The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:58 AM

Pip could that charge be leveled at you?

No, absolutely not. I see every side of all my arguments, including the sides that other people see and I don't. Except that I do see them, because I see every side of my arguments, as I said to begin with.

Seriously, I take your point! I may be seeing racism where it's not there. On the other hand, I know that it's possible not to see racism when it is there - particularly in one's own views.

The way it works with WAV, I think, is that he doesn't see the implications of the views he proclaims. WAV hasn't said that he'd like to make my wife take an Englishness test and deport her if she fails - in fact I'm sure he'd recoil from the idea - but it's the logical implication of his views. If you believe 'mass immigration' was bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here. If you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

If, on the other hand, all you're saying is that indigenous cultures (including English cultures) should be respected, then (a) I agree with you 100% and (b what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with immigration, which you can therefore shut up about.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM

I donno Pip, you seem to be reading a lot into his words that he did not intend. That seems like miscommunication to me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM

"You like me, Stigweard, should perform E. trads plus hymns and, perhaps, have a go at the works of some of our classical composers;"

Well, I did ask for it, and at least you've replied WAV, so thanks.

But why should I perform English trad? I don't mind it, and I love the singing of the Watersons, Coppers et al, but it doesn't float my boat like the Irish stuff does.

What about my Welsh heritage? Should I abandon that completely? Although born and brought up in England the Welsh side of my family had a deep formative influence. In fact, that sense of being Welsh was a tangible part of our upbringing and although many Welsh people might disagree with me in my soul I feel as Welsh as I do English.

As for the hymns, forget it. I enjoy singing hymns for their own sake but to me monotheism is an anathema and I don't see why I should worship a God who has contributed to the suffering of so many of my ancestors and people in the world today.

I'll stick with 'Fathom the Bowl' and 'Follow me up to Carlow'.

Twll dy din de!

stigweard

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

Once again WAV,

To IE - genuine asylum seekers should be helped, via the UN, to their NEAREST (particularly in terms of CULTURE) safe country. And the way the world is now, with almost global capitalism, one can say either capitalist or economic immigration/emigration

This is nothing resembling an answer to what I wrote. I asked you to give me an example, you have none forthcoming-I think because you honestly do not have an actual answer. That's why you quote verbatim again and again. You who espouse so much, cannot give me an answer. I also caught you with a contradiction. Your own words. Two different statements regarding what you call genuine asylum seekers. You're not even going to defend that, or explain that?

Myself, and LH, and Ruth, Pip, Don, and all the others can reflect and answer direct questions in a thorough and thought provoking manner. YOUR ANSWER TO MY QUESTION WAS THE SUBJECT OF MY QUESTION! Sorry for the caps, but that is a cop-out.
Answer please for me, the sensible questions asked of you by myself and others without resorting to a cut and paste job.

By the way Jack, that was never 5 minutes!
I told you, I can't argue with you unless you've paid!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

IE, that's not argument, it's just contradiction. :)

Is Fathom the Bowl Irish...?

Off to Whitby now. I hope Louis Killen sings some Irish songs. Play nicely...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM

Sorry Pip - you said "mix" not "blend" and I - and even, to a lesser extent, New (Scottish) Labour, after a decade of pro-immigrationism/celebrating the diverse state - say assimilation and greater restriction/regulation of immigration: for several (NOT one, as you just suggested) reasons (above and here).
"cultural chauvinism" (Jack!)...that's NOT me either - I love the world being multiculatural and cetainly don't want what some Victorians may have - a world full of English-like men and women.
"cultural isolationism" (Ruth)...that's NOT me either - I'm saying fair-trade and eco-travel between nations (such as my 40 countries).
Stigweard - you clearly see yourself as Bittish and I as English. By the way, another reason for RESTRICTING myself to an English (or thereabouts) repertoire is because there is just so much good folk music out there, and I have only so much time and ability; however, my main one is that I think nationalism WITHOUT imperialism (e.g., English NOT Brittish) is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

What's wrong WAV-no answer for me?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM

How is reggae American, or is that your shorthand for 'music I don't like', WAV?

Has anyone seen the French film The Adventures of Rabbi Jacob?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:48 AM

"What's wrong WAV-no answer for me?" (IE)...there was no contradiction and I DID explain what I meant by "nearest"...then you went on about "returning" which I hadn't said anything about.
And, Ruth, I never said reggae was American, either - but it's from the Caribbean, which is part of the Americas.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

What was nearest for a Jew in the 1930s?

Sounds like one of two possibilities. One, either you have no idea what UB40 plays and thus spoke out of ignorance, or two, you were saying that reggae is American.

"Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

Like Ewan MacColl, I think Ian has a great gritty folk voice; but it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

Volgadon...I seem to recall someone had mentioned 2 sons in a pop band, and pop is one of the American genres of music. "What was nearest for a Jew in the 1930s?"...That would depend, and I think you would know more about that than me, frankly, but do you agree that, after the war, the Jewish people probably should have been given their own nation within Europe?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM

"but do you agree that, after the war, the Jewish people probably should have been given their own nation within Europe? "

What the f***? There were Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles, Jewish etc etc, not just Jews.

And what country does 'folk' belong to? Oh, sorry, none of them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

So, you admit to not even knowing what the sons were playing. Various forms of American music are only part of the influences hat made up pop. I would go so far as to say that pop owes just as much to Britain as it does to the USA.
To my ears, this really doesn't sound very American at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQAR-nx4w88
Or this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3gX47rHGg&feature=related

So, if the Jews were given their own nation within Europe, where does that leave the Jews of Morroco, Algiera, Kurdistan and Yemen, to name but a few?
And no, I don't agree that they should have been given a nation within Europe.
Anyway, what would it depend on?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

That's pedantic bullshit WAV. Helped-Returned. Either way you are saying that genuine asylum seekers should be brought to another place nearest to where they are from-correct? There absolutely IS contradiction in the two statements you made that I quoted. England should continue to accept its share of genuine asylum seekers AND genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest safe country. CONTRADICTION. Examples? Where have you explained what you mean by nearest? I asked for a specific example-you offered me none. You answered my question with the question itself. THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER. How about this then. I'll answer the question. You can't answer my questions because you don't know the answers. Theories are fine, I have my own. But if you cannot, or are unwilling to back them up with precedent, then you will not convince me of anything. I repeat-ANYTHING.

And Volgadon and Joseph are spot on regarding a post war European Jewish nation WAV. Maybe the Gypsy's should have been given a European nation too WAV. Lets see, you have Gypsies from Romania, Hungary, Spain, France....oh yeah, that makes complete sense. After all, they are all Gypsy's right? They all should be placed together.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

I ... say assimilation and greater restriction/regulation of immigration

And around we go again. Some way up thread, I asked you "Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?" You answered "Yes".

Now, if you believe 'mass immigration' has been bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here: there's no other way to limit immigration. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

What am I missing? How am I misinterpreting you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

Volgadon, I seem to recall, now lives in Israel, having left Europe and this, along with other things posted, tells me that she (I think?) probably does know more about this than me, as said; but a lot of people from Europe (from many lands as you say, Joseph) who practice the Jewish religion left to settle in Israel, where there has sadly been a lot of ethnic conflict, over land, since.
You're missing the "given that all that immigration has occurred, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON" part, Pip.
IE - I said, repeatedly, culture is the most important aspect when considering the nearest safe country for an asylum seeker.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

If this thread had legs it would be in the Olympics...long distance runners' division. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

So again, I say, give me a hypothetical here WAV. An asylum seeker from Cuba trying to enter the US should be helped to what nearest safe country? Again I ask, what if said nation does not seek, nor want asylum seekers? Again I ask when, since you contradicted yourself, you determine what factors constitute allowable genuine asylum? You are the one who said it, I'm trying to fill in the many blanks you have left. You are saying within your certain rules, in your case England, should allow asylum seekers, but in other cases, a deliberate choice would be made to send an asylum seeker elsewhere. SOmewhere with a similar culture, since you feel that is the most important thing. What if THAT culture exists only within the country someone is fleeing from? Then what? And, like the chicken and the egg, or what is folk, how do YOU propose to define what that culture is? Is it language only? Ancient culture? Music? Cinema? Architecture? Fashion?

Keep digging that hole WAV.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

B-Zing! B-Zing! B-Zing! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! B-Zing!

(sound of hamster running furiously on inner mental exercise wheel inside next poster's brain...)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

IE - an Honours in Humanities must be easier than trying to answer your serial questioning...you make some of my BA tutors seem soporific.
1. the nearest Spanish-speaking nation I suppose - I think Fidel himself was in Mexico for a while before his brave successful return.
2. Well it's not the nearest safe country then, is it?
3. the standard factors - threat due to beliefs etc.
4. The UN should take control and determine who and which is the nearest safe country for them.
5. I said nearest NOT the exact same culture!!!
6. It's all those things - WONTS.
7. If I were to "keep digging", I'd hope NOT to end up in your backyard, with all due respect, IE.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

P.S: no cigars, and I don't even know if it got there, but I did send a copy of "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse" to the main library in Havana.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

You're missing the "given that all that immigration has occurred, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON" part, Pip.

