Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:40 AM

The song is life as its best - or worst. And if the song has a fine tune, why not sing it? Wish I had your problems only ...

A German song about a warning to young girls of the soldiers billetting in town (with a fine tune) I didn't sing for some time until I was father of two daughters. Having been young and serving my time I know best what those guys want, and so I started to sing the song, often in the presence of my girls.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:06 AM

Les in Chorlton insisted:

So, would you sing this beast of the oral and written traditon?

Given the word "beast", I know the answer you want.

My answer is, "You betcha, I'd sing it!" It's a good song, and I don't see any "beast" about it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:48 PM

Good point Dave, bad choice of the word beast on my part.

My original point concerned the treatment Peggy gets from the Soldier who seems to get away with it. I don't want to endorse violence to women just because it's a good song.

The other point about the song is that lots of people have had a hand in it, the folk process I believe, no problem with that, very much the opposite. Like most songs that have passed through the oral tradition they are not a puer and simple message from long ago they are the product of cultural evolution and sometimes have the marks of a number of cultures.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:00 AM

True to my word (as is invariable) I sang "Wee Cooper" at the club Sunday night. Good, small turn-out considering the day. Passed around printed copies of the chorus (Nickety-nackety...)

All sang along heartily. Minding that's a relatively conservative/huggie crowd (but not violently so) it went over quite well. No one seemed to object to the sentiments. You know, in song, in context. Of course, no one expects "a gentle wife" these days, either.

I've never worried about PC but I do self-censor if I believe a song/line to be actually harmful to any group. I can't imagine this song might promote wife beating.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:19 AM

Whu Oh Why does this ridiculous so called Political Correctness thing have to be raised about songs in the Tradition ?? The songs are 'Traditional' and are set 'way back then' when everybody's perspective differred greatly from ours . The mere singing of a good song with a good chorus about Fox Hunting , or Whaling , does not indicate that the singer supports Fox Hunting , or the mass slaughter of whales ! Equally , the fact that I fully believe in equal pay for equal work for women and men does NOT mean I will refuse to sing any old song in which the women are regarded as inferior IF it is a good song .
       We are in the same situation with the people who say Kipling was a racist - He was simply expressing the views of people AT THAT TIME - And what about "You're a better man than I am Gunga Din " ??

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: LesB
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM

Why would you not sing it? It's a folk song. I have a friend who used to sing "The White Hare", a song about hare hunting. He now won't sing it due to his PC ness. ( don't like fox hunting but it wouldn't stop he singing Dido Bendigo). It you take this further lets all not sing songs which mention war! Lets re-write the History books & leave out all the bits we don't like. Where will it end?
Cheers
Les (one of the other ones)

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 01:22 PM

"The songs are 'Traditional' and are set 'way back then' when everybody's perspective differred greatly from ours"

Maybe so, but as the history of "Peggy" shows Martin Carthy and AL Lloyd modified the old song in the 1960s, Ok with me but we are now singing a song that has elements more recent than some Beatles songs!

It seems to me that nobody who posts her would sing racist, anti-semitic or songs advocating child abuse. The problem is it has a great tune and a rattling set of words, but ignore it if you want Peggy comes off much worse than the soldier.   

"Whu Oh Why does this ridiculous so called Political Correctness thing have to be raised about songs in the Tradition ?"

Most people don't want to cause offence or be seen to advocate injustice. PC is one strategy for checking out people, ideas and situations. It is about as good or bad as the people who try to use it honestly or should we just call a spade a spade?

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 04:15 AM

Go on then Ms / Mr uhren

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM

Great tune and great old lyrics - what is he beefing about???

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM

I posted the original in March 2004. Most of the debate above I found interesting but I guess most people will not read the fifty odd responses. I guess we will go round and round the same points or maybe people will just not bother and it will die away.

I will repeat just two points to save people the bother of reading the collective wisdom of above:

1. The song has been changed since about 1950- 60.
2. It seems to me that nobody who posts her would sing racist, anti-semitic or songs advocating child abuse.

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

It's rather like asking if you use Nescafe Gold Blend instant decaf coffee?

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

It seems to me that people's focus has changed significantly since the resurgence of feminism around 1970.

Before that, I think the typical reaction to the words would be that the husband is an irascible old coot who just went a little too far -just far enough to make his temper amusing.   For people other than victims and social workers, the plot, set in a ballad fantasy world, wouldn't have had much to do with everyday life.

