:35 PM Willie-O, I liked what you said before about the AA tenet that you must admit that you're powerless over alcohol. I always thought that was crap, too. Seems backwards to me--if you're powerless over it, how are you ever going to get control over it? But I suppose what AA wants you to do is substitute an Almighty Something Else for the Almighty Alcohol. I am an agnostic justthisside of atheism so I too, disagree with this powerlessness stuff. I know AA has helped SO many people and I think that's great, of course--but for people who don't go with that Higher Power idea, I do think that looking for an alternative to AA would be a good idea. Thanks for broadening that horizon. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: MAG (inactive) Date: 21 Apr 00 - 05:00 PM No disagreement from me, to either of you. -- MA |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Willie-O Date: 21 Apr 00 - 05:08 PM Personally, I find it more useful to not have a group or a "sponsor" to keep me on the straight and narrow, because I have to do it myself, and I can't put anything over on myself, the only person who is always with me...if ya followed that. One little notion I've found useful is the concept of the addictive voice. Works like this: when you feel that craving for alcohol, even though it seems to be coming from inside of you, it IS NOT YOU. It's the Addictive Voice talking. You can just take that message, fold it up and put in in your pocket, because it isn't from you, its just directed _to_ you. (In fact it's spam!) Also, the craving, physiologically, is a sugar craving. So eat a chocolate bar or a donut. Really works! It passes. It only gets easier though if you quit stone cold. If you try to cut down gradually you are making your life very difficult because all the time you're going to have to decide "can I have a drink now?" I never had any luck with that approach. There's an approach called Moderation Management which promotes controlled drinking rather than complete abstinence, but I'm happy enough with the results of the latter that I don't care to risk messing myself up for the sake of having a beer once a week or something. Might be helpful for people concerned about their alcohol habits but unwilling to stop. W-O |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Dharmabum Date: 21 Apr 00 - 05:21 PM I don't reply to very many threads but this one hits too close to home. So here's my .02. I'm 47 years old and i've had to deal with drug/alchohol problems for more than half of my life now. First with my wife,who passed away 3 years ago,and a very talented artist in her own rite,and now with my daughter,who is 60 days clean & sober. I can't speak for anyone with an addictive problem,nor can I offer any solutions,Only you can make those decisions. But I can say this,Caring about and loving someone with an addiction makes life tough. Simply put,if it's causing problems,It is a problem. We all carry our own little demons of one sort or another. Alch/drug addiction just happens to be one that has a readily available network of support ,if you choose to use it. And A A is not the only form of support. Hope I don't come off sounding preachy, certainly not my intention. Whatever route you decide to take, I wish you all the strength,courage, hope and whatever else it takes. Ron. P.S. Music Related? Try concentrating on stage while your wife is getting sloshed in the audience. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Gary T Date: 21 Apr 00 - 06:58 PM Regarding Willie-O's mention of "controlled drinking", and his earlier reference to "controversy about...whether problem drinkers or alcoholics can ever become moderate social drinkers again," my understanding is there is a distinction between alcohol abusers (problem drinkers) and alcoholics. Alcoholics have a physiological handicap, they are physically incapable of stopping at one drink (this trait seems to be at least partially hereditary). They can never become social drinkers, it's essentially all or nothing. Moderate drinking is not possible for them. Alcohol abusers, on the other hand, are theoretically capable of using alcohol in moderation. Whether any given individual can accomplish this depends on various factors, and many are wise not to tempt fate, but it is within the realm of possibility. How one reliably determines the difference between the two situations I don't know, other than trial and error. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Jon Freeman Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:22 PM Interesting distinction. I fit more into the alcohol abuser category. There have been times when I have gone out and simply got blind drunk and sometimes this has gone on for a period of a month or more but the longer periods have nearly always been brought on by emotional upsets and when I have decided that it is time to stop that, it has never been hard. Other than that, I very rarely get blind drunk but I find it very difficult to relax without alcohol inside me and I tend to just keep topping up, the amount I need seems to get higher, my consumption increases until I say stop and then I cut right down agan and go round in the same circle. Just to try to exlain, on one hand, it is like having a demon inside you shouting "drink, drink..." and coupled the mental battle, a tension, fear and nervousness inside me and although I know it isn't the answer, having a drink puts a stop to all of this so eventually I give in. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:09 PM When I started playing professionally (bars for 20 years) 32 years ago, I drank as much as most of my musical friends did (which was quite a bit). One problem was that it didn't appear to affect my singing or playing at all. Same thing with dope. Grass, hash, coke. All easily available and free (to musicians of course). After about 8 years I started having agonizing hangovers and migraine-like headaches. I stopped. To me, the sad thing was that I never liked the taste of alcohol, and dope often made me dizzy. But to a shy person in an extroverted profession, it allowed me to feel like "one of the guys and gals". Silly reason to get into it in the first place eh? Guess it gave me enough false confidence to face bar audiences night after night. (too bad I waited til the age of 40 to kick THAT habit!) What got me back to my first love of folk music was reading a LOT of Quentin Crisp. Now THAT guy gave me something worthwhile...with no hangovers! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Willie-O Date: 22 Apr 00 - 08:48 AM Certainly there are different degrees of abuse--but I think the heredity theory is very dubious science. There is a lot of theory which is inappropriately promoted as gospel, something I am liable to do myself. Widely publicized statistical data shows that different ethnic groups have very different rates of alcoholism, but interpreting this data is difficult. Hereditary-alcoholism theorists suggest that the longer alcohol has been a part of a culture, the smaller the proportion of alcoholics because they have less evolutionary success. A tenuous theory. The cultural factors theory explains the same data by pointing out cultures which ritualize the social or religious use of alcohol, but strongly discourage excessive consumption and drunkenness (Jewish and Italian society are the usual ones cited--both have very low rates of identified alcoholism.) North American alcohol culture has been strongly influenced by the temperance movement which advocated an all-or-nothing approach. You know, zero-tolerance. Some people need to not drink any alcohol, ever, but as a universal cure-all, it's a strategy lacking in breadth.
But if you drink a lot of alcohol for a long period of time, your physiology changes--if like me you have always had a high tolerance for alcohol, you are probably at more risk of developing a severe problem with it than if you get sick every time you drink. The thing is, eventually your liver stops working right, and instead of being processed normally and released gradually, the alcohol is metabolized straight into the bloodstream--and that's when you may get to the point of intoxication and unpredictable behaviour after one or two drinks. By the way, thanks Dharmabum. I feel like I've said a lot here, and maybe we should let this thread drop off since John E decided to go to private discussion--anyone who wants to keep this discussion going care to start a new thread? Best of luck & positive reinforcement to everyone working through this issue in their lives. Willie-O
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: JedMarum Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:01 AM John - you've had so many thoughtful and supportive comments here in this thread, I feel redundant by adding my own. I do agree with so much that has been said, though, and agree that alocohol can be a powerfully destructive force. Clearly AA is an organization that will help you. I realize that some peopl harbor anger toward expressions of faith in any form, but even if you have little or no faith yourself, AA is still the place I would urge you to start. I hope you would not let your personal religious convictions stand in the way of letting this organization help you. In my own experience (I do not drink at all, now) - I do not believe I was alcoloholic; though I drank 1 to 3 beers each day for years, and occasional party days of excess - I loved beer and never have wanted to give it up, but at a routine physical discovered that I have a very high tri-glyceride level, a condition that will cost me years of my life. Every drink I take now shortens my life. It was as easy choice; I gave it up immediately, and have never regretted it. I have also been surprised how easy it was to go without it. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Gypsy Date: 23 Apr 00 - 01:06 AM Can't let this one drop...John, if you are out there, whatever choice you make, will be right for you. Addiction runs in my family, have LOTS of alcoholics, and stopped drinking 8 years ago myself. It's a nasty, difficult drug to deal with. And the real bitch is not only is it legal, but portrayed in such a fashion that it appears that people are happy when drunk...forgetting that alcohol is a depressant. I send the energy of the universe to you. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Whiz Date: 23 Apr 00 - 02:39 PM I never quit drinking but I did stop cigarettes after 30+years. Notice I said stop not quit. I deceided I was not smoking today. Every day I remind myself I'm not smoking today. The approach is one day at a time. That was 10 years ago. I still haven't quit smoking I'm just not smoking today. It worked for me for cigarettes it might work for you for alcohol. It's worth a try. Good luck today. Whiz |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Whiz Date: 23 Apr 00 - 02:39 PM I never quit drinking but I did stop cigarettes after 30+years. Notice I said stop not quit. I deceided I was not smoking today. Every day I remind myself I'm not smoking today. The approach is one day at a time. That was 10 years ago. I still haven't quit smoking I'm just not smoking today. It worked for me for cigarettes it might work for you for alcohol. It's