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BS: Poverty in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:56 PM ....while suckin' on their silver spoons... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:00 PM Bobert: In case you have not noticed, I have avoided attacking you personally. I merely point out that you claim ststics are for loosers, post stastics, refuse to back up those statics and complain when someone else gives a statistic. Have you pointed out any root causes of poverty? Evidently some people here think that Exxon causes poverty because they keep mentioning how much money they make. Something that was left off of that previous story is that the parents were paid $28,000 per year for fostering those boys, and the state forked it over. "The Jacksons adopted the boys through DYFS and were receiving a stipend from the state, which peaked at about $28,000 a year before the oldest child turned 18 last year, according to Camden County Prosecutor's Office. Sarubbi said locks apparently were used to keep the boys from the kitchen and that the children were fed uncooked pancake batter, cereals and peanut butter and jelly." After spending nearly three weeks alone and surviving on raw pasta, mustard and ketchup, a 2-year-old Jacksonville, Florida, girl was in good spirits Tuesday morning at a hospital, officials told CNN. "The child is doing well," said David Foreman, a spokesman for Wolfson Children's Hospital, where the toddler was brought for treatment. "She was sitting up this morning, talking and laughing with the nurses." Officer Ken Jefferson, spokesman for the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office, said the little girl was brought to the hospital Monday, suffering from malnutrition, after an officer responded to a call from the child's father, Ogden Lee. Lee, 33, was at the apartment of his estranged wife, 22-year-old Dakeysha Lee, who has been incarcerated since September 10. He told the responding officer that the apartment manager had let him into the apartment, where he found his daughter. "The child basically survived on raw pasta, mustard, ketchup," Jefferson said. Lee told the officer that he had been seeking a divorce from the mother and "had limited contact with his daughter during this process." "After having no contact for several weeks, he vigorously tried to make contact," the police report said. Jefferson said the mother was charged Monday with an intentional act of child abuse for leaving her daughter alone, notifying no one of the circumstances. She will appear at an arraignment hearing Tuesday morning, he said. According to records from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Dakeysha Lee had a pair of misdemeanor arrests as a juvenile, and was serving time for shoplifting and a bad check, both misdemeanors." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:23 PM I still don't get your point. Are you saying that these failed parents (to put it mildly) and others like them are the causes of poverty? Are you saying that the unfortunate children are the causes of poverty? Are you saying that government social assistance programs are the causes of poverty? Or what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:25 PM The root cause of poverty is greed coupled with power... This country has the resources and wealth so that no child should be going to bed hungry tonight... These kids don't make the choice to go to bed hungry... They don't make the choice to live in a housing project where gunshots are heard every night... They don't make the choice to live in a one parent home... 'or to see their mom get up at 4:30 in the morning to catch a bus to a job that pays her $6.00 an hour... No, these choices have been made by the greedy people, who BTW are the ***real*** welfare class in America... Yeah, it's their game, their rules, their, their, their... ..and when I read your stuff, Rickey, you reek of folks like them as you try to shift the blame away from your own greed and power and place it on choices that a hungry kid is making tonight... You show no compassion... No understanding... No Christainity... No nuthin'... Just endless posts of just how folks who have either lived the reality of poverty or those of us who have deeply witnessed it and it's horrid anti-human effects are in your little smug word...wrong... No, sir, you are wrong... This isn't just my opinion but the opinion of Ghandi, Jesus, Mohammed, Dr. King and just about anyone who has ever lived who knew the meaning of ***compassion***... Go back to yer silver spoon... Jesus told Mathew that there is "nothing hidden that won't one day be found and no secret kept that one day won't be public knowledge" and with each of you posts you prove those thoughts to be very true... You are like the tin-man.... Heartless... You ask what the cause of poverty is??? I told you... Lyndon Johnson told you... Bobby Keenedy told you... Martin Luther King told you... A 100,000 people told you in the "Poor People's Campaign"... Yet, you do yer Vinnie Barborina thing... "Duhh, you talkin' to me???" Yeah, we are... Get off yer butt an' spend a little less time harrassin' me and a little more time trying to make a difference in the ***real world***... A good start would be to take yer rich 24/7 computer butt down to yer local women's shelter and ask if there's anything that you could do... You do that and the rest will fall into place... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:00 PM Oh, yeah, in case I didn't specifically say it... ... yeah, I think ***we*** collectively owe a share of our national wealth to black people... We collectively stole them from their families... We collectively sold them as chattle... We collectively used them as slaves and/or peasant class workers to build our infastructure... We collectively set them free with absolutely ***nuthing***... We collectively treated them as second class people... We collectively lynched them... We collectively made them feel as if they were no welcome in the only country they knew... And we collectively continue to some degree doing all the things I've just mentioned... And it no wonder that though there are more white folks (in numbers) who are poor there is a much larger percentage of balck people who are poor... Much, much larger... So, yes, we collectively have some "repair"ations to make to blacl people... Do think diffeerntly is teerribly racist and narrowminded... But, we also owe "repair"ations to coal miners in West Virginia, to hunkies who ran the steel mills in Youngstownh, Ohio, to migrant workers who have put food on our tables going back as long as nayone reading this has been alive... Yes, we collectively owe all the oppressed people.... That ***was*** waht the War on Poverty was supposed to be about until rich Republicans hired enough PR people and spent enough $$$ on PR ads to slam anyone who wasn't greedy... Thay slammed liberals... They slammed Warl Warren... They slammed Bobby Kennedy... No, they friggin'paid some poor shmo who didn't even know who Bobby Kennedy was to kill him... Same with Martin Luther King... If you can't shut 'um up opne way, do it another is what the right wing in America is all about... "Yeah, I don't have to give them niggers nuthin'... Hey, I didn't do that..." Yeah, this has been the battle cry of the rich, the greedy, the powerfull... What a bunch of totally anti-human, greedy, uncompassionate, unChristain crap... So for the smug-among-us... Screw you... You know what I'm sayin' is right... You want to end poverty??? Change your thinking and the rest will follow... You can't have it all!!! Bring back the funding for breakfast programs so that poor kids would not only have an reason to go to school but also get at least one decent meal a day... Restore child care programs... Fund mental health... Pass a real mnimum wage law... Provide health care for every American... Put yer money where your mouth is on education.... The list goes on... Google "Great Society".... Yeah, this is all about ***collective*** values... We have ***collectively*** created proverty and the only way to reverse it is if we ***collectively*** change our values and proirities... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:20 PM Well put, Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:52 PM Bobert: You are not smug are you? Now what is your message for poor people? Is it "you are owed a living"? If that is not the message, what is it? Seems to me the if "we" owe minority groups anything, "we" owe the Asians just as much as nay of them. How come having something owed to the Asians is not holding them back? Look at their graduation rates. It is better than the Caucasians. You can't answer the hard questions so instead you try to belittle me. I haven't belittled you. I am just pointing out your inconsistencies. Are you saying that Bill Cosby and Jesse Lee Peterson don't know what they are talking about? Are they heartless, smug and born with silver spoons? I don't know about Peterson but Bill Cosby was raised up poor as dirt in Philly back before the civil rights movement but due to good parents, none of that held him back. He worked after school to help the family. He was in the Navy. He is described as an American actor, comedian, television producer, and activist. I don't hear him moaning and groaning about the biggest corporation in the world making the biggest profit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:02 PM "Now what is your message for poor people?" I don't think his message is for POOR people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:00 AM A wise woman made a wise post a few days ago. Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie - PM Date: 17 Mar 07 - 05:34 PM I would like to see Dickey hollering down into a dark well and, in return, hearing nothing. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: kendall Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:10 AM I get a kick out of clueless people talking about poverty. It's like talking about far flung foreign countries. There are those who have read about them and those who have been there.I really think that those of us who have been there have a better picture than those who have read about them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 24 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM I think that's why it should be mandatory for policy makers to live for one month on a welfare check. Give each of them a different scenario, ie: single mom with one, two and three kids, single male, single female, disabled, elderly and so on. At least when they sit down together, they would have some experience on which to base their decisions. I also think it should be required for teachers to take at least an introduction to sociology or cultural anthropology. In fact, the trouble with most of our large, archaic institutions is that the bureacrats that make the decisions have absolutely no idea what its like to live the lives of those who are being effected by their decisions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: kendall Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:19 PM "Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,sco Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:36 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:10 AM One value that I think mg has been articulating (Mary, if I'm wrong, please jump in and correct me) and I have been missing in reading her posts, is frugality, meaning the careful use of material resources. If one values frugality, one takes pride and finds satisfaction in being frugal. If one doesn't value frugality, one resents having to be frugal, and resents being expected to be frugal. I wonder if what mg has been trying to say is this; Teach young people the skills that