BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido

Subject: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

I'd like to share this article with anyone who is interested in understanding / improving the quality of discourse on this forum. Humor: A Veil for Verbal Violence Here's a quote:

Speech-attacks, like any other form of aggressive behavior, imply both a victim and a perpetrator. Philosophically speaking, there is little difference between this form of hostile word-use and a physical attack. Aikido, in the larger sense, concerns itself with identification and neutralization of both these types of aggression.

While practicing Aikido on the mat, we learn to recognize and harmonize with an opponent's attack in such a way as to avoid any harm to ourselves, and wherever possible, to avoid injuring the attacker. Aikido is, in this way, a self-defense which implies neither victory nor defeat. the terms "victory" and "defeat" belong to the field of competition and are operative where conflict of interest exists.

Aikido does not deal with reality in a mutually exclusive, dualistic manner. To define Aikido as "the art of no-defeat" is not a mere semantic game. We, as speakers of the English language and, consequently, children of Aristotelian thought, are accustomed to viewing the phenomenal world in terms of polar opposites, ie., "good-evil," "plus-minus," "off-on," etc. The power of this procedural mode has been dramatically demonstrated by man's vast attainments in the fields of science and technology which are based on the scientific method.

Nonetheless, there are many areas in which this method of perceiving reality is inappropriate, inefficient, and tension-producing. there are aspects of interpersonal relationships, for example, where viewing things in a binary, "either-or" fashion can defeat communication and perpetuate conflict.

It is so disappointing and distracting to watch interesting and potentially fruitful discussions turn into slug-fests. It's easy to point the finger at anonymous GUESTS who post here only to flame or troll, but just as often these fights are initiated and dragged out by the veteran members themselves.

[Edited at Daylia's request. --JoeClone]

In the 20 months I've been posting on Mudcat it's become a lot easier to act instead of react, to ignore the usual offenders, let the insults slide off my back, to remain civil and friendly ... even to find reasons for compassion. Applying the principles of Verbal Aikido brings relief and facilitates the desired behavior modication. I did not post them here to "preach" at anyone, but in the hope that someone else might find them as helpful and interesting as I have.

If anyone here practices Aikido in any form, I'd love to hear about your first-hand experiences with it! And thanks for the opportunity to share my concerns and my hopes here.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:33 AM

daylia:

A good idea for a thread, but like mine on non-partisan political comments, I doubt if it will be treated in a serious manner.



"Nonetheless, there are many areas in which this method of perceiving reality is inappropriate, inefficient, and tension-producing. there are aspects of interpersonal relationships, for example, where viewing things in a binary, "either-or" fashion can defeat communication and perpetuate conflict. "

A true statement, but it implies a level of maturity/understanding that may be beyound the reach of many of us ( myself included) here.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

This arrived on my computer under the heading:

!!!!!!!!!!!ANGER MANAGEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you occasionally have a really bad day, and you just need to take it out on someone, don't take it out on someone you know, take it out on someone you don't know.

It all started one day when I was sitting at my desk and remembered a phone call I had forgotten to make. I found the number and dialed. A man answered, saying, "Hello." I politely said, "This is Chris. May I please speak with Robin Carter?" Suddenly, the phone was slammed down on me.

I couldn't believe that anyone could be so rude. I tracked down Robin's correct number and called her. I had transposed the last two digits of her phone number. After hanging up with her, I decided to call the "wrong" number again. When the same guy answered the phone, I yelled, "You're an asshole!" and hung up.

I wrote his number down with the word "asshole" next to it, and put it in my drawer. Every couple of weeks, when I was paying bills or had a really bad day, I'd call him up and yell, "You're an asshole!" It always cheered me up.

When Caller ID came to our area, I thought my therapeutic "asshole" calling would have to stop. So, I called his number and said, "Hi, this is John Smith from the Telephone Company. I'm just calling to see if you're interested in the Caller ID program?" He yelled, "NO!" and slammed the phone down. I quickly called him back and said, "That's because you're an asshole!"

One day I was at the store, getting ready to pull into a parking spot. Some guy in a black BMW cut me off and pulled into the spot I had patiently waited for. I hit the horn and yelled that I had been waiting for the spot.

The idiot ignored me. I noticed a "For Sale" sign in his car window, so I wrote down his number. A couple of days later, right after calling the first asshole, (I had his number on speed dial), I thought I had better call the BMW asshole, too.

I said, "Is this the man with the black BMW for sale?"

"Yes, it is."

"Can you tell me where I can see it?"

"Yes, I live at 1802 West Main Street. It's a yellow house, and the car's parked right out in front."

"What's your name?" I asked.

"My name is Don Hansen," he said.

"When's a good time to catch you, Don?"

I am home every evening after five."

"Listen, Don, can I tell you something?"

"Yes?"

"Don, you're an asshole."

Then I hung up, and added his number to my speed dial, too. Now, when I had a problem, I had two assholes to call.

But after several months of calling them, it wasn't as enjoyable as it used to be. So, I came up with an idea. I called Asshole #1.

"Hello."

"You're an asshole!" (But I didn't hang up.)

"Are you still there?" he asked.

"Yeah," I said.

"Stop calling me," he screamed.

"Make me," I said.

"Who are you?" he asked.

"My name is Don Hansen."

"Yeah? Where do you live?"

"Asshole, I live at 1802 West Main Street, a yellow house, with my black Beamer parked in front."

He said, "I'm coming over right now, Don. And you had better start saying your prayers."

I said, "Yeah, like I'm really scared, asshole."

Then I called Asshole #2.

"Hello?" he said.

"Hello, asshole," I said.

He yelled, "If I ever find out who you are!"

"You'll what?" I said.

"I'll kick your ass," he exclaimed.

I answered, "Well, asshole, here's your chance. I'm coming over right now."

Then I hung up and immediately called the police, saying that I lived at 1802 West Main Street, and that I was on my way over there to kill my gay lover.

Then I called Channel 3 News about the gang war going down on West Main Street. I quickly got into my car and headed over to Main Street. There I saw two assholes beating the crap out of each other in front of six squad cars, a police helicopter, and a news crew.

NOW, I feel better. Anger management really works!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

The only useful purpose in annoying an opponent is if this is a means of weakening them.   People seem to ignore that basic principle constantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

"What does not kill me only makes me stronger"

Nietzsche.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

One problem is that what is considered violent communication in one culture can be politically correct in another.

I'm flamed regularly for using the communication skills drilled into me during the "I-messages" phase of communication-style trends. Or to say it so certain folks don't take it the wrong way, "One can be flamed regularly for relying on the communication skills drilled into one during any particular phase of communication-style trends."

Whaddayagonna do? Can't please everybody, or mind-read in advance what anyone might prefer. Has to be worked out in relayshunship.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:41 AM

It is interesting that one of the most insulting personal attacks ever leveled at me on this forum came from the person who started this thread...
and for a change, it was utterly undeserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM

Funny, I have never had any asperity from the author of the remarks Daylia quotes. So I am moved to wonder why? Maybe it is not the authors inherent nastiness, as Daylia would like us to infer; maybe it's what used to be called a personal;ity conflict, two incompatible ways of being.

In which case, an agreement to mutual ignoral might be in order.

But it is--speaking of verbal Akido -- no less an attack just because Dayli quotes them without attribution, because most folks here know who says what.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:26 AM

Didn't even open the Science and New Age thread---not a scientist and the only thing I could contribute to a New Age discussion would be rather pointed jokes, which really wouldn't bring much enlightenment. Still haven't opened the thread--looks rather daunting. Why do people post on a subject which won't change the world drastically in the near future ( in contrast to the US election, for instance) just to make personal attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM

I remember that, Peg. It was during the first couple months after I joined the Mudcat, when I was still a newbie to computers and had next to no experience on the internet. As I recall, the fight was about Pres Bush reading from the Bible after the astronauts were killed in the shuttle disaster. I had perceived your comments as a vehement attack on Christianity itself , and assumed that you were one of those disgruntled ex-Christian "new-ager" types I've found it quite a challenge to be around in the past. It was only after this misperception had escalated into a slugfest that I recognized the source of our "problem" as cultural - ie the differences between your environment and mine.

That fight was a great example of WYSISYG's observation above.

WHere I live, fundamentalist Christianity is not now nor has it ever been a social /political issue. For example, if the Prime Minister were to include a verse from the Bible in a public address, as a measure of condolence in response to a national tragedy, I doubt it would occur to anyone to perceive this as a covert political maneover.

When I'd learned more about the very different situation where you live and "walked a mile in your moccasins", I realized that if I were in your position I would most likely be sharing your concerns, angers and fears - not arguing with you! But by that time, pride and ego had become involved to such an extent I doubt you would have accepted an olive branch even if I could have offered you one.

I cannot undo the past, but I can change the present. I am dead serious about the "behavior modication" I spoke of in my first post. What does not kill me only makes me stronger ... and hopefully, wiser and more loving too. Thanks for that, and for your input on anger management too Foolestroupe. :-)

The only useful purpose in annoying an opponent is if this is a means of weakening them.

Yes. And especially when the topic of discussion includes the "spiritual", what better way to weaken your "opponents" than by attempting to evoke the least desirable of human character traits - anger, hate, violence etc - from them!

According to the principles of Verbal Aikido, one way around this is to practice choosing a different perspective. To stop thinking of the situation as either/or win/lose. To practice the and/or "your approach is different but complementary to mine" perspective instead. To find non-injurious ways of presenting and supporting your alternative or conflicting points of view. I do like this approach, and it does seem to help.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:10 AM

Daylia, I'm not convinced you are making such an effort to change. You have quoted another Catter to use as an example of the behavior modification you're preaching about, and humiliated him/her in the process.

Just because you didn't compose a nasty, rhyming, childish poem about them (as you did me) doesn't make your current methods any less insulting.

Being new to the internet is no excuse for making up nasty rhymes about people and reciting them in public--I mean, didn't you learn about that in the schoolyard?

I have seen this on the 'Net before--people try to make up for their past behavior by demonizing that behavior in others, instead of just owning what they've done and acknowledging it for what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:13 AM

But it is--speaking of verbal Akido -- no less an attack just because Dayli quotes them without attribution, because most folks here know who says what.

Good insight, Amos. Ooooo I just wanna haul off and slug you one for that!   ;-)

While I posted those remarks as the most recent example of a situation that could have been avoided by practicing verbal Aikido, I suppose it could be a form of "attack" too. Emotions are still fresh.

*sigh*

In that case, it would probably be best just to delete the series of remarks from my first post, as well as the one sentence preceeding them. I was hoping to put out some useful ideas and generate some dialogue here, not to instigate another slugfest.

So please, ye Joe Clones, I hereby request the stated deletion.


Maybe it is not the authors inherent nastiness, as Daylia would like us to infer; maybe it's what used to be called a personal;ity conflict, two incompatible ways of being.

Personality conflict, maybe. I think compatability is largely dependent on perception and effort - so I'm not giving up hope.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:15 AM

Here's a quarter, daylia... go call somebody and see if they'll send you a whhhhhaaaaaambulance...

Poor widdwe muffin... somebody said something YOU didn't like... awwwww...

While yer ordering that whhhhaaambulance, you'd better call someone to come build you a bridge so you can get over it...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM

I've never studied Aikido, but I did briefly study martial arts. It's the whole Yin/Yang thing vs. the western "equal and opposite reation." When someone pushes, you can push back, or you can let their energy flow through and past you. You can USE their energy, or you can let it dissipate.

I've come to see the need to energetically "push back" as a weakness. It's someone else controlling my feelings, what I say and how I say it. Aikido, and most martial arts, is based on maintaining your own balance while making (or simply letting) your opponent lose theirs. It's a lot more likely you'll lose your balance if you stand rigid and take a direct hit. Better to simply move out of the way or let the energy spin you in a direction you want to go.

