The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

She's Canadian, when you obviously mean from the USA.
Here are some things supposedly traditionally English:
Morris dances- Of Spanish origin, possibly from North Africa too.
Tennis- Developement of a French game.
Recorders- The earliest examples were discovered along the Northern Seaboard and the Baltics, including Poland. The earliest image of one comes from the Balkans. Most of the innovations in it's developement were carried out by the French, most of the makers were German. Most of the music was italianate, even when composed by Englishmen!! They, obviously, were not practising their own culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:29 PM

Er, excuse me WAV. Why do you consider anything that could be classified as 'pop music' to be american and not a product of the culture in this (British Isles) country even if that's where the artists influences are from? It's vastly over simplistic to equate any one single country with genres this way. Are you going to attempt to say that there are no european influences in american folk music???

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

What browser was being used then the Kevan Tolley site was opened?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

This particular rant would be appropriate on any one of a number of threads here on Mudcat, but since the subject has come up, this is as good a place as any.

< rant >

lady penelope is exactly right about the "written music versus learning by ear" thing. But, of course, it's not "versus," it's "plus." Any aspiring musician who either refuses or can't be bothered to learn to read music is intentionally handicapping himself or herself. You limit yourself to having to learn songs either from other people (often used as a justification by folkies because, "after all, folk music is supposed to be orally/aurally transmitted"—for urban-born singers who didn't grow up in the oral tradition, when did that become Holy Writ!??), or from recordings of other singers. It was this limitation that prompted me to learn to read music—because I had a whole book case full of song books (Sandburg, Lomax, Sharp, et al) that were useful to me only if I had heard the song before and already knew the tune. Learning to read music freed me from that narrow restriction and opened the whole field to me.

And the misconception that learning a song from written music means that you are limited to singing it only the way it is written is almost too dumb to bother refuting. But here goes:   listen to a number of actors, say Lawrence Olivier, John Gielgud, Derek Jacoby, do Hamlet's soliloquy (learned from a book or script). Same words, same content—but quite different in pace and emphasis. Or operatic tenors, say Placido Domingo, Ferrucio Tagliavini, Jussi Bjorling sing "Che Gelida Manina" from La Boheme (learned from an operatic score). Quite individual in style and approach. They all "dink around" with note-values, pace, and general approach. Each singer or actor puts his or her own individual stamp on the work.

I don't know how many folkies I've heard who, when they've learned a song from a Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez record, do their damnedest to sing it exactly the way Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez recorded it.

The written music is a starting point and a learning aid. It is not a set of handcuffs. Unless you make it so!

Learning to read music is not that difficult, once you get over your prejudices and misconceptions. And it is an extremely valuable tool for any musician.

####

And as to the matter of "Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane. . . ." and what follows, displays substantial ignorance about what it takes to be a performing musician.

Segovia was able to command some pretty high fees for his concerts. So, by the hour, his pay seems to be "ridiculous and inhumane" compared to the singer of folk songs who performs mainly as a hobby and picks up the occasional tenner for doing a gig. But Segovia practiced six hours a day. Every day. Year after year, for every year that he performed. And this was time that he didn't get paid for.

How many singers of folk songs do you know who practice six hours a day, every day?

Can you imagine the amount of money that Van Cliburn (or his parents) spent on piano lessons as he was growing up? He also put in many hours a day at the keyboard. Hours for which there was no pay.

If you total up the amount of money spent on lessons, often the tuition paid and time spend in music schools and conservatories, and the number of hours that these musicians put in to eventually get those "ridiculous and inhumane" fees—and then, divide that into what they earn—earn—you may be very surprised to find out how small their "hourly wage" is, after expenses!!

And I'm not talking about only classical musicians here. Bruce Springsteen and the band he works with start rehearsals—yes, rehearsals— regularly, at nine o'clock in the morning. The Greatful Dead? Same sort of "woodshed" time put in. Kenny Rogers and the First Edition? Almost all of the more successful, highly paid performers in most fields put in the time and the work.

". . . talent, motivation, and dedication. . . ."

So, unless you have the motivation and the dedication, and are willing to invest the time, the money, and the energy, then don't bitch about the "ridiculous and inhumane" pay that these artists get.

