BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?

Subject: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:36 PM

I feel sick and dismayed at today's news in Binghamton, NY where thirteen people were killed by a gunmen, himself included.

A string of attacks in the U.S. in the last month left 44 people dead in all.

A gunman killed 10 people and himself in Samson, Ala.; a traffic stop shootout in Oakland, Calif., left four police officers and the gunman dead; an apparent murder-suicide in Santa Clara, Calif., left six dead; and a gunman went on a rampage at a nursing home Sunday, killing seven elderly residents and a nurse who cared for them.

When is it going to stop? Why isn't there more outrage? I hope this will not turn into a gun discussion as much as a discussion about society and what we, as individuals, can do...it just feels so random, overwhelming, sickening...there have to be some positive things which can be done to thwart the message that violence solves problems, doesn't there?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:04 PM

I don't do 'outrage' anymore. It doesn't accomplish one single positive thing, and there seems to be an infinite number of things to be outraged by. They are almost always far away and beyond any influence I might have, so outrage just leads to frustration which is probably a huge factor in what causes people to go lash out at others in the first place. I'd bet those people that killed others were outraged about something.

I think the most effective thing any of us can do is be locally responsible and take care of one another where we live. Be friends to our friends and maybe be ready to help people we don't know. Leave the outrage and look for kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 08:29 PM

I hope from the capture of the nursing home gunman the police and the psychologists can learn enough to "profile" these people. There are those who should be in psychiatric care, those who should be on medication, and those who are "normal" (whatever that is).

I suspect that they experience a sense of hopelessness, of impotence, that they are overwhelmed and since they feel they can do nothing why not end it all in such a way that they will get one, tiny, moment of power and fame. It's called "suicide by cop" and the police hate it, it literally makes them physically and emotionally ill.

We need to learn to recognize who these people might be, not be outraged, searching for "blame", and reacting in an unthinking manner.

This is not about guns -- there are other ways to kill a lot of people and I shan't enumerate them. This is about our society asking why and how.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:07 PM

Thank you, both, for those very thought-filled thoughts. I agree. You have both articulated some of the feelings i was having but couldn't put into words.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:21 PM

Hold on to your chair, Kat...I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!
As time goes on, and an investigation looks into it, we'll know more about the causes.
As an interesting side note, somewhat related, this I have from personal knowledge: When the director and producers, of "The Silence of the Lambs", were doing the casting, for the film, Jody Foster, was not their first pick, for the lead. Michelle Pfeiffer was. When Michelle read the treatment(overview of the story, and script), she handed it back to them, and said, "I don't think it is appropriate, to look into, and glorify the workings and mind of a serial killer"...atta lady!!!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 09:39 PM

"When Michelle read the treatment(overview of the story, and script), she handed it back to them, and said, "I don't think it is appropriate, to look into, and glorify the workings and mind of a serial killer"...atta lady!!!" GtS

Ah. I see. When you don't know or understand what motivates a person and why he or she decides upon certain actions we're all better off.

Easy. From now on, I'll just not read newspapers - oh, and not books either - and my world will be much safer.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:14 PM

I applaud Michelle Pfeiffer. To look into the workings and mind of a serial killer, yes there might be some value in that. Glorify, no. I hardly think movies such as "Silence of the Lambs" give us any true insight into the mind of a twisted killer. The movie was made for suspense, shock and "entertainment" - not to educate people about the psychology that motivates serial killers.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:29 PM

I have known, and currently know, serial killers -- men and women who have killed more than a few people. I myself would have done so. They are in the Army, the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force, the Coast Guard.

NOW the military recognizes that when someone is trained to kill they also have had a bit of their conscience stripped away and before again living a "normal" life they must have it returned as much as possible. Some (and I'm thinking of one of my friends in particular) are so badly damaged that they require life-long care and support. My friend was a "black" sniper in Vietnam, operating out of Cambodia and Laos -- and may you never understand what I just said if you don't know. He's 100% disabled and about twice a year spends a few weeks in the VA Hospital's psych ward. (He also has a wonderful model railroad and is overall a very gentle person.)