are needed to be frugal. That is an excellent idea. From her posts, I also think mg values frugality, and practices that value in her life in a very real way. But our dominant culture does not place high value on frugality. If mg's solutions to poverty around teaching home economics, etc., are to be successful, the kids being taught need also to be taught to value frugality. That is much more difficult, since it is not a widely held value in our post-modern American culture.' My paternal grandparents placed great value in being frugal. Both of them grew-up on poor, eastern Kentucky dirt farms. When young, they were frugal by necessity, but also by religious upbringing. They held to the same standards of frugality throughout their lives, even once it was no longer necessary for them to be as frugal. For them, it had the force of moral imperative. I am not frugal. And I know very few people who truly are. I don't make alot of money--social workers, teachers and the like never do. If I were truly frugal, and truly moderate-if I consistently put my needs ahead of my wants, I would have no debt right now, would be certain I have put away enough money for retirement, and would consistently have enough money in savings to fix the roof when it needed it, go to the beach for a long weekend occasionally or for a whole week every few years without using a credit card, or pay cash for a new refrigerator when the one I have finally dies (which will be soon, I'm afraid.) And I am not saying I live extravagantly, am a spend-thrift or am in debt up to my ears. But worries about money and finances are constant and chronic. Car or home repairs get left undone because I don't want to go into debt to do them, but am not willing to be frugal enough to have the money put away to do them. Mostly I feel like I don't make enough money to be able to put that money away. More truthfully, I don't live frugally enough to have the money put away. In two generations what was once a pretty widely held value in our culture has nearly gone extinct. Frugality as a value has been replaced with consumerism as a value. When those of us who do have some material resources are not frugal with them, we use more than our fair share of the available resources. Directly and indirectly, we are contributing to poverty in our country. The dominant society expects those who live in poverty to adapt our values regarding, for example, education. And I think most people who live in poverty in this country do value education. I don't think any of us run into many adults who quit school who will say, in hindsight, that they don't wish they had that high school diploma or GED. They well may say, however, that it was not, and still is not, an attainable goal. We can also expect those who live in poverty (speaking in generalities) to hold the dominant cultural value of consumerism. If I blame a poor person for not being frugal, it is the skillet calling the kettle black. Is a poor person just as responsible for not being frugal as a person who is not poor? Yes. But, I will again say that blame and responsibility are not synonyms. It is unjust to blame the person living in poverty for not being frugal if I do not also blame myself and others who are not poor for not being frugal. And I will say that many poor people with whom I work, while not nearly as frugal as were, say, my grandparents, are much more frugal than am I or anyone else I know who is not poor. Back to the definition of frugal-the careful use of material resources. For those who live in abject poverty, they have few material resources with which to be frugal. No matter how frugal they may be with the very minimal resources they have, the resources are not sufficient for basic needs to be met. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:14 AM That is a fantastic post. Bravo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:27 AM "No, they friggin'paid some poor shmo who didn't even know who Bobby Kennedy was to kill him... Same with Martin Luther King" Bobert: Who paid whom to shoot Lincoln and Reagan? You seem able to make broad general statements but you can't answer specific questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:18 AM Excellent post, Janie. When you are poor, instant gratification makes more sense than being frugal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM Yes, very good point, Janie... Our culture is not frugal.... It is not taught... It is not even made to be a life style that is admirable but... ...quite the opposite... Our society has had it rammed down its throat to consume, consume, consume... "Man come on the TV tell me how white my shirts should be but he can't be a man 'cause he don't smoke the same cigarttes as me..." Been goin' on a long time with ad-men, peer pressure, money lenders all in cohoots to keep folks consumin' and more importantly... ...in debt!!! Didn't use to be like that... When I grew up in the 50's in Northern Virginia everyone was purdy much, ahhhh, for lack of a better term...middle class... Norhtern Virgina in the 50's meant living in a 2 or 3 bedroom house, not McMansions but not slums either... We had Congressmen living in out sub-divison.... We had generals... We had war heros... We had bankers... But everyone lived frugaly by today's standards and debt was something associated purdy much with buying houses and cars... Oh sure, there were a few "charge cards" around for store like Sears or Montgomery Wards but you paid the balance every month... But these days our society is not frugal... It is an out-of-vougue value and for folks who are poor it is very frustrating to be told that to be a success you have to own __________ 'r ___________ and to not have the resources to do it... Actually is is downright cruel... And it makes people who are poor feel like failures which gets internalized and that internalization turns to anger and it all becomes a very