I don't know if it's just me, but the world seems to be filling up with mentally brittle people who are firmly embedded in their philisophical soil like dry, dead trees. When a good strong wind hits, they break.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM

As can be seen, there are those who are threatened by any discussion that might remove the only arguement that they are capable of using.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:22 AM

Well Peg, making up childish little poems is a tension release for some of us, just like using a string of   &!!##$$((&n

The %%$$!###@** approach has never appealed to me, and I know I've chosen the stupid poetry option before - a type of "Humor: a Veil for Verbal Violence".

I cannot change the past or anyone else's behavior but my own. I've put myself "on notice" here in front of you all for a reason - and Time will tell.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:23 AM

LOL Clinton!   :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peg
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:36 AM

Try herbal tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:40 AM

What kind do you like?

I've tried a "good mood" blend with St John's wart, lavender flowers, sage leaf, bergamot, rose petals etc and hey - it might be the "placebo effect" but it does seem to take the edge off.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:49 PM

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion. Aikido is a method of fighting, and before getting too spiritual about it all, (the meditation and 'spirituality' aspect of the martial arts that many people groove to), please remember that the purpose of martial arts is to end fights by

1) not engaging in the fight
2) avoiding the fight
3) escaping from the fight         or
4) laying a real shit kicking on the attacker(s)

If you continue to parry or avoid without leaving, eventually you will be hurt. There is a point after which patience and tolerance becomes indulgence and stupidity. That point is different for all people.

I don't know a heckuva lot about akaido--other than it is a neat fighting style (see the movies of Steven Seagal). But I do know something of wing chun, and the principles are 'similar'. Basically, if you don't want a fight, attack the behaviour or the post, not the person. But don't ever expect to attack the person with impunity. Not too many people have the will or desire to be attacked personally on the internet or in life. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:18 PM

There's something about e-mail and forums such as this that can bring out the worst in people. It's been happening for years. Emoticons were invented to try to take the edge off satirical exchanges. The best, the only good, response is to keep it all at arms length.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

TOUCHE





TOUCHE





TOUCHE

so what's next????

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:39 PM

I Aikido'd for several years. Since it doesn't depend on strrength, I thought it would be something I could do when I got old. The joke's on me. Got as far as brown belt and developed an inner ear problem, which makes it hard to pivot or roll without puking.

Too bad; bouncing around on the mats was as much fun as playing in my grandfather's hayloft. And it's fun to watch.

Aikido is more a point of view than a series of techniques. My sensei said that there are several thousand aikido techniques, but "there's really only one."

Mostly the techniques involve evasion and redirecting the bad guy, using throws and joint locks to damage him as little as possible, but the technique for dealing with the bad guy who attacks you across the corner of the bar is to block his blow and punch him off his barstool.

I keep telling myself that I should be better at verbal aikido. It seems to be harder for me to do it in writing than face to face. Words alone are not a good medium for me, and I'm afraid I sound more hostile and dogmatic than I mean to.

Ah well...

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:47 PM

PS--

One of the things I like about Aikido is you can't have tournaments because it's all defense; there are no attacks. The contestants would just have to stand there and look at each other.

clint

& if there are any martial arts pedants out there, I know about Tomiki Aikido. Don't get me started.

ck

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:41 PM

Within the discipline Aikido you would never purposely start a fight or place yourself in the situation where people are likely to start fighting you. I am afraid you failed at the first hurdle, Daylia. I am not saying this fram a nasty or hurtful point of view. I hope you take it as constructive critisism. Feel free to defend yourself on the principles suggested but it is a bit silly to quote Aikido principles in a pre-emptive attack.

And yes, I have studied Aikido in a small way. Didn't suit me but none of the Japanese arts ever have. Too rigid for my liking:-( If you realy want to apply martial principles to discourse try one of the internal arts instead. Tai Chi is a good start but Ba Gua and Xing-Yi will help deepen your understanding. As a fist step however I would recommend skipping the martial side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(Not quite Sifu but hoping to get there eventualy...)

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:42 PM

Martial arts? None of them can match the ancient Lancashire martial art of Ecky-Thump...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:50 PM

Or remember the Python book (Brand new Monty Python Bok???) with the ancient Welsh art of Llap Goch? That was attack anyone before they attack you come to think of it...

Ecky-Thump involved back puddings didn't it?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

That's really interesting, Clint - thanks! All defense, no attacks ... hmmm. You must have practiced how to knock that guy off his bar stool though - or is Aikido mostly kata.

Ditto about sounding more hostile or one-sided than intended. I agree with mack - there does seem to be something about the net that can bring out the worst in people. Could be the almost instantaneous speed of messaging PLUS the anonymity, the emotional implications of "wearing a mask".

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:11 PM

Dave, I knew nothing about Aikido principles except what I'd read a while ago in the article I posted. Thanks to you, brucie, Clint etc I know a lot more by the hour - and I'm liking it more every minute!

I have been practicing basic Qigong exercises, including Ba Duan Jin for about a year now. And yes - there does seem to be far fewer "good reasons" to fight these days! I really enjoy the Qigong - it relieves tension and stress, improves breathing and flexibility, increases vitality, works well with meditation and with the Huna energetic techniques I practice (Huna uses deep breathing as well). I've never heard of Ba Gua or Xing Ti.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:44 PM

There's no real kata in Aikido, in the sense of the one-person dance. Mostly one person makes a predetermined attack -- wrist grasp, straight punch, whatever--and the other person uses the technique of the day to foil him.

So attacks are indeed taught in order to properly learn the defenses; it's attacking pre-emptively that's forbidden.

For the tests there are a number of prescribed techniques you must know, and a free period in which you are attacked in any way the opponent likes, and you defend as you like. You do the technique, but you, say, bend the elbow forward instead of backward, for instance. (And you only knock the guy off the bar stool after he's pulled the knife.)

I must agree with Dave the Gnome: the only thing I don't like about Aikido is that it's so damn Japanese. Formality, bushido, and all that. (insert grin). But it was the only internal art in town.

I'd have preferred Ba Gua, partly because it does have kata of a sort, but I've only been able to get to is a seminar in Seattleand a week's camp on Kootenai Lake. Ba Gua 101.

But Qi Gong is more accessible and more easily learned from a book or tape.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM

I practice Martial Arts too. I do a little Ba Da Bing and a little Ba Da Boom, you know, fuhgeddaboudit!

Okay, so that was humor, but was it verbal violence? MAYBE, as it could be read to belittle daylia's point. That wasn't the intention, daylia.

On thing that's unfortunate about this thread is with the deletions and allusions to previous insults, I don't know what half the posts are about...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

It appears from the comments in this thread that the event of my DSL connection being out has spared my seeing my own words edited out of their original context, put back into play with an intentionally nasty spin, and posted here in an attempt to pre-emptively win a new verbal battle. I still don't have the high-speed connection, so will slog along on dial up to make these few remarks before going back to my weekend chores.

I recognize the "verbal violence--verbal aikido" line from an article daylia posted on another thread as a way to somehow imply that I was responsible for her bad behavior. So I must assume I was the target of this thread, however much the originator might plead an interest in altruism.

I have never initiated a thread here to start or to continue an argument. My thanks to whichever clone went ahead and removed the remarks that were so ungenerously posted by daylia. Judging from the reactions here, she got more carried away than usual.

My reaction to all of this? Given time to think, I'd say that daylia is lucky I didn't see it. When I am actually angry (and that doesn't happen often), I have been known to pull out the double-sharp words and compose a response that, when read by those who don't know any better, sounds like a mere rebuttal, but to those with the intellectual capacity for puns and double entendre, is a series of pointed and usually funny insults. Those kinds of responses take time to craft, usually shred the target, but never really serve anyone's best interest and they're in the long run a waste of time. It's overkill--the bazooka to swat the mosquito syndrome.

Now I'm going to mow my lawn before the local mosquitoes get to be a nuisance. I don't think the DSL is going to be up until late Sunday at the earliest, so I'll just have to see what evolves here at a later date. It would be nice, however, if this thread were to slip below the line and go away.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM

The plot thickens...and I STILL wish I knew what was going on!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM

Surely there is a difference between being "flamed" and having someone disagree vehemently with one's view? Being told off when I have gone too far or have made a flippant or insensitive statement goes with the territory.

People here have disagreed with me but that is only normal and to be expected. I have been wrong a time or two in my life and chances are I will be wrong at least one more time before I die. ;~) There may be times when I change my opinion due to someone's stating why I am wrong. And there may be times when someone disagrees with me that I remain convinced that I am right. I have never equated disagreement with being flamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:50 PM

Clint, the method of grading in Aikido sounds a lot like Jiu Jitsu (the only Japanese martial art in my immediate vicinity). Kata is an important element of Jiu Jitsu, though. It was my kid's least favorite aspect, although I enjoyed it; maybe appreciation for kata develops with age.

Oh and BTW - I did learn Zhan Zhuang Qigong and Ba Duan Jin   
(The Eight Fine Exercises, or the Eight Strands of the Brocade) from a book, almost identical to the pages at the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:38 PM

Aikido is a lot like jiu jitsu. Less strength, more ki (chi, qi) than in Jiu jitsu. Whatever "ki" is.

Similar words, whole different tunes, as it were.

I can't remember kata unless there's a story that goes with it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:06 PM

Kata with a story ... sounds like Tai Chi!

Chi, or ki (also qi) means life-force energy. From the Zhan Zhuang Qigong article;

Qigong means "an exercise to develop chi, (also spelled qi) "the energy of life." This particular form of qigong, Zhan Zhuang, is about four thousand years old, and is used from everything from building strength for martial arts to self-healing, lowering blood pressure, increasing respiration and alertness, reducing stress and pain, and improving health and energy overall.

Zhan Zhuang means "standing like a tree," aptly called, because all the Zhan Zhuang postures are performed standing, in utter motionlessness.


Now Verbal Zhan Zhuang Qigong would be, I suppose, "talking like a tree".

Hmmmm. Sounds like an interesting solution for "verbal violence".

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:24 PM

I have studied kendo for over 20 years now and I still teach.

Aikido, kendo, judo are both 'do' forms. The 'do' means way. By a way they mean a method of self improvement.

The purpose of studying a 'do' form of martial art is not to inflict injury on a person, it is a method of using action to train ones mind where one has an opponent. The ideal being that one ends up with an ability to assess a situation and react to it in a calm manner. If you are defeated then you learn to accept it calmy.

The 'do' forms were developed from the 'justu' forms which do have a much more martial connotation. Kenjutsu was the method of training a swordsman to use a sword with total efficiency or fear.

Aikijutsi was a mothod of unarmed combat as non samurai were not allowed to use swords. One hears the term ronin, masterless samurai, who often acted as bandits. Non samurai needed to develop a method of non armed self defence against these people, using either their hands or farm tools. That is why today you still see bokken (wooden swords) used in kata.

Yes there is a lot of spirituality in studying a 'do' or 'jutsu' form, but generally that comes later when one has developed the basic techniques which take you up to the 'dan' grades (black belts)Even the first three dan grades in kendo are still mostly the studying of techniques. It is from fourth dan and above that you start to get an insite to the way of training your mind not to think but to react to an opponents movements. Using mentally intimidating techniques such as covering the opponents eye not his throat with a sword in the middle guard position. Attacking the slightest weakness or opening.

All martial arts make use of kata. A kata is a method of studying a technique, breaking it down into component parts. In kendo we always have an opponent. It is the duty of the senior to lead the junior through a kata. Even though the swords are wooden a blow can be injurous.