Otherwise, I don't think anybody would have been singing the song - maybe especially singers like Martin Carthy!

Perspectives have changed, however. The fact of domestic brutality is now a familiar concept. So the song suddenly seems more uncomfortably realistic to a lot more people. The husband isn't just an irascible, crazy old coot whose temper makes him amusing - he's a wife-beater, and audiences are now sensitive to the wife's plight in a way that they weren't forty-odd years ago.

Evidence that "the tradition" is essentially dead is that nobody seeme to have suggested just leaving out or changing the lines about kicking and beating. Isn't that all that's needed to fix the song up?

Finally, many Americans may not realize that "abuse" also means to speak against harshly and unjustly, curse out, etc.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 08:52 AM

Les- and would you re-write all the great classics so that they had happy endings?

This song is a report of something that probably happened, and similar things occur today. It would be received well by an audience because they could imagine it happening, so it would be a good song to sing.

As has been said many times above, singing a song doesn't mean the singer agrees with what happens in the song!

I guess we will go round and round the same points...
It sounds from your latest post that you haven't taken anything from the replies you have got to your original question.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 08:56 AM

Lighter- it is the sailor, not the husband, who shows violence to Peggy.

Isn't that all that's needed to fix the song up?
You're another one who would whitewash history to leave out the unsavoury bits, then? Not many Child ballads would be still sung if you had your way!

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM

There is a version in the bodleian library with a different ending,SEE THE THREAD.DICK MILES Peggy and the soldier, look for pavanes posts

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

The song is fiction, not history.

If you want to sing it as is, go ahead. The issue seems to be whether singing it today for an audience of strangers would be tasteful and entertaining.

If you think not, you can either stop singing it or change it.

Of course, if you're using the song simply to make a historical point, that's another story entirely.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM

Lighter, you make many good points which, no surprise I agree.

Noreen,

"Les- and would you re-write all the great classics so that they had happy endings?"

No.

I am trying to explor a larger point through this song. I guess the larger point is - how does the story content of a song affect whether we choose to sing it.

I will make this point again - most of us wouldn't sing songs with the N word in. To those who say songs should be changed I would simply say that's what people have been doing for hundreds of years. That is why their are so many versions of Geordie and loads of other songs.

It is difficult to make subtle points on here when we can't see each other and people like me are semi-literate (!). I just feel uncomfortable singing some verses of 'Peggy' and wondered if others felt the same same.

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

Thanks, Les. It's nice when somebody's listening.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

"As has been said many times above, singing a song doesn't mean the singer agrees with what happens in the song!"

We went to a community singing group. Just a bunch of folk who sung for their own enjoyment in a house. One week there were a couple of women who said they objected to The Wee Cuper O Fife which had been one of the songs done the previous week. One had even written a new end verse for it basically saying we all know it is wrong to beat your wife etc. She said she didn't think we should sing it as men shouldn't think it is ok to hit women. As I was the only man there I took it as a bit of an insult. I know very well that domestic violence is wrong and have never hit my wife. The song was good enough for my mother to sing to me when I was wee :-)

Basically they got their way because the majority of folk don't want to cause a fuss so minority views (and it was a minority view) take precedence if the minority is vocal enough.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:49 PM

They sound like the sort of women who don't like being called ladies!!

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

lighter, i am trying to point out to you , if you could bother to follow my directions to the other thread and the bodleian library, that there is another version[a very old broadside] with a completely different ending.
if you are only interested in arguing for the sake of it, then dont bother to learn more about the song

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

GSS, you make the point so slightly, I am not entirely sure your message is getting through, as so often happens on here

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

GSS,

Perhaps you could provide a link to the other thread because I couldn't find it. I did find the Bodleian reference and it was provided by Malcolm Douglas early on in this thread.

Interestingly, the version in the Bodleian has Peggy being accepted back by her husband. If you are unhappy with the version in the DT, then transcribe the version in the Bodleian and sing that instead. No wife (or lover) beating mentioned there at all.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 04:03 PM

yes, well i am not allowed to tell the pillock to fuck off ,am i?
Subject: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 11:53 AM

here is a recording of this song on you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhAeV6EfzEs

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 07:27 AM

there is also a version by downes and beer,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViD49JqfjrQ&feature   on you tube

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Continuity Jones - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:10 AM

I prefer your version Dick, but I don't think you need that rambling introduction or to show your CD. It's Youtube, not a daytime talk show with Terry Wogan. Good version though. Do you live in a log cabin btw?

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:34 AM

C Jones, fair enough.
no I dont live in a log cabin,I live in a 19 century traditional stone farmhouse.
in my humble opinion this song doesnt need to be sung too fast, plus all that stuff about her husband John[who needs to know his name]is a bit of a mouthful to sing.
here is another version BrianPreston[aka Brian Dewhurst]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKcgz4RQ5rs&feature=related

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Continuity Jones - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 12:55 PM

A 19 century traditional stone farmhouse?

I have it on good authority that stone farmhouse's ceased to be authentically 'traditional' between 1720 - 1736 (the end of the Safavid empire) and anything after that is actually a 'nu' stone farmhouse, or 'alt' stone farmhouse if it were built with a banjo.

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Continuity Jones - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:07 PM

re your anguish at her husband John. Reminds me of Willie O' The Winsbury which potters along well until the king's daughter's name turns out to be Janet, which as well as being an un-poetic and harsh sounding name, also sounds, to my ears anyway, like a character from a 1970's episode of Crossroads or Emmerdale Farm.


Will ye mairrie my dochter Janet
By the truth o your richt haun?
Or will ye marrie my dochter Janet
An A'll mak ye a laird o the laun

O A will mairry yer dochter Janet
By the truth o my richt haun
An I will mairry yer dochter Janet
But the de'il tak aa yer laun

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Tootler - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:24 PM

I liked your version too Dick, though I do agree that it would have been better to have gone straight into singing the song. Some that info about guitar tuning etc. could have been added to the written description you give when you upload the song.

I agree with you that the song is better sung at a steady tempo rather than the up tempo approach taken by the other two performances featured in this thread.

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:12 AM

I did not comment om the other performances, tempo is a very subjective decision.
fair comment Tootler, but I have been criticised by others[on other occasions] for not showing what i am doing.
so I thought showing the guitar might be helpful to aspiring guitarists

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Tootler - PM
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 08:31 PM

I did not comment om the other performances, tempo is a very subjective decision.

True, but I was really just expressing a personal preference. I see no problem in that, I had no intention of denigrating the other performances.

I thought showing the guitar might be helpful to aspiring guitarists

An excellent idea and very useful. I generally find it interesting to watch what performers are doing in these videos. I was really suggesting that some of the technical details - key, tuning, stylistic matters etc. might be more useful in the description of the video where someone watching can more easily refer back to them while watching the video. The video itself then focuses entirely on the song, though there is certainly no harm in a brief introduction to the song and even, dare I say, a little bit of a plug for your CD.

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 07:15 AM

yes, Tootler ,I agree with you.

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: pavane - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 07:32 AM

This broadside from around 1660 may be of interesttttttt


a new Ballad of the Souldier and Peggy

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: pavane - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 07:35 AM

Oops - sticky key!

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:01 AM

thats intersting , difficult to read, but does the husband forgive peggy?

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: pavane - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:08 AM

Yes he does (unlike our version) - there are two other prints, one is clearer, and the other is later. Just search the collection for Peggy and you can find them.

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: pavane - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:11 AM

Here is a link to the Bodley search page

Note that the navigation links on the results pages DO NOT WORK! They used to, but it looks like someone has now mucked up the code.

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: olddude - PM
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:14 AM

Ya did good Dick, that is a fine rendition .. I love it

Dan

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Subject: RE: Dick Miles Peggy andTheSoldier
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 01:38 PM

thankyou OLD DUDE,I have just been sitting out in the sunshine playing it is a lovely sunny evening here in West Cork, been playing a bit of concertina too

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From:         Good Soldier Schweik

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: darkriver
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Les,

As for political correctness, it seems that we need some guidlines when speaking, writing or singing about people who are not in a position to reply.

--Excellent statement! Thank you for stating it so concisely. If only more people got this....

And W y s i w y G !,
It's not the song, per se, that is (might be) offensive. It's the blaminess of the singer.

--Another excellent statement. Everything has its context.

