BS: Nazi salute in church

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM

Mary, nothing has only one meaning. There are several statues of the Buddha as well as other divine being from around the world with similar blessing or hand postures. They all can't be Nazi-inspired. Don't witnesses in court hold up one hand when they swear an oath to tell the truth? Are they all Nazis too?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM

Mary, are you afraid to ask the priest? If so, I'd suggest you get out of that church and go to another. And see if you can find out what's going on from a safe distance.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:48 PM

I do not think they are Nazi inspired. I think they are extremely insensitive. We have a nice priest, from another country, and some nice people. The lady who did it in church is a nice lady, but old enough to remember WWII in person, as is most of the congregation.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM

This whole long discussion reminds me of a favorite TV sitcom episode (sorry!).

Larry David, in a public place, is humming a favorite passage from Wagner, the German composer. (Larry is known to be Jewish; it's an important feature of his character.) An acquantance, also Jewish, gets up in his face and gives him hell: "How can you like Wagner? Hitler liked Wagner! You're nothing but a self-hating Jew!!!"

Larry gets all indignant: "You've got it all wrong -- I hate myself, all right, but it has nothing to do with being Jewish!"

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Burke
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:59 PM

There are Neo-Nazis in this world. They scare me & I would not want to downplay the pockets of Nazis in the US, Germany, or elsewhere. It's hard to see how a gesture of blessing can be seen as creeping Nazism.

For comparison, I'm Episcopalian; when several priests are con-celebrating communion, the ones off the the side will extend thier arms straight out, palms down, probably a little lower than the Nazi salute, as part of their participation in the rite. The farther away one is, the higher the arm will usually be.

The physical attitude of entending a blessing on an individual is to extend the hand over the person's head. If the recipient is standing, or those extending are far away, the natural way to do it would be in this gesture that looks to you like a Nazi salute. How might you symbolically but physically extend this blessing?

In addition to what everyone else has said, there is not only a hand & arm position involved, but a gesture as well. To my mind the Nazi salute should include a 'coming to attention' sort of gesture. It is not just the arm position, but the entire body. You've admitted that not all have straight arms. What's their body language saying? If the arms are all raised at different times, in individually unique body attitudes, you don't really have a salute of any kind going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:02 PM

Man, Woody Allen could've had a heyday with this thread. It sounds like a sitcom to me too. Loved your post, Joe Offer.

I looked up "Woody Allen Monologue" on Google and found all kinds of funny stuff. Try it and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:16 PM

Beware the perils of a religion. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:22 PM

Or a political party. Oh...well...same thing, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:28 PM

I'm FINALLY reading about Justice William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme court, associate Justice. I came across this wonderfull statement: "They were prisoners of their own beliefs." I think this fits here ... of course I've been wrong previously. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:29 PM

Beautiful quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM

WRONG WORD!!! WRONG WORD!!! The CORRECT quote is: "They were prisoners of their own "ILLUSIONS!!!" My appologies. I had to leave MC and look it up.

I think it now fits even better. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Blues=Life
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:46 PM

"I think they are extremely insensitive"

Mary, I think it is a matter of extreme sensitivity, but I think you're looking the wrong way. So, what DID the priest say about it?

(By the way, that outstretched arm - (Nazi salute) - blessing thing? My dear old Dad did that every Sunday during the benediction in his Presbyterian church... is celebrating his 50th year in the clergy... Oh, my God, Joe Offer, why didn't you tell me my Dad was a Nazi... I'm so ashamed!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:47 PM

And to add a little more! This is always a DANGEROUS thread topic, yet I well respect Mary for daring to express it. If we are all not very careful, this could slide down into the bottomless pit of a religiosity/flaming/damnyou/damnme/the hellwith it/stupid war. But that's not where I want to go. And I strongly suspect that that is NOT where Mary wants to go.

I know Mary, a bit. She is seriously Catholic. She and I have talked of her religious beliefs. And, she is a grown up person with a very good head on her shoulders, who also is able to compose incredible songs.

So, for her to ask a question, as she has, on a internet thread, means that she's wanting serious answers. I can't help her. I'm far too much a cynic. I was raised in the Pentacostal church and grew up with the serious downside of religion every day.

I also have a memory and I'm old enough to remember the hitler salute as it happened in real life. Yes, I know that the swatstika was well known in American Indian cultures. But, Mary has asked a serious question here. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Yes, it's a serious question.

Mary's right - no matter how ancient the gesture is, it looks quite a bit like a Hitler salute. If that similarity pushes one of her "hot buttons," it will probably always be hard for her to accept that symbol for the meaning of blessing that it has had for many centuries. I think that's true for most of us - a symbol takes on the meaning we first associate with it, and it's almost impossible to shake that meaning. I guess when that happens, we have to make a choice. I think the most sensible choice is for me to acknowledge that although the symbol has negative implications for me, it obviously has a deep, positive meaning for many people. The people who use the symbol have no reason whatsoever to express its negative implications, so it's only logical that the negative things are not their intention.

I think we need to accept people for what's in their hearts, and not find fault with them because they choose words or gestures that we dislike. The basic question is this: are the people in church praising Hitler, or are they asking God to bless somebody? If it's the latter, it's not fair to condemn them as Nazis.

If we have to be so careful about confusing symbols, we'd better go back to calling sauerkraut "liberty cabbage" and French fries "liberty fries." I guess we'd better burn all the American flags, because Richard Nixon hid behind his flag lapel pin. If we take this to extremes, we paralyze ourselves, because everything we could possibly say and do must have some sort of negative implication for somebody.

So, Mary, it's your choice. I think we've given you a definitive answer. It's an authentic, ancient symbol of blessing that has been used since the days of the Jewish patriarchs. It has been used throughout the history of the Catholic Church, although it was used mostly by priests from the Late Middle Ages until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's. It has come into use again as a restoration of an ancient tradition. Those are the facts. I have a Theology degree and I've worked with Catholic liturgy since the 1960's, so I think I can speak with reasonable authority - priests often ask me questions about liturgy, because it's a subject I know very well.

Yes, it kind of looks like a Nazi salute, and it's clear that it has that meaning for you and you probably will never be able to shake that implication from your mind. The people who instituted the practice centuries ago and those who reinstituted it in recent years, have no reason on earth to praise Hitler - all they want is a sign that conveys blessing, and it's a very effective sign for most people. You cannot compel them to stop using the symbol because it just does not have Nazi implications for them - there's no way that they're going to see things your way on this issue. So, I guess the best thing to do is to live with it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM

I think the most sensible choice is for me to acknowledge that although the symbol has negative implications for me, it obviously has a deep, positive meaning for many people. The people who use the symbol have no reason whatsoever to express its negative implications, so it's only logical that the negative things are not their intention.



How in the name of creation can it have a deep positive meaning for Catholics when we haven't ever done it before. That is just bull puckey. It is a very poorly chosen imposed on us gesture. I personally can't remember priests doing it..I just remember them making the sign of the cross in blessing. I have not called anyone Nazis or think that they are thinking along those lines. But what if they decided we would all raise our hands and give the finger because someone thousands of years ago did it. It has a different meaning now. On a scale of one to a thousand giving a congregational finger is a 1 and giving a Nazi salute is 1000. Imagine if you are at a ball game and the other side does that in unison. Are you going to call it a deeply profound blessing? Hardly. In fact I think there are laws against it. Lawyers please check in. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:28 AM

Joe, I appreciate your clear answer. Being a non catholic, and also a non christian, it is clearly time for me to quit posting to this thread. Best wishes everyone. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:07 AM

The same gesture is used in the Lutheran church, and has always been used since Martin Luther's time - Hitler burned as many Lutheran Ministers as he could get his hands on.

To the Nazis - Hitler WAS God! All other Religions were Sacrilege! He pinched and reinterpreted as many symbols as he could.

Hitler is responsible for the Olympics Rings symbol, and the Olympic Torch, and carrying it from Olympia to the Games site thru many countries, and the Olympic Torch lighting the flame that burns thru the Games, and many other Olympic Traditions much loved by many ... do you say that we must trash all these things too?

In life, when there comes a time that you cannot accept what most others believe, it is time to kill them all - or move on.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:13 AM

Hi, Mary - One of the major reasons for liturgical renewal after the Second Vatican Council was that the liturgy had become corrupted, that it had taken on many of the European monarchical trappings of the Middle Ages. It was in Latin, a language few people understood - and yet it was originally translated from Greek to Latin because Latin was more widely understood. So what you saw before Vatican II was a medieval creation, far less authentic that what we have now (not that a lot of conservative Catholics will believe that).