NOW help can be given to those who like my friend have been damaged by sanctioned serial killing. And now it's time to apply what we know and what we can learn to civilians.

(As a side point and so you know I'm not just talking out of "book larnin'", I will here tell you that I am undergoing treatment from the VA for PTSD. It's a very, very hard path to walk -- and no, I'm not about to start shooting.)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 11:31 PM

And I no longer watch war movies, war histories on television, play war-based video games.... Fencing and TARGET shooting is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 08:17 AM

Part of the problem may be that some of the people who go on these rampages have no way of getting professional help for whatever mental problems they might be suffering. Even the VA, it seems, is efficacious dependent on the place you live - Kendall found that out many years ago. Too many people just seem to fall through the cracks.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 08:49 AM

Here is an interesting conundrum. Paying disability for PTSD while the individual works for the government and is also allowed to own and manage firearms. What will we think of next?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 09:25 AM

There's obviously a wide range of competency levels in mental health workers, isn't there?

I haven't heard that any of the people involved in killing incidents had been in treatment. I'd guess they probably should have been, but I'm more worried about the ones who aren't getting help.

I'm in treatment by the VA too, and I'm on disability. It doesn't mean I'm crippled.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:06 AM

This post is probably going to make some folks mad. But I want to say what my reaction was when Hardi told me about this news story yesterday. I had been away from TV or news, in the pool, when he blundered into the "Breaking News" on the channel the fitness center runs in the cardio room. And Binghamton is in our area. Out on the edge, but it's part of our roaming territory.


"When did I sign up to follow ALL the bad news in the world?" I asked. (I meant "we" as a society.) "Yesterday it was a rape in some faraway country. Rape is terrible, of course, and global unity is a good thing I guess-- but isn't the news covering more and more crime than it used to? When did I agree to take it ALL in?"

Well, of course, I didn't. Not awarely. But by exposing myself to a certain degree of "news" coverage, I bought into their marketing plan to harness my compassion for their advertisers. There's something sucky about that, something sick, something WAY beyond my reasons for tuning in.

I gotta find a limit there! I have to find my boundary. If I am going to respond to any of these situations, or to any similar ones, I have to create the opportunity for balance. I have to redraw the menu of news inputs and the menu of perspectives I intentionally hold before I let all this toxicity in.

I don't want thicker skin. I want thin, responsive skin, guided by wisdom and intentionality. I cannot allow media marketing imperatives dull my thin skin, or grow it thicker.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:07 AM

Ironic, after all this continuing stuff, that DC's gun control law stands to be gutted soon as a price for any representation. Maybe if Obama gets a chance to appoint some Supreme Court justices, the pendulum will start to swing the other way.

And I haven't ever been tempted to watch "Silence of the Lambs"--or any of the many other movies which glorify violence just to titillate the viewer. Jan says the UK attitude towards sex as opposed to violence is just about the opposite of the US view. And I tend to agree with her that the UK view is much healthier.

The American combination of the worship of the individual and our heavily pro-gun history, with an endorsement of solving problems by violence, has brought a lot of tragedy to the US--and the world.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:09 AM

The question I have, and there are more questions that theories about answers, is what makes it more preferable to a person to go shoot people instead of get help? They know something's wrong, and they know they're in pain. Is it just that it's easier to give in to an impulse and die than try to fix their lives and live? I don't think they believe there's anyone that can or will help them and just give up.

It's pretty easy to understand the despair in these times, because people in general seem pretty cold and uncaring, if not downright adversarial. I think that has to change, but we can only change ourselves and maybe affect others with the way we are. I know there will always be dangerous individuals, but I don't think most people WANT to be so isolated and fatalistic.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:22 AM

Indeed, where is the out rage?
It is written that mankind can adjust to anything, and that may be his downfall.