worth a try. Good luck today. Whiz |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:35 PM Alcoholics should not be persecuited but instead made to be the holy elect of our society. They should be provided with a life of guarded yet unlimited luxury. Until recently I had hoped I could reach that exalted position......regretfully my body would not permit it. I have all of the proper motivating factors but the genetics stand in the way IMHO. Drinking is given to all men alcoholism to but a few. We need not make these gifted individuals outcasts. They have much to give society and one of their gifts is their own euphoria and ability to consume. It is the full enjoyment of the gifts of god. Only the imperfect can not reach their heights. They may not make good drivers, lovers, or parents but what the hay- those things are work- It is only work which gets in the way of the true alcoholic. We need to set them free of the social stigmas and provide them with the safe environments they deserve. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 24 Apr 00 - 11:04 AM Spirits were originally introduced for ceremonial purposes and quickly became abused. Their original usuage became forgotten. They were employed to bring about a kind of exalted experience during special rare occasions. Alcoholics should be credited for: 1. Child and wife abuse 2. Reckless and dangerous driving habits DUI 3. Insulting demeanor and behavior to others 4. Irresponsible public displays 5. If performers, blatant disregard for the audience 6. Instigating barroom brawls 7. Disregard for the feelings of other people 8. Corrupting and degrading influences on others 9. Self-destructive personal habits 10. Occasional dissheveled appearance 11. Prevarication and dissembling 12. Supporting the alcohol industry = organized crime 13. Advocating a gateway drug 14. Working in tandem with tobacco users 15. Fostering the myth that alcohol is good for you. 16. Fostering the myth that good works can't be done without it. I think that they should have a special place...... How about the Betty Ford Clinic and AA, both organizations that are doing a wonderful job. Frank
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) Date: 24 Apr 00 - 03:50 PM 1. Child and wife abuse Why should alcoholics have to put up with women and children- what a drag! That is abuse of the alcoholic! 2. Reckless and dangerous driving habits DUI Why in the world should an alcholic ever have to drive? Of course they should be driven. In a limmo with a bar if at all possible. And they should never be driven to a "dry place" 3. Insulting demeanor and behavior to others Alcoholics should be respected in all instances as would any other "special Person" I have seen quite a few seat wetting and drooling senior citizens who yell at the top of their lungs - but they we must worship! The same with alcoholics. Just learn to be tolerant. 4. Irresponsible public displays Re read 3- remember we do not need to force alcoholics to leave their palaces but we make them live in the streets. 5. If performers, blatant disregard for the audience I have seen perfectly respectible tea totaling performers respect the audience and often. One of the greatist sins is for these tea totalers to always use electronic amplification even in small spaces. IMHO an instance of number 4 above. And there are other sins to many to count. 6. Instigating barroom brawls The last barroom brawl I saw was conducted by sober folk. 7. Disregard for the feelings of other people Alcoholics are not people - they are the elect! Again see 5 above. It is infact a gross disregard not to join the alcholic in rounds- a lack of reciprocity and hospitaltiy.... 8. Corrupting and degrading influences on others dont make me laugh! nothing good about sugar dependancy! 9. Self-destructive personal habits Only god gives life and the same takes it away. by virtue of life all personal habits are self destructive. Who are you some sort of imortal? 10. Occasional dissheveled appearance I have seen wonderful dishevelment upon very dry and teatotaling school teachers.....you must be nuts! 11. Prevarication and dissembling 12. Supporting the alcohol industry = organized crime 13. Advocating a gateway drug 14. Working in tandem with tobacco users 15. Fostering the myth that alcohol is good for you. 16. Fostering the myth that good works can't be done without it. I will not respond to 11-16 except to say that many of the most wonderful artists and musicians and people of this world have been alcholics and many of the worst have been tea totalers. Get a life- beter yet- get a drnk! Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Ed Pellow Date: 24 Apr 00 - 04:12 PM Conrad, Alcoholism leads to an enourmous amount of misery, both to the drinker and those close to him / her I'm not sure why you've responded in this way - but if you'd seen the misery first hand - you may well have posted differently. Regards Ed |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Peter T. Date: 24 Apr 00 - 05:27 PM Just a note about AA: Gregory Bateson wrote an interesting piece some years ago in his book on the "Ecology of Mind" where he pointed out that one of the reasons why AA works (and there is a mountain of evidence that it does) is that it faces the issue of control uniquely. The idea is that until you let go of focussing on personal egostrength, you cannot let the larger forces of balance work. It is trying to fight it alone with willpower that boxes in some people. The paradox is: "I am out of control; I need a drink to steady my nerves to get control of myself". He likens it to a highwire artist with one of those long horizontal balancing poles. If the highwire artist tries to keep the pole absolutely horizontal as he walks, then the momentum moves to the highwire itself, which swings in larger and larger arcs, eventually spilling the person over, because he was too tightly focussed on inappropriately narrowed control. It is only in the context of the larger system (sometimes referred to as "the higher power") that real balance can be achieved. Bateson notes that this sometimes has nothing to do with God: sometimes it is just reconnecting to other people in your life who can help you normalize, widen out the narrow unbalancing focus. He once said that he thought the AA phrase should have been "larger power" so as to get away from the idea of God, and accentuate the movement away from personal punishment and control. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) Date: 24 Apr 00 - 05:31 PM I do not think alcoholics would have such a time in this life as they do if people would not be so mean to them. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: John Evans Date: 24 Apr 00 - 05:48 PM Conrad, If this thread is anything to go by - a lot more people offer support than are mean... Peter T, Wow! Someone who reads Gregory Bateson! I have to say I find some of his stuff hard going. I have read the piece in 'Steps' that you mention - but I still started this thread... Mind you, in what he says about 'the pattern that connects' I can only say, yes - he's right.... John
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: The Beanster Date: 25 Apr 00 - 01:33 AM Thanks, Peter T., for that explanation. Abstract as it is, it made me understand more clearly the philosophy behind the "higher" or "larger" power idea. I don't know if the folks directly involved with AA are aware of this interpretation but it's too bad that this perspective is not more well known among the general public who may be seeking help with alcohol addiction and are scared off by the obvious religious implications contained in that "higher power" phrase. Maybe they should have used some phrase like "universal balance" or something...words with less baggage attached. But again, thanks--learn something new every day! |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: MAG (inactive) Date: 25 Apr 00 - 12:16 PM bill Wilson of AA is the closest thing to a true saint and true mystic America has produced. His thinking was that alcoholics ARE gifted people who constantly short-circuit their creativity with alcohol instead of using it the right way. There is an excellent history of AA which goes into it, and a new biography which I haven't yet read. Conrad is a famous woman-basher and bar-promoter on another discussion group to which we both belong. |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Peter T. Date: 25 Apr 00 - 03:34 PM Beanster/John, I use this article all the time in environmental studies: "environment" is another pretty good term for larger context. Our planetary situation is one in which we have developed extraordinary powers of local so-called "rational" control over our own practices, but on the larger scale it can be seen that this "control model" is driving the planet crazy, into wild swings, simply because we are unwilling to give up this need to dominate and rationalise, and recognise that we are within the larger natural world, which works according to quite different "larger" principles. yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Middle Ground Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:01 PM It seems to me that there are too many extreme perspectives surrounding this thread. I drank to excess from 15-22...quite a lot. I decided on my own to stop. For a brief time a friend convinced me to go to 12-step. I think there are good things about these programs, but that they are only for some people. I also found alot of unhealthy, unhappy people who had been clean and in the program for a long time. And who also did not tolerate other viewpoints. Many times I was told that if I questioned aspects of the program...it was "my disease talking". I was pretty self aware at that point, and did not agree with that sentiment. I stopped going to 12-step and decided to see a counselor. I went to a life counselor and spent alot of time maturing and learning how to enjoy life without substances. After being abstinent for 11 years, my counselor suggested that I wasn't an alcoholic and that I might be ready to try moderate drinking. I did, and have been doing well ever since. I don't drink everyday and I limit the amount I drink because I like to feel good. And being drunk and hungover dont feel good. I now have many friends who drink responsibly or not at all. I don't hang out with people who are drunks. For me, it was about maturing and learning to take personal responsibilty for my actions. I'm glad I took the time off from drinking, and I would do it again if it ever became a problem again. Food, alcohol, drugs, skiing, jogging, etc....all can kill you if used in excess, but they are pleasurable if used in *moderation*....and they can be used in moderation... To the original poster....if you cannot stop, get help, it's out there. In fact, it would probably be a good idea to stop for some time, and work on the underlying problems that are contributing to your drinking. But look carefully at all the different options for getting help. 12-step may work for you but it is not the only way...and every person is different, and different people need different strategies for overcoming problems. Check out the Stanton Peele site for alternative viewpoints to 12-step groups....