In the process of reform, liturgists chiefly tried to restore the ancient liturgy, rather than come up with new things. This practice of extending the arm as a sign of blessing is one of those ancient practices. Mind you, though, I do not believe this gesture by the congregation is part of the official liturgy - but you're seeing it in a blessing, not as part of the liturgy. Still, it's in keeping with ancient tradition - you're just not used to seeing a blessing extended by a number of people, all at the same time (Blessings are official prayers, but most are not part of the liturgy).

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:35 AM

Interesting thread.

Mary, I would only add that it really does sound like the people you need to be talking with about this are the ones in your congregation. It could make for some excellent discussions there, and since they are the ones directly involved, also the way to get to the core of the issue with those whom you share your faith and church.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:12 AM

Sometimes symbols are misunderstood. Probably many of you have read this before but it relates to this thread:

"HONK IF YOU LOVE JESUS"

       The other day I went to the local religious book store where I saw a "HONK IF YOU LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker. I bought it and put it on my back bumper and I'm glad I did.

       What an uplifting experience followed. That bumper sticker really worked!! I found lots of people who loved Jesus. I was stopped at the light at a busy intersection, just lost in thought about the Lord. Why, the guy behind me started to honk like crazy. He must REALLY love Jesus because pretty soon he leaned out of his window and yelled "JESUS CHRIST!" as loud as he could. It was like a football game with him shouting, "GO!...JESUS CHRIST!...GO!" Everyone else started honking too, so I leaned out the window and smiled and waved to all those loving people.

       There must have been a guy from Florida back there because I heard him yell something about a sunny beach and saw him waving with only his middle finger. I asked my kids what he meant by that and they laughed and said it was the Hawaiian good luck sign. So I leaned out of the window and gave him the good luck sign back.

       A couple of people were so caught up in the joy of the moment that they got out of their cars and started running towards me! I bet they wanted to pray, but just then I noticed that the light had changed so I stepped on the gas. It's a good thing that I did because I was the only driver to get across the intersection. I looked back and everyone was still standing there so I leaned way out the window and held up the Hawaiian good luck sign as I drove away.

       Praise the Lord for such wonderful folks!

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Jeanie
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:39 AM

Anyone who has been involved in collective worship over a period of years will see changes in practice and language come and go, within a denomination as a whole or within one particular place of worship: for instance, the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing phenomenon some years ago when congregations all over the world began laughing and making animal-like noises; the trend towards open prayer, with one person speaking and the remainder of the congregation affirming what is being said by saying repeatedly "Oh yes, Lord, oh yes, Lord"; certain expressions which come and go e.g. "it was a real anointing", "I have a burden for you", "God has given me a word for everyone".

Whenever you find yourself in the middle of something new to you in the way of collective religious expression, you can either go along with it and do it yourself or feel somehow an observer, looking on. I have experienced both reactions in myself on different occasions over the years. The important thing is to take time afterwards, quietly, to ask "Does this draw me closer to God ? Is this helping in some way ?" Sometimes my answer has been yes and sometimes no. Only each individual has that answer, applicable to themselves alone. That's why I think it is very important for Mary to be questioning what she is seeing and finding the answer that applies to herself. Just as it is important for every member of every congregation to do so. Sometimes we all need reminding of this.

At the end of the day, the crucial relationship for a believer is the one-to-one connection between himself and his creator, who knows his heart and from whom nothing is hidden:

"And now about prayer. When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I assure you, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father secretly. Then your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you."

( Jesus' words in Matthew 6: 5-6 New Living Translation)

This is a most interesting discussion.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:10 PM

Mary:
In religion as in all other aspects of life, you must do what you feel is right. I never saw it used at Mass either. The closest thing to a Nazi salute I ever saw in church was the statues of Jesus with the two forefingers raise and his hand held like he was raising it in class. Having said that,I believe you should talk to your priest and failing to get an adequate answer then look for a new parish. kindest regards, Neil (Irish Sergeant)

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:22 PM

Isn't there a deodorant commercial that goes "raise your hand if you're Sure?"

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM

Foolstroupe, I believe you're dead wrong about Hitler initiating all those Olympic symbols and rituals. Most of them date back to Athens in 1896, or at least began earlier than the 1936 Berlin games. The torch relay *may* have been new for Berlin, but I believe the Olympic flame itself was already established. I'm absolutely sure that the flag and the five-rings symbol it bears predates Hitler; the large fringed flag presented by the mayor of the host city to the mayor of the next host city at Closing Ceremonies was introduced at the Amsterdam Games in the 1920s (and that was *not* the first Olympic flag, just a large and elaborately decorated one).

