BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?

Subject: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 01:44 PM

Another horror story from the US, when is it going to end, those lovely Amish children slaughtered by another madman, I visited Lancaster County nearly 40 years ago and admired those lovely people, it is depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:18 PM

CNN

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:19 PM

So sad and to a people that bother nobody. Clearly a soft target. Third school shooting in the states within the last seven days. A lovely people who live a simple life, how will they come to terms with modern America.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:24 PM

Tears. Just tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:24 PM

Absolutely horrible situation there are so few words that could console these families. What drives people to commit such madness???

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:33 PM

What gnu said. Just tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM

I have always worried about the apparent American love affair with the right to bear arms, and find Chick Heston and the NRA's arguments facile and shallow.
I can't help but feel that were there less legally held guns in the US there would be less of these sad occurences. I know it's sort of stating the obvious, but I feel it needs saying.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:51 PM

And conversely, if enough decent people were armed, there would be fewer of these incidents because of the consequences to the perpetrator. This is the first century where people put total trust in police to defend them; and accordingly one can never be safe in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:57 PM

It's fine to say it, Giok, and if the numbers bore that out, I would agree with you. But they don't. There is more violent crime in the States with the most restrictive laws. And by a very large percentage, most of the violence is done with illegally obtained guns.

This is a horrible crime. When one reads the article, the perp is quoted as telling his wife that he was "he was getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago". Sadly, even if he didn't have a gun, this type of mental obsession would have resulted in some form of deadly attack, with a knife or something.

God be good to these children. I am very sad for their families.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:59 PM

What drives them, Dave? A long history of stress, I imagine, combined with alienation and unexpressed anger, perhaps loneliness, a sense of persecution, a sense that they are not in control of their lives, and maybe a good big measure of despair. One day something snaps, they lose control completely, and they shoot somebody. Or they shoot themselves. Or both.

It doesn't exactly mean they're madmen in the clinical sense (although it is a mad act), it just means they lost it at some point.

Such things happen with animals too when they're under stress, and people are really a more complex form of animals. A normally well-behaved dog will suddenly run amuck one day and attack a child for no apparent reason. You hear about that often enough too.

I think that North American society has been under tremendous stress for the past few years, worse perhaps than ever before in our lives. Given that, and the influence of many games and video entertainment (which encourage violent fantasies) it's not too surprising these violent incidents are ocurring as often as they are these days.

And each time one of them does...and gets massive news coverage...it may, in fact, contribute quite a bit to inspiring the next one.

Do I have a solution? Yeah...but it would involve completely, utterly changing things from the top down in this society, and that is not going to happen. Too much money is at stake, and the people who are making it don't want to change what they're doing, they want to increase it.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:09 PM

Without getting into a 2d Amendment debate, I will point out a few things. These are based upon living and working for 28+ years in Amish country in Ohio and Indiana.

The Amish eschew violence and all possible contact with the police and government. Mostly they want to the left alone to live their own lives and worship in their own way.

"Amish" is not a race or a nationality or even a way of life. It is a way of life based upon religious beliefs, and these are so closely interwoven that they can (and do) laugh at themselves.

There are degrees of Amishness. Some even own cars (albeit without chrome and with black bumpers). They do use modern conveniences, including electricity, automobiles, airplanes, and trains, when it is convenient and thrifty to do so. For example, if you tenant-farmed your electrified farm to an Amish family they would not require you to remove the electricity because fo their beliefs -- they would use it.
Likewise an Amishman will fly somewhere if that is the most economical way to travel (although he might not like it!).

And until an Amishman is "churched" there is no more prohibition against a young man smoking, drinking, and getting into fights than any other young man of the same age. Once churched -- decided to enter the beliefs of the Anabaptist group called "Amish" -- he will foreswear these things (although a smoke and beer are often enjoyed, being considered "small sins").

This is a school shooting, a copy-cat of the one last week. I hope, from the bottom of my heart, that it's the last.

And by the way -- the Amish will pray for and forgive the shooter.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Scoville
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:09 PM

The guy sounds like he had some mental issues, but who knows? I suppose we'll find out on the news tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:06 PM

Dave - The gunman shot himself too. I can't see that armed Amish in this case would have changed anything. When the gunman wants to die - what's to stop him?

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:46 PM

DavetheAM, my dad used to say that if folks knew the teachers were armed there would be no violence in school. I think that may have been a truism of his times, but there is no way it would be true for today. There's just too much that could go wrong, judgement, direction, guns i the hands of curious students, etc. Stun guns might be another thing, though.

I am sad, but most of all I feel angry. Angry at the state of our country; at the fear-mongers and those of us who are not marching in the streets demanding their ouster; at the pry-their-cold-fingers gun nuts (I KNOW not all are so!) and, angry that violence has become the ONLY percieved solution for some folks' problems.

May all the children feel safe and be safe forevermore.

Mitakuye Oyasin,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:55 PM

This guy left notes which showed he had 'unusual' mental problems...Not nearly the same as some of the other school incidents, but I wonder if the intense publicity the media give these things now make people think of 'schools' to take out their rage.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 05:12 PM

I'd say no question about it, Bill. No question at all.

Now consider this. If you have a federal administration that would like to raise the general public's paranoia and their desire for "protection" to the point where the government can readily legislate and bring in what amounts to a heavily controlled society (meaning a police state...), then every one of these unfortunate incidents plays right into its hands...and the more the compliant media focus on the horrors, the quicker the administration can advance its agenda.

Rule through fear. Divide and conquer. Expand your civil powers. Cancel your traditional civil rights in favor of "security". Regulate, imprison, and control. It's been done before.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 05:13 PM

Truthfully, I'm very much afraid of the day when one of these people realizes that a public library ALSO has people and children in it. (It's been done too, but hardly any publicity accompanied the acts and I'm NOT talking about the recent pipe bomb in Salt Lake City PL.)