In kenjutsu and kendo the kata's are choreographed, but the basic precept is to make a person use a sword as an extension of his body not something you are just holding. Increased study of kata in kendo allows you to learn to use techniques without thinking. Much as a musician does who studies scales and arpegio's.

I have also done live blade kata which adds a certain extra to the practice. In kata the cuts are stopped just short agin training the person in the use of the sword.

Much has been written good and bad over the years about the philosphy of martial arts. To take that deep philisophy and apply it to the purpose of verbal violance is not a good one.

Good practionioners of a martial art are not wooses but neither do they bully. Those that do do not last long in the martial arts.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:26 PM

I've seen definitions of chi, and I suppose I can use it to some extent, but I don't know if it's an entity on its own or a combination of other things. Calling it "intrinsic energy," as some do, doesn't mean anything to me.

But in Aikido using your (muscular) strength for a technique is a fault. Using more than is needed to stand up and move around, anyway. Have an Aikidoist show you the Immovable Arm if you can.

clint

Verbal Zhan Zhuang Qigong: Ent Fu

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:29 PM

Sorry left something out.

Martial artists (good ones) always respect their opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

Understand your enemy as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:33 PM

Understand your enemy IS yourself.



sorry; couldn't resist.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:38 PM

I have dabbled a bit in the martial arts in a few practical ways over the years, but it was mostly 'book research', as I have always been more of an intellectual than a physical sort of person. I did take advantage of The Australian Academy of Tai Chi who conducted a voluntary workshop thru my work place. I don't know what 'family' their art is - but when I had the opportunity to try some Chen, I was absolutely blown away over just how much more aggressive that style was!

But it was when I had the opportunity to do a couple of Escrima seminars with Cacao Canette (the 12 angles method) who came out in his old age to tour Australia, that my mind was opened, and I became 'enlightened'. It was the most amazing physically aggressive, yet mentally calming thing I had done.

The art, which he had a strong development input into from a traditional history, had elements of Tai Chi, Akido, and many others which he had studied. It is, as far as I know, the only Martial system which starts you off with weapons (with perhaps the exception of the related art of Kali which uses metal weapons instead of rattan sticks), and then you naturally realise that you can fight unarmed, even against armed opponents without much further specialised training. The secret is that from the beginning, you study angles of attack and corresponding modes of defence as the primary thing - the weapons themselves then become irrelevant to the techniques. The fastest way between two points is a circle. The basic training involves being able to fight from lying down on the floor and continue to fight while standing up. The speed at which he takes you into the techniques is truly astonishing!

When I attended his second seminar, he insisted that I stand with 'The Advanced Students' who had been studying for years! The katas that we did were absolutely amazing. The First - done with three players, involved 6 attackers, and started out with a defensive move over the head to fend off the attack aimed at one's back. When one cycle was finished, the three rotated, and thus one full cycle was 3 times thru, doing all the various attacks & defences (using all 12 angles!)! The other katas were so much more complex, that I cannot remember the details, as life took me away from being able to carry on with the practise, and I can't find anyone local to keep up with it.

The style also includes the 'espada et daga', which is traced back to the Spanish C15 Sword and Dagger techniques, from when they invaded the 'East Indies'. I became totally unperturbed by the fact that we were going full speed, full strength blows, fractions of an inch past one's head and body without any fear of being hurt, so confident did one become of anticipating the attacks and being capable of reflexively using the correct defence. The techniques are fairly common in Indonesia, and Cacao had been strongly instrumental in outlawing the 'fights to the death' done with hardwood sticks - in which he was acknowledged as having killed over 100. He finally said, "Enough is enough, this is wrong, there is no point". Incidentally, he also fought the Japanese during WWII - a truly interesting, but very humble guy - he didn't have to prove a thing!

I have always found that the absolute best in any field are truly wonderful human beings - it's only ever the second raters that need to order everybody around and demonstrate their 'pseudo-greatness' to everybody (including most especially thhemselves!).

Something to keep in mind and strive for.... ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:23 AM

I have just started Warriors Escrima, Robin and, yes, it's brilliant! Get a bit worried about the sticks whan whizzing about but I will soon get the knack. Or end up with a few bruises...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

Robin, Sensei Shanghaiceltic - WOW I feel like I've been at an all-day martial arts seminar just reading your posts. :-) I do appreciate your taking the time to post all this information and intriguing first-hand experience with the martial arts.

Increased study of kata in kendo allows you to learn to use techniques without thinking. Much as a musician does who studies scales and arpeggio's.

That's exactly how I tried to explain it to my kids. Still didn't seem to spark much enthusiasm.

Much has been written good and bad over the years about the philosphy of martial arts. To take that deep philisophy and apply it to the purpose of verbal violance is not a good one.

I'm wondering if you could please expand on your thoughts a bit, Sensei. I'm seeing several ways the philosophy/training of the martial arts might possibly be applied to "verbal violence". To quote a few of you:

When someone pushes, you can push back, or you can let their energy flow through and past you. You can USE their energy, or you can let it dissipate ... Aikido, and most martial arts, is based on maintaining your own balance while making (or simply letting) your opponent lose theirs. It's a lot more likely you'll lose your balance if you stand rigid and take a direct hit. Better to simply move out of the way or let the energy spin you in a direction you want to go.
(Interesting insights, Jeri - thank you very much!)

The secret is that from the beginning, you study angles of attack and corresponding modes of defence as the primary thing - the weapons themselves then become irrelevant to the techniques.

Understand your enemy as yourself ...

Understand your enemy IS yourself.
(I like that! Thanks Clint!)

Good practionioners of a martial art are not wooses but neither do they bully. Those that do do not last long in the martial arts.

The purpose of studying a 'do' form of martial art is not to inflict injury on a person; it is a method of using action to train ones mind where one has an opponent. The ideal being that one ends up with an ability to assess a situation and react to it in a calm manner. If you are defeated then you learn to accept it calmly.

... it's all defense; there are no attacks... it's attacking pre-emptively that's forbidden.

Mostly the techniques involve evasion and redirecting the bad guy .... to damage him as little as possible, but the technique for dealing with the bad guy who attacks you across the corner of the bar is to block his blow and punch him off his barstool.

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion. Aikido is a method of fighting, and before getting too spiritual about it all ... please remember that the purpose of martial arts is to end fights by
1) not engaging in the fight
2) avoiding the fight
3) escaping from the fight or
4) laying a real shit kicking on the attacker(s)


Certainly the emphasis in both the military and "softer" forms of the martial arts (such as Qigong) on the importance of building up one's own energy, conserving and using it wisely (only when necessary) could be applied to verbal exchanges as well. I'm wondering if it's because you know the purpose of the martial arts as being too aggressive or "military", Shanghaiceltic?

I've seen definitions of chi, and I suppose I can use it to some extent, but I don't know if it's an entity on its own or a combination of other things. Calling it "intrinsic energy," as some do, doesn't mean anything to me.

Well I haven't met too many Westerners who understand or accept the idea of "life force energy" easily. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think many of the martial arts themselves focus to any great extent on chi until the physical aspects (ie techniques, throws, blocks, holds etc) have been mastered.

I don't understand chi as an "entity on it's own", but rather as a subtle yet fundamental part of every human being's "anatomy". Without it, there'd be nothing to animate the "matter" than I am. I'd be nothing but a little pile of chemicals and a pool of water.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM

Many of the Chinese arts focus on the Chi before the physical aspects. Certain schools of Kung Fu will not teach the form until the pupil has shown mastery of his or her own spirit.

Probably quite sensible really. If the recruiting sergeant insisted that soldiers could manage their anger before they were given a gun we would probably all be better off:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:00 PM

I have never equated disagreement with being flamed.

I'd wholly agree there. But there is a difference between expressing disagreement, or responding in a highly critical way, and coming out with a stream of insults which are totally unrelated to the disagreement.   

Som people do seem to fall very easily into doing that kind of thing. And one of the results is that people who don't like that kind of thing can start to assume that disagreement can't be expressed in other ways, and that it should therefore be avoided, even at the risk of blandness.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM

One of my sensei in Japan had practiced kendo from the age of 6. He was 75 at the time he was teaching me, a splendid man all round.

He spent a lot of time teaching me to make an attack at the same time as the opponent began theirs. His point was that often a slightly weaker opponent would be thinking, thus slowing down slightly the timing of their attack. He taught me never to do defensive kendo as he felt it was empty.

I heard the same from another sensie who was part of the current Emporers bodyguards. He told me that they had to train to attack as to defend would mean that an attack could come through. He applied that thinking to his job as a bodyguard. If the situtation arises where you are forced to do something do not defend. Defence in their thinking is considered a negative thinking.

This type of technique was also taught in the old koryu (old school) known as Musen Ryu, musen = No Mind = no thinking no defence.

The early years of studying martial arts are mostly the study of technique. Once you have good technique then the philosphy starts to come in to help with the way you begin to understand how your mind should be working. Dont let the philosphy cloud the learning of kihon (basic techniques.

D T Suzuki published a very good book on Zen and the sword. I think it was published by Tuttle. Worth buying as the philosphy he expounded can be applied to all martial arts.

I am still reserved on the application of this to verbal abuse expect to maintain a calm mind. A few years ago the very old writings that appeared in Go Rin No Sho (Books of Five Rings) by Musashi Miyamoto were sort of high jacked for business people. It made a mint for the people who tried to apply his thinking (which was very obtuse at times) to business practise.

I see more application to the way you should learn music, performing without actually allowing thinking about it to slow you down and cause you to make mistakes in your playing.

Also the study of techniqes as a basis for good playing, learning patience, perseverance.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:00 PM

I suppose to add on to what many people have said I could add the following.

Shanghaiceltic aced a principle of many martial arts when he expressed that if you have to think about what you're gonna do, it's too late to do it. You are hit. It reminded me of something that happened in a class many years back. We were being taught some responses to grabs. One had to do with the arm/hand. Opponent grabs yer arm and pulls. The natural tendency is to try to pull back. Just as when someone grabs yer jacket or hair, etc. If you then pull back, the stronger will 'win' the tugging match. However, if you go with the grab--that is, step towards it and strike as you step, the person grabbing will let go as they fall. It allows a person of a diminuitive stature to damage a person who is substantially taller or bigger. But, that is not a 'natural' response, and application of the 'do' part of the art will allow a practitioner to overcome the natural inclination and become extremely effective with what the opponent will perceive as a counter attack (and it's nothing of the sort, it just looks that way).

My master drummed into us that it takes 5000 repetitions to make a 'move' your own. That is part of the purpose of katas, patterns, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:07 PM

Foolestroupe; That anger management message was great. Thank you for posting it.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM

Not so great if you were genuinely in need of the police and they had been called out to that debacle though?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:51 PM

"Good Humour is an Exaggeration and Distortion of Mundane Reality."

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:13 PM

Foolestroupe! What a great story!!! LOL!

I feel I should include this brief excerpt from something I said once quite innocently about our mutual pal, Spaw (Catspaw49), as it is somewhat in the spirit of this thread:

"...except of course for Spaw. He is an incompetent, simple-minded, concupiscient wretch. He is vague, obtuse, vulgar, and lacks discrimination. His attempts at what he thinks of as ribald humor are akin to the noisy wallowings of a dyspeptic hog in a cesspool, guaranteed to offend while perhaps amusing in some small peripheral way. He is silly, repetitive, pompous, licentious and vain. He bores more effectively than an auger. To peruse his inane ramblings is an experience similar to copulating with a dead porcupine, in that one suffers freqent annoying pain while attaining absolutely no personal satisfaction whatsoever. To call this man "human" in fact would be to stretch the term considerably beyond its usual compass into hitherto unglimpsed realms of sheer blundering idiocy that would have caused even the Three Stooges to feel a shuddering twinge of envy. In short, the man is a fool, a prat, a know nothing. He is the blither in blather, the riff of raff, the null of void. He makes Neil Young sound lucid! And that is why he is universally despised. It has nothing to do with the nude windsurfing incident at the marina. Nothing whatsoever."