If you pick up the guitar (or whatever) three or four times a week and practice for forty-five minutes, and learn a new song (from a record) and practice it for an hour or two before you can sing it without goofing it up, just count yourself damned lucky if someone is willing to toss a couple of quarters into your hat to hear you sing it.

< /rant >

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

Love your rant Don.

1) Agree with you about 'learning the dots' totally. I knew everything before I went to University...

2) Rate of Pay. One of the reasons I lost interest in going to folk clubs was the expressed lack of interest by others in getting together 'for rehearsal'. "Ya don't HAVE to think, Ya gotta just open up yer arse and let the music fall out".... :-P (and that's usually just the sort of result ya get!) :-)

And I have noticed that many 'self taught folkies' just don't get what 'rehearsal' IS. Perhaps I have been 'spoiled' by my Classical Music Upbringing (like only eating Beluga Caviare, perhaps!). In which case I thank my lucky stars that I WAS 'spoiled'!!!

'Rehearsal' is not just playng the notes over again and again without change in tempo or expression as fast as you can till the other musos run screaming from the room. (Hmmm, that also sounds like many 'sessions' I have been to!)

'Rehearsal' involves thought. If you don't understand that, I'm not going to bother wasting my time explaining that. And it involves fear, excitement, discovery, boredom, etc.

When I had been taking piano lessons for a couple of years, and still in single digits, I began to think that I was pretty hot shit. "Hey Dad, look how fast I can play" I said.

My Dad stopped what he was doing, said to Mum, "This is very important", got out his violin, tuned it (and without any other warmup) took his bow, placed it on a string at the frog, and pulled a VERY SLOW bow, in perfect tune, in perfect pitch, no waver or squawk, that took what seemed like AGES (several minutes)!

"Son", he said, "Any ignorant Fool can play loud and fast, but to play slow and soft and well takes talent, training and practice". I have never forgot that. Pity that most I stumble across who think they are 'hot shit musos' don't seem to have been 'spoiled' like me.


"I don't know how many folkies I've heard who, when they've learned a song from a Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez record, do their damnedest to sing it exactly the way Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez recorded it."

This is a substantial victory for the owners of 'The Recording Industry' - hollow but overwhelming.


"Almost all of the more successful, highly paid performers in most fields put in the time and the work."

Which sadly means that most of us are 'Just Amateurs'... :-)


"I used to be good once, but now I'm out of practice!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

I've been involved a couple of times with attempts to put "folk groups" together, and the stumbling block has always been an unwillingness for one or more (usually more) to rehearse sufficiently, if at all!

We'd manage to get through a song once without somebody screwing up (that's just the beginning of rehearsing), then a couple of people would start to pack up their instruments and say, "That sounded great! Okay, let's go grab a beer!" Or the attempt when one person, a fairly well-known singer in the area at the time, never bothered to show up for rehearsals. The implication was "You folks need the practice. But I'm a pro, and I don't." Or the times I showed up at a potential singing partner's apartment ready to practice, and her roommate tells me, "Oh, she's not here. She went skiing this afternoon."

That's why I work solo.

About the only times I've been able to work with someone else successfully was when our performances consisted mainly of swapping solos with a little banter between, interspersed with occasional duets. Because we were not always able to get together as often as we needed to, this sort of programming did seem to work pretty well.

I really have to hand it to groups that actually manage to get it off the ground. First, you have to want to get together, then you have to be able to get together, then when and if you do get together, you have to be willing to work until you get it to the point where you're all satisfied with what you've accomplished and people are willing to pay to hear you sing.

And when it comes to individual performances, if there is a lack of consistent practice, it really shows!

Don Firth

P. S. Of course, I'm talking performing professionally here. If I person just wants to sing and play for fun, then you have to decide how far you want to take it. Just sing in your own bedroom, sing for your family, sing at parties with a few friends, or post stuff on MySpace or YouTube? Great! But still, if you're going to ask that other folks listen to you, you want to do it well enough so they don't sit there writhing and flinching, right?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

You're Evil Don.... :-)

I like you.... :-P

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

Thanks, Robin! It's nice to be appreciated.