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 05:35 PM

All of this makes me think of something I saw on the news last night, a rising of violence (many killed) against homeless people. There was a man sleeping in the woods and 3 teen boys beat him, went back and beat him more while the old man begged them to stop and then went back a third time and beat him to death with a 2x4 with nails in it. The question for that is the same as the question for these shootings..WHY? WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD ANYONE DO SUCH A THING?????? The response of the 3 teen boys who murdered the homeless man said, "For fun." That gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 05:44 PM

These incidents all come down to the mental state of the perpetrator.

How do you identify people who are capable of such crimes? It seems impossible to me.

I remember the shooting at a Scottish school some ten years back. Seventeen killed at an elementary school in Dunblane.
Several incidents in Canada. Eight elementary school students killed in Osaka, Japan. An assault rifle used in Yemen. More killed in Germany, at a high school.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:03 PM

I'd say, Lilyfestre, that they felt free to have "fun" in that way because they saw the homeless man as having no worth in the eyes of society...therefore in their view it didn't matter what they did to him, and "no one would care anyway". On top of that, they were looking for cheap "thrills", no doubt, and looking for a sense of personal power. (many teenagers feel powerless, for a great variety of reasons) I can remember any number of teenagers that were equally cruel when I was in school, but they restricted their cruelty to safer things like bullying other students, torturing frogs, shooting birds with BB guns, torturing cats, that sort of thing. They weren't bold enough or so completely lacking in the awareness of real and consequences as to chance killing another human being.

You have to be in a colossally dull and unaware state of mind to do something like that, or you have to be incredible alienated and hostile. I knew a lot like that too. Some of them (probably most of them) did not have a good home life at all. Some had alcoholic fathers who beat them and their mothers pretty routinely, although it tended to remain a secret most of the time in those days.

I'd say that among the teenage boys I grew up around there were a good 15 or 20% who were basically mean enough to kill an old tramp, and definitely sadistic enough, but none of them were quite stupid enough to go as far as to murder someone. Not at that age, anyway. I'm sure some of them managed it at a later age. I have not seen any of them since graduation.

It's usually males who commit such acts. Almost never females. One good reason right there for giving women a whole lot more power in society, as far as I'm concerned. I don't trust patriarchal systems one bit. (and I'm male)

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:19 PM

yup. Guns don't kill people; Milkmen kill people.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

Highest crime rates involving guns in the U.S. are in the cities with the most restrictive gun laws. Chicago, NYC. Disarm the good people, and the bad ones will still have guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:33 PM

Thanks, Charlton. My regards to Michael Moore.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:38 PM

Guns, guns, guns. They're coming here to the UK now and we'll follow your path no doubt. Next we'll arm all the police, then we'll start demanding that we can buy our own for "protection"..and so on, down the slippery slope from the nation we once were to the nation the US is. Very sad, but inevitable I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:43 PM

Well, my uncle loved guns and used them all his life. He never once shot at a human being or had any wish to. He was a model citizen. I loved guns when I was a kid and a young adult. I never once shot at a human being or had any wish to. (I shot at targets, tin cans, toy soldiers, and a few bugs, mostly locusts...because they were very hard to sneak up on and get a clear shot at before they would fly off.) There are many, many people who are completely responsible and nonviolent gunowners. They should not be demonized or penalized due to public hysteria. Country people traditionally tended to have guns for a variety of reasons, some of them quite practical, and that is still the case in rural areas that border on wilderness. You can't just judge people on the basis of stereotypes, you have to look at each situation on its own merits.

I never thought much about the gun as a self-defence weapon, I thought about it as I would think about archery, ping-pong, or flying a kite...meaning, I found target shooting and the gun itself interesting simply for its own sake, because of how it functioned and the skill or finesse demanded in using it accurately. I didn't see the gun as a way of empowering myself in regards to other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:19 PM

One subject I am not getting into is guns. Taking a gun of a man is the easy bit, taking his reason to use it away is another matter.

The gun makes everyone the same size, sadly it makes some think they are bigger.
Many here have views on gun control laws. Obtaining an illegal gun is as easy as obtaining illegal drugs, there will always be a market to answer needs of man.

If the guy was mad lets say, he could have walked into that school and thrown acid into peoples faces, or slashed children across faces and hands with a craft knife.

We will never be able to offer anything only understanding and support to the poor families tonight who are asking that simple question,
WHY ?

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:24 PM

I think it'll be a long long time before people in the UK start wanting more guns in private hands.

About the same time the Amish start choosing to carry guns - and even in the face of this horrible targedy, I don't see that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:34 PM

I agree with Rapaire- these people will forgive and pray for the gunman. And they will refuse to install any sort of surveillance on the property or metal detectors. Amish try to combat evil with trust and goodness.

As for *why* this kind of thing is happening these days, does anyone remember 'Future Shock' and other books with similar themes? This kind of thing has been foretold.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

That's just it, Divis. It never crossed my mind that a gun would make me the same "size" as the next guy. I didn't feel that way at all. I just didn't relate to guns that way, I didn't want guns for that purpose, and my uncle clearly didn't either. I realize that some people do, though....unfortunately.

To put it another way: I knew some young men who carried knives to intimidate other people. I have always carried a knive (swiss army knife). What for? To trim my fingernails, open envelopes, cut string with, open stuck things with, do modelcraft with, etc...

You follow?

It's the psychology behind acquiring and using anything that is vital, not the tool itself. The same goes for the use of money, as a matter of fact. It can be used for great good or great harm.