Now to be more serious for a moment here...

I have noticed that it's very difficult to talk people into abandoning a toxic emotion they're dragging around with them, such as anger against a particular individual, due to a past incident. Nope, they'd rather stay angry forever. They've gotten used to it and they like it. They'd rather believe that the other person is incapable of ever changing, and then prove it by never changing themselves! Ha! This is funny. Well, this is okay if you don't let it make you angry too, I suppose... :-)

I don't. If daylia is smart, she won't either...this time. Right, daylia?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:21 PM

Try herbal tea.

Peg: Catnip, Chamomile, Rosemary teas are soothing.

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion. Aikido is a method of fighting, and before getting too spiritual about it all,

Brucie: I agree completely. Sometimes you do not have a choice; and MUST act.

side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place:-)

Dave; I wish you were correct. :-(

I have ended up embroiled in more verbal fights online than I care to remember, and I am a Zhan Zhuang Qigong master, and have received the title master in seven other disciplines. :-(

Ditto about sounding more hostile or one-sided than intended. I agree with mack - there does seem to be something about the net that can bring out the worst in people.

Daylia: It is not the net. the problem is in several areas.

1. with E-Mail there are just words. there is no inflection to pick up on if the person is joking.

2. The current generation is not as polite as earlier generations were.

3. The net is world wide, and a comment that is not offensive here; may be offensive elsewhere. Remember when President GHW Bush (if memory serves) went to Australia and as he was leaving waved two fingers (a backward peace sign), and that gesture was offensive to the Australian people.

4. You are talking to people you have never met, and likely never will meet.

and other reasons.

Aikido is a lot like jiu jitsu. Less strength, more ki (chi, qi) than in Jiu jitsu. Whatever "ki" is.

Clint: Ki is the Japanese name for universe lifeforce energy (ULE); just as qi or ch'i are the Chinese names for it. itaki is the Pueblo indian name for it, nuwati is the Cherokee name for it, and mana is the Hawai'ian name for ULE.

Daylia, myself and all energy healers use Ki for healing almost every day.

D T Suzuki published a very good book on Zen and the sword. I think it was published by Tuttle. Worth buying as the philosphy he expounded can be applied to all martial arts.

Shanghaiceltic: I have read three books on Zen by DT. Suzuki ("Zen Manual", "Introduction To Zen", and "Zen Buddhism: Selected Writings Of DT Suzuki") , and I will never waste more money on this particular author. If someone is interested in Zen; I would recommend

"Zen Keys" Thich Nhat Hanh
"Three Pillars Of Zen" Phillip Kapleau
and possibly "Zen Mind: Beginners Mind" Shunryu Suzuki

When I was taking martial arts in the 1960s; I spent many hours sitting seiza in Zazen meditation (Zazen is great for developing mindfulness (being present in the moment instead of living in the past or the future.)

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM

Frankly, I would never allow a healer to come into my space who is angry, egotistic, racist, out of control and judgmental. There is a woman in my town who is a massage therapist and I feel the same way about her.

That said, I welcome healers who are at peace with themselves and with the universe, people whose eyes reflect love and acceptance, people whose voices and body language welcome all in oneness.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:41 PM

People are many things. I've been around Two Bears and have not found his tendency to be verbally combative on certain issues to interfere in the least with his healing capabilities or his basically kindly nature.

For instance, he and I disagree radically on a lot of political things. That's mainly because we hale from different backgrounds. It in no way hampers us working together on healing modalities or being good friends in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM

Nope, Little Hawk. Not convincing. Another's energies affect each of us; negative energies diminish us.

But hey. Knock yourself out.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:46 PM

Sure thing. :-) You too, Ebbie. I have no idea why Two Bears is so combative on the Net. I think it might be because he's a really lousy typist.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:53 PM

LOL That's meant to be convincing, Little Hawk?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

"Clint: Ki is the Japanese name for universe lifeforce energy (ULE); just as qi or ch'i are the Chinese names for it. itaki is the Pueblo indian name for it, nuwati is the Cherokee name for it, and mana is the Hawai'ian name for ULE."

There's also prana and ruach. But all those are just names, not explanations or even descriptions. I had a book (now lost) by an aikidoka who claimed there is no such thing as ki; it's all physics, anatomy, psychology and confidence. I don't agree entirely, but a lot of things the aikido people call "ki" is a mixture of those things. Plus momentum & timing & who knows what. Especially the tricks people show you to demonstrate ki/chi are not always done with chi.

Is the chi that circulates through the acupuncture meridians the same as the chi that you use to heal? That a small person can use to throw a large person? (Do those meridians even exist except as a theoretical construct?)

There are some qi gong excercises you can do that will let you feel the chi in your hands, and after a lot of practice you can feel it in your arms & then your whole body. And it seems to be related to blood circulation. But what is it, aside from a word that makes it possible to talk about certain undefined phenomena?

That's why I said "whatever it is." It's a mystery. And a bit of thread drift, I suppose.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:56 PM

Convincing of what, Ebbie?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

(I don't think you're even trying to get my drift here...)

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Frankly, I would never allow a healer to come into my space who is angry, egotistic, racist, out of control and judgmental. There is a woman in my town who is a massage therapist and I feel the same way about her.

Ebbie: I am none of those things, and you would know that; if you knew me.

If you had not been judgemental; and asked for a clarification; I would have done my best to explain the statement to you.

I will assume you are referring to the time we clashed about the war in Iraq. so I will take a bit of time here.

Anger: This life is a gift from the Great Spirit, Universe, God, Goddess, etc (however one chooses to acknowledge the higher powers). and it is our duty to protect that precious gift. It is not anger to protect that life from people who are intent on killing you.

Egotistic: I am not sure how this fits me in my opinion; but I will try to explain it. Do I appear to be egotistic at times? most likely; but appearing to be egotistical is NOT necessarily being egotistical. Ebbie: I have done MANY things in this incarnation, and have had experiences in martial arts, assorted religions, different healing modalities, etc. Well I have studied more than a dozen different healing modalities, and have received the title "master" or higher in eight of them, and personally I feel it is my duty to caution those following in my footsteps about the pitfalls, and when some professional author, or some person recommends an exercize that is harmful to their physical, mental, psychological, or spiritual health; I will speak up and tell people the practise is not safe. Because I speak out from experience does not mean i am egotistical.

Racist: Up until 30 years ago; I USED to be racist. At that time; I would even go so far as to say I USED to be a bigot (as bad or worse than Archie Bunker). My Guardians indoctrinated me to Hate the Japanese, and the Blacks. I got to know Blacks and Japanese, and quickly learned that my guardians were idiots. For years; I have called members of all races brothers and sisters. In our debate I tried to make it abundantly clear that I have NO problems with Arabs, Japanese, Koreans, Americans, etc; but I DO have problems with people who are trying to kill inocent men, women and children (No matter what race they are, or what religion they practise.

Out of control: That is only an opinion of yours.

Judgemental: I do not judge people according to their race, sexual orientation, religion, because they smoke, drink, overeat, etc. When someone harms a child or an elder that person is spiritualy sick, and I do judge them based on their actions.

It IS true that Jesus said "Judge not; lest ye be judged" but he was talking about people judging the person's immortal soul.

In Matthew 16: 19; Jesus said the following to Peter "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatosever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shalt be loosed in heaven"

In Matthew 18: 18; Jesus said almost the same thing; but in this case it was to all of the disciples instead of strictly to Peter as in the first verse.

I will judge evil everytime I see it. Terrorists who try to kill inocent men women and children that did nothing to them is evil.

Even Jesus (the greatest healer) was judgemental.

Jesus cast out many unclean spirits (a legion from just one man).

Jesus over turned the money tables in the temple, and ran the money changers out of the temple with a stick.

I do not remember where it is; but a concordance can find it easily enough; but Jesus was walkingm abd wanted figs (because they were in season) but the fig tree was bare, and he cursed the tree, and the tree died a few days later.

That said, I welcome healers who are at peace with themselves and with the universe, people whose eyes reflect love and acceptance, people whose voices and body language welcome all in oneness.

Then you will not get to know many very good healers. I would rather have a healer who is honest, and will say the same thing to your face he or she will say behind your back.

In case; you are thinking of a healer's moods affecting the energy coming from them; This IS a problem with Qigong, Reiki, Seichim, Actualism, Silva Mind Control, and most others.

This is NOT a problem with getting a healing from myself; Daylia, and ANY HUNA practitioner that heals with mana loa instead basic mana or mana mana.

I gather the mana surcharge, and choose a prayer picture; but I do NOT send the prayer picture and mana surcharge to you (if I were doing a healing for you. I send the energy, and prayer picture to YOUR 'Aumakua. Your 'Aumakua converts the basic mana into mana loa (spiritual lifeforce energy (without any of my emotons, ego, etc) and uses that to manifest the prayer picture into reality (if it is in your highest good) If that is not in your highest good; the prayer picture is done away with, then uses the mana loa in a way that is in your highest good.

If you have other questions or comments; PM me.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:40 PM

There's also prana and ruach. But all those are just names, not explanations or even descriptions.

Clint: There are names for ULE from every culture that has discovered it. I have seen a a list of 15-20 different names for lifeforce energy.

I had a book (now lost) by an aikidoka who claimed there is no such thing as ki; it's all physics, anatomy, psychology and confidence. I don't agree entirely, but a lot of things the aikido

I must disagree with that book. ULE is a real force that can be directed with the mind.

Is the chi that circulates through the acupuncture meridians the same as the chi that you use to heal?

Yes. There is only one universal lifeforce energy.

Qigong, HUNA, etc healers gather a surcharge of energy via deep breathing before the healing.

Actualism, pranic healing, Reiki, Seichim, Silva Mind Control, Therapeitic Touch, etc either use the lifeforce of the healer. or consciously tap into the sea of ULE all around us.

That a small person can use to throw a large person? (Do those meridians even exist except as a theoretical construct?)

Physical strength is not important. Mental strength, and the ability to focus the mind into a one pointed concentration, and the ability to direct the lifeforce is very important.

Yes; I believe the meridians are real. Because I can feel the energy flowing through my body when I still my mind, AND I can feel the areas where a person has blocked meridians by scanning the person with my hands about 4-6 inches above the body.

There are some qi gong excercises you can do that will let you feel the chi in your hands, and after a lot of practice you can feel it in your arms & then your whole body.

One of the best ones I have seen to experience qi in your hands and arms is the Zhan Zhuang pose "Holding the balloon in front of your face" from the book "The Way Of Energy" by master Lam Kam Chuen.

ANL 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:03 AM

Nope, Little Hawk. Not convincing. Another's energies affect each of us; negative energies diminish us.

You are absolutely correct Ebbie. Now you know why the only healing modality I use is HUNA, and the use of mana loa; but I explained that earlier.

Sure thing. :-) You too, Ebbie. I have no idea why Two Bears is so combative on the Net. I think it might be because he's a really lousy typist.

Little Hawk: I am nowhere near as combative as people think I am.

If I were to make the statement "the sun rises in the East" there are people who would disagree with me.

I AM a lousy typist. I use two fingers and use the hunt and peck method of typing.

I have limited time and lifeforce to sit behind this keyboard.

I am as subtle as a brick at times.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:08 AM

"That a small person can use to throw a large person? Physical strength is not important. Mental strength, and the ability to focus the mind into a one pointed concentration, and the ability to direct the lifeforce is very important."