When the state mental wards were cleared and the inmates were put onto the streets, what did we expect would happen?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 10:31 AM

In the US guys are taught from a very early age that it is much more "manly" to be totally self-sufficient, including solving all your problems on your own. That's one thing that even the mentally unstable realize. And the US has a long history, aided and abetted by Hollywood and TV, of solving problems by violence, and especially with guns.

We've just had 8 years of somebody who swallowed the whole line.

And none of this is new.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:26 AM

Kat and Maryff, I still agree with Kat..and also applaud Michelle, as well. (Personal attacks removed.) As Mary pointed out, as the gist of Michelle's remark, senseless killings, or the 'mind' that entertains those thoughts, do not need to be glorified! Perhaps a little less focus, and shock ENTERTAINMENT value, place on that may help. Also, any one who thinks that our men and women in the armed forces, get off on being serial killers, obviously has very very very, little knowledge about the subject. and keep their bent within their skulls, as not to let on to everyone, that they don't know much. Kat, you are quite correct!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:49 AM

I have said earlier all I intend to say on the subject and shan't post again to this thread.

But do consider Winnenden, Erfurt, Nanterre, Zug -- and I haven't even listed anything in the Republic of Ireland or the UK.

THIS IS NOT JUST A PROBLEM THE US HAS TO DEAL WITH -- IT'S A GLOBAL PROBLEM. And don't give me that crap about the US having such a high crime rate: in 2007 England, France, Holland, Poland and Germany all had higher assault rates than the US.

Let's STOP the glorification of killing in popular culture, including music, movies, television, video games....

(Oh, GUEST hg: I don't receive a disability pension from the VA for PTSD. And my friend Don isn't permitted to own or be near firearms or weapons.)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:53 AM

Well, I don't know what I am correct about other than stating my own feelings. I mostly have asked for and received input. I do not appreciate you coming in here, GfS, and denigrating others who have posted with their hearts on their shirtsleeves, so to speak. If you have something to contribute, please do so in a cogent, non-attacking matter. Personal attacks are not allowed, as you well know, and will be deleted.

Susan, I hear what you are saying but we cannot hide our heads in the sand and I do not believe 44 people are all part of a marketing ploy. I rarely get any news via tv and am circumspect in what I do read/see/hear of the news, but I also know it is not going to go away just because I choose not to listen/watch. I started this thread because this is a societal problem which is not going away, in fact, it seems to be increasing in frequency and I want to hear what my friends think about it. I am reminded of Columbine and the incredible outpouring we had amongst us.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:30 PM

A note, GfS: I was 11B40, Light Weapons Infantry, in Army, in a combat zone. I held Expert Badge in rifle, auto.rifle, and carbine. I have also fired the M-60 machine gun, the M-1 and M14 rifles, the M-1 .45 "Grease Gun", the M-2 BMG, the M-79 grenade launcher, the .30 caliber M-1919A6 machine gun, the M1911A1 .45 pistol, various rocket launchers, and a shitload of other weaponry. I've taught bayonet and hand-to-hand combat. I've been shot at, and I've shot back. I can use hand grenades of various types, set and operate various land mines (including "toe poppers" and Claymores), and make and use improvised explosives and explosive devices.

(Personal attack deleted)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:45 PM

Rap, huh?
Listen, we care about you, OK? Even if I don't see the post you're alluding to, some individuals wind people up and attack because they don't have much to contribute otherwise. The only thing they really know anything about is how to piss people off. Like THAT'S not a big part of what's wrong--if you don't HAVE an enemy, MAKE one. Live for the fight, live for the debate, live for proving you're better than the other guy and live for making somebody else miserable--or dead.

I'm guessing that will be deleted because it certainly looks like a personal attack to me. This one can go too, but Rap, you got friends on your side.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:45 PM

More shootings:

Police official: 3 officers killed in Pa. shooting
By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI – 36 minutes ago

PITTSBURGH (AP) — A man opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said. Friends said he feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.

Three officers were killed, said a police official at the scene who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. Police spokeswoman Diