BS: David Irving goes to prison.

Subject: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1714403,00.html has been sent to prison for remarks made in Austria seventeen years ago. I have mixed feelings about this. On a personal level, I think he is everything the judge called him and have no sympathy. I also believe he pushed his luck by returning to a country in which he knew he was unwelcome. However, I am not sure that my dislike for the man means I should want him locked up for three years.
Can we discuss this without malice please?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:27 AM

I am sorry I buggered up that link. Here's another go.
David Irving.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:36 AM

I share your unease I just hope the white supremacist fuck-wits don't use him as a martyr.
Another side of me hopes that in experiencing one millionth of the terror and degradation inflicted on people in Auschwitz (some of whom are still alive)he come to his senses but I'm not hopeful.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:56 AM

In a news story on NPR this morning the interviewer asked why the man would return to Austria. The BBC reporter being interviewed said his partner had remarked that "David doesn't take advice well."

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:03 PM

As much as I hate the man's ideas we should never go to jail for our opinions.....or our stupidty. It is far more dangers that the thing we are punishing him for.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:07 PM

The thing about David Irving is that he gave credibility to Holocaust denial by claiming to be a historian. People would say, I don't believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, but David Irving is a serious historian, and if he is saying this maybe there's something to it.. I don't believe in the Holocaust denial, but since Irving says it, maybe it wasn't six million; yes Holocaust denial is totally discredited, but maybe there weren't gas chambers, etc.

He was an inept, bigoted, biased person whose claims to academic credibility have been previously destroyed. He was too proud to admit he was wrong and has been given a big fright.

Many Jewish people feel that a better way of dealing with him would be to laugh at him, dismiss him, expose his incompetence. They are concerned that he will become a martyr and develop more followers.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:22 PM

I bet he didn't expect that was my first thought, and I couldn't care less whether he ever gets out. The man is a self seeking egotist who thought he could break the laws of another country with impunity. Not only that but when he was arrested this time he was back in Austria to address a right-wing meeting.
Throw away the key mate, that's what I'd do.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:24 PM

Fifty years ago, anyone who seriously contended that the Holocaust was a fabrication would probably have been declared a menace to society and sent to a government-operated mental institution where he would have undergone a frontal lobotomy.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

Well the expected pro-Nazi demonstrations never materialised, which must be good.

I must say my feelings about this piece of Austrian "justice" are not mixed at all. The sentence is outrageous. How can they possibly defend it at a time when newspapers and magazines across Europe are exercising their entitlement to publish cartoons of a so-called prophet? Perhaps it's an over-zealous attempt to atone for the enthusiasm with which Austrians in vast numbers rallied to the fascist cause over the years - as, for instance, a few years ago when Kurt Waldheim was exposed as a war criminal.

Having spent quite a lot of time promoting genocide awareness, supporting organisations committed to "remembering for the future," and studying one particular genocidal crime, I do have mixed feelings about Irving himself. His scholarship is widely recognised among serious historians, notwithstanding that many find his views and some of his conclusions repugnant. I suspect his views about Auschwitz-Birkenau; the degree to which Hitler steered or was aware of the Final Solution, etc, were honestly held (he has admitted he was wrong about the gas chanbers at A-B). But he allowed himself to be sidetracked and became obsessive.

I can understand, without supporting, his resentment of what Norman Finkelstein has termed the Holocaust Industry (on which matter Finkelstein won support from the foremost Holocaust historian Raoul Hilberg). But I am delighted that Irving's stance has been so comprehenseively rebutted, by Prof Deborah Lipstadt and others. It was a stance calculated to mislead the gullible and needed to be challenged.

Rebuttal is exactly the right way to deal with a problem such as Irving presents. Prison is most certainly the wrong way.

For anyone interested, here are a links to the relevant pages of two organisations that encourage education about genocide and commemoration of its victims. The second in particular is doing magnificent work in the field, largely unsung.

Peace Pledge Union

Aegis Trust

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 12:35 PM

I'd drown him like a bag of unwanted puppies

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM

The problem of having such a well-intentioned piece of legislation is that you have to been seen to enforce it.

The other problem is that once in place - such legislation can be used for all sorts of things.

The man appears to be a fool and as such - is no real use as a martyr.