Yeah, some folks find these reality sandwiches kind of bitter-tasting. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM

What, like cucumber sandwiches?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:01 AM

Here is an extract from a fun novel, an icon of Englishness, which, coincidentally, was written by a foreigner. D-d Hungarians.....

"It do seem more like April than September, don't it?" continued Mr. Hempseed, dolefully, as a shower of raindrops fell with a sizzle upon the fire.

"Aye! that it do," assented the worth host, "but then what can you `xpect, Mr. `Empseed, I says, with sich a government as we've got?"

Mr. Hempseed shook his head with an infinity of wisdom, tempered by deeply-rooted mistrust of the British climateand the British Government.

"I don't `xpect nothing, Mr. Jellyband," he said. "Pore folks like us is of no account up there in Lunnon, I knows that, and it's not often as I do complain. But when it comes to sich wet weather in September, and all me fruit a-rottin' and a-dying' like the `Guptian mother's first born, and doin' no more good than they did, pore dears, save a lot more Jews, pedlars and sich, with their oranges and sich like foreign ungodly fruit, which nobody'd buy if English apples and pears was nicely swelled. As the Scriptures say--"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, some folks find these reality sandwiches kind of bitter-tasting

With respect, Don, we don't all share your particular reality, which, judging from your rant, and the above statement, is a very different reality to my own. Your sandwiches are only bitter tasting in respect of the narrow-minded absolutism they embody; hard won no doubt, but I've always found that folk music is best served by non-musicians, certainly non-musos, for whom professionalism is a complete anathema.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:22 AM

Carol - Internet Explorer 6.
Don - I read all with interest and agree with some of what you said, but standby what I said: there are taut tushed mimers who have made a fortune, whilst many genuine musicians have struggled to make ends meet, from the music industry; and, accordingly (pardon the pun), if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. Have you read much John "business is glorified theft" Steinbeck? For a better way for humanity, I refer you to my snippet on REGULATIONISM above &/or my life's work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:26 AM

WAV, I looked at your life's work and was reminded by your poem on Moroccan tea about another bit of English culture that began elsewhere.
Tea drinking. A Muslim/Turkish tradition!!!!!! So, were all those tea-sippers not practising THEIR OWN CULTURE?
Oh well, back to oranges and such like foreign ungodly fruit, which nobody would buy if English apples and pears were nicely swelled.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:33 AM

Ah - what I was saying about websites - KISS...

From Plenty of bagging for grocery website

The new GROCERYchoice website keeps a Labor election promise to provide consumers with more information about grocery prices. But it has provoked a HEROC complaint from a disabled guy that he can't read it or otherwise access it - in contravention of the Govt guidleines about disability accessibility to Govt websites! :-)

It's bloated full of fancy tricks and cute graphics, and I even broke it looking up something simple - so I sent in a complaint direct to the ACCC too! :-)

KISS...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

First off, a slight correction to mandotim-KT Tunstall is Scottish.

Ok, I'm going to say this again for WAV's benefit because when he says, "As a multiculturalist, I admire much more folks from around the world who are good at THEIR OWN culture," he gets me going, and not in a good way. On another thread of WAV's creation, I wrote this,

"On your website too I saw something about World Music-"World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other. You do realize that word, unfused is a real difficult one to use in context of music. West African music does not follow a colonialism rule. You can say someone is from Guinea-Bissau, or Mali, or Senegal, but the music itself comes from an ancient source that predates those names for countries we now know. Thus someone like Toumani Diabate's lineage of griots comes from the area we now know to be Mali, but was not Mali until 1960, before he was even born. The same can be said in Europe. Ever hear regional European music WAV? Do you realize that there has been so much polinization in European music that you can have someone from regions of France singing in Italian, or someone from Sardinia singing in Catalan? See? unfused doesn't work when you have music that by a map says it belongs in one country, while culturally, actually belongs in another. So your stated belief that different nationalities should present their own native, unfused music to each other, is in actuality, a deluded belief that music stops at border checkpoints, even the ones that didn't exist until the 20th century."