Hitler did, of course, take maximum advantage of the prestige associated with the Olympics, and used his country's hosting of the Games as a way to pose as a responsible world leader and stall off opposition from the rest of the world. He certainly loved symbolism and ritual of all kinds, and was incredibly skilled at putting them to use for his own ends. Insofar as he was able to hijack the trappings of the Olympics for the greater glory of Nazism, he certainly did his damnedest.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 06:22 PM

Just as any national leader does when hosting the Olympics...

We love it when "good guys" do stuff like that. We hate it when bad guys do. Every bad guy is a good guy in his own mind. It's how he sees other human beings that is crucial.

Does he see them as intriniscally good or evil? If it's the latter, watch out!

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM

You know, I think that to a great extent, religion is folklore. Maybe that idea won't sit very well with the religious or antireligious people here, but I think there's a lot of truth in it.

Many people here have said that religion is a system of control, imposed upon people to ensure their behavior and compliance. I don't buy that - there are very few religious groups today that are able to exert any real control on members. Also, most religious creeds and rituals evolve from the community experience of the group - they are not ready-made creeds that are imposed on people.

I acknowledge that there are many people (although not many here) who believe that their religious beliefs and practices are absolute truth, bestowed on them by the Almighty. That's certainly not true in the Roman Catholic Church that I've belonged to all my life. Many of our rituals and traditions evolved from Jewish and pagan traditions. The stories of many of our saints are often mostly legend - although many are very wonderful legends. Our liturgy is a marvelous blend of many traditions. And of course, the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures stem from many sources and many traditions, all with a basis in legend, myth, and oral history. It's a very messy faith, one that doesn't fit neatly into any pigeonhole - but I find that wonderful. I find that wonderfully rich blending of tradition in almost all religious groups, and I find it fascinating and good. My religious faith is one of the most deeply important aspects of my life - but I don't see it as a system of authority or authoritative answers to the questions of life. The Catholic church may have a structure that seems very authoritative and doctrinaire, but that authority and doctrine has very little effect on the day-to-day lives of most Catholics. The basic beliefs and practices of Catholics are quite simple, expressed in a wide diversity of traditions.

So, I see religion as folklore. It's a true, honest search for the meaning of life, expressed in many rich, colorful, and clumsy ways. I treasure the religious traditions I was brought up with - but I also question them. I also have high regard for most other religious traditions, and for the sacred meaning they have for people. This is not to denigrate religious faith in any way - for all its flaws and foibles, faith is the only way we can touch the hand of the divine power that is beyond us, whatever name we give to that power.

The hand outstretched in blessing is folklore, too. It's something Catholics and people of many faiths have done for ages, a very natural gesture - and one that can have a lot of meaning.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. Mary, maybe you'd enjoy taking a look at the Catholic Book of Blessings. Most any priest has a copy you can see (although probably you can't take it home, because it's in constant use). It is the collection of the official blessings used by the Catholic Church for various occasions - from the blessing of a home to the blessing of animals, and some situations that are kind of corny. Again, it's rich in tradition and meaning, and it's wonderful folklore.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 10:30 PM

PoppaGator

What I said must be true - I saw it all in a pre-Olympics documentary on TV!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 05:55 AM

1936 saw the introduction of the torch relay, in which a lighted torch is carried from Olympia to the site of the current Games. The 1936 Olympics were also the first to be broadcast on a form of television. Twenty-five large screens were set up throughout Berlin, allowing the local people to see the Games for free.

IOC Site

The IOC does wish, of course, not to be seen as 'political'...

So...

If you watch the Olympic Games on TV you are a Nazi Sympathizer?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 06:03 AM

Olympic Symbols Have Sinister Origins
By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Aug. 20, 2004 — Two of the most well-known symbols of the Olympic Games, the Olympic rings and the torch relay, did not originate in ancient Greece, but instead were immortalized in Nazi Germany, according to the recently published book, The Naked Olympics.