Perhaps poetic justice would be served by locking him away and then denying it ever happened?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM

A bad day for freedom, which must be defended at all costs. Irving's opinions are neither here nor there. It is a dangerous precedent which should make us all wary.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM

As has been said above - the details don't matter. (As a matter of fact I agree the man and his views are repugnant.But so are many people's.The answer is to ridicule with the facts).

But the fact that one can be imprisoned by the State for holding an opinion should be of the gravest concern.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:22 PM

I don't think that Irving was imprisoned for merely holding an opinion but, as Freda so lucidly stated, abusing his position as a "serious" historian by choosing to pronounce those opinions in a country where the legislation expressly prohibited that particular distortion of evidence for historically understandable reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM

They have locked up a 67 year old man for expressing an opinion.

If the evidence is so overwhelming that six million jews and several millon others died in the camps (and I believe it is), then such a denier will only be ridiculed.

When things become sacrosanct, it is everyones right, to question it for themselves. If there was ever a problem with this, what is orthodoxy afraid of?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM

I think he was imprisoned for all of the wrong reasons.. opinions, no matter how odious, should never be a crime, nor should being a bad historian warrant three years behind Bars. We are getting dangerously close to a form of self righteous fascisim and it scares me far more than Mr. Irving does.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

I couldn't care less what happens to a fascist shit like Irving. I do care what happens to political life in Austria, or anywhere else tempted to renact this ludicrous type of legislation. My feelings on this type of law is the same as what I feel about capital punishment: these laws degrade the people who enforce them. Sending someone to prison for writing the wrong kind is history is too demeaning to contemplate.
However, I must say I like the suggestion earlier in the thread that they should lock him up, and then pretend they haven't!

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 02:40 PM

bloody brilliant.... a result! at last someone is standing up these awful people. they despoil every bloody thing they touch and how they must laugh at the democratic courtesies of places like mudcat.

it's not really a case of of free speech - for those people who haven't really caught the drift. it is people - lots of people abusing our free society. Mr Irving is a very readable writer with an attractive demotic style. thus companies who should know a lot better, give his books big promotional pushes when they are published - the real villains are the giants of the high street book shops.

the freedoms of our society were very hard fought for. there are some capitalist gits who sell those freedoms for a mess of pottage every time they get the chance.

and should not Mr Irving enjoy those freedoms, I hear the appeasers chorus.

well put it this way for those right ideologues - should someone be allowed to advocate the murder of the royal family, or the poisoning of the water supply. Mr irving's ideas are a more subtle poison. Of course they should be allowed, they just shouldn't be sold quite as energetically as the basic decencies.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM

My friend Kevin was born and raised Mennonite. He is still a practicing Mennonite. He held completely to the non-violence ethic of the Mennonites -- until he visited Dachau.

Now he debates with his pastor, and was nearly drummed out of his church for stating that, in his opinion, war and violence are sometimes justified.

Laughing at the Klan, the ANP, the BNP, the Aryan Brotherhood, or any of the other such groups don't make them disappear. They respond, "Hitler was laughed at, too" or even "Jesus was laughed at and mocked just as we are."

On "Talk of the Nation" just a little bit ago it was said that Irving said in Court that he learned that the Holocaust actually happened in the 1990s. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay...but he did NOTHING to change what he had written and said earlier and in fact pursued a libel suit in England against a woman professor of Holocaust Studies.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:12 PM

A statement made 17 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM

He was found to have broken the law.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM

Some of you obviously have no real knowledge about this, so it seems to me when I read the posts.

The sentencing is not 'outrageous' but a simple consequence of the law. The judge had no alternative to a prison sentence (one could only debate the number of years). The law in question is not a normal law regarding free speech or stupid opinions, it is a law specifically regarding lies about the holocaust and nothing else.

You can lie about Stalin's, Pol Pot's, the Turks', Bin Laden's crimes or whoever you want to and it is merely a question of bad taste. Not so in this case.

These specific laws (in Germany and Austria) have been a demand of the Allies after the war to which there has been no alternative. In the case of Austria, the 'Staatsvertrag' which left the whole of Austria outside of the Warsaw pact and neutral and meant a retreat of the Red Army also binds Austria not to change that law (I don't know whether there is a time limit) as far as I know.

So if you attack the sentence it only shows you are not informed, the law itself may be debated (as Greg has).