I have also asked you repeatedly, on several threads now, to clarify when you say you admire folks doing music from their own culture. Does that mean that the old English, Scots, and Irish ballads that are found, and sung to this day in places like Kentucky, or Newfoundland should be abandoned? Because following your rules, one can say that those folk who do sing those songs, are abandoning the native culture of their own country. That's not what I think, I find it fascinating that, as for example Richard Thompson saying that an old ballad, King Henry, was found pretty much intact in rural Kentucky. So you have Americans singing about a tribute due to the king of France, and tennis balls, and all sorts of strange things that are in the original variants of the song.

I will also say that, in its most simplest explanation, Rock is an American form. Again, I say simple, because we know its roots go far deeper than that, if one wants to go there. But will you deny the effect rock can have at this point on all cultures? Case in point is Runrig. Using an American form, they have energized and in some way, revitalized Scottish Gaelic, in their 30 + years. Will you honestly stand here and tell me that there is something wrong with that, because they are using an "american" form? Rory Macdonald, and at the time Donnie Munro (Bruce Guthro actually has a lilt, but its not quite the same) have not, nor ever will be considered Americans in their singing style, they are Scots through and through. So would you dismiss them, and all they have accomplished because they are singing songs about their own culture and history and language (including singing in that language)simply because they use an American form to express it by?

Ponder this if you will please WAV. Please don't answer with a link to your website. I HAVE been on it, I have read most of it. I seek to understand, and I seek to debate your points, not be redirected to the source of the problem.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

Comment:
I despise mime but even I know that it takes years of study to become one of the few who "make Millions". I have the same difficulty with some blues, some jazz, and some classical music - doesn't make it bad. Doesn't mean that the artists haven't earned their keep nor does it mean that someone, whose craft I prefer, deserves it more than they do.

Or have I misunderstood?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

Some (and most who play at a live no-miming events like Glastonbury) in pop ARE genuine musicians, Sinsull, but anyone who has ever tuned into one of those pop-chart type shows would know that others are clearly not - yet they may have made a quick fortune while other genuine musicians have struggled.
I'd rather Runrig perform their Scottish lyrics that you mention, IE, in a Scottish, rather than American, form, frankly. And, if both can sound good, why not chose the form from one's own neck-of-the-woods and, thereby, help keep our world nice and multicultural. This is nothing new, of course - many reading this will know as well or better than I the perform-your-own policies of 50s and 60s folk-clubs here.
And, to Volgadon, fair-trade of fruit, etc., is very much a part of the WAV way. So, on that one, she's apples, as they may still say in Aus.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

WAV, what part of England are you originally from?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

It's in my opening blank verse poem, Volgadon, but, briefly, I was born in Manchester - actually the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

Volgadon,

WAV is originally from Manchester, I think.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

Yet again WAV, you seemingly will not, or cannot answer what are important questions or comments to your life's work. Do you believe that music has border checkpoints, that musical styles, and instrumentation, and subject matter are limited to the modern boundaries in which we now live? Do you believe that multiculturism is best achieved by imposing the harshest of limitations on something meant to be as universally enjoyed as music? Do you believe that, given the choice between the death of culture and language of this modern age versus the (in your view) notion of purity is really a good option? Do you believe that there has been no cross-pollinization in music up to now, that it is only this beast that we generically call "Rock" that has caused the fusion in music that you so dislike?

You also entirely missed my point about Runrig. What truely makes the Scottish form WAV? Highland or lowland? Bagpipes? Accordion? Jimmy Shand? Do you know Runrig WAV? Ok, I'm a fan, others may not be, but they are a good example for this discussion. They were certainly not the first to deliberately write songs in Scottish Gaelic (I believe that was Ossian?), but what they have helped to do is bring new life to a language that was struggling. You'd rather complain about how puristic notions make a nice multicultural world, rather than saying how awesome it is that a 15 year old kid is singing along to a Gaelic song, and maybe, just maybe-learning some of the language. Your notions of multiculturism are flawed because you impose your own sets of standards and limitations on things that I don't think you fully grasp. You can quote me all the countries you have visited, and all your Aboriginal and Native American friends on your myspace page, but that doesn't matter to me. What matters is that music and culture and language grow, day by day, year by year. Linguistically, I'm sure you have words in your vocabulary that literally did not exist as little as 10 years ago. Someone, somewhere makes up a word, it enters common usage, and next thing you know, it gets put in the dictionary as an accepted part of our language. Do you not think that happens with music WAV? Do you not think because music does not stand still, but rather, progresses, that there are bound to be changes and evolution in musical form, instrumentation, rhythm, recording, presentation and so on?
Multiculturism is alive and well, just not in the way that YOU PERSONALLY wish it to go. I think we'll get along fine though. I've got history on my side for that one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Then why do you sing songs that aren't from Manchester???

"Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when

they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots

by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Further, I'm told several of our earliest

folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

"Narrow-minded absolutism!???" Well, that's pretty harsh! In what way is what I have posted "narrow-minded absolutism?" Please explain.

Insane Beard, apparently you skipped my footnote above where I said that I'm speaking specifically about those who aspire to be professional musicians. And that's regardless of whether they perform folk music, opera, classical, jazz, or whatever. If you sing strictly for your own enjoyment or the enjoyment of friends and family, with no interest in singing gigs (in other words, a "real folk singer"), that's a whole different thing.

If you are expecting people to come to hear you perform, and you are charging them money to do so, you owe it to them to give them their money's worth. Which means that you know your material and that you present it well. You may regard yourself as a "folk singer," but in this situation, you are an entertainer (AND if you can slip them a little education and authenticity at the same time, that's much to the good!).

As to whether folk music is best served by amateurs, and that professionalism is an anathema to it, is most debatable indeed. A professional, after all, is someone who receives sufficient payment for what he or she does to make a living at it. It is generally through professional singers of folk songs that interest in folk music is spread.

I know a fair number of people who were actually turned off to folk music when their introduction consisted of hearing some field recordings—or live performances or recordings by some of the more 'rough-and-ready" singers. But later, upon hearing some of the same songs sung by professional singers, or singers who, even if not pursuing singing careers, might be considered "professional quality," they became actively interested themselves. With this as an introduction, they later went on to listen to field records and rougher-edged singers with new ears.

The following are two quotes from singers of folk songs that I think might be enlightening and edifying:

One is from Rolf Cahn, a singer from whom, in just a few brief encounters, I learned a great deal back in the late 1950s.

The most ticklish question still results from that awful word "Folk Music", which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to "Western Pop" music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating-what, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

One the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector; on the other, the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form-techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music.

And the other is from Richard Dyer-Bennet (granted that the classically trained Dyer-Bennet is not everyone's cup of tea, nevertheless, what he says below is most certainly true).

The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect.

Amen.

By the way, there is a term that I've encountered here on Mudcat only within the past few months, and it seems to be used mostly by British or Australians. The term is "muso." I couldn't find it in any dictionary, so I tried to chase it down on the internet, the best I could come up with is "The term 'Muso' is slang commonly used in Australia and England. It refers to a young musician."

The way I see it used here on Mudcat, it seems to be used as a pejorative. What, exactly, do people mean when they use this term?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:15 AM

I'm a 'recycled muso' Don.
To Quote from my thread (oh dear, now he's at it too!)

"A Recycled Muso is a person who has already learnt to play one Musical Instrument, and is starting to learn another."

I never saw the word as pejorative, not sure that other Aussies intend it to be pejorative either. It's a fairly common sort of Aussie slang where we shorten words like 'musician' to muso'.

"If you are expecting people to come to hear you perform, and you are charging them money to do so, you owe it to them to give them their money's worth. Which means that you know your material and that you present it well."
"A professional, after all, is someone who receives sufficient payment for what he or she does to make a living at it"

Having spent some considerable time working in Amateur Theatre, I can assure you that many such unpaid people DO have a very "Professional" Attitude. That is, they 'owe it to their audience to give them their money's worth. Which means that they know their material and that they present it well.' If you want REAL AMATEURS in theatre, I suggest you look up Mr Green's "The Art of Coarse Acting" to gain an understanding of the difference. I have been so bold as to previously suggest that WAV is truly "A Coarse Folk Singer".