Regards,

Doug

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM

Thanks for that, Dick. I can see why your thread did not show up on the filter "andTheSoldier" was written as a single word. I suggest you contact a mudelf (Joe Offer is usually very helpful) and get it changed to put spaces where they should be so future searches will bring it up.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:08 PM

I've been thinking about the original question, which is "Would you sing this song?"

I've decided that I might, because it provides a bridge between naive, doting 'Johnny' songs (in which a maiden is much too trusting) and the song 'As We March-ed down to Fenerio,' in which the maiden rejects the soldier come a-wooing and won't go away with him.

The song 'Peggy and the Soldier' could be viewed as a teaching song, advising young women not to go off with charming guys (esp military) who show up waggling bags of gold and making empty promises.

But I don't think I would ever sing it except as part of history lesson, so to speak.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM

Theres a great exposition and breakdown of his guitar technique on this song on the Paul Brady guitar tuition video. Not for the faint hearted. i doubt if any two humans have as intense a relationship as Paul brady does with the wood and the wire of his guitar.

As regards the song. if you want to sing it and the words seem offensive - well change them to somewthing that fits in more with our age. The original version is safely on the shelves of the library for the folksong scholars and preservation wallahs. No one can interfere with that. Nowever folksong is to express yourself. Life's not a rehearsal. How else will another age know that we trod the earth?

Of course you run the risk of being called snigger snogger and a navel gazer. But don't worry about those people who are just trying to mask their own lack of creativity.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM

I sing it all the time, and I dont beat up women.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:45 PM

You sing it ALL the time!

I bet the women piss off after a couple of days without being beaten up....

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 07:24 PM

Hedgehog Pie & Dave Burland - Peggy and the Soldier YOUTUBE

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:50 AM

Thanks Mr Whittle for your straightforward suggestions of what to do with P& the S, and you thoughtful comment on GSS and his brave attempt to sing the song for so long

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:45 AM

Thats why I only tour intermittently, The rest of the time I am in a padded cell, as a result of singing the song, Its an unusual mental condition, that they have yet to find a name for.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Bernard
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:32 AM

PATS Syndrome?!

;o)

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:55 AM

The husband isn't just an irascible, crazy old coot whose temper makes him amusing - he's a wife-beater,

Read the song, Lighter - there's no indication whatsoever that the husband is a wife-beater. No suggestion he is "an irascible crazy old coot" either. His wife runs off with another bloke, leaving him caring for the baby. She comes back and he doesn't trust her enough to have her back. The same way that in similar circumstances a deserted wife might not want the man back. It's what happens.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

Who's doing the kicking and beating is secondary to the question raised by Les, which I believe was about the song's current viability as entertainment.

My opinion about the song's appeal and why audiences might not be amused by it today still stands.

Your opinion differs? Fine with me, but in cases like this singers shouldn't be surprised if some of the people they're singing to are offended.

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be offended. I'm explaining why I think they are.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:06 AM

Another good one Ms/Mr

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:07 AM

Sorry

Another good one Ms/Mr Lighter

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM

PEGGY AND THE SOLDIER.

It's of a old soldier come down from the sea,
His musket all over his shoulder,
It's on pretty Peggy he's cast his eye,
And she's cast her eye on the soldier.

Oh, me gold; me silver, it shall be thine,
I'll give you all me gold and me plunder,
If you will leave land, leave your husband behind,
And come away to sea with the soldier.

John, her husband, he mounted on his high horse back,
Expecting for to meet her by the water,
But when he got there it was late in the day
And she'd gone away to sea with the soldier.

Oh, they hadn't been sailing but a week or more,
When her love it did turn all to anger.
He beat her, he kicked her, he called her "whore,"
Sent her back to her John in the morning.

As Peggy walked up, as Peggy walked down,
People asked her where she was going,
She made not an answer, she couldn't say where,
For she'd been away to sea with the soldier.

When Peggy got back, it was late in the night,
And she was ashamed to be seen,
It was under the window she's listened a while,
To her husband a-nursing the baby.

"Now hushaba little one and don't you cry,
For your momma's gone and left you in sorrow,
But if she comes back, well, she can't stay here,
She can go back to sea with her soldier."

"Oh, open the door, love, and let me in,
And I'll never prove false any longer."
"You can go from me door; you can leave me alone,
You can go back to sea with your soldier.