As someone not using all that wonderful mental stuff and all, just physical techniques, I upset the balance of the master showing us 'push hands', because he was expecting all beginners, and I had previously studied some physical technique, so knew about 'getting under' :-) - of course, as soon as he realised what was happening, he reacted in ways I was not expecting and faster than I could counter - (he was definitely better and more experienced - which is WHY he was a master!). He asked me afterwards how long I had studied. :0 I told him it was mostly book study!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:30 AM

I am still reserved on the application of this to verbal abuse expect to maintain a calm mind. A few years ago the very old writings that appeared in Go Rin No Sho (Books of Five Rings) by Musashi Miyamoto were sort of high jacked for business people. It made a mint for the people who tried to apply his thinking (which was very obtuse at times) to business practise.

I see your point now, Shanghaiceltic - thanks for explaining. Sounds like Aikido and Kendo have quite different approaches to very similiar techniques -- where Aikido emphasizes defense, attacking is part of the training in Kendo (I hope I've understood you correctly). And I agree - the "attack mode" is counterproductive when peaceful productive discourse is the goal.

I love what you said about music and the martial arts! Funny, just as you were posting your comments last night, I was busy organizing my studio, checking my piano for tuning, returning my student's calls to confirm their lesson times. I'm back to teaching today after a long summer break -- YIPPEEEEEE!    :-) Studying music is quite the "discipline" too, but when it's presented wisely children just LOVE it anyway.


If daylia is smart, she won't either...this time. Right, daylia?

Right, Little Hawk. I've put myself on notice here in front of you all for a reason - and I'm NOT going to mess up! BTW are we ever going to stop playing phone tag and get together or what????


Is the chi that circulates through the acupuncture meridians the same as the chi that you use to heal? That a small person can use to throw a large person? (Do those meridians even exist except as a theoretical construct?)

As far as I know, yes to all those questions Clint. Chi is chi, whether it's being directed for healing or for "martial" purposes. I work with energy as a complete system ie I have not worked specifically with "meridians". That would require a lifetime or several of study (human beings have at least 108 or so meridians and 8 major chi vessels), so I'm quite content to leave all that to the acupuncturists!

Believe me, if you ever allowed a unscrupulous "healer" or energy worker to mess with your energy to the point of becoming sick with various mysterious ailments that have no physical cause (or standard Western medical remedy), you'd have no doubt that chi is not just a theoretical construct. I know - it happened to me.

Frankly, I would never allow a healer to come into my space who is angry, egotistic, racist, out of control and judgmental...Another's energies affect each of us; negative energies diminish us.

I agree, Ebbie. I'd like to add that the only time someone else's negative energy can "diminish" me is if my own state of physical health/mind/emotions is also "negative". When I can remain calm, loving, and centered; when I have lots of surplus energy due to practicing a healthy physical lifestyle and exercises like Qigong and Huna - then nothing and no-one can affect me in ways that I don't already want to go.

Yes Two Bears, you are subtle as a brick. :-)

In the 15 months I've known you, we've certainly had our "outs" about various things - but never once have you insulted, tried to hurt or "attack" me in any way. You've never become angry for longer than 2 minutes or held a grudge. You're a powerful healer, a good listener, accepting and understanding too - but you certainly don't back down when you feel your integrity or opinions are being challenged, do you?

There are ways of standing firm that work better than others, though ... as McGrath says:

.. there is a difference between expressing disagreement, or responding in a highly critical way, and coming out with a stream of insults which are totally unrelated to the disagreement.   

And that's why I see such value in martial arts principles - to quote Shanghaiceltic and brucie again:

Martial artists (good ones) always respect their opponents.

Sometimes the needs of the moment require a strike rather than a parry or an evasion ... please remember that the purpose of martial arts is to end fights by
1) not engaging in the fight
2) avoiding the fight
3) escaping from the fight or
4) laying a real shit kicking on the attacker(s)

Thanking you all very much for your input here,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:15 PM

As someone not using all that wonderful mental stuff and all, just physical techniques, I upset the balance of the master showing us 'push hands', because he was expecting all beginners, and I had previously studied some physical technique, so

Robin: Some people are naturally gifted in the ability to do this kind of stuff, then others have life experiences who develop a powerful one pointed concentration helps one to unconsciously direct a LOT of ULE.

In the 15 months I've known you, we've certainly had our "outs" about various things - but never once have you insulted, tried to hurt or "attack" me in any way. You've never become angry for longer than 2 minutes or held a grudge. You're a powerful healer, a good listener, accepting and understanding too - but you certainly don't back down when you feel your integrity or opinions are being challenged, do you?

Daylia: We have certainly disagreed on several things (such as the notion of good and evil) I have had LOTS of experiences with evil or negative entities, and you have not had those experiences.

Daylia; my integrity is non negotiable.

I have used the following quote several times "There are two opinions that matter to me and neither of them is yours." I think I better explain who holds those opinions that matter to me.

1. My own opinion because I have to face myself in the mirror every morning.

2. The Creator's opinion of me.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:45 PM

I hate to tell you, Foolstroupe, but you were using "that wonderful mental stuff." You didn't upset the master because you were stronger, but because you knew something he didn't expect. And knowledge is mental. So is calm, alertness, the ability to anticipate, and so on.

What I'd like to do is weed out all that kind of thing and get to the ki. Whatever it is.

And on the other hand, 2b may be able to throw someone with his ULE, but I suspect he'd need enough strength to lay on his hands; I don't think he can blast you from across the room. Some of the Aikido people say you need to be strong enough to lift 16 pounds. I don't know why that's the magic number -- maybe the Japanese equivalent of a stone?

Quan Sensei, my aikido indtructor, was a small man; he thought he was getting overwight when he got to 130 pounds. And he wasn't muscular, nor even wiry. He had what somebody called "boy arms."

He sat in the japanese seiza position -- kneel and then sit back on your heels -- and had me sit the same way in front of him. He said "Grab my wrists." and held his hands out in front of himself, not tensed, arms bent a little. I leaned forward and grabbed his wrists and he raised his arms from the shoulders without bending his elbows and tipped me over backwards, right over the ends of my toes. I weighed about 190 then.

I didn't feel any great force; for a moment I thought I'd been clumsy somehow and fallen down.

That is what some call "ki." I don't think it was anything magical; he just did it, rather casually. Not brute strength, not leverage, as in judo. But telling me its name doesn't help my understanding much, & that's what I've been trying to say.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:54 PM

& daylia, the philosophy of kendo & aikido are not so far apart; in aikido you do not attack pre-emptively, but when you are attacked you generally defend by throwing the bad guy or immobiliziing him with a joint lock, & that would be an attack if you had initiated it. You don't just stand there and block.

The techniques of course are far different.

Aikido is partly based on Japanese swordplay, though not kendo. The Yagyu school, I believe, though I know nothing specifically about it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 07:18 PM

Kendo was developed from many kenjutsu schools which were part of Japan's sword culture.

Yagyu ryu, Musen Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu are all still in existance and still teaching.

Each of the original koryu had specific methods which were passed by instruction to their students. Nothing was written down. It was a verbal transmission backed up by practice.

These ryu taught kata using pairs of people and used the solid wooden weapons, the bokken. To allow actual free fighting the koryu developed the bamboo sword the shinai and light body armour.

Also developed were bamboo tipped pole arms called the naginata. There are today schools of naginata. I have fought sword against naginata, a chellange as the fighting distance , the maiai, when using a naginata can be changed where the two handed grip on a sword means the maiai is more or less fixed.

In kendo and naginata the points of the body which are struck are fixed and are covered by the armour. Head, throat, wrists, chest and in naginata the ankles.

In kenjutsu and naginata jutsu most work is done in kata form with no armour and the cuts stopped at the last momemt. Further the cuts are aimed at the weak points of the armour. Inside of the arms, the gap between the helmet (kabuto) and neck, the inside of the crotch.

At one point kenjutsu and kendo followed almost parralled paths it was in about 1910 that the All Japan Kendo Federation was founded to more formalise the rules of kendo and naginatado. It also introduced the grading system.

Unlike in judo, aikido, karatedo, kendoka do not wear belts of any kind. The only way you find out how good a person is by crossing swords.

My sensei in Japan (the older man I mentioned earlier) Hashiba sensei used a particular phrase many times 'Ko ken chi ai' it meant 'respect a person by crossing swords'

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:28 PM

And on the other hand, 2b may be able to throw someone with his ULE, but I suspect he'd need enough strength to lay on his hands; I don't think he can blast you from across the room. Some of the Aikido people say you need to be strong enough to lift 16 pounds. I don't know why that's the magic number -- maybe the Japanese equivalent of a stone?

Clint: I have neen known to throw energy to do healing more than 2000 miles away.

I am not sure what he means about the 16 pounds; but in the orient; 8 is a very auspicious number.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:04 AM

"Clint: I have neen known to throw energy to do healing more than 2000 miles away."

I wasn't talking about throwing energy; i was talking about throwing people. I said

"2b may be able to throw someone with his ULE, but I suspect he'd need enough strength to lay on his hands; I don't think he can blast you from across the room."

It is possible to throw someone by touching them lightly, but not to throw them without touching them from miles away (as far as I know). I have heard of "Masters" who could flip people from a distance, but it turned out they could flip only those people who were their pupils.

What I call "throwing" is causing people to lose their footing so that they hit the mat, whether by WWF methods or by overbalancing them.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:26 AM

Thanks, Shanghaiceltic

I wasn't sure Yagyu ryu was still in existence, and all I know about the techniques are from the way they have been adapted to Aikido (which does use boken and staff as well as empty hands).

F'rinstance the shiho-nage technique is done by grasping the opponent's wrist with both hands, moving it across his body as you would thrust with a sword, then pivoting and bringing his hands over your head, and cutting down as you would with a sword.

Well, you have to see it.

I only got to brown belt, but the more I talk about it here the more I miss it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:44 AM

Shanghaiceltic, thank you for posting the information about kenjutsu and weapons training - very interesting! I'm wondering if you know whether or not Jiu Jitsu is the original Japanese martial art? My kids picked up that idea at the dojo, and I always wondered about it as many traditions (not just martial arts) put out the claim that theirs is the "original".

Jiu Jitsu does seem to be an all-inclusive discipline, focusing on throws and holds (like Judo), kicks, blocks and punches (like Karate), kata, and weapons training in the higher grades. Creativity is encouraged - my kids were required to make up their own kata for the brown belt grading (Youth level) and they did enjoy that. They were taught that never were these techniques to be used for anything but defence, and not the share them with friends outside the dojo. (It was like pulling teeth to get them to teach me what they were learning - I had to convince them the rule didn't apply to She Who Pays the Bills.)

Even the youngest white belts were introduced to short meditations before and after class, including giving thanks for the dojo, for the instructors and each other, and even for the parents who provided transportation and paid their fees. I liked that! :-) My kids had a wonderful sensei.

Clint, in my understanding chi is not magical at all, but a natural force, subtle and invisible - like gravity. It seems incomprehensible and "paranormal" to the Western mind only because Science has yet to study and explain it adequately, to develop a scientific vernacular to refer to it. In the East, however, it's a different story. People have been raised with an understanding of chi - how to manage and direct it to one's advantage - for millenia. For example, the Qigong article I posted states that 200 million Chinese rely on energetic healing techniques like Qigong and acupuncture for medical purposes today.

As a fist step however I would recommend skipping the martial side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place :-)

I just wanted to point out that while Qigong may not have been "what the doctor ordered" for Two Bears, it does seem to work just wonderfully to relieve anger and stress in my case. Gotta learn to manage that chi! (or manage that mana, to use the Hawaiian word for chi).