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: John in Brisbane Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:29 PM I've been there and I'm thankful that I've been able to claw my way out. My Mudcat activities have been one of my successful strategies to get me clean and keep me going. Thanks to all who have helped along the road. I'm only a personal message away if anyone else needs help. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Toad Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:48 AM This is a very worthy thread. I'm not against people who have a few drinks but I do find it interesting that some one had the naiveness to say "What has this to do with music." I can't imagine a musician anywhere who's life hasn't been dramatically touched by alcoholisim, not to mention drugs. Hats off to you all. I think that Threadie is a little to defensive. Sincerely, Toad |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:50 AM I think that every question regardless of it's intent deserves an answer. 1. Since woman and children are anathema to alcoholics, it is reasonable to assume that alcoholics show no respect for their origins. 2. Alcoholics who drive do not like to assume responsibilty for their actions. Lack of personal responsibility is a hallmark of this disease. 3. Alcoholics should be respected as people but their actions should not be tolerated or condoned. I think the same could be said for murderers, robbers and criminals. I will go with the fact that alcoholism is a sickness, a disease and is often uncontrollable until help is seeked. Even those that defend alcoholism are in dire need of professional help. 4. It might be a good idea for some alcoholics to be incarcerated for a period of time until they are restored to sanity. 5. It's not a good idea to generalize about performer behavior toward an audience, but I've rarely seen a drunken performer who has done a great show with respect for their audiences. There is an abuse of sound reinforcement at times on the part of many performers but this is a different topic. 6. Barroom brawls involve alcohol. There is no other reason for them to take place. 7. The alcoholic often drinks with others to keep from having meaningful relationships. It is a psuedo intimacy that is in lieu of real human contact. There is a certain supercillious attitude that accompanies this disease which makes them fly at the wrong altitude. 8. Sugar dependency is a problem. The alcoholic is often addicted to sugar. It's easy to transfer addictions. 9. To blame alcohol addiction on "God" is an often used as a defensive ploy. It reinforces the inability to take responsibility for alcoholic actions. 10. Dishevelment is particularly ugly on a drunk. It is accompanied by foul odors, misplaced anger and can be likened to a diseased person who has refused medical help. There are many artists who are wonderful regardless of their disease. But I believe that this has little do do with their wonderfulness. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Alcoholism From: Hyperabid Date: 26 Apr 00 - 12:23 PM Ooooh Drink and Drugs two such emotive subjects that on the whole needn't be. If it's fun or just plain funny and it deosn't harm anybody else then it is okay - EVEN if other people think it is harming you! Most people in their younger years choose to do things that their family now refuse to admit that they did when they were young. Some choose to continue into middle or even old age. No matter how often poeple tell you they have there is no way for them to have a common frame of reference to your particular use of any particular substance. It's entriely personal. If you think any one thing is taking too firm a hold in your life stop it for one month. If you can't seek help to do so. Some things I am certain of... Prohibition endangers lives by handing substance provision to criminals. Censure drives people towards behaviours such as secrecy that can turn them into addicts. People will seek altered states of consciousness whether it be through exercise - mental or physical or substance use - no matter what others say, think or do. Any other world view is simply naive. I am interested to hear the religeous right promote virginity as a cure for AIDS. Fill a young mind up with the need to grow and explore then wait until it reaches a stage where sexual drive is probably only exceeded by curiosity - then stifle it! I am awed by such creative thinking - NOT! Society's attitudes are as much guilty of creating subtancew abuse as the victim is. Addicts are medically unwell they are NOT criminals! My £0 0s 0d... Hyp.
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