Handguns are a bit different matter than long guns, though, I'll admit that. A handgun's uses are pretty obvious:

1. target shooting
2. shooting another human being

And a handgun is easy to conceal. That lends its use to crime, naturally. Well, you can say the same for a knife, can't you?

I hate to think what the families of those kids are going through tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:26 PM

Wordy, my understanding is that ever since Great Britain moved to take guns out of the hands of ordinary folks a few years back, the violent crime rate has gone up, as has the incidence of illegal use of guns in crime.

I have handguns, LH. I have never used them illegally, nor have they ever left my home illegally. My children have all been trained to use them, and they have all been trained to never get near them, or bring them out around friends. They are double locked, that is they are locked in a safe place, and have triger locks on them at all times. None of my children choose to own guns or have them in their homes. Fair enough, and good for them.

The size of a hangun does not lead to crime. That is a bogus contention. What leads to crime is a plethora of societal and economic factors. Acting out on those issues leads to crime. How one commits it, usually includes an illegally obtained gun. All data indicates that prohibition simply disarms legal owners and creates a huge blackmarket for illegal weapons.

The shooting of these innocents is a tragedy. Nothing more, and nothing less. It has nothing to do with gun laws, and everything to do with a sad, sick man determined to right what he saw as an old wrong.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Scoville
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:38 PM

Actually, among the ten biggest cities in the U.S., three of the five that have the highest violent crime rates are in Texas, which, as we all know, does not have restrictive gun laws (Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston). I think NYC is #10 (safest of the top 10 biggest cities).

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:38 PM

I agree enthusiastically with what you say about handguns, Mick. I was only making the implication that they should probably be regulated a bit more stringently than long guns.

"What leads to crime is a plethora of societal and economic factors. Acting out on those issues leads to crime."

Exactly. I agree 100%.

There are certain societal factors in the USA, mostly based on its past history, social development, and traditions, that seem to create a good deal more per capita gun crime than in many other countries (Canada included). We've been over that ground before in other threads.

But no place, obviously, is immune to this sort of thing happening. We just had an incident in Canada the other day with an alienated young guy that shot innocent bystanders, and then himself, apparently for no other reason than that he was very alienated against society.

I'm not a bit surprised there are a lot of people out there who feel that way. Not a bit. I AM surprised when their feelings drive them so far as to shoot at other people, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Raptor
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:09 PM

Guns Kill People end of fucking story!

"I'm not a gun guy but I'd shoot Charleton Heston if I could" - Fred Eaglesmith.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:27 PM

McGrath, your notion of the Amish arming themselves beggars belief!
Q. "What goes 'Clip-clop, clip-clop, bang!bang!bang! Clip-clop, clip-clop?'
A. An Amish drive-by shooting"

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:56 PM

Watch that trick knee, Raptor! ;-) I know a guy who broke his own nose that way.

Wanna come over and see my guns? (just joking...)

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: number 6
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:00 AM

Too tragic and horrific to even comprehend.

This is beyond a 'gun thing'.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:02 AM

These madmen pick shools as targets because they know that killing children will cause the maximum outrage.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people, oh really ? but if I don't have a gun, I can't shoot you can I ?

It will never end, America has already gone too far.

Big Mick, what move to take guns from the British people? the British public haven't generally carried firearms for a hundred years [ or more ]

Chuck Heston eh! what a twat.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:24 AM

The sad news continues another Amish child dead, in the district where I live I do not know one gun owner, the only excepition are the wildfowlers, and from the armed conflict with the British ended there has not been one killing in the area, no guns less chance of a mass killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:28 AM

Ard, out of curiosity here, why all the emphasis on Amish? Dead school kids are dead school kids. This guy may have had some extra hard-on for the Amish but this is yet another school shooting and THAT is tragic.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:01 AM

From the reports I have seen it doesn't look as if he had it in for the Amish particularly. The school was simply there, and it offered ready hostages/victims, that's all.

As for the gun thing: To commit a crime you need a motive and opportunity. Reducing the availability of weapons reduces the opportunity, plain and simple, no stats or convoluted explanations needed. As a corollary, it would also reduce the number of gun-related accidents, for the same reason (reduced opportuity).

As for 'rights', we are born with no rights, not a single one, except those that society and laws confer. The right to bear arms is one such, in some countries; but it's society's choice to confer it, not a god-given right.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Bassic
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:54 AM

I think that BigMick is referring to the strengthening of the gun control laws in the UK a few years ago. I`m not sure of the details but if memory serves me correctly it made it much harder for licenced gun owners to hold automatic and certain other weapons. It followed a similar school tragedy (Dunblaine possibly?) where the fact that an automatic weapon was used, dramatically increased the death toll.

The reasoning as I understand it, was that the legislators took the view that there is no legitimate reason for a UK citizen to have or use an automatic weapon or hand guns anywhere other than in a shooting range. It is still legal to hold a shotgun or similar with the appropriate licence and secure storage in the home. I may be inacurate in the detail here but I am fairly certain that this was the general principal that came into law.

I would be VERY surprised to see any change in the gradual rise in violent crime statistics over the last 20 or 30 years in the UK that could be in anyway attributed to the change in these laws. Yes there is gun related violent crime in the UK. But my feeling is that it is as it always has been, mostly gang/drug related "turf wars" involving illegaly obtained weapons, or tragic "domestic" incidents, often involving legitemately held weapons by people described as "pillars of the comunity" or in farming communities, where the presence of the "family shotgun" in the house puts deadly force into the hands of an unexpectedly disturbed mind. It has always been thus and tragically probably always will be.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. But I have to say that I sleep easier in my bed knowing that 99.9% (made up statistic but you get my point) of the UK population will never handle or know where to get hold of, let alone know how to use a gun. And will never have to face anyone carying one either. I know its a trade off of risk, to arm or not to arm the general public, but in the UK its a trade off that I believe is worth taking and makes for an (overall) safer society. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:07 AM

And conversely, if enough decent people were armed, there would be fewer of these incidents because of the consequences to the perpetrator. This is the first century where people put total trust in police to defend them; and accordingly one can never be safe in public.