QUOTE
A coarse actor is "one who can remember his lines, but not the order in which they come. One who performs . . . amid lethal props. The Coarse Actor's aim is to upstage the rest of the cast. His hope is to be dead by Act Two so that he can spend the rest of his time in the bar. His problems? Everyone else connected with the production." (Michael Green)
UNQUOTE

You can make your own translation...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

Do these sound anything but Russian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKdYLvt1wsY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcwcayA_PW0&feature=related
His influences are from all over, including India and even Richard Thompson and Steeleye!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:06 AM

Do these sound anything but Israeli?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0tnSgv-EE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbNj0DleE_I

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

Do these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFlVBOPncmc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gwRmyEZxI

Sorry for the numerous posts, Mudcat isn't letting me put them all in one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

What about these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGdlP1xuy40&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4LUZPculgQ&feature=related

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

Here is a blatant example of an Israeli not practising his own culture, but having a go at multi-culturalism. The horrors! It's a stupendous track. His then-current girlfriend was Irish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnA6oKC6is

Here is one that has a few Irish pop-ish numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAfD0Jj6dwQ

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM

Last one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yTQRlZTUTM&feature=related

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

To FT - in agreement with what you say of amateur theatre, in Newcastle upon Tyne we have an amatear People's Theatre, whose quality is excellent, I think. However, call me a coarse folkie if you will, but I'm still scratching my head over your "coarse actors" definition..?!
To IE - as you may have noticed, in China they now have rap, rock and pop groups, which are becoming more-and-more popular among youngsters who may otherwise be performing their own culture; although, thankfully, at the opening ceremony, we did get a good taste of traditional Chinese culture - and I do hope and pray for plenty of our own culture in London; but, going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony, I do worry about this.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

and I do hope and pray for plenty of our own culture in London

Out of genuine curiosity, Wav, what would you present by way of a taste of English culture?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

This question is open to all by the way - to compile your own Taste of English Culture...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

That's no answer WAV. You may be right about what gets presented at the 2012 opening ceremony, but once again, you have diverted my questions into another topic. My points had nothing to do with the Olympics. If you're so concerned why don't you join the organizing committee? I probably asked you about 10 perfectly reasonable questions yesterday, it would be nice if you could answer at least one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM

WAV, you do realise that Chinese opera superceded traditional music?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony

Manchester is a very pop city, WAV, giving us some of the finest & uniquely English popular music of all time; The Smiths, The Fall, Joy Division, New Order, Oasis, Freddy & the Dreamers, Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, The Hollies et al. See Here for a full list...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

Morris Dancing to an English concertina; an unaccompanied version of Country Life and/or the shanty Homeward Bound, to which everyone in the stadium would be given the words to the chorus/refrain; mass clog dancing to a penny whistle, a coalliery brass band playing English Country Gardens, whilst actors picnic in some kind of creation of a cottage garden, perhaps also containing a whopping Green Man; English actors reciting some of our many fine poets and playwrights; a mass of costumed folk forming a huge Constable - The Haywain, maybe...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

"going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony" (me).

Manchester is a very pop city, WAV, giving us some of the finest & uniquely English popular music of all time; The Smiths, The Fall, Joy Division, New Order, Oasis, Freddy & the Dreamers, Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, The Hollies et al. See Here for a full list...(IB)...frankly, as with Ewan MacColl, I, from Manchester way, would rather ramble; and pop derived from AMERICAN religious music - The Beatles even tried talking in American accents! God help us.
To IE: I listen to quite a lot of Scottish Gaelic radio, and it's mostly authentic unaccompanied singing but also with Scottish pipes, harps, etc. - the only thing I don't like is the Scottish Gaelic tradition of mimicking Amerindian/native American chants and drums.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Why not Stubbs? I know who could play what part.....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

Here's a Whopping Green Man as found in the Scarecrow Festival in the village of Wray, Lancashire, back in May. Methinks he's a very modern take on the traditional Green Man of British folk custom, but handsomely impressive nevertheless. I would have thought with you being of Mancunian origin you would have went for Lowry rather than Constable...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM

To IE: I listen to quite a lot of Scottish Gaelic radio, and it's mostly authentic unaccompanied singing but also with Scottish pipes, harps, etc. - the only thing I don't like is the Scottish Gaelic tradition of mimicking Amerindian/native American chants and drums.