You're missing a question you've already answered, WAV. Some way upthread, I asked you "Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?" You answered "Yes".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Yes I said "yes", Pip, and yes I said immigration/emigration regulation/restrictions should increase - the world over, via a stronger UN.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Sorry, but I live in the city. I don't have a backyard, unless Central Park counts. Fidel's brave successful return is not something a lot of Cubans would call it WAV.

Ok, well thanks all the same, because at least that was some clarification. Before you accuse me of being soporific, I would suggest atempting to answer some of the questions put to you, respectfully. What you suggest would also entail a rather large UN infastructure in place, in virtually every nation on earth dedicated solely to this problem. I'm not exaggerating when I say that either. If you want the UN to make these determinations, then there would have to be employees in place to determine who is a viable candidate for asylum-ie, those seeking refuge for their political, religous, and sexual grounds (by this I mean sexual orientation, as well as sexual crime against women). That would have to be a massive infastructure, and it would have to coexist with the border controls already in place in each nation.

Of course, there are people who make that determination now, who do not work for the UN, my aunt is one of them-in her case in Ireland. It's a tough call. I don't know if it has changed, but I know that in Ceuta, there were hundreds of Africans housed in a complex, overseen by the Spanish, who were waiting to get into a EU country. So on top of its own border operations, you had the costs of running this facility as well. I'm all for ideas WAV, and I believe that there is a need for a different approach, but I don't believe your ideas are possible. Nice though they may be, but there is a lot of reality out there that isn't so nice.

I mentioned previously the rather sad plight of the Saharawis, living in camps in Algeria for 30 or so years. I have always hoped for a stronger UN WAV. Despite it all, all the diatrabe that goes on here at Mudcat, including from myself, despite all that, I wish the UN could come up with solutions for situations like that. Sadly, its not the case. What can I do? I can petition for human rights, I can make people aware of political and social strife. I can share my thoughts and feelings and educate, and be educated. The one thing I can't do is profess that I have the answers. No one person does.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

pop is one of the American genres of music

Given the truly international input into pop music and its deep roots in African & European cultures, how on earth can you say that it's one of the American genres?

Where's Spleen when you need him? Pop, like Folk, is not a genre, it is a process that has yielded a plethora of distinctive musics - certainly as distinctive & culturally significant as Folk, if not more so. Here's a few names for you to Google: Magma, Soft Machine, Gong, Univers Zero, Sigur Ros, David Bowie, Roxy Music, Third Ear band, The Man Band, Henry Cow, Jabula, etc. etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

No - I didn't say you were soporific, IE; I lightheartedly suggested you can be quite demanding. I have been to New York and, as well as Central Park, I made a visit to the UN; one thing I remember liking is the idea of one nation/one vote (which, I think you'll agree, both your nation and mine have sadly overridden). And, if it does become stronger/better respected, there will surely be less suffering in our world.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Yes I said "yes", Pip.

OK. So, explain something to me. If you believe 'mass immigration' has been bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here: there's no other way to limit immigration. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

Am I right? If not, how am I misinterpreting you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:12 PM

Yes, Pip - but with some qualifications that I made above, regarding the different kinds of immigration/reasons for emigrating. There are some immigrants in England, e.g., who also think that, FROM NOW ON, restrictions should increase/numbers decrease.
And it's surely silly to say that because something has gone on for so long, it must continue. Slave immigration sadly went on legally for a long time.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