The lasting power of these symbols demonstrates how effective the Nazis were at creating powerful, dramatic images. It also reveals the association that Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) and his followers wished to make between Nazi Germany and classical Greece.

~~~~~~~~~~~

1936-Summer-Olympics

Film-maker Leni Riefenstahl was commissioned to film the Games. The film, titled Olympia, was arguably a piece of propaganda, but originated many of the techniques now commonplace to the filming of sports.

To ensure victories, the German government provided anabolic steroids and testosterone supplements to its atheletes.

For the first time the Olympic Flame was brought to the Olympic Town by a torch relay, with the starting point in Olympia, Greece.

The games were the first to have live television coverage, Telefunken and Fernseh broadcast over seventy hours of coverage to specially erected booths throughout the city.


and this one is too good to leave out...

German communist Werner Seelenbinder had planned to win the wrestling event and make a vulgar gesture at Hitler; but instead came fourth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

You know, I think that to a great extent, religion is folklore. Maybe that idea won't sit very well with the religious or antireligious people here, but I think there's a lot of truth in it.

You're right, of course, Joe, and to a folklorist this is a non-controversial statement. Good post all around!

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 08:29 PM

Joe: I agree with what you said, ..."Also, most religious creeds and rituals evolve from the community experience of the group - they are not ready-made creeds that are imposed on people."

I think you could also call this peer pressure. Isn't the church really 'the people'? Its the peer pressure to conform to values and beliefs that are held in common by members of the church that can be stifling for some.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:05 PM

Foolestroup,

My apologies -- maybe!

I'd be more than willing to admit I was wrong, but I still have an inkling that your Discovery News source was dramatizing, if not fabricating, some of her presentation. For example, here's the fourth paragraph of her article:

"Baron Pierre de Coubertain of France originally designed the rings in 1913. De Coubertain was the founder of the International Olympic Committee. He created the rings to symbolize the first five Olympic games."

Then she mentions that de Coubertain's plan for introducing the rings at one particular event in 1913 was postponed, and we're suddenly back in 1936, being told about how Leni W. helped Hitler to make the most of all this high-toned Olympic symbolism.

She never comes out and states that the rings and the flag remained dormant and secret for 23 years, and I'm not so sure that they did.

No one will dispute the point that Hitler and the Nazis played a big role in giving new and heightened meaning to the various Olympic symbols and rituals, and that they were absolute masters of inventing and promoting their own symbology and secular "liturgy." But did they originate ALL the best-known Olympic trappings? I still doubt it.

But then again, maybe I'm all wrong, having been successfully duped by the Nazis into believing that most of the Olympic claptrap predates 1936.

And, of course, you and I were and are in basic agreement on the *main* point, which is that whether or not the Nazis appropriated that blessing/salute gesture, people can raise their arms in church without expressing an endorsement of fascism and genocide!

**********

Oh yeah, one other thing -- Joe Offer's post was right on the mark. For the record, I'm a mildly disenchanted "fallen-away" Catholic -- although I prefer the expression "gotten-away" -- who does not hold a grudge against the Church, but just can't accept its authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 11:00 PM

Dianavan and Poppagator, I think what happens in many organizations as they age, powerful people step in and usurp the organization, attempting to make it a tool for acquiring power and wealth. This stops the natural, organic, "folk" process of tradition. I'm an optimist, so I think the folk process usually prevails, and those who grab power eventually make themselves irrelevant. It's a cycle, but I believe the powermongers lose in the end. It's certainly true in my experience of the Catholic Church - those in power are largely irrelevant, although they do fulfill an administrative function and they do make a splash in the world of politics and power. Politics and power have little effect on my daily life - I hope that's true for most of us.
I know it's true that occasionally religious groups do go horribly wrong - but my experience is that this is the exception, not the rule.
But then again, I'm an optimist.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:41 AM

In the TV documentary - it mentioned that the Nazis excavated at Olympia, and 'unearthed' the Olympic Rings symbol (among other faked 'finds') - which had a surprising [exact] resemblance to the previous (and rather cute and elegant!) De Coubertain design... :-)

You have to remember their Ayrian Supremacy Creed which basically stated that Germany was the natural successor to the Roman Empire.

Funny that, if you remember that The Legions - about 3 I think - (Claudius' time?) were butchered by a certain 'proto-german' Leader (who served as an auxillary in the Legions for a while & knew their tactics) living in the Forests East of the Rhine - and that is why the Romans never tried to seriously go back there, but built a line of forts and a wall along the border to keep the goddam barbaric 'proto-germans' out...

But that Nazis were always prepared to fake the documentary evidence... just like some modern politicians... ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:54 AM