The idea that the free availability of guns = safety and peace is a strange one.

It is not one that is supported in places in the world where this is now the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:19 AM

Illegal gun ownership is not out of control in the U.K. Yes there are a few areas as Bassic has said concerning those involved in drug turf wars. Every country has this problem. I think a lot are carried by these guys as a threat, something to wave about. A few sad cases involving children being shot around Manchester have made the news in the past year. The big problem we need to deter is the carrying of knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:20 AM

I heard they are now trying to pry a weapon from the cold dead hand of Alzheimer victim, Charlton Heston.

Heston's defense of guns while in Columbine a day after the school shooting is his crowning acheivment of a misguided life.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM

From the British left...

From the British right....

And here is what Straight Dope says...

Certainly fodder for a whole thread there, huh? Interesting stuff.

Let's leave this thread for the expressions of horror and sadness, and take the discussion of gun controls HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:37 AM

Let's compare it to people who own Rotweilers. Two children savaged badly in a week, and other owners immediately say it's not the dog it's the owner! My dog's safe!
If there were no Rotweilers in private hands no children would be mauled by them, simple fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:43 AM

After a school shooting here, all handguns in private ownership were banned.
Even our Olympic shooters have to keep their weapons, and practice, abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:56 AM

The gunman claimed in his suicide notes that he was getting revenge for an injury received twenty years ago at the hands of a little girl. I wonder if the "little girl" remembers what that was all about.

Five dead children and his own kids labelled for life as the offspring of a mass murderer. Then there are the boys and adults who left those girls behind.

Sorry for the ramble.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:49 AM

Would this have been different if he had used an axe or a hatchet?

As I noted earlier, I have spent many years working in Amish areas and I have great respect for them. Possibly the most brilliant man I've ever met was Amish and considered himself a simple farmer -- who just happened to have testified in the Amish Schools case, was for years the Superintendent of Amish Schools in Geauga County Ohio, literally wrote the book on teaching in the Amish schools, literally wrote the book for parents and students, wrote history textbook for the schools entitled "Our Better Country", a fictionalized account of his decision to stay Amish, and his own autobiography (I own the last two titles). And yet, even in his seventies, he maintained a sense of wonder and a religious faith I envy.

Uri would have prayed for the souls of the girls and their killer, because, as he once said to me, "Those who live violent lives are ill and need help, so I pray for them."

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM

The shooter in this case had no history of violence. None.

IF I had to theorize with no real data at this point, this man may be one of those rare cases of nerve poisoning from a very real combination of pesticides or herbacides.

The sudden murderous insanity that they cause far outweigh a nice green lawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:05 AM

Nope. It's the flouride we put in the water. Been tellin' ya for forty years now. That flouride suff is a Communist plot. Causes brain damage, making it easier for the Commies to take us over.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:37 AM

Yes, Rapaire, I do believe it might have been different if he'd used an axe. For one, he would have had to catch them and get up close and personal with each individual. The adults might have been able to overpower him, the kids might have been able to get away. Potential victims might have a fighting chance against a hand-weapon as opposed to a gun, imo.

Some Native American tribes also would pray for the victims AND the gunman. Traditional Navajo would sing a "Blessing Way" for him as he would be considered very ill and in need of healing. Of course, they would also Sing for the victims.

Mitakuye Oyasin

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:34 PM

Catspaw you are right it dosen`t matter what innocent party is gunned down, my reason for starting this Thread was the fact that I spent a few days with these gentle people in 1971, I suppose that is why I felt so bad about this tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:37 PM

Actually, pdq, the flouride IS bad for you...but you got one thing wrong. It's a capitalist plot. ;-) (thar's a lotta money to be made sellin' flouride to municipalities!) Pretty well everything that happens in this society is a capitalist plot, come to think of it.... So who needs commies to totally screw things up? Not us! We kin do it all by our lonesomes, by gum! Ka-ching! (cash register)

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:41 PM

Birdfeathers...at least you know I am not being serious. Please re-read the previous post by Donnie H. I think he IS serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:51 PM

Seriously a guess is a guess.
I guessed correctly that Reagan had organic brain disease in his 4th year as president.

The neurotoxin induced murder spree is rare but real none the less.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:54 PM

Now the shooter is said to have admitted to molesting two relatives: a 3 and 4 year old girl in his youth. If that was 20 years ago or not seems unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:18 PM

Yeah... ;-)

Well, quite honestly, pdq, I have no opinion one way or the other about what Donuel said there. I just don't know enough about that to have an opinion.

But I do believe flouridation is bad for people. How bad, I couldn't say. I'd rather drink untreated water, thanks, just as long as it's pure and unpolluted water, needless to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM

"I do believe flouridation is bad for people...I'd rather drink untreated water."

We agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM

Yeah... (smile) I think you would find that if we met in real life and had a chance to talk sensibly (which is not so easy in this cyber-venue here) we would probably agree about a good many things.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:26 PM

'flour'idated water is too thick to drink, anyway.


but what I don't understand is why one 'believes' fluoride in the water is bad for you, when 50 years of tests show that it isn't...in properly regulated amounts. When I was quite young, I lived for awhile in an area of Texas which had natural fluoride in the water...it 'probably' helped me by giving some protection to my teeth that served me well later. The comparisons with areas using non-fluoride water is one of the reasons they decided to add it almost universally.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:35 PM

Wow, a debate about flouridation. This is great. Next we can discuss Billy Sol Estes. I don't think Henry Marshall's death was suicide, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

We've had a terrible tragedy here, and the thread has descended into talking about teeth.