I see no majority both in Austria and Germany for a change of these laws at this time in history. When the last survivor of the holocaust will have died then there might be the time for a change of these laws to the usual European standards of free speech. Up til then, they are a special legacy of our murderous past.

BTW, Irving has recanted during the trial and said he now accepts the holocaust as having happened.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Bert
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM

Well said Wolfgang, Thank you.

I had not posted to this thread earlier, because I am completely in the dark regarding the political and legal situation in Austria.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:03 PM

Emma B, he went to jail because he abused his position as a "serious" historian? What on earth are you talking about? If he is NOT a serious historian, it's hardly of any consequence whether he abuses his poition. If he IS, then he's entitled to his viewpoint, whatever we think of it.

"...where the legislation expressly prohibited that particular distortion..." sounds a little bit Orwellian to me. Do we really want to live in this kind of world?

Rapaire, your friend Kevin's take on war and violence is all very illuminating I'm sure, but sometimes we need to think these things out for ourselves.

I don't want to get sucked into defending Irving's views, but I've never heard him claim that the Nazi genocide of European Jews took place in the 1990s. I suspect you're just peddling tittle tattle, but if there is any substance to it I would appreciate some kind of reference.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM

How can someone expect to be taken 'seriously' as an historian if he denies what is obviously true. That I think is what EmmaB meant Peter, and I agree with her. Irving is the victim of his own arrogance, and also of his fairly obvious bias. It is not possible to equate this with the Cartoons episode, there was no law against the cartoons which there is against holocaust denial in Austria and several other countries.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:13 PM

"His scholarship is widely recognised among serious historians".

No it isn't. His absence of scholarship is widely recognised among serious historians.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM

Being punished by The State for denying 'FACTS' of history seems like a good idea.

But who decides what the 'FACTS' are?

"Who watches the watchers?"

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:08 PM

This site Court Case between David Irving and Professor Deborah Lipstadt and Renguin Books has some excerpts from the case for the defence in the case in which David Irving (the plaintiff)took Professor Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books (the defendents) to court when she challenged him for falsefying historic records in her book (published by Peguin) DENYING THE HOLOCAUST, The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory (the Work), published in 1994.

excerpts from case for the defence:

1. It is admitted that the Plaintiff is a well-known writer, and the author of a biography " Goebbels, Mastermind of the Third Reich" (hereinafter referred to as "the Goebbels book"). It is denied that the Plaintiff is an historian. Save as aforesaid, paragraph 1 of the Statement of Claim is not admitted.

7. that the Plaintiff holds extremist views, and has allied himself with others who do so, including individuals such as Dr. Robert Faurisson, and Ernst Zundel;

8. that the Plaintiff, driven by his obsession with Hitler, distorts, manipulates and falsifies history in order to put Hitler in a more favourable light, thereby demonstrating a lack of the detachment, rationality and judgment necessary for an historian;

9. that there are grounds to suspect that the Plaintiff had removed certain microfiches of Goebbels' diaries contained in the Moscow archives, from the said archives without permission; and that the Plaintiff lied and/or exaggerated the position with regard to the unpublished diaries on microfiche of Goebbels contained in the Moscow archives, and used by him in the Goebbels book;

10. that in all the premises, the Plaintiff is discredited as an historian and user of source material, and there was an increased risk that the Plaintiff would for his own purposes, distort, and manipulate the contents of the said microfiches in pursuance of his said obsession.

P A R T I C U L A R S

Meaning (i) - (iii)(v): The Holocaust and the Gas Chambers

11. The Plaintiff has publicly claimed as follows :

13. "Auschwitz was not an extermination camp and the Holocaust was a propaganda hoax by the British... That question [the Holocaust] is still wide open. I still maintain Auschwitz was not an extermination camp. There were no gas chambers there, I think they were a figment of British wartime propaganda..."

14. "I also predict that one year from now [1992], the Holocaust will be discredited. That prediction is lethal because of the vested interests involved in the Holocaust industry. As I said to the Jewish Chronicle, if a year from now the gas chamber legend collapses, what will that mean for Israel? Israel is drawing millions of dollars each year from the German taxpayer, provided by the German government as reparation for the gas chambers. It is also drawing millions a year from American taxpayers who put up with it because of the way the Israelis or Jews have suffered. No one is going to like it when they find out that for 50 years they have been believing a legend based on baloney".

15. "I do not think there were any gas chambers or any Master Plan. It's just a myth and at last that myth is being exploded."

16. "Why dignify something (the Holocaust) with even a footnote that has not happened" (when dealing with the new edition of "Hitler's War", written by the Plaintiff and published by the Plaintiff's own imprint, Focal Point in November 1991);

17. "The gas chambers were erected in Poland for the tourists".

in this court case of 1996 (a lot more recently than 17 years ago), the judges found against Irving and in favour of the defence.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:25 PM

BTW, David Irving's twin brother is highly sceptical of Irving's claim that he now believes millions of Jews were killed by the Nazis and that gas chambers did exist. Irving's twin, John Irving, holds totally different views to David irving and serves as chairman of Wiltshire Racial Equality Council.

Asked about his brother's recantation before a Vienna court, John Irving told The Times: "If I said 'E pur si muove!' would it mean anything to you?" The quotation is often attributed to Galileo who was forced by the Inquisition in 1633 to retract his heretical belief that the Earth moves around the Sun. The astronomer and philosopher was facing the death penalty but escaped with life imprisonment after disowning his findings. Under his breath, he is reputed to have murmured the now famous Italian phrase meaning: "Yet still it moves."

David Irving's books are sold via a website belonging to a publishing company run by Ms Hogh. Although he often claims to have rejected his old views, he makes the full texts of his works available on the internet for free downloading. Nuremberg: The Last Battle is filled with references to claims that Nazi gas-chamber atrocities were exaggerated by the Allies. Various versions of his book Hitler's War are freely published there too.

His website hails "the courageous Viennese students" whose invitation to Austria resulted in his arrest. It claims that, while in prison, he has handwritten a 600-page autobiography Irving's War. Irving makes regular visits to the United States, hosting the annual Real History, USA, Festival in Cincinnati. Highlights have included a showing of Leni Reifenstahl's notorious propaganda film Triumph of the Will about Hitler's 1934 Nazi congress in Nuremberg.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:44 PM

I have not made a study of the matter. But (as an American, I suppose) I have to suspect that there is some truth in allegations that need to be suppressed by such means.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Truth is not stranger than fiction. It is sillier. :||

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:47 PM

and that, Joe, is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM

My point is that Kevin has thought for himself, and in doing so damned near got thrown out of the religion he grew up in.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:39 PM

I am not clear that the Austrian law contains any necessity of deliberate falsehood, ie lying. I thought it was a crime to deny the Holocaust, whether or not you believe your denial to be the truth. I find such a law troublesome as a matter of principle. I also find any prosecution for a crime 17 years old to need very clear justification.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM

If you read Wolfgang's post of 21 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM, you will see that these laws, specifically regarding lies about the holocaust, were a demand of the Allies after the war to which there has been no alternative. In the case of Austria, the 'Staatsvertrag' which left the whole of Austria outside of the Warsaw pact and neutral and meant a retreat of the Red Army also binds Austria not to change that law.

And if you read my earlier post you will see that Irving is still promoting his anti-Holocaust views, and had in fact gone to Austria to propagate them. The 17 years ago thing is a myth and a furphy.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:58 AM

The actual crimes were committed a lot more than 17 years ago.

Should we allow these to be forgotton and anyone responsible not brought to account bacause of this time lapse?

There are practical difficulties when the few surviving witnesses are no longer with us - but I do not see that how long ago a crime was committed should matter apart from this factor.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:24 AM

Peter K,

Irwin did not claim it happened in the 90s, he said that was when he learned it had happened.

Wolfgang, the history of the laws is interesting. There has been criticism of Austria for not persuing war criminals with such vigour though.

In the muslim world much is being made of this. They do see it as meaning that our devotion to freedom of speech is selective. Perhaps those post war laws in Austria and Germany should be brought up to date?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:42 AM

The Austrians have these (rather draconian) laws as a conscience-salve; they have never really faced up to Austria's enthusiastic embracement of Nazism from well before the Anschluss to the point where it was obvious that the war was lost. For political reasons (to do with Russia), Austria was classed as a 'victim' after the war, and they never went through the full investigation process that (west) Germany did. Hence the last generation of Austrian politicians having their dubious past regularly brought to light.