Well they can't do it in Germany now because it seems to be against the law there, according to one site I visited. I suspect it is against the law here too. Somewhere. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:00 AM

Nazi salutes are against current German Law, but I'm fairly certain 'religious blessing gestures' are not - the Nazi Salute also having other bodily movements too.

But perhaps we should wait for a German Resident Catter to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:27 AM

if they add the heel clicking I'm going to become a Protestant. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:29 AM

Am I alone in finding this thread totally bizarre?

Can you imgine what must have gone through the priest's mind on the day he decided to add this to the service?

"I know what would add something to the service - not different flowers, not a new prayer......Got it! A Hitler salute! Sure they'll never be expecting that!"

I mean divergent thinker, or what.....

Its like something out of Father Ted.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:59 AM

The Hitler salute is forbidden in Germany but that doesn't mean you cannot reach out with your right arm for fear of getting jailed. It is a matter of context and intention.

So if a group of neonazis shows the 'resistance salute' (like the Hitler salute but with only three fingers outstretched to form a 'W' (first letter of the German word for 'resistance') the planned dissimilarity in appearance of the salute will not prevent them to be sentenced.

For some time, it was a 'contest' among photographers to picture each politician doing the 'Hitler salute' but that fad soon disappeared for it was too easy: Reaching out with his right hand for something above head level, saluting a crowd, trying to calm down a hostile crowd, asking for the right to question during a speech of somebody else in parliament etc...


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:35 AM

This is quite simply a sign of a Blessing nothing to worry about or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: matai
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:54 AM

Hey Mary, you could always try yelling out hiel Hitler next time they all do it and see what happens. They might just discover the error of their ways.

matai

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: matai
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Either that or you could get arrested. But either way you make your point. Good luck.

matai

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM

Nazis wore shiny boots too. Let's ban them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:27 AM

Sorry, Mary. Converting to Protestantism is likely to make you more unhappy. The gesture is much more prevalent there than in Catholicism, particularly among the more fundamental/evangelic groups. Hope you get this sorted out to your satisfaction; I think we've said about all we can to help.

best,

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:13 PM

I just Googled "Amsterdam Olympic Games" and verified that they were held in 1928 -- pre-Berlin. Since the oversized ceremonial flag with the five-ring symbol debuted at Amsterdam, the rings *couldn't* have been introduced by the Nazis. They just tried to heighten their importance by faking and filming that "archeological find."

Of course, one wouldn't know that from reading the Discovery News article cited earlier. That kind of sensationalist innuendo-by-omission, unfortunately, seems to be a feature of much contemporary "journalism." In this case, the writer isn't advancing her own politcal prejudice (as is so often the case), but she is certainly trying to enhance the impact of her work by "gilding the lily," trying to make Hitler look even worse than he was, an even Bigger Liar. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:14 PM

If they add the heel clicking I'm going to become a Protestant. mg

LOL! Good one! Made my day, Mary!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:11 PM

Why, PoppaGator? Because people use Hitler as a handy repository for all their own hatred, fear, and negatige karma. It is comforting for them to make him ever bigger and more evil in their own minds. It saves them having to examine themselves and their own faults more closely.

The Americans did this recently with Saddam Hussein too, but they have killed far more innocent people and invaded far more countries than Saddam ever managed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:50 PM

Mary if you don't feel comfortable enough to ask your priest the meaning of this, why are you worshipping there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:29 PM

I don't think the gesture has anything at all to do with nazism in the Catholic Church - or in your church, Mary. I do think that it is a silly gesture however.

Blessing, my foot! Blessing is given by the priest as the representative of Christ, not by the community. In the Catholic and Orthodox Chrches that's the whole point for having a priest (that he represents Christ), not just as a prayer-leader - unlike may Protestant Churches.

Gestures like that are a sign of the slow descent (over a number of decades, perhaps as much as 100 years) towards things physical/material and away from the spiritual emphasis that both Catholic and Orthodox covet; where a gesture is required to express religious feeling, like an external sign of what you feel. So that others can judge you by it, perhaps? It ends up with old grannies trying to out-genuflect each other, or the churchgoers imitating some sort of ecstatic state - in the hope of achieving it, I wonder?

So it's not the (unlikely) nazi links that annoy me in this case. It's the fact that there is a gesture in the first place, and that the power of blessing is being watered down by such newfangled theatrics.

I do feel better now;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

Super ted, where are you?
Oh sorry, spoiled it for you...