'Go figure' as I think you colonials say....

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:31 PM

I think it might be a good idea to just launch another thread, guys, if you really want to debate the pros and cons of flouridation further.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 07:14 PM

Rapaire - on the UK news a member of the Amish community did express compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victims. But news reports also now suggest that the attack was planned in very disturbing detail.

(I agree the tooth stuff should be on a different thread. I know UK and US spellings are different, but for the tooth fairy posters, on the UK side of the pond we reckon it's fluoridation not flouridation.)

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

If they can express compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victims, then they are about 100 x wiser than the national average. Makes me wish more people were Amish.

Yes, Kitty, I mispelled "fluoridation". Quite unintentional, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:06 PM

This is where the "stuff in the water" controversy started:

"Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM

The shooter in this case had no history of violence. None.

IF I had to theorize with no real data at this point, this man may be one of those rare cases of nerve poisoning from a very real combination of pesticides or herbacides."

The sudden murderous insanity that they cause far outweigh a nice green lawn.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is very difficult to give a straight reply to such a statement, although mental health issues are in play in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:20 PM

Its not strange that you have such a problem with neurotoxic insanity explanations. I suppose it is scary to think that a reasonable and sane person (like yourself?) could undergo a complete transformation in as little as 24 hours.

Behavioralists might try to discuss "mitigating guilt anxiety" but face it, no explanation will satisfy people who want or need a clear and linear understanding when the act is so heinous and alien to the life long character of an individual.


I know of four chemical compounds that have been reaspondisible for temorary insanity. They are powerful, profound and have nothing to do with the Twinky defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:25 PM

Rapaire, part of that disturbing detail was a check list that included KY jelly as well as tools, wood, hardware...

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:33 PM

People who have mental health issues are not bad people. They are not to blame for their condition unless it was brought-on by drug use. They do, however, have a duty to the rest of society to control base tendancies. These are well-known to each and every person.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:49 PM

What is a "bad person", pdq? I'm just wondering what your definition of that would be.

We all know (in a general sense) what a bad action is...or a bad decision...or a bad result...or a bad situation....but what is a bad person?

And who decides for certain who is and is not a "bad person"? Who can claim to have that kind of innate authority? On what would they base such a claim?

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:40 PM

Sorry to tell you this, Birdfeathers, but your nice set-up for a great philosophical discussion is wasted on me. I am a relatively simple person living in rural America. Here '"facts talk, bullshit walks". Even worse, my science background leads reinforces that opinion. Bill D. is philosophy major and a much better BS man than I. Several others may want to take the bait, but as Dave Van Ronk once said, "Somebody else - not me".

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:41 AM

The beginning of the end to all these U.S. shootings is pretty obvious.

Sadly I see little sign of this beginning.

Charlton Heston was born on this day (4 October) in 1923.

When I was watching his films (like The Ten Commandments) when I was very young - the picture of God in my head - used to look just like Charlton Heston.

Keep on taking the tablets - I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Raptor
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:29 AM

Just this morning there was a brutal Drive by hatcheting all the victoms were fataly injured. The attack was said to be gang related. People are up in arms about proper Hatchet controls saying "Hatchets don't kill people, Hatchets chop wood".

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:56 AM

If you get real close - you can do a lot of damage with a lot of things and can certainly kill people with a hatchet.

But you can't shoot people with a hatchet - and this is about shooting and how to prevent such things as described here.

These shootings will certainly not be prevented by just repeating the same old excuses. Which bring little comfort to the victims and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:33 AM

Here [pdq's posts] '"facts talk, bullshit walks".

Based on recent history including other threads that appears to be wrong end first.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:36 AM

The Amish describe themselves as "non-resistive Christians." They will literally not raise a hand to defend themselves if attacked. Literally. Amish girls have been raped, Amish adults have been blackmailed, Amish of both sexes have been beaten and robbed and they have never resisted.    Nor did they go to the police -- and they only cooperated with the police when their Bishops pointed out that others would be hurt if they did not cooperate. Yes, he could have hacked these children to death.

This...creature...who killed the girls lived within an Amish area and would have known these things. He would have known that there was no phone at the school and he would have had time to do what he wanted.

The news today also reports that he molested young female relative twenty years back and was suffering over the stillbirth of his daughter Elise in 1997. IF he had gotten help at either of these two events what happened may have been prevented.

You bet he came "prepared." This was obviously a premeditated crime, and I have no sympathy to waste on the perpetrator. My prayers and sorrow go out to families of the girls and to the man's own family, who will now bear the stigma of "you KNOW what their daddy did, don't you?".

I'll spare a prayer for the perp...maybe. But then, no matter how greatly I respect and even like them, I'm not Amish and yes, I would have fought back.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:59 AM

When will it end, I do not know.

Where does it begin?

with posts like pdq

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:14 AM

Back to the subject. When the man who committed the Amish murders felt a bout of mental illness coming on, he should have checked into a mental institution. We have emergency call numbers and councillors available 24/7 in all parts of the US. There is no one to blame here except the perp.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

It is difficult to understand the thinking behind a situation where effective security had largely ensured that the chances of guns being smuggled aboard planes were practically nil.

To the extent that crude knives were the weapons used in the 9/11 hijackings.

So in reply to this - there are now guns conveniently taken on board just waiting for the marshall equipped with them - to be overpowered.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM

Well....the thread actually had a pretty good run before a Troll crawled out of the slime.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:56 AM

Very true Shambles, but you miss a major point. Prior to 9/11, the assumpion during a hijack was that the hijackers want something, and for that they would need the passengers alive. Now, there will be the suspicion they're just going to crash us into something, and some of the passengers will fight back. We saw that with one of the planes on 9/11.