John, her husband, he mounted on his high horse back,
He rode until he came to the water.
He abus-ed the wind and the waters, clear,
Sent Peggy off to sea with the soldier.

He abus-ed the man that builded the boat.
He abus-ed the captain that sailed her.
He abus-ed the wind and the waters, clear,
Sent Peggy off to sea with the soldier

Lets be clear, is this the version we are talking about?

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 12:02 PM

There is an echo of 'The Demon Lover' here, but in that ballad she is running away with the man (or at least his ghost) to whom she was previously betrothed, which puts a different slant on it. I've never been comfortable with telling anyone what they should and shouldn't sing, but personally I don't find much in this song that would make me want to sing it. The female character has no redeeming features and getting sent back to spend her life with an abusive man is just what she deserves. That's pretty much the sum of it; we are invited to agree with the soldier's judgement that she's a whore. Not much nuance there.

I suppose it could be wrapped in some kind of introduction about outdated moral judgements, but I'm not sure whether it would be worth it. There are old songs in which giving a thrashing to a scolding or lazy wife is presented as justifiable and even amusing. I don't need to sing those ones either.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

I disagree, Brian, it is very good example of life.
It does not have a happy ending, all three characters, Behave foolishly, the one character who deserves sympathy, is the girl, she is tempted[havent we all been]and treated badly by two men, she asks for forgiveness and does not get it.
its actually fairly representative of what happens often in real life, it is a very good song.however there is aversion which does have a happy ending, which could be sung as an alternative.
give me Peggy and the Soldier any day above bloody boring Lord Randall, STILL ONE MANS POISON IS ANOTHER MANS PASSION.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM

OR PERHAPS one mans poison is another mans poisson.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:00 PM

International Women's Day hey?

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM

"all three characters, Behave foolishly, the one character who deserves sympathy, is the girl, she is tempted[havent we all been]and treated badly by two men, she asks for forgiveness and does not get it."

OK Dick, that is another way of looking it. Make that your intro and the song gets a bit more interesting...

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:36 PM

"...the one character who deserves sympathy..." - how about the baby?

But on what grounds does Brian Peters brand the husband as "an abusive man"?

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

The husband is abusive only in the sense that he hurls abuse somewhat indiscriminately at various characters and inanimate entities. However, what I was actually referring to was that the husband "sent Peggy off to sea with the soldier", i.e. back to the man who had beaten, kicked and insulted her.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:44 PM

since we dont know the babys age , it could be anything, we dont know if the baby is awre of the situation ,
But the baby has one CARING parent, so why does the baby need sympathy?

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:36 AM

Look I am loosing the will here but the child and its mother are probably homeless and poor.

Why don't we let it go I suspect we have squeezed the last drop of wisdom out of each other

Thanks to all

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM

Well no not really les. I think you miss the point. As readers of these pages will know i got taken to task over my George Joseph Smith song at last year's Tolpuddle Festival.
http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id22.html


A member of the audience pointed out that two women were killed in England every week as a consequence of domestic violence, and my song treated violence to women as though it were a joke. In America , where every right thinking fourteen year old has the right to carry an Uzi for leisure and sporting activities - one suspects the statistics are even worse.

I think the song that Brian Peters was probably thinking of was The wee Cooper of Fife, which ian Campbell used to do a great version of. Well if you never heard it you can imagine - Brian's chunky guitar work, John Dunkerly's twinkling banjo, the harmony of Ian and Lorna's voices and Swarbrick's violin weaving in an out of the melody.

I've already mentioned Paul Brady's genius level guitar on Peggy and the Soldier.

For my song, I think there's no way forward. But can we consign these traditional pieces and the attendant musicianship to the scrap heap - I'd say no. Adapt the lyrics, write new ones - don't lose the music.

Its the trouble with you guys - you think tradition means frozen in amber. cos martin carthy and the Copper family do it that way - that's the way it must be. With all due respects paid, tradition means we must evolve. The audience that gives the artist his feeling of belonging in a community is the determinant of whether this music survives.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:31 AM

Alan,

I feel sure I agree with what you say:

"cos martin carthy and the Copper family do it that way - that's the way it must be. With all due respects paid, tradition means we must evolve. The audience that gives the artist his feeling of belonging in a community is the determinant of whether this music survives."

Can't speak for MC but I feel sure he has spoken as you have about "The Living Tradition"

Game on

L in C#