vicious cycle that doesn't help people learn to make better (for lack of a better word) choices for themselves... And the absolute boorish display of greed/consumerism is blasted 24/7 on the TV... Yeah, Boss Hog could wear the spoils of his success (theft) with a little more compassion and class but no... He flaunts it... So, as part of a real national effort to end poverty Boss Hog needs to be re-educated to first stop his boorish consuming but more importantly to be made to see that he hasn't earned the share of wealth that he falsely believes that he has... No, the playing filed is not level... He needs to understand this and he needs to go back to doing waht his parents and grandparents did and that is to live a more frugal lifestyle... (But, Bobert, if Boss Hog didn't consume so much then the economy would crumble!!!) Bullfeathers... Actually the economy would do just fine and so would the planet as people would be making decisions not only what ad-men say they should but on what is healthy for society and the planet... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:41 AM "When those of us who do have some material resources are not frugal with them, we use more than our fair share of the available resources. Directly and indirectly, we are contributing to poverty in our country." I'm not so sure about the economics of this - whatever its evils, it seems to me that consmerism does create a great deal of employment - and I'm speaking as someone who is frugal to the point of being a skinflint; I have to admit that I don't do my part to create that employment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM Good point, Bobert. Credit creates something else. A false image. Many folks who have credit, use it to create the illusion that they have more than they actually do. Without the credit to fall back on, they too, would join the ranks of the impoverished. In fact, many people are just one step ahead of the creditors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: kendall Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:32 PM I once heard a poor man say "I don't make enough money to have a budget." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:00 PM I once heard a poor man say, "I don't make enough money to have a budgie." Okay, I was just leaving ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:26 PM Janie: A wise man said in a post long ago: "Bobert, you wouldn't know a fact if it fell out of a tree and landed on top of you." I still haven't heard any response out of Bobert about why the Asian minority is not held back by the same reasons he gives for poverty, Jut name calling. I still haven't called him any names. I just ask for some clarifcations of his facts and some answers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:31 PM Hi meself, Economics is not my strong suit, but I guess my response to that is, at what real cost? At what wages and working conditions? In the USA, the consumerism that has become the norm is made possible by cheap, foreign labor who work at wages and in conditions that are comparable to slave labor, while causing a substantial loss of jobs in one industry after another in the USA. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM Bobert: "Bring back the funding for breakfast programs" Looks to me like it didn't go anywhere : State by State Performance While the national ratio was 44:100, thirteen states served school breakfast to at least 50 out of every 100 low-income children eating school lunch: State....School Breakfast to School Lunch Ratio Oregon...............55.9 West Virginia........55.7 Kentucky.............55.4 Oklahoma.............54.7 Mississippi..........54.5 South Carolina.......54.1 Texas................53.8 New Mexico...........53.2 Vermont..............53.2 Arkansas.............53.0 Georgia..............52.8 Louisiana............51.2 North Carolina.......50.5 Six states served school breakfast to fewer than one in three low income children eating school lunch: State School Breakfast to School Lunch Ratio Connecticut..............33.0 New Hampshire............32.7 Alaska...................32.0 Utah.....................31.0 Illinois.................28.4 Wisconsin................26.5 Five states had double-digit increases in the number of children receiving a free or reduced price breakfast in 2004-2005 over the year before: Percent Increase in Number of Low-Income Children Receiving School Breakfast New Jersey......39.1% Idaho ..........17.0% Nevada .........15.6% Utah............15.5% Wisconsin.......11.2% By not reaching the 55:100 ratio reached by the best performing states, underperforming states are foregoing significant federal funding. In 2004-2005, the ten states foregoing the most federal funds missed out on a combined $249.4 million and leaving 1.2 million potentially eligible children unserved (almost two-thirds of the national totals): State Students Not Served Dollars Foregone California........315,101......$63,290,662 New York..........206,688......$41,760,346 Illinois..........185,221......$37,795,649 Florida ..........106,923......$21,570,936 Pennsylvania.......97,495......$19,691,487 Ohio ..............74,620......$15,146,602 Michigan...........66,904 .....$13,558,412 Wisconsin..........64,309......$12,881,144 New Jersey ........62,635......$12,623,828 Arizona............55,147......$11,125,387 http://www.frac.org/pdf/SBPscore_sum.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM Dickey, In case you haven't noticed, I'm ignorin' you because you have not ***added*** one sincle thing to this discussion... Not one... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Others, Good point, Janie... There definately is an aspect of sellin' stuff that has been made by other country's poor folks is going to have to catch up to us.... I belive that my Econ 201 professor refered to it as "floating" where stuff like this balances out over the long run... Okay, it may take awhile but there will come a point where the Chinese have so many of our dollars that a natural adjustment will take place... Throw in the political scene in this country with so many folks who once had good jobs with some decent benefits falling further and futher behind and I think that "adjustment" is going to come sooner than later... Yeah, Boss Hog has had a purdy good run this time around but if the US is going to survive itself and its corrupt government then only some adjustments will be what it takes to do so... This isn't going to come as good news to Boss Hog, who BTW, has never had it so good... Like I pointed out in my last post, there waas a time when Congressmen lived in the same neighborhoods as the mechanic at the local Ford dealership... No, I'll be the first to admit that we won't be seeing those days anymore but, if the US is to survive, the gross inequities between the "haves" and the "have nots" are going to lessen... ***Revolutions*** occur when the Boss Hogs can't be brought to the table... I am hoping that won't have to be the case hwere in the US but I am not all that sure that won't be the case and like I have said before... ...if it does come down to ***revolution*** it will start in the South with the angry NASCAR dads who have figured out that Boss Hog is using Budwiser and race cars to placate them on one hand while sticking his other hands in their pockets... I understand angry NASCAR dads because I have spent my life living with them and there's ont thing about these folks that I have learned is that once they turn on you they ain't turnin' back... So if there are Boss Hogs reading this, you might wants thaink about just how long you think you can get away with screwing folks... But, then again... Historically, Boss Hog has never hasd the sense to know when he has stolen too much... And, yeah, this is also all about poverty... If angry NASCAR dad figures out that he will work until the day he dies to pay off the debt to the "company store" then when he hears discussionas about "poverty" he will be less inclined to blame the victims... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:27 PM Okay, I'm going to try to take on Dickey's recurring question re: success of the Asian minority as opposed to certain other minorities. If you consider what's been said on this list, your question has been answered to some degree indirectly. Much, if not most, of the discussion has focussed on what could be called the "psychology" of poverty, rather than the systemic (mis)distribution of wealth. Where the latter has been faulted, it's been in relation to underfunding of health, education, and social welfare programs - but, as I say, much of the focus of this discussion has been on the kind of mindset that helps to keep people in poverty. In other words, no one seems to be denying that there are ideas, attitudes, outlooks, and - it's been addressed explicitly - values, that function to keep people in poverty (your posts seem to imply that none of the rest of us will admit this). Where the real difference seems to be is that you seem to feel that if people have such ideas, etc., then their misfortunes are their own fault, and that they deserve poverty, while some of the rest of us feel that they are not necessarily entirely to blame for their psychology, and to some extent are the products of social injustice. So - I'm going to relate an anecdote which I feel conveys the crux of the issue better rather than would a long and convoluted argument. I saw this story about a year ago on the Canadian national (CBC) news. It concerned the visit of a black American in his eighties to a small outport in Newfoundland, and this visit was quite a public event there. This man, whose name I promptly forgot, had been a sailor in WWII, and had been involved in a shipwreck off the coast of Newfoundland. He and some of the rest of the crew swam to shore, and found themselves on a narrow rocky shore, trapped there by high steep cliffs. It was the middle of a stormy night and they were freezing; he sheltered himself in the midst of some rocks and prepared to die. However, the men of this nearby outport rappelled down the cliffs, at considerable risk to themselves, and were able to carry and hoist the survivors up the cliffs, and from there take them to their village. By the time this black man was discovered by one of the rescuers, he just wanted to die, and would not co-operate, but the rescuer forced him up, and made him walk back and forth on the beach till it was his turn to be taken up. After which, he was taken to a house, stripped down and put into a hot tub, where several women scrubbed the oil off him, at which point they discovered he WAS a black man - he assumed the game was up then, but they went on with their work as if that meant nothing. The next morning, he and the other survivors were taken away on another ship ... Now this man, sixty years later, described that as a transformative event in his life. Before that, he said, no white person had ever spoken a kind word to him, but here, these white men risked their lives to save him. He stayed in the navy for some years, and demanded and fought to be allowed to do such things as to take a radio operator's course, and a diving course, which had traditionally been closed to blacks; later he went into business, and became successful and wealthy. He began to speak to black audiences, particularly of young people, about his experience and what it meant. The implication of his story was that through this war-time experience, he came to realize that he was just as good as anyone else, and it was that realization that allowed him to get ahead. Otherwise, he would likely have remained just another person living in poverty who "deserved" to live in poverty because of his piss-poor attitude. Was his message to the poor kids he talked to that they