Oh lord, where do I even start with this one?!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

The Beatles even tried talking in American accents

As does Eric Burdon but I still reckon he's one of the finest blues singers ever, and a credit to his native Tyneside.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

Can you give me a specific example of the Scottish Gaelic tradiion of mimicking Amerindian chants and drums?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

By far not my favourite band, but this track always seemed very Noel Coward-ish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMz-wi50ACU
It's probably worth pointing out that he (Coward) emulated or borrowed from American music.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

One wonders what WAV would think of the Armenian Navy Band.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM

IE - the Gaels do mimick Amerindian chants and drums, I promise. It derives partly from an empathy over loss of lands, etc., but, still, I don't like it - however, as I say, most of what I hear on Gaelic radio, via satellite, is very enjoyable indeed.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Well... as I have tried pointing out to him, how does he feel about music that comes from a wide diaspora of shared culture, not ethnicity? Sephardic and Ladino music for one. Virtually all throughout Europe you have tradition and language from the past that linger on hundreds of years later. Thus a singer like the wonderful Elena Ledda from Sardinia sings much material in Catalan.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

Arto Tuncboyaciyan of the aforementioned Armenian Navy Band is an interesting case. An Armenian from Turkey, he plays in a wide variety of styles, from traditional, to Jazz, to Mediterranean, to rock, but he plays it as an Armenian. He isn't a slave to music, especially to a notion of this is folk music because this is supposedly how it was played since the days of blessed St Mesrop and time immemorial, but he makes whatever he plays Armenian. WAV, if you were to try and tell an Armenian that this music isn't real Armenian, but a borrowing of other cultures, they would laugh in your face.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Some glories of English music.

A couple of thoughts - well, three. First, the form of WAV's observations is unappealing; they seem to consist of an endless list of things people shouldn't do and people who should stop doing them. Word to the wise: if you don't like Runrig/the Beatles/the Fall, try not listening to them. More to the point, don't talk about them - talk about the musicians you do like, if there are any.

Second, the content of what WAV has to say isn't just peevish and negative; I think it's also profoundly unhistorical. I love the music that was made in England (and Scotland, and Ireland) a hundred and more years ago, but that country isn't there any more. As well as a land of ploughboys and milkmaids, England was the heart of vast trading network and a global empire. Those things can't be wished away, and nor can their consequences - which include a high degree of multicultural cross-pollination (see links above). To say that English culture in 2008 is clog-dancing and Constable isn't quaint or eccentric, it's just false.

Third, who cares what WAV thinks anyway? Why do we keep coming back to play whack-a-mole with him?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

Having taken a few anthropology courses when I was in school, I am a bit confused as to just what "English culture" is.

What is generally regarded as the first piece of English literature is an epic poem, Beowulf, author unknown. Written in Old English, but the hero is a Dane and most of the action takes place in what is now Denmark and Sweden. I've heard the speculation that it may have been written originally in Danish (or Old Norse) and someone translated it into Old English. So the first work of English literature may not be English at all.

Considering that we--even WAV--can all be traced back (via mitochondrial DNA) to an African woman some 200,000 years ago, no matter how you slice it, Britain is a land of immigrants. Very little is known about the first peoples to populate the British Isles. Were these the builders of stone circles, or did they come later? Then came the Celts from the European continent. Then came the Angles. And the Saxons. The raids of the Norsemen on the coasts of England, and even the occasional community of Vikings quite probably led to a lot of Nordic genes seeding the English population of the time. Then, they came again, but this time the spoke French, having established themselves in the north of France:   the Normans.

Was it, perhaps, a bucolic scene of a shepherd and a milkmaid romping in verdant fields, complete with a string orchestra playing "Greensleeves" in the background, that constituted a local version of Garden of Eden, and pure English culture can be traced back to this event?

So—as a mere bumpkin who lives over here in the Colonies, I'm curious to know what constitutes pure, unadulterated English culture?

Don Firth