On the other hand, no one can have sympathy with Irvine. The smirking bastard is well funded by neoNazi sympathisers, who picked up the bill when he lost the libel trial. I think he was expecting a few thousand pounds equivalent in fines; hence his shock at the prison sentence.

His (like Hannam's) freedom of speech amounts to the proverbial shouting of fire in a crowded theatre, given the prevalence of Nazi clingers-on in much of central Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:20 AM

I await an informed response as to whether the crime required knowledge of falsity.

I have seen news footage of Irving's lawyers expressing astonishment about the sentence, and their intentions to appeal on sentence, which would seem unlikely if the sentence actually passed was mandatory.

I have also heard that application is due to be made for Irving to serve most of his sentence in an English nick - where I expect he will find some sympathisers!

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM

oh bugger! won't they take him at guantanamo bay?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM

Having knowledge of how Austria sentences other crimes would add perspective to this case.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:11 AM

"90s, he said that was when he learned it had happened."

The man is thus obviously a discredited cretin as a researcher - one of the main skills of a historian.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:10 AM

The evidence that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust is as overwhelming as the evidence that Al-Quaeda terrorists were responsible for the events of 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:42 AM

Irving's defence in Austria was that in 1998 he had discovered evidence that the chambers at Auschwitz really existed, so he changed his mind.
In 2000 he told the High Court in London ""I deny that millions died in the gas chambers because of the logistical problems for a start.....There are so many Auschwitz survivors going around, in fact the number increases as the years go past, which is biologically very odd to say the least. I'm going to form an association of Auschwitz Survivors, Survivors of the Holocaust and other liars, or the ASSHOLS."

No comment.
nick

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:53 AM

So being an asshole is reason to go to prison. Well, they better start building more because if being Stupid is a crime there won't be many of us left on the outside.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:33 AM

David Irving is the very opposite of stupid. certain kinds of asshole do indeed need to be in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:57 AM

Freda, you are probably right to say we should take Irving's recantation with a pinch of salt (wonderful though it is, for me, to see him reduced to making it). I don't think it's such a good idea to get worked up about the fact that he is still trying to sell his books. That would never be reason enough for me to want to see someone imprisoned. How could I then excoriate the catholic church for its book-burning history?

Wolfgang, it is disingenuous to suggest that Austria has no options. For a start, Austria's record in dealing with war criminals is worse than any country's, according to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre. In other words they have discretion about whether to make arrests, prosecute etc. In the cases of at least 40 people accused of Nazi war crimes (ie not just accused of saying the wrong things) they have chosen to take no action.

I cannot put a date on it, but Austria has been free for many years to make and amend its own laws. The one in question here was, in fact, amended some time in the 1990s. I don't know what the effect was of that amendment, but it would have had nothing to do with Soviet concerns.

Richard, as far as I have ever seen, it is sufficient to deny the Holocaust. Whether this is done in good faith does not seem to be a factor. There are similar but less extensive and less draconian laws in France, Germany, Poland Israel, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:01 AM

How can it be done in good faith?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:10 AM

Much as I despise Irving's rot, I equally despise the fact that he would go to prison for it. Where's a Voltaire (or whomever) when you need him?

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM

Richard was raising a question of intent, Freda. Anyone can believe anything, particularly where there is a paucity of documentary or forensic evidence (as there is for instance on the question of the extent to which Hitler controlled and directed the Final Solution). It boggles my mind that people can believe the world was created in six days, 10,000 years ago, and that others believe in Voodoo. But idiotic though such beliefs are, they are sincerely held by many intelligent people.

According to my definition (which may not be the best) anyone who says what he believes is acting in good faith.

Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison.
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:46 AM

As Fionn says, anyone who says what they believe on a matter over which there is no evidence, or where the evidence is prone to alternative interpretations, can justify themselves. But anyone who makes statements they know to be false has no such defense.

In Irving's case, if he'd just said that Hitler didn't know about the extermination of Jews, he'd be safe. Even though most people would reckon it's a safe bet he did, we don't have evidence one way or the other.

But he went and said that the extermination of Jews never happened. Now this is a statement that's so easy to disprove, it's beyond credibility that he could truly believe this. The only possible explanation is that he was lying, and this lying has successfully increased his bank balance over the years. In other words, like any other con artist, the only belief he's been imprisoned for is the belief that he could get away with it.

Graham.