deserved to be poor? No - his message was that they did NOT deserve to be poor - and they didn't have to be poor - (That man, by the way, made several visits back to that outport over the years, and made several big contributions to the community, including a community-center, as I recall). Here's another one. Does the name Lesra Martin ring a bell? He was the kid who ended up playing an instrumental role in the freeing of Hurricane Carter. He was taken from a Brooklyn ghetto by a group of Canadians and brought to Toronto - they found that although he had passed grade 10 (as I recall), he couldn't read ... With their help, he graduated with honours in a couple of years, got a law degree, and eventually became a Crown Prosecutor, the equivalent of a D.A., I suppose. Meanwhile, back in Brooklyn, his siblings led the "typical" ghetto life; one brother shot and killed, another in and out of jail ... The difference? Lesra had been given opportunity, and had come to believe in himself, through a longer-term transformative experience. Now, what those of us who work in the "helping" professions try to do is give less dramatic transformative experiences to the people we work with every day. Sometimes we are a bit like that rescuer trying to force someone who has given up back onto his feet. We try to convince them that they are as good as anybody else, that they can achieve what others have achieved, and we try to steer them toward opportunity. And, yes, we get distressed when tight-fisted governments and mean-spirited politicians seem to be doing their best to limit that opportunity everywhere we look. Now for the Asians. First of all, there is a selection process before they even get here. As a general rule, those without self-confidence, ambition and coping skills don't get here. And often they come from backgrounds that have given them very solid and strict rules of behaviour, and clearly defined roles in family, community and work life; the Chinese and Confucianism is a prime example. And they are not arriving on our shores with internalized notions of being second-class citizens. And, for that matter, many of them are not arriving with nothing; I have no idea what the percentages are, but there are many Asians immigrating with university educations and professions ... Okay, I've said enough; you should get the idea ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:34 PM Bobert: Is your claim that funding for shool breakfasts whent somehwere and needed to be brought back true or untrue? You ignore me because you cannot support your statements or statistics and cannot answer simple questions. By the way, your last post had nothing to do with poverty except in other countries. It is entirely a rant against capitalisim. It belongs in another thread about capitalisim. Now Bobert, do you think Bill Cosby and that Peterson guy are wrong about poverty? Notice that this is on subject. _______yes _______no |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:41 PM What does Bill Cosby say about poverty? Remind us, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:21 AM Do you know what's on the menue Dickey? No! I didn't think so! And those stats are still far to low. Bill doesn't want to be reminded. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:29 AM meself is right, dickey. You cannot impose the values of one culture on another culture. There is nothing about N. American culture, at present, that encourages anything other than mindless consumerism. You're going to have to try a little harder, dickey. You keep comparing apples to oranges. This has been pointed out to you previously. You are boring and have nothing to say of any importance. How old are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:56 AM Bill Cosby is right when he talkes about balck people taking on personal responsibility but wrong... ,,,in assuming that the conditions are right for any greater opportunity for collective upward mobility... So, for him to say to blacks, under the current conditions, "Pull yourselves up" is not only cruel, but unrealistic... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:42 PM Even Dianvan, whom I seldom agree with, said: "I quite often wonder why some people seem to dwell in poverty while others are able to lift themselves out of misery. I think it may have something to do with the ability to network, socially, and the ability to access services and goods that are available." I think this should be the message for poor people. Seems to me the Civil Rights leaders need to be telling poor people how to overcome poverty. To empower them rather than tell them it is the fault of so and so and we need to fix that situation or you will always be poor. For about the third time, What enables the Asian minority to overcome poverty when other minorities cannot? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:58 PM Ho hum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM My cookie got eaten somehow. The last post was mine. Breaking the Silence HENRY LOUIS GATES JR. Monday, March 26, 2007 New York Times ''Go into any inner-city neighborhood,'' Barack Obama said in his keynote address to the Democratic National Convention, ''and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach kids to learn. They know that parents have to parent, that children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white.'' In a speech filled with rousing applause lines, it was a line that many black Democratic delegates found especially galvanizing. Not just because they agreed, but because it was a home truth they'd seldom heard a politician say out loud. Why has it been so difficult for black leaders to say such things in public, without being pilloried for ''blaming the victim''? Why the huge flap over Bill Cosby's insistence that black teenagers do their homework, stay in school, master standard English and stop having babies? Any black person who frequents a barbershop or beauty parlor in the inner city knows that Mr. Cosby was only echoing sentiments widely shared in the black community......" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM "For about the third time, What enables the Asian minority to overcome poverty when other minorities cannot? " It is often the case that immigrants are able to 'raise themselves from relative poverty' by acquiring investment money from other people. The problem is for many other folks, there IS no investment money. The above is a generalization, but an apt one. Some places in Canada have been 'economically taken over' by SE Asian people, and I don't begrude them that. But to suggest it was done by money they made in Canada starting from scratch is balderdash. People do not rise from poverty without a helping hand up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM In fact, under the great Mr Mulroney, Canada brought in a policy to fast-track the immigration process for (primarily Asian) immigrants who commit themselves to invest so many tens-of-thousands of their own money in Canada. Many wealthy Asians have gained (bought) Canadian citizenship under this mercenary policy. (So much for "Give us your tired, your hungry ... "). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:59 PM So it is a lack of investment money that keeps minorities other than the Asians from completing high school? Was it investment money that enabled Bill Cosby to emerge from poverty or was the support of his family? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:03 PM Well, what Dickey is not capable of internalizing is that Asians came to this country as immigrants, not slaves.... Slaves were not afforded an eductaion... Then along came the Civil Wra (which it wasn't...), the Emmancipation proclamation, Reconstruction and Jim Crow which kept black people basically uneducated or grossly under-educated until Brown v, Topeka Board of Education in 1953... Then it took years after that to make any progress toward black being afforded access to education... Blacks still do not enjoy equal access to an education as Asians ansd whites... Part of the problem is this frustrating cycle of keeping blacks segreagtaed which, inspite of the progress since '53 is still a major problem in many communities accross America... But bottom line, the Asian argument is not an argument at all but another patented right wing distraction... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:10 PM Was Bill Cosby calling for a reduction of funding for education, health, and social welfare programs? Just wondering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:14 PM Oprah Winfrey Bio "Oprah Winfrey rose from poverty and a troubled youth to become the most powerful and influential woman in television and, according to Forbes Magazine, the world's most highly paid entertainer. Though primarily recognized as a talk show hostess, Winfrey also produces and occasionally acts in television movies and feature films. Winfrey's parents, who never married, were teens when she was born in rural Mississippi. She was originally named Orpah after a woman from the Book of Ruth but a spelling mistake on the birth certificate changed it to Oprah. She spent her childhood growing up in abject poverty on her deeply religious grandmother's farm. When she was older, Winfrey moved in with her mother in Milwaukee, WI. This proved a difficult time as Winfrey alleges she was repeatedly sexually molested by male relatives. Winfrey became a bit of a wild child during her early teens, experimenting with sex and drugs until the age of 14 when she gave birth to a premature baby. It died shortly after, and upon recovering, Winfrey chose to live with her father in Nashville. It was under his stern guidance that Winfrey found discipline, stability, and the inspiration to excel in school and change her life..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:16 PM Well, myslef, I've heard Bill Cosby a few times an' what he basically says is "pull yourselves up by your boot straps"... He isn't into programs... Hey, he's a rich guy, ain't he??? He is no spokesman for black folks... He represents the ruling class... He is not only bigoted but doesn't even seen to have any level of understanding of American history... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:18 PM Dickey, look at the Head Start Programs, Bushes poster child for the poor. A couple yrs ago he froze funding. So the program now suffers each yrs as costs for food, teachers, site, facilities & rent increases as well as wages & resources go up. This was the poor program for pre schooling & eduaction. This is the same reason why his "No Children Left Behind" act is a reversal for the poor. It gets worse each year. We are going backwards. Granted this didn't start with him it's been going on for at least a 1/4 of a century. We were doing better when Crosby was a kid. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:25 PM Slavery in America "...But slavery itself was not destroyed. In California after the Civil War, thousands of young Asian women were enslaved to serve as prostitutes for the Gold-Rush settlers. Chinese men were virtually enslaved to build the railroads and develop the Western mining industry..