The point is, if the marshal can be overpowered, so can the terrorists. It's still only one gun, and there are going to be enough people willing to risk dying right now, to prevent certain death in an hour.

sorry about the thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

Big Stick, I agree that guns are over-glorified in the USA, and always have been. I agree that the USA has an overly gun-oriented culture and that that has caused harm. I have repeatedly complained about the awful "shooter" games that are sold to kids by video game companies, and I would be in favor of banning those, because they creat a sick mindset in people. However, I do not agree with penalizing all legal and responsible gun owners in a nation for the actions of a few unstable people in that nation.

And I don't know what joke you are referring to that you say I made...?

You know, we have ended up talking about a lot of different things on this thread as it went along. That happens in a conversation involving many different people. If I made a joke somewhere in the midst of all that...it does NOT indicate that I think there is anything funny about what happened at the Amish school.

So don't get too carried away, okay? I know it feels just great to whip yourself up into a righteous fury at someone else, but you may be just missing the point in so doing. I am not the dark and dreadful figure of your fantasy about me. I object to extreme kneejerk prejudice on BOTH sides of the gun debate, not just on one side of it. I take a middle path.

And by the way....I don't own a gun. I had a pellet gun and a BB gun when I was a kid, but that's as far as I ever went with it.

---

Big Stick's messages were deleted. They were just weird.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:14 PM

"empty pop bottles was all that we killed" ~ John Prine in "Paradise"

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:18 PM

We think it was God's plan (one of the fathers who has lost one child so far)

I shall never understand such a thinking. And I shall never understand the urge to commit murders before/with suicide.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM

Well, one would have to believe strongly in there being a "God's plan" in the first place to understand it, wouldn't one, Wolfgang? I don't exactly know what I would say about that... However, if it allows a bereaved person to attain some measure of peace after such a tragedy, is that bad?

I can't understand why people would commit murders before/with suicide either....but I suppose because they have a very sore grievance of some kind raging around inside their heads. They feel that someone did them wrong, and they want to get even.

It's very bad judgement on their part, because no number of wrongs added up together will ever make a right.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,J-Dizzle
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:02 PM

Many things come to my mind when I read this article about the Amish school shooting. Questions like most of you, "Why?". There can honestly be no reason for an act such as this.

I look at my life and think back to everything bad that has ever happened to me, and I just could not imagine taking it out on young children or their families. There is no excuse for it. Doctors say its a "mental" thing. Well I am sorry, but that is no excuse for anything.

The sympathy I feel for these families is overwhelming. I could never imagine losing a child, and worse off, losing my child to some imbicile who tied my daughter up and shot her in the back of the head as if there was nothing wrong with it, and then hearing a doctor say its because he was mental.

No, Fuck that. Take this fuckers family and execute each one of them. Execute anyone with that bastards blood in them. Execute his children. Execute his wife. Execute his mother, his father, his sisters and brothers. Execute them all. Fuck this shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:09 PM

Guest J-Dizzle, if you were serious in your last paragraph, you are acting just like that shootist. Maybe you need some help too - go see a doctor.
Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:20 PM

you guys are going off half cocked and shooting from the hip. Keep your powder dry and stop shooting off your mouth until you see the rights of the eyes. If you give a target group like the NRA enough ammunition you should be able to hit this issue right between the eyes.

Face it, like porn, guns are fun. As they say "the need of the fun outweighs the many deaths by the gun".

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

If you really want to trace the bloodline back properly, Mr Dizzle, he's related to every other human being on the face of the Earth.

So let's just execute everyone, so you can feel better, shall we? Yeah, right. That'll fix the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:31 PM

Saying that the perp should have checked himself in at the first sign of mental illness is giving him credit for being in his right mind. Obvioulsy he had not been. A lot of folks who have mental illness need to have it pointed out to them before they realise what is going on and seek help.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,JJUK
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:01 PM

In answer to the most commonly asked question "Why?" recent news reports have uncovered his motives for this senseless act of violence and the taking of so many innocent lives. There were mental issues for him to contend with, he had hidden a sickening secret for many years (this being that he had perpetrated sexual abuse on 2 or more minors in his family some 20+ years ago) and he wanted to do it again, targeting a self-contained community that had little need to protect itself. No amount of gun control or legislation could have prevented this unfortunately, which is even sadder. My opinion (and that is all it is, my OPINION) is that there is no place in ANY society for any form of firearm, the police can be equally as effective with a tazer. The colt .45 or beretta that you keep under your pillow or in your nightstand is a weapon of mass destruction, more people die from bullet wounds than from missile attacks. Just remember this: Guns don't kill people, bullets don't kill people........ PEOPLE kill people.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:19 PM

Since this has drifted from the topic, I shall say "So Long!"

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:20 PM

100

I've always wanted to do that

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: billybob
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:08 PM

" people kill people" so true.
I am just so sad, my best joy when I visit the USA is to go to Lancaster County,a perfect place, beautiful people, and according to the news the most forgiving, God bless them.
Wendy( in England)

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:42 PM

.........the right to bare arms?

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:33 PM

A few minutes ago, this thread had 102 posts. Now it has 96 and falling by the minute. Something said here that the moderators can't allow? Shambles is not entirely wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:38 PM

pdq,

Joe Offer published an explanation a few messages up. Having read Big Stick's messages, I agree with Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:04 PM

Since the worst of the "Big Stick" exchanges were with me, why does anyone else care. I sure don't. Let people run.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,hmm
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:22 AM

Hey Donuel, I thought your point about neurotoxins was a good one, and I'm sorry that it degenerated into a whimsical discussion of fluoridation.

I've worked in psychiatric hospitals where causal links were established between the presence of certain chemical compounds, pesticides in rural communities, particularly, which may indeed have led to startling behavioral changes, including violence. There are times around here when I wish that clever responders would place a greater value on civility.