Ok I've said enough here .... Ent fu!

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

It is possible to throw someone by touching them lightly, but not to throw them without touching them from miles away (as far as I know). I have heard of "Masters" who could flip people from a distance, but it turned out they could flip only those people who were their pupils.

Clint

I know a Lin Kong Jing qigong master Sifu Richard Mooney who is known to knock down two lines of 6 people (total of 12 people) from across the room without touching them.

His teacher Paul Dong once knocked down a line of 30 people on the other side of a sheet of plywood.

I would much rather throw energy 2000 miles for healing.

Clint, in my understanding chi is not magical at all, but a natural force, subtle and invisible - like gravity. It seems incomprehensible and "paranormal" to the Western mind only because

Daylia: You are absolutely correct. Ch'i, mana, ikaki, manitou, prana, nuwati, Ki, and many other names for it is neither magical or paranormal.

As a fist step however I would recommend skipping the martial side and going for Qi Gung. A good bit of deep breathing and Qi (Chi) stengthening will help to rid you of the need to fight in the first place :-)

Dave the gnome posted that if memory serves, and I replied with something like "I wish that was correct"

The explanation is that as a child in school, and the abuse I received at home; the scool principal and others in the schoos system dictated that I be trained in the martial arts "So that young man can learn some self control and self discipline.

All the martial arts did for me was turn an SOB into a dangerous SOB, and I left three of my school teachers lying in the floor.

Deep breathing and Qi development is a tremendous help; but it is NOT a panacea.

People need to receive proper training, and I certainly did not. I was taught how to break things and hurt people, and I did that in spades.

After Tsang took me under his wing, and taught me Qigong the right way was I able to tame the monster within. One day I just got it.

"My thoughts and emotions affect the world around me. Every day I wake up; I am given the choice to be a positive influence or a negative influence" then I started choosing to be a positive influence.

I just did not want people falling into the trap of thinking deep breathing and developing ULE to be an instant cure.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:46 AM

Sorry I am not able to comment on the origins of jiu jutsu as I have never studied it but I do agree it seems to combine teachings of both armed and unarmed combat.

What kendo has taught me is a modicum of patience which I am trying to apply in re-learning music and how to play the whistle properly.

I know I have to practice and work at exercises in order to make those darned fingers do what I want them to do, in order, in time and without stuffing up. And at the same time I am trying to learn tunes and make them work naturally and I want to sometimes rush in and try to use some of the techniques for ornamentation. Then I get the big step backwards as I once again stuff up. then it is time again to break it down to slower more practiced movement again and try and go up another notch.

I am amaized by the coordination foe example that box players exhibit. Push, pull, play with both hands at the same time. In fact watching anyone use two hands plus coordination to make any instrument look simple to play makes me admire the sheer practice and time put in. The more economical and simple it looks the harder I know they have worked. Just like good martial artists.

And I guess that just like good martial artists a good player gets that buzz inside from making a difficult passage of music sound natural and free flowing and moreover they add their own stlye and signature to the music. And when they have done it they still think 'could I have done better'

An old Japanese saying was 'After the battle retye the helmet'

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:11 AM

Yes, NOT DURING it...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:17 PM

I wish I hadn't mentioned chi, now. I found this quote from someone whose name I've lost, but it's pretty much what I think.

"I believe the the linguistic term "Qi" is a culturaly entrenched word and too many people in the west (and elsewere) try to define it using our paradigms. I think the word is referring to a host of different... mechanisms."

2b, I'd rather throw healing energy than people too, but I'm talking about what's possible, not what's desirable. Richard Mooney seems able to throw his own pupils, as shown in his own tapes, but I have read reports from those who attended his seminars that aren't so glowing. I will search farther, however.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:29 PM

Shanghaiceltic, ditto about the patience required to subjugate a penny whistle (or any other unfamiliar instrument).   :-)   All the best!

I think the word is referring to a host of different... mechanisms."

Hmm - I understand chi as the energy that powers that host of different mechanisms. Like the gas that runs your car, powering all it's different mechanisms - not to be confused with the mechanisms themselves.

I believe the the linguistic term "Qi" is a culturaly entrenched word and too many people in the west (and elsewere) try to define it using our paradigms ... I'd rather throw healing energy than people too, but I'm talking about what's possible, not what's desirable

Physical demonstrations and "anecdotal evidence" of what is humanly possible when certain level(s) of ability to manage and direct chi are achieved are valuable, I suppose. Without them there'd be no motivation or reason to carry out any scientific research in the first place. Yet other people's anecdotes; even seemingly "miraculous" but incomprehensible physical demonstrations of "chi in action" are certainly no substitute for scientific investigation / explanation (at least to the Western-trained mind)

This is why achieving scientific validation and understanding of life-force energy and of the many diverse Eastern traditions based on it would be beneficial, imo - especially in the fields of medicine, public health and education.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM

"Hmm - I understand chi as the energy that powers that host of different mechanisms. Like the gas that runs your car, powering all it's different mechanisms - not to be confused with the mechanisms themselves"

It seems to me that would mean that chi powers the physical techniques too, the muscular strength, the timing, the speed and all that, which doesn't help me understand where the non-muscular strength comes from, or how to use it.

I *can* use it, sometimes at least, and I don't really need to know how it works, but I'm curious.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:05 PM

Yes, it's the same energy that powers both physical and non-physical actions - just at different "voltages" so to speak. Mental life-force energy is the power that drives and is generated by the intellect (reasoning, imagination, creative visualization). According to ancient Hawaiian understanding, mental life-force energy is many times more powerful than basic physical life-force energy (the energy produced by eating, drinking, breathing etc which drives the muscles / physical body). For example, say physical chi = 100 volts - then mental chi = 1000 volts or more.

Using a well-trained, totally focused mind and will (focusing intent or visualizing), martial artists and energetic healers etc direct the body's basic physical chi toward their specific goal. Through that mental action, they ramp the physical body's basic chi up to the level of mental life-force energy, which is many times more powerful. This is how the masters of the martial arts and Eastern healing modalities are able to accomplish their outstanding physical feats - by training the mind and the will to direct their physical chi toward the purpose at hand, thus "ramping" the physical chi up to the level of mental chi.

At least, that's my understanding to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM

Human adult muscles do not normally work at 100% of capability for at least 2 good reasons - in extreme circumstances, normal people have lifted cars off injured people, and performed such similar feats.

1) muscles keep something in reserve to extend endurance

2) if you have ever experienced a child - you will understand what I mean when I say 'GENTLY!'.... :-) we learn socially to restrain ourselves.

3) BTW, Adrenilin is a powerful muscle stimulant - fight or flight.


Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:19 AM

Good point about the "super-human" effects of adrenalin, Robin. It's interesting that there is a distinction made in Qigong between physical chi (which drives the muscles), emotional chi (which powers the heart, nerves and organs) and mental chi (which powers the mind). The fight or flight response could be an example of how basic physical chi can be ramped up to the level of "emotional chi" by experiencing intense emotional shock or life-and-death situation, to apply this Qigong paradigm.

Clint, you might be interested in this discussion The Existence of Chi/Qi? I found on a martial arts forum. To whet your appetite a little:

"According to modern physics, there are four fundamental forces. There is gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. Could there be a force that physicists know nothing about (chi) or is chi one of the fundamental forces in disguise. Do people believe that this form of energy exists? Can anyone produce research that supports the existance of chi?"

"The only way to "prove" chi exists, just like the only to "prove" that "God" exists is by direct, firsthand experience. There is a science to these experiences, obviously, but because it isn't completely materialistic and reductionist, many of the "hard" scientists will give you giggles. But, to be frank, these individuals have not gone through the injunctions in question themselves and so they aren't exactly "peers" in this particular regard. It would be like me laughing at a biologist's theories when I haven't even bothered to look through the miscroscope and observe the "evidence" myself."

"The scientific method, in terms of the truth claims that it seeks, is perfectly capable of acquiring knowledge concerning ch'i and the like. I pointed above what the scientific method entails: an injunction, datum, and peer evaluation. Period. Anyone that adds anything else to that and claims that you *have* to do this to be doing science is belching a lot of hot air ... I'm reminded of the EEG studies concerning the brainwaves of meditators, of cross-cultural anthropological/sociological studies concerning the "perennial philosophy" and overall human development/experience, and I even once recall seeing some special on Kung Fu on Discovery n which a machine was hooked up to a certain martial artist and it would show his image "light up" whenever he used "ch'i".

So, to think science has nothing to add concerning this issue is far from accurate"

In fact, it seems evident to me that there are a lot of things that eastern and indigenous medicine and healing methods seem to address that western medicine doesn't, and there are a lot of phenomenom that modern science hasn't been able to fully explain ... However, what I do get tired of is stuff like the Chi master who does things like "throwing" a willing student without touching them physically, and then goes on to use the arguement that "Some things western physics will never understand" because they want us to believe that what they are doing is "beyond the physical." This is crap. If the effects are physical, such as the person is being projected accross the room, then these physical effects should be measureable somehow, in a consistant fashion. Even if Modern Science is far behind ancient eastern thought in regards to the subject, that doesn't mean that we should take physical effects on "faith alone ... I believe in Chi, and I believe that it has been proven, and that we are learning more and more about it every day. Yet, I get tired of "Chi clowns" who claim superhuman powers from Chi, yet refuse to even suggest that there could ever be any physical evidence to back their claims."

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM

2b, I'd rather throw healing energy than people too, but I'm talking about what's possible, not what's desirable. Richard Mooney seems able to throw his own pupils, as shown in his own tapes, but I have read reports from those who attended his seminars that aren't so glowing. I will search farther, however.

What do you mean by that?

I know throwing healing energy is possible.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:28 AM

I *can* use it, sometimes at least, and I don't really need to know how it works, but I'm curious.
clint

Using a well-trained, totally focused mind and will . . .
daylia

Clint, you're not going to find what you're looking for in this crowd. Good luck elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:43 AM

Actually, I don't see that the type of "answers" needed to satisfy Clint have been furnished by ANY crowd, scientific or otherwise.

Yet.

Did you have a more viable explanation, GUEST? Or could you perhaps link us to some credible scientific research / information we haven't found yet then?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:14 PM

2b:

"What do you mean by that?
I know throwing healing energy is possible."

I meant that I wan't arguing with you about healing energy.

I was talking about moving physical objects, in this case people, without touching them, as Sifu Mooney claims to do. I agree with you that healing is generally more worthy than knocking people off their feet, but that wasn't my topic. That's all.

*daylia*:

"Actually, I don't see that the type of "answers" needed to satisfy Clint have been furnished by ANY crowd, scientific or otherwise.

That's exactly right. That's why I said "Chi, whatever it is," and got myself -- & y'all --into all this.

There may not be any answers. I don't think anyone can explain, scientifically or otherwise, how to write a good song. (Yes, I know people don't agree on what the good songs or stories are, but there is some general agreement. And we all know good songs & stories exist.)

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,rich mooney
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:18 AM

love is stronger than hate.

love creates more love, hate consumes itself totally.

healing energy travels better than hateful energy.

hate and anger destroy your mind and body.

love and caring ensures your life, body and soul will have a peaceful
afterlife. hell is what you make it. so is heaven.

I used to engage in energetic work from martial arts perspective, now I know to love my enemy and welcome him. if he is not ready to receive my freindship and caring, he will be the receipient of his own malice. Ueshiba understood this very plainly and quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 09:18 AM

rich mooney, you're not after all my money are you???   ;-)

thanks for dropping the name Morehei Ueshiba 1883-1969. I had no idea who you were referring to - a google search revealed he was the founder of Aikido, which tranlates as The Art of Peace.