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:27 PM Dickey, For the last time, I would sooner drink liquid shit than engage in conversation with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:07 PM Dickey - Do not misrepresent my statement. Your interpretation is way off the mark. Here is my key phrase, "...the ability to network, socially, and the ability to access services." Lets not forget that the Chinese culture has a long standing and deeply held stereotype of Blacks. That makes Afro-Americans the bottom of the totem pole in racist terms. Native Americans may be more disadvantaged today because of reservations, systemic sexual abuse and alcolholism which has also led to some pretty horrible stereotypes and discrimination. But for racists, the Blacker you are, the lower you are. Chinese, by the way, are whiter than most White people. The separation and destruction of African families as a result of slavery resulted in a total break-down of language, social networks and cultural values. Anyone who can climb out of the years of segregation and discrimination that followed, is the exception, not the rule. While some Chinese were subjected to less than adequate working conditions and pay, they were able to retain their language and traditions. In fact, the language and traditions are so important to the Chinese, that to this day they encourage their English speaking children to learn either Cantonese or Mandarin so that their values can be transmitted. Their social networks within North America are vast and I doubt if even you, Dickey, could live up to their family expectations. And don't forget, Dickey, the majority of the Chinese in America today are not the immigrants that came to work on the railroad or the in the mines. Many of them arrived from Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan, and are from the educated, business class. There are many different Asian cultures and its impossible to lump them all together and claim that they were all enslaved because they worked on the railroad. That is a far cry from decades of slavery and segregation of African Americans, where many were denied even a basic education. Its very difficult to encourage your children to read if you can't read, yourself. Even if you can only read in your first language, you can still pass on to your children a love of books. Chinese have always valued education. How many Africans do you think could read when they were brought to America as slaves? How many understood the value of education? How many could communicate with each other in their own language? Let me guess - Oprah's daddy valued education and Bill Cosby's folks could read. Obama is highly educated and my guess is that his family could read, too. All three of the above are more White than Black, Dickie, I can almost guarantee that. I don't think they would disagree. They try to relate, yes, but I doubt that they have the experience to be able to speak for the majority of African-Americans or anyone who has lived a life of poverty with no encouragement from anyone. We, as a society, can change this but only if we have the will. Unfortunately, there will always be Dickies to make excuses for the greedy and turn away when they see hunger on their own doorsteps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:23 PM the Naturalization Act of 1870 granted the right of naturalization to "aliens of African nativity and to persons of African descent," Chinese immigrants would be forced to wait until 1943 before obtaining the right to become citizens. Filipinos and Indians would not gain the right of naturalization until 1946. http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2004_eatingbitterness.asp#note7 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:19 PM "anyone who has lived a life of poverty with no encouragement from anyone" Exactly Dianavan, Who has given them encouragement? Their parents? All they get is sympathy from their "leaders" who turn everything into a race issue. ''A lot of us,'' Mr. Obama argues, ''hesitate to discuss these things in public because we think that if we do so it lets the larger society off the hook. We're stuck in an either/or mentality -- that the problem is either societal or it's cultural.'' It's important to talk about life chances -- about the constricted set of opportunities that poverty brings. But to treat black people as if they're helpless rag dolls swept up and buffeted by vast social trends -- as if they had no say in the shaping of their lives -- is a supreme act of condescension. Only 50 percent of all black children graduate from high school; an estimated 64 percent of black teenage girls will become pregnant. (Black children raised by female ''householders'' are five times as likely to live in poverty as those raised by married couples.) Are white racists forcing black teenagers to drop out of school or to have babies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM Poverty occurs on a significant scale in a place where there is 'enough' to go around because of grossly inequitable distribution of resources. It just seems logical, in this instance, that concentrated wealth depends on the existence of a rate of poverty within the population that is far in excess of what the available resources suggest is either unavoidable, and/or mainly attributable to the 'failings' of most of those people who live in a state of poverty. Racism (or tribalism, or choose-your-religionism, depending on what part of the world you happen to inhabit) does not cause poverty. Institutionalized racism is, however, a very useful and efficient vehicle by which a society or dominant culture may assign a large number of the necessary number of people to be part of an exploitable underclass. It provides the rationale and 'moral' justification needed for a society to do so, while letting most of it's better off inhabitants be able to go to sleep at night with a clear conscience. It further serves to create and help maintain the social conditions necessary to insure the continuity of an underclass. Assuming the same history of social and economic conditions and policies exclusive of slavery, I opine that the number of people living in poverty in the USA today would be the same, even if slavery had never existed. Demographic characteristics of the underclass would be different--as a society we would have identified other groups to serve disproportionately as an underclass. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:46 AM Oh why not...........300! |