And I appreciated Rapaire's observation that the perpetrator most certainly knew that these were non-resistive Christians who would not have raised a hand in self-defense. It clarifies the nature of the crime, and depicts the victims in a light we might otherwise have not seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:08 AM

You may have missed the following editing comment as it was inserted into an existing post and did not refresh the thread.

Big Stick's messages were deleted. They were just weird.
-Joe Offer-

You will have also missed the chance to judge for yourself if you considered these posts to be 'weird'. Or weird enough to justify you not being permitted to judge for yourself.

Is being judged - just weird - really grounds for imposed censorship? If it is to be - perhaps many regular posters now have grounds to worry?

Closed threads and deleted posts

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:41 AM

I've often thout it imight be fun to have an airgun , and shoot at tin cans in the garden - maybe join a club, shoot in competition and things.

But I know this about myself - I am prone to depression, so a gun is not a smart thing to have around. Luckily I don't live in a country where I could go out and buy a gun easily.

And the inhibitions that I feel and curbs on my freedom, I think they probably save the lives of people. Not from me particularly, but perhaps from people who have had a tougher life, less education, less loving parents, just less of everything.

Like I say it just feelings, can't prove anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:47 PM

Speaking of arming teachers: Click

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:53 PM

Sheesh! On the other hand, that might improve the kids' performance at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Raptor
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

The Amish are accepting donatitons. They don't carry health insurance and with the victoms in intensive care and the medical atention given to the first girls, The bill is huge!

I'm not sure where the donations are being accepted but I heard it on the CBC this AM. I'm sure one of you can find the aproprite links and post the here!


Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Raptor
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:38 PM

They have also made it clear to the Family of the Shooter that they would be sorry to see them move out of thier comunity over this!

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

That's because, unlike most people, they genuinely DO practice what they preach, Raptor, and they live by the Golden Rule.

More power to them. They are a shining example.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:05 PM

What incredibly brave girls:

Rita Rhoads, a Mennonite nurse/midwife who delivered two of the victims, said Barbie Fisher, who was wounded in the attack, told her grandfather that Roberts first asked the girls to pray for him when he entered the school. When he became menacing, her sister Marian, 13, who will be buried today, asked him to "shoot her first." Barbie then told him to shoot her next.

"Once they were tied up they knew they were going to be shot," Rhoads said. "They just stood there with courage."

Here's the donation info:

Amish Victims and Contributions for the Families


Those who have died from the Amish School shooting on Oct. 2nd include:

Naomi Rose Ebersole (7 years old)
Anna Mae Stoltzfus (12)
Marian Fisher (13)
Mary Liz Miller (8)
Mary's sister Lena Miller (7)

Five other children, including Anna Mae Stoltzfus' sister, are still hospitalized.
Also dead is the killer, Charles Roberts IV.


The following information is provided for those who wish to send letters of condolences or who wish to donate funds to the families of the victims, including the Roberts family:

Cards and letters of condolences can be sent to Bart Twp. Fire Company, P.O. Box 72, 11 Furnace Road, Bart, PA 17503.

Donations for the Nickel Mines Children's Funds and the Roberts Family Fund can be sent to Coatesville Savings Bank, 1082 Georgetown Road, Paradise, PA 17562.

The Nickel Mines School Victims Fund has been established by Hometown Heritage Bank. Contributions can be sent to the bank at 100 Historic Drive, P.O. Box 337, Strasburg, PA 17579.

Mennonite Central Committee and Mennonite Disaster Service has established the Amish School Recovery Fund to help the Amish community with medical care, transportation, and support. Donations can be made by calling MCC at 717-859-1151 or MDS at 717-859-2210. You can donate online at mcc.org or mds.mennonite.net or mail to Mennonite Central Committee, 21 S. 12th St., P.O. Box 500, Akron, PA 17501 or Mennonite Disaster Service, 1018 Main St., Akron, PA 17501

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:17 AM

According to Ms. Rhoads, on Monday evening a grandfather of one of the girls called on Marie Roberts, the widow of the killer, to express the forgiveness that is at the heart of Amish spirituality. Mrs. Roberts later sent a message to the local Amish bishop, asking permission to visit the community after the funerals.

"He was overjoyed," Ms. Rhoads said, adding that the bishop is a grandfather to some of the shooting victims. He said he had hoped that the Roberts family would come to visit, she said.

The Amish, who cultivate modesty and have religious injunctions against being photographed, have found the media attention disturbing. But there is a message they hope is transmitted by the same media that they will never see or read.

"The main thing they want to say to the world is not how awful this event is, but that their faith in God is strong and they have forgiven the shooter. They hope that other people throughout the nation will be drawn closer to God through their witness," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Old Guy
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

About 40 years after all the violence is off TV and out of other media like rap music and movies.

It is poisoning society.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 02:34 PM

I'not quite sure what I'm going to say........... its very very sad
"The main thing they want to say to the world is not how awful this event is, but that their faith in God is strong and they have forgiven the shooter. They hope that other people throughout the nation will be drawn closer to God through their witness,"
I think this says it all.
I believe that we are here for a reason and that we have a mission. I thank the higher power that my children did not have to have this one.
Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 02:57 PM

I agree with you on that one, Old Guy. Also agree with Partridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Old Guy
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 01:02 AM

Maybe 50 years.

These terrorists are not going to go away untill two generations after all the Madrasahs are shut down.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:11 AM

What on Earth have Madrasahs got to do with this murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Old Guy
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 01:53 AM

I meant to say extremist or fundamentalist Madrasahs.

They are recruited from among the lower classes and lower-middle classes. In the Afghan-Pakistan arena, there are members of Pashtun tribes who enroll in these madrassas. There are peasant children from the peasant backgrounds. And occasionally there are also lower middle-class children they are very able to recruit among people in Pakistan particularly who don't have any access to any other kind of schooling. ...

That's why the ideology that's propagated by these schools is so significant in shaping minds in the Muslim world. So if regular schooling is not schooling people, and schools that propagate fanaticism are schooling people, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what would be the impact on society.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 02:52 AM

...........geeziz......................

So Old Guy, what are you? ......Some kind of closet druggie or something? You need to lay off that narcotic before your entire ass is rendered null and void. Whatever it is you're smokin' or shooting up ain't good for ya'.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 03:30 AM

you'll be old yourself one day, spaw.

imagine it. you'll be sat there thinking - muslim fundamentalists, bleeding heart liberals, Bill Clinton, rap music...the world is going to hell!

I'll cut and paste something, that'll show em!

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 03:42 AM

aw geez...... ***shudder*** ................That's too hideous to think about .................................. Do ya' reckon that Old Guy does Number 2 in his Depends? I mean, he has lost control of his mind, could his bowels be far behind?

Wow weelittledrummer......That's a pretty bleak future ain't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 08:10 AM

only kidding... in actual fact, old guy is a spry fourteen year old who just repeats what he hears what he hears on CNN every night.

His parents don't understand him. Why doesn't he watch the porn channels all the other kids. they worry, how they worry! But its no good, this cut and paste activity business makes him feel grown up.

Its a sort of evasion of real life. He's very nervous of talking to girls. they way they make him blush and stammer, he feels it could be a communist plot to undermine the flower of American youth. Also his body is experiencing certain changes.....

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 09:02 AM

Actually he IS an Old Guy trying to experience his lost youth by acting like a teenage boy. His body IS undergoing changes but they're different than the ones of his boyhood as now his nuts are smaller than a couple of dessicated peas and his pecker looks like a half-eaten cocktail weenie. It is this that has brought on his return-to-youth syndrome. Alas, the pathetic state of his genitals caused him to lose the love of his life, a long running and torrid affair with a Yak named Doris at his local zoo.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 02:24 PM

So this church-going yankee who went out and did these terrible murders was actually some kind of undercover jihadist?

Anagrams can sometimes hit the spot surprisingly well: "Old Guy" - "Do Ugly" and "Duly Go"...

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 02:38 PM

Just when I had gotten to a place where I could ignore this cliche spouting, old horses patoot, he makes this connection. Old Guy, I can only hope that you are just jerking chains here. If not, you are a sick man. If so, you are still a sick man, as using a thread that should be dealing with a serious problem to promote this is just bent.

Damn, I have to quit reading this aul load of shite and just watch something intellectually more uplifting ....... like professional wrestling.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Old Guy
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 05:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Old Guy - PM
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

About 40 years after all the violence is off TV and out of other media like rap music and movies.

It is poisoning society.

---

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Old Guy - PM
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 01:02 AM

Maybe 50 years.

These terrorists are not going to go away untill two generations after all the Madrasahs are shut down.

---

I was not trying to say that the guy was a terrorist. I was trying to say that our society is being exposed to violence that causes this type of thing. Just like the extermist Madrassahs create terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 05:32 PM

calm down sonny.

you'll find the world ain't so bad. theres lots of nice things for a lad your age. theres football, swimming, Playboy Magazine....Total Guitar Magazine.

just don't say the bad words in front of your Mom.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: ebola
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:10 AM

The more innocent the Vic
the more horrific the crime.

The more horrible the crime
the more goosebumps for the Prep.
What separates Roberts
gunning down the Amish schoolgirls from

Bush sending the young to war or
Foley preying on teenage papes
or kids detonating mullah-bombs in
mosques and malls and marketplaces?

The men are sick all over the world.
Parasites of their own humanity.
Don't you believe this is all about sex?
Feel my power, baby! Feel my doom.

Always remember Marian Fisher....

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:40 AM

A total ban on guns in the U.S.A. immediately after Charlton Heston has been shot right up the poop shoot

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:03 AM

There was a report today that they have leveled the school. What else could they do? Fire purifies.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:34 AM

...........geeziz......................

So Old Guy, what are you? ......Some kind of closet druggie or something? You need to lay off that narcotic before your entire ass is rendered null and void. Whatever it is you're smokin' or shooting up ain't good for ya'.

Spaw

Whoever and whatever any poster may be - and whatever their views may be - they have as much right to post these views on our forum as anyone else.

Perhaps they should be able to post their views without some other posters feeling they have some right to post only abusive personal judgements and public speculations about them - in response.   

Posts containing only examples of this will tend to only elicit similar responses, cause others to feel that such examples are acceptable posting behaviour to follow and be liable only to inhibit other posters from contributing their views. Not every poster has a thick protective hide and perhaps should not need one on our forum?

The poster subject to this reaction in this thread has to their credit - at least stuck to the thread's subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 11:02 AM

"whatever their views may be"

I took it what spaw posted there was his view. With good humour tempering the point he was making.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:09 PM

that they have leveled the school. What else could they do?

Well, they could have opted for "The American Way" and built some sort of billion-dollar "holy shrine" out of it- preferably at taxpayer expense- like they're doing in lower Manhattan & elsewhere.

It would do America good to follow the example of the Amish.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:35 PM

Greg...Your "American way" is also the way of much of the world. In an ironic and tragic way, the example we get from these people is timely. In an ever shrinking world, their example would do for more than just America.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:00 PM

I took it what spaw posted there was his view. With good humour tempering the point he was making.

You may well have taken it that way.

But he was only posting a personal judgement about the poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Amish shooting When is it going to end?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

Not "a view", but "a personal judgement"... Totally different animals.