Apparently Sensei Ueshiba transformed his philosophy of the martial arts after three visions convinced him that the Way of the Warrior is the Way of Peace.

Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers, and pin an opponent with a single finger. Although invincible as a warrior, he was above all a man of peace who detested fighting, war, and any kind of violence ... Throughout his life, however, Morihei was sorely troubled by the contention and strife that plagued his world: his father's battles with corrupt politicans and their hired goons, the devastation of war, and the brutality of his country's military leaders.

Morihei was on a spiritual quest and was transformed by three visions ... "Around two o'clock in the morning as I was performing ritual purification, I suddenly forgot every martial art technique I ever learned. All of the techniques handed down from my teachers appeared completely anew. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, virtue, and good sense, not devices to throw and pin people."

The third vision was in 1942, during the worst of the fighting of World War II and in one of the darkest periods of human history. Morihei had a vision of the Great Spirit of Peace, a path that could lead to the elimination of all strife and the reconciliation of humankind. "The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood as a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek competition are making a grave mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst sin a human being can commit. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love." Morihei secluded himself in the country and devoted every minute of his life thereafter to refining and spreading Aikido, the Art of Peace.

Very interesting is the story of how he used "mental chi" to avoid the bullets from a firing squad of 16 men (at the first link). One, two, three. The six revolvers fired at the same time and a cloud of dust whirled around us. Then, suddenly, one of the six marksmen was flying through the air! What had happened? Before we could figure it out, Sensei was standing behind the six men, laughing into his beard ... This far I could remember clearly, but the next stage, where Sensei had moved the distance of 25 meters and thrown one of the six marksmen, I simply could not understand. I couldn't find any explanation for other than "God techniques." Yet, when he was challenged by a true gun master, he refused to stand before the pistol ... I watched carefully, and a bit anxiously, as Sensei sat down in seiza at the far end of the dojo while Mr. Sato took distance and aimed. And then just as he was on the verge of pulling the trigger, Sensei dropped his head in recognition and said, "Wait! Your bullet will hit me! Your thoughts are undistorted, and clearly you want to hit me. From the beginning you've known that you are going to hit your target. I cannot avoid the gun of such a man, you are a true master!"

Well, if these stories are to be trusted, it's not so crazy to think that chi is directed, or "mastered" through disciplined mental focus and a highly trained will. That is exactly how one trains to direct life-force energy for healing the body as well.

But most interesting of all are the 114 quotes from Ueshiba's talks and writings, at the link "The Art of Peace"...

The Art of Peace begins with you. Work on yourself and your appointed task in the Art of Peace. Everyone has a spirit that can be refined, a body that can be trained in some manner, a suitable path to follow. You are here for no other purpose than to realize your inner divinity and manifest your innate enlightenment. Foster peace in your own life and then apply the Art to all that you encounter

I especially liked his references to Life-Force Energy as the "Breath of Life" ... The Art of Peace functions everywhere on earth, in realms ranging from the vastness of space down to the tiniest plants and animals. The life force is all-pervasive and its strength boundless. The Art of Peace allows us to percieve and tap into that tremendous reserve of universal energy ... Now and again, it is necessary to seclude yourself among deep mountains and hidden valleys to restore your link to the source of life. Breathe in and let yourself soar to the ends of the universe; breathe out and bring the cosmos back inside. Next, breathe up all fecundity and vibrancy of the earth. Finally, blend the breath of heaven and the breath of earth with your own, becoming the Breath of Life itself ...

All the priciples of heaven and earth are living inside you. Life itself is the truth, and this will never change. Everything in heaven and earth breathes. Breath is the thread that ties creation together. When the myriad variations in the universal breath can be sensed, the individual techniques of the Art of Peace are born.

Consider the ebb and flow of the tide. When waves come to strike the shore, they crest and fall, creating a sound. Your breath should follow the same pattern, absorbing the entire universe in your belly with each inhalation. Know that we all have access to four treasures: the energy of the sun and moon, the breath of heaven, the breath of earth, and the ebb and flow of the tide.

When he speaks of "absorbing the entire universe in your belly with each inhalation?, he is referring to the technique of building up a surcharge of chi in the tan tiens - the largest of the eight chi vessels, located just below the navel. Focusing on the tan tien is a major part of Qigong.

NOTE: Here's an easy Qigong technique to try if you like: as you are falling asleep, rub your lower belly gently in a circular motion, 30 times clockwise then 30 times counter-clockwise. This not only produces health benefits by massaging all the inner organs, but the friction with your hand builds up chi in the tan tien as well. It's soothing, relaxing, warmly energizing ... and puts me right to sleep too.   :-)

The reason I find Ueshiba's references to the Breath of Life so exciting is because it's EXACTLY the same as Huna - the ancient Hawaiian technique of managing and directing mana (chi) through deep breathing and emotional/mental focus/visualization. The Hawaiian word for the Breath of Life is Ha ... as in "Aloha" (meaning "go with the Breath of Life" and also I love you, hello, goodbye etc).

The basic technique in Huna is the Ha Rite, during which one builds up a surcharge of mana between the hands through deep breathing while "charging" that mana with one's mental/emotional intent (ie healing purpose). Then one sends the intent and energy surcharge to the healee's (or one's own, if working on oneself) "higher power". Huna is the easiest, most powerfully effective energetic healing modality I've encountered to date - oohhh, I could tell you stories and stories and STORIES about how Huna has helped me, and my friends and family, about the "miracles" I've seen take place both under my hands and hundreds of miles away using the Ha Rite ... but they'd all be only anecdotes. I'm sure they'd invite only ridicule, disbelief, flaming ... "troll bait" for sure. *sigh*

That's why I think scientific investigation, verification and explanation of chi and techniques like Huna are just what the doctor ordered for the health of the whole planet today. So thanks for the input, rich mooney - I've learned alot today already, and it's only 9 am!

But I do know this - doing a Ha rite for those 'Cats and GUESTS who insult and flame me has proven to be a sure cure for anger, and therefore for "verbal violence". It's quite impossible to do a Ha rite for someone, visualizing them perfectly happy, healthy, enjoying everything they need and desire in life - and stay angry at them.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:22 AM

Whoever wrote Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. seems not to have learned the lesson! In my opinion to state a dissputable fact as absolute is simply inviting disagreement.

The principle tennat of Aikido, as far as I am aware, is to avoid confrontation whenever possible. I do not believe Ueshiba would have approved such a statement and it seems quite sad that in the mere 35 years since his death his teachings can have become so disstorted.

Never mind eh. At least the energy expounded producing the article has not been wasted. It made me laugh at least:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:59 AM

"...doing a Ha rite for those 'Cats and GUESTS who insult and flame mehas proven to be a sure cure for anger, and therefore for "verbal violence". daylia

I thought about sending you a PM, daylia, but decided that since this is a public forum and there may be people here who are taking large bites of this, I will state my own mind.

My instinct bids me to shy away from people - healers or not; frankly, especially healers - who show such lack of insight. In my judgment Two-Bears exhibits the same blindness. The one thing that really frightens me in this world is people who are so sure of their 'rightness'. I've come to the place where I feel that asking the right questions is more important than the 'right' answers.


love insight

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:29 PM

Ebbie,

You'll also note, from her statement "It's quite impossible to do a Ha rite for someone, visualizing them perfectly happy, healthy, enjoying everything they need and desire in life - and stay angry at them" that she feels perfectly entitled to "visit" her brand of spirituality, flakey or not, on others, whether they request it or not. She keeps doing that to people, right after a messy blow-up. Like she can fix US even if SHE was the perpetrator who got out of control. Good trick, eh? Quite an "enlightened" view of the world (in the postmodern deprecatory sense, of course).

Subject: New Age Proselytization
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:05 PM

I'm also concerned that there is a signficant amount of New Age stuff peppered into threads around Mudcat. As someone often and sometimes brutally accused of Christian proselytizing in the past-- more usually flamed for the sake of trolling than for the real mistakes I made-- it strikes me as as deeply unfair that now that mention of one's Christian faith has become non-PC-targetable, others' beliefs are so casually and persistently glorified.

More and more I feel like my good friend BillD-- I'd rather not have it in my face. And it is in my face, here, every day. I think this is the first time I have objected to it publicly-- I guess after several years here my tolerance is slipping.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

I understand your concerns, Ebbie. Perhaps it would have been better to explain more about doing a Ha rite.

When doing a Ha rite for another person, the energy is sent to what the Hawaiians called the person's 'Aumakua - their "spiritual Self", "guardian angel" or "higher power". The mana is sent as a gift of love and gratitude, with the clear intent that it be used only according to the person's free will, for whatever purpose or in whatever manner serves the person's greatest benefit.

This way, the basic spiritual requirements governing any successful "prayer action" - the laws of non-interference or free will - are met. Ha Rites do not work otherwise. Plus, by sending the energy to the person's Spiritual Self, it's guaranteed to used in the person's best interests - which of course, I cannot possibly know (even about myself sometimes!).

I've often suspected that the person's 'Aumakua sends a portion of the energy gift right back to me as well. That's why I cannot do even a 1-minute Ha rite without receiving tangible benefits of some kind myself. I LOVE Huna! :-)

The only exception to this is when the person has requested something specifically (ie energy to help with a migraine, to help with a job interview etc). In that case, I create a "prayer picture" that visualizes their stated need or desire as already met (ie seeing the person completely well and happy and free of the headache, or leaving the successful interview completely confident and pleased etc). I focus on that intent while I'm doing the deep breathing to generate the surcharge of chi or mana.

Yet even in these cases, when I send the energy to the person's 'Aumakua I always state that it be used for the stated purpose, or if that is not in the person's interests then any other purpose which does serve the person's greatest good, according to their own free will.

Hope this clears things up a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:46 PM

Dave, thanks for your interesting insight about "verbal violence" and inviting confrontation. I'm glad the article brightened your day - I know enjoyed it!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:49 PM

Susan, what works for me is that when someone talks about any belief system, I read it as "This is me, this is what I do," no matter how they meant it. The problem is - or CAN be - concerned with more general things than faith.

There's been a growing tendency to convince other people to believe the same things they do about EVERYTHING. "You don't like the music I do, something's wrong with you," "You don't like the same politician I do, something's wrong with you," "You don't like topics at Mudcat, ways of discussing things, cookies or no cookies, there's something wrong with you." The discussions all end up being about what's wrong with people and what they say, and the topic is buried in the dust. They usually end up being debates about who's right and who's wrong.

I don't have a problem with anybody talking about what they believe. It's the "convincing" part that's annoying to me. Beliefs are part of who people are. The problem is, when you or I start feeling like we're being beaten over the head with any belief, we're either going to become mad (to whatever degree) or bored. Either way, we stop listening.

"Doing a Ha rite for those 'Cats and GUESTS who insult and flame me" is pretty much the same as "I'm going to pray to Jesus to save all of you who insult and flame me." These things MIGHT be meant kindly, but they rarely come off that way to somebody who already doesn't like what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:07 PM

This is true, Jeri. It certainly is not my intent to beat anyone over the head with anything. I'd have happily let the thread die long ago, but responding to people and researching their comments has brought me much enjoyment plus valuable new insights about chi, about Huna, and the martial arts - all of which rank high on my "passionate interests" list these days.   

Certainly not everyone shares these interests - so please, if people find these ideas and words so offensive just let the thread die ok? Ent fu!

Thanking you all once again for your input here,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:57 PM

Certainly not everyone shares these interests - so please, if people find these ideas and words so offensive just let the thread die ok? Ent fu!