Volgadon is a he, not from Europe, born and bred in Israel, who spent a few years in Russia just recently. His parents are American, one half of the family isn't Jewish, but of very old Anglo-Scottish extraction, sprinkled with a few Norwegians and Danes. The other half, the Jewish half, mainly came from Czernowitz, an Ukrainian town under Austro-Hungarian rule, next door to Bessarabia. Also to fit into the mix are Pomeranians, Rumanians, Poles, Galicianers, and non-Jewish Danes.
He grew up in a town mainly populated by immigrants from North Africa and Iran, with a fair amount of Yemenites, Kurds and Iraqis and Indians, next door to both an old Jewish Rumanian town, a kibbutz of English and Yiddish speakers, and a Bedouin village. His grandparents lived on a farming community mainly consisting of Moroccans. His sister's babysitter was Persian and she spoke Farsi (long since forgotten) just as soon as she spoke in English and Hebrew. His early childhood coincided with the break-up of the Soviet Union and massive immigration from the USSR. He later moved closer to the Sea of Galilee, an area dotted with churches as well as mosques and synagogues. Not too far are several Jewish settlements, a Bedouin village and an Arab town of Muslims, Christians and Druze. In his area council there is also a Circassian village. The Circassians are from the Caucasus and were resettled here by the Ottomans. In his childhood he grew up with people listening to French and Spanish music, as well as American, British and ethnic things like Yemenite, Greek, Turkish, Persian and Arab music. That, as well as Israeli folksongs. The first song he recalls hearing was Old Maid in the Garrett, being played on the radio. Especially vivid is a childhood visit to the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem. His parents were friends with a lot of people serving in the UN peacekeeping forces, espcially Austrians and Polynesians.
In the army he served with Caucasians, Georgians and Ethiopians.
Not to blow his own trumpet, but he has met and associated with people from nearly every corner in the world.   
There, a potted culturo-ethnical biography.


So, where was the nearest country, culturally, for a German Jew of Polish extraction, in the 1930s? Intersting question, isn't that?

Out of pure curiosity, why the library in Havanah?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

Wow Volgadon-fascinating background! It wasn't until just a few years ago as I got into world music more that I started putting the connections between places and people better. It was through the music that I understood the history better actually. Suddenly everything became linked, and I had a reference point to understand what Andalusian actually is, or Calabrian, or Armenian. That's purely on a musical basis, culture cannot be defined by what are the artificial borders we use now. It has a much broader geographical range, a point I have tried to get WAV to understand.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM

Support, Volgadon - just in case anyone there might like to have a read; as I've made clear, I much prefer a regulated market to a free one, and would agree with Fidel, etc., on quite a lot, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

Really? Most of Fidel's policies were destructive, both economically AND culturally. Yes, he could get things done, but doesn't mean that he knew what he was doing!

I should also mention that in the local library were several Asterix books, as well as Tove Jansson, and many other writers from around the world. On TV we would get Blinky Bill and Boes,a mong other things. Far from damaging my own culture, it gave me a lot of common ground around Belgians and Ozzies.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

And once again I forgot to emntion that most of the shows on TV back then were British.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

..and I almost forgot that I'll be at the Durham Gathering tomorrow, so here's the next Weekly Walkabout, a tad early...

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

A software protocol has now been set up so that each succeeding post to this thread will register as a vote for Chongo Chimp and the APP in November's presidential election.

Post frequently and succinctly! The future of our nation rides on the outcome.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Not just "our nation", Little Hawk!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

So LH, do this have this thing rigged so non-Canuck votes count? I hope so, vote early and often.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Absolutely! Anyone can vote in this manner. It's time that the world had its collective voice represented this way, I think.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM

One more from me. I'm hoping Chongo can institute a one-world government. Maybe then he can put WAVs ideas into practice.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

it's surely silly to say that because something has gone on for so long, it must continue. Slave immigration sadly went on legally for a long time.

True - and it would have been better if it had never happened at all. That's precisely the point that I've been trying to get you to acknowledge - that you're opposed, in principle, to the immigration that has already happened.

To recapitulate: you believe that, in order for English culture to flourish, many individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here now.

If someone says "I would rather Mr Jones didn't live next door", it's a safe bet they don't like Mr Jones.

If someone says "I would rather there were fewer hotdog vendors in town", chances are they dislike hotdog vendors.

And if they say "I wish there were fewer people of non-English cultures in this country", it seems to me that they're expressing prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:43 PM

"I've seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA."

I don't deny, and never did, that there have been ethnic conflicts in the USA. But for the most part, those ethnic conflicts have been initiated by small coteries of racists, and within recent years, those who endeavor to start them often find themselves confronted by members of their own ethnic group, who prevent the conflict from developing further.

WAV, you say you have seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA. Will you kindly enumerate when and where you saw these conflicts? And which particular ethnic groups they were between?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM

Vote APP in November!

You know you want to. Just do it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

"Is Fathom the Bowl Irish...?"

Not as far as I am aware. I should have written this clearer; for me the English have the songs and the Irish have the tunes (although that's a pretty loose interpretation).