Thanking you all once again for your input here,

daylia

Especially since it was started by daylia as an attack thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 03:23 PM

Some of that stuff about Morihei Ueshiba is preposterous.

"Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers, and pin an opponent with a single finger."

He was still doing Aikido at 80, all right, and doing it well. Isn't that enough?

And the firing-squad story has grown since I first heard it. What I heard is that an enemy officer tried to shoot him, and O-Sensei was able to see where & when he was going to shoot and evade.

This has grown into a story that he could dodge bullets, and now into the firing squad and God-techniques. What he did is called anticipation; it was difficult to avoid telegraphing your punches when facing Ueshiba. I have read a of a cop who did the same thing. when faced with an armed criminal. It's a high level of skill, but not God. And probably not to be depended upon.

Inexperienced shooters, and some experienced hip shooters sometimes even punch the gun forward as they fire and a good boxer can slip a punch, which would make him hard to shoot at close range.

Ueshiba was also a showman, and good at psyching people out. He'd sit on a high stool with his feet off the floor and extend his hand and have you push on it; he'd hold you off with that hand you couldn't tip the stool over. That's one of those "chi" tricks. I just went downstairs and tried it with a 160+ lb person leaning on my hand and didn't get pushed of the stool or tipped over. He could do vastly better things than that, things that require real ability, but the stool trick is showy, and got into stories. The Aikido equivalent of a sound bite.

The things he could really do were wonderful enough; the silly miracle stories only cheapen his reputation.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM

Thanks, Clint, for that post. I am pretty familiar with O-Sensei's life, and I feel exactly as you do. The form he developed, and the philosophy that goes with it, are pretty amazing on their own. Those that feel as though they must sensationalize a pretty amazing human being just cheapen his image. Unfortunately, in today's climate in Aikido, many feel the need to do this. I believe that Ueshiba would disapprove mightily. I liken it to those that felt the need, years ago, to paint embellishments on the serape of Juan Diego. Their faith was based on a poor foundation, and they could not see the miraculous nature of the image of Guadalupe.

Morehei Ueishiba needs no glorification beyond that which he justly earned.

I am in agreement with Jeri's position with regard to beliefs. Proselytizing and/or preaching at folks doesn't cut it. Expressing one's own beliefs and what they are founded on, is fine as long as it isn't judgemental. I am reminded of my wonderful 12 year old daughter, who just the other came to me with some worry because the Protestant kids told her all Roman Catholics would go to hell. In fact, one of the best Mudcatters I know left her home town, in part, because of that kind of bigotry in the church of which she was a member.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM

Big Mick, Clint - what you've said about O-Sensei reminds me of the plethora of conflicting material out there these days about Dr. Mikhail Usui, the founder of the Reiki (Japanese) traditions of energetic healing. It's discouraging to find so many different versions of his life and teachings, and so many of the Reiki traditions themselves at odds with one another over them.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:49 PM

Actualy I've just had an idea! How about a mudcat martial art? Muddo or, possibly, Cat pu? I want to be it's first major exponent. I can use it to disarm a foe, down any number of attackers or pin an opponent with a single finger! Let's see if it works...

Dayliaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Whoops. held the finger for too long. Hope it didn't hurt.

Guesttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt. Aha - got you!

Big Mickkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. See - even pins the big feller;-)

Wayhey!!! In years to come I can be history's greatest martial artist! Not only can I do all this but can do it across the ether to millions!

Wow! Did you see that cruise missile I just dodged?

Sensei Dave
Master of Cat Pu.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 07:28 PM

Cat Pu ???   Load of old Poo Dave !

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:18 AM

My instinct bids me to shy away from people - healers or not; frankly, especially healers - who show such lack of insight. In my judgment Two-Bears exhibits the same blindness. The one thing that really frightens me in this world is people who are so sure of their 'rightness'. I've come to the place where I feel that asking the right questions is more important than the 'right' answers.

Ebbie:

Everyone has opinions. I just happen to have an opinion that is different than yours. It does not mean either of us are blind.

Going back to the most notable dispute we had; you made a decision based on emotion (in my opinion), and I made a different decision based on logic and reason.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:40 AM

Right

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:15 AM

I think Cat Pu stinks! Especially New Stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:07 AM

Cat Pu?   ROTFLMHO! :-)

Might make for quite the hair-raising kiai, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Rich Mooney
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:30 PM

*daylia* the mans name was Mikao Usui. Legends were made up to make reiki more palatable to western people. He passed his method usui shiki ryuho, or usui natural method to a Dr Hayashi, and also 13 others. Reiki was essentially a mans art of healing, until hawayo takata came and took it back to hawaii and the mainland. usui was never a christian, he never left japan, and he did not teach at a boys catholic school. all those tales are myths and fabrications.

dr hayashi came up with the hand positions, and other things that have been tacked onto reiki in the ensuing years, including the
ridiculous "tradition" that in order to become a true reiki "master" one had to pay 10,000.00 for the final initiation into the method.
that was created by the inevitable greedy people who also show up when something good comes into the world in an effort to make it an exclusive item for the very wealthy.

Usui is buried in japan, and his grave site is a tourist attraction.

I have been involved in healing, reiki, therapeutic touch and waiqi liaofa (external qi healing) for 15 years, and have journaled over 800 healing sessions with hudreds of people with hundreds of issues.
For me, that is enough empiric evidence that it works, and it is good enough for me.

Usui found his enlightenment, and that is how he expressed it. Ueshiba found his enlightenment, and he had his way of expressing it.
I am averse to any form of organized religion, because it then becomes an us vs them thing. the us's always think they are the chosen of whatever god, and the them are the ones who need to be converted, lest their souls burn in hells fire for all eternity,
or some other type of nonsense.

all religions are a form of propaganda, and are meant to be exclusive and divisive. A person should be good, simply because it is the right thing to do. not because some man behind a pulpit tells you it is the right thing to do. Secular humanism has much more to offer people than any organized tribal belief system, and that is why I prefer to be that way.

at our very best, we are all gods and goddesses. at our very worst we are all devils and devilettes. we can create our very own hell or heaven on earth by whichever road of life we happen to choose, IMHO.

those are my rambling thoughts anyways. g'nite y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:55 AM

'in order to become a true "master" one had to pay 10,000.00 for the final initiation into the method.'

I've been unemployed far too long.

Who wants to become a true "master" in my quasi-religious-music-thingie? I'll give 20% discount for the first 1000 Mudcatters who send their CD sampler (to prove they are practising musos) and cash - no cheques or other traceable currency... The contributor will the largest cash donation can have the right to suggest a name for the organisation...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM

Rich, thanks a lot for posting the information about Reiki and Dr. Usui here. Sheesh - I don't even know for sure that he WAS a doctor! A couple of the Reiki masters I've studied with referred to him that way. Other traditions insist he was a Christian minister; and some say he received his visions and teachings while fasting for 21 days on a mountaintop in Tibet. And I've come across a few different spellings of his name, including Mikao as you pointed out above.

I've heard that Mikao Usui did not use or teach the symbols or give "attunements" himself. One story is that Dr Hayashi just couldn't "get it" - he couldn't move the energy without a mental "crutch" of some kind - so he created the symbols to do just that. Another is that Ms. Takata was a widow with 3 children, so she started the tradition of charging astronomical amounts for "attunements" in order to support herself (which is perfectly justifiable according to SOME people) - and also to ensure that Westerners would value the tradition and give it the respect it deserves.

I have been involved in healing, reiki, therapeutic touch and waiqi liaofa (external qi healing) for 15 years, and have journaled over 800 healing sessions with hudreds of people with hundreds of issues.
For me, that is enough empiric evidence that it works, and it is good enough for me.

Rich, I'd really LOVE to learn more about the experiences you've had in your many years as an energetic healer! ... and especially if and how I could best apply the "journalling" aspect you speak of to my work with Huna!!

But if I get into a long drawn-out discussion about energetic healing with you here, some people will no doubt get annoyed and I'll be probably be accused of "beating people over the head" again. I'm not comfortable with posting my private eMail addy ... I DO wish I could PM you, but you have to log in as a member to use that feature on this site.   :-(

Should we risk such a discussion here anyway? OR could you sign in as member, Just for Today?????

In any case, I appreciate your input here very much.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,*daylia* just email me
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:21 AM

qimaster @ hotmail . com is an addie I still use. love to chat with you. we can avoid people getting mad and stuff.

I do travel the world though, and reaching me at times will be dicey at best. looking forward to the interaction,

rm

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:04 PM

Thanks Rich - I'm looking forward to it too! And thanks to the Mudcat as well, for hosting this discussion.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 05:34 PM

Hey, Guest Rich Mooney, good stuff! Everything you said rings true with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,Rich Mooney
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:11 PM

I have studied from many a guru, and learned many a thing
but at the end of it all, I would hear the cash register ring

I have studied this method and that method, and am really in tune
but after this long I have paid enough to send me to the moon

Knowledge is power, and this is the key
but to gain that power your must always pay money

I have studied quite a bit, and am now far along
that I now attract quite a large throng

My rates are fair, and some say cheap, and that makes me smile
because knowledge should be for everyone, not just for the rich with guile

The methods I teach are steeped in history to be sure
and I am glad to be a teacher's teacher, and not a moneyed whore

For there are those out there who sneak and connive
and make up crap and spew out a whole lotta jive

whenever some good comes along you can be sure
some thief will come along creating a "scam du jour"

So I will leave you know with these words of wit
make sure your teachers the real thing before you at his table sit.

I thank you now for your precious time of day
I am glad to have been of service to all who have come my way.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:49 AM

Rich you ARE a man of many talents! :-)

I have studied from many a guru, and learned many a thing
but at the end of it all, I would hear the cash register ring

I have studied this method and that method, and am really in tune
but after this long I have paid enough to send me to the moon ...

So I will leave you know with these words of wit
make sure your teachers the real thing before you at his table sit.

Rich is right on folks - his words ring so true
I've paid with my health and my sanity too.

My bank account drained, my nights full of fear
My flesh weak and sickened for reasons unclear

No doctor could name or relieve that which ailed me
And even my faith appeared to have failed me

Overcoming all this taught me one thing for sure
Real "Healing with Energy" was my only "cure"


Knowledge is power, and this is the key
but to gain that power your must always pay money

This is because of the "laws of the land"
Not written by Nature or "God", but by man
Through all of my "seeking" I now understand
When I TRULY "need" something, there it is - in my Hand!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,sing a silly song
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:59 AM

This stuff doesn't even scan.

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:33 PM

So? Write something of your own that does, then...

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:13 PM

Well, it doesn't seem to scam very well either. Hmmmm ...

maybe your scanner's caught a nasty glitch or a virus or something today, GUEST?

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM

He tried to scan and make a copy
sadly his PC refused, on strike went the floppy

The bits and the bytes and the board jumped in too
they jumped outta the case and chanted "FRELL YOU!"

He dashed outta the house in shock and in fear
to his own PC he'd never return, and now shed a tear

he went down to circuit city to see if they could help
they took one look at him, and said "Get out you Whelp"

We build PCs for scientists and engineers to
why this PC here would go on strike too

If they all ever knew what you'd tried to do
The modems would beep at you, and the onboard speaker too

Then the hard drives would rattle and you'd see the blue screen of death
Why the whole experience would be enough to put you on meth

So there you would be, all alone shooting dope in an alley
and one day a hot fix would kill you and set your soul free

Then you'd arrive at heavens gate, youd see st pete and he would say
So, you screwed up on mudcat, shot dope and died, get thee away!

Subject: RE: BS: Verbal Violence; Verbal Aikido
From: GUEST,rich mooney
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:34 PM

ps the above missive was from me. I could have gone on, but it would've gotten really strange in a salvador Dali kinda way:)