"Stigweard - you clearly see yourself as Bittish and I as English"

I certainly bloody don't see myself as British at all. In fact, I would go as far as to say I reject the artifice of 'Britishness' utterly, in the same way I reject the Union Jack as being my flag and I reject those sponging gits in Buck Pal as having any right to rule over me or me any obligation to loyalty to them, or their useless political onanists in Westminster as representing me in any way, shape or form.

During the last ice age, a group of people crossed the land bridge from the continent and decided to settle in the green and pleasant land they found. After the ice melted they realised they lived on a fine set of islands with cool green forests, high mountains and deep blue lakes. There were no borders, countries or accents, and everyone got on just fine. They loved the land, the animals and above all the music they heard around them - the melodys played by the running of the streams and becks, the vast sweeping cadences of the winds caressing the hills, fells and mountains and the rhythm of the rooks wing beating home to the roost as the day draws to a close.

These people, who went on to populate all the many islands of the archipeligo were the ancestors of stigweard, who still delights in the music and stories of these Isles he calls home, whose diverse traditions are the musical heritage his ancestors have handed him.

So nadgers to nationalism and petty prejudices - they're to be thundered against wherever they crop up; all they do is demonstrate the small-mindedness and myopic view of the worst sort of parochialism . People have been coming here for over 14,000 years contributing to our individual and shared cultures - long may they continue to do so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:35 AM

I'm hoping Chongo can institute a one-word government.


Ook!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

He's working on that. Just wait till you hear the APP cheering section at football games.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM

I just got back from the Folkworks Durham Gathering and, as usual, I have no problem with the quality but am disappointed by the selection - of tutors and tunes. I thought, as I caught the train home, that when something similar is held in Scotland there's no way it would have such an amount of English culture (and I agree with them). Accordingly, if you'll pardon the pun, I agree with Stigweard on monarchism itself, at least.
Don - I think you'll agree that normally I'm quite frank, but the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary; but you agree that, whilst respecting land rights, as above, it's good for Americans to see themselves as Americans - it's Americanisation/globalisation that I'm against, as part of my multicultural world argument.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:56 PM

the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary

I think that's for Don to decide.

Word to the wise, David. You're not coming across as principled and aloof - just shifty and evasive.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

WAV, you seem to be incapable of answering a direct question.

I do not agree that "the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary." You made an assertion. Now back it up.

And lest you think otherwise, I most definitely do not agree that "it's good for Americans to see themselves as Americans." Nationalistic claptrap of all flavors is one of the major causes of strife in this world, and the sooner we get rid of it, the better chance the people of this planet will have to survive into the 22nd century and possibly even beyond.

I echo the general sentiments expressed by stigweard just above.

I am a human, and an inhabitant of the Planet Earth. When and if other intelligences are found in the Cosmos, I shall broaden even that categorization. Nationalism, racism, and, for that matter, even speciesism can be carried much too far, with sometimes disastrous results—as we keep seeing!

Constantly saying "I'm proud to be an American" or "I'm proud to be English," or "I'm proud to be (whatever)," implies that you may not have much else to be proud of.

A rather pathetic state of affairs, really. Have your ever read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

Okay - the event that made the news several nights in a row, in Aus., before I repatriated, was the ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s, I think. I was there later that decade when, thankfully, it had calmed down, and, for what it's worth, I got okay with people there, on my visit.
Also, nationalism with conquest IS BAD, but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM

". . . ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s. . . ."

I recall about that time a small neo-Nazi group wanting to hold a parade in a town in the state of Idaho, but this was opposed by other citizens of the town. So where in California was this ethnic conflict? And between which ethnic groups? And what was the nature of the conflict?

I agree that nationalism with conquest is bad. But oftentimes free-floating nationalism carries an implication of "We're better than they are," and this, in turn, can eventually lead to attempted conquest. "We (being better people) deserve their resources more than they do!"

Yes, eco-travel and fair trade are to be encouraged. But why via the United Nations?

The U. N. is not a tourist bureau. And regulating the movements of people, whether individually or in groups, is not the function of the U. N., nor should it be.

The U. N. has fallen short of what it was originally intended to be, largely because of the selfish nationalistic interests of some of its member states. The disputes the U. N. often tries to deal with the most generally occur over matters of human rights, frequently the way some nations treat their own people, especially ethnic minorities who have as much of a historical right to be there than the majority of the country's population.

The U. N. already has plenty on its plate to deal with. It has more important things to do than play tourist agent for eco-travelers.

WAV, learn something about the United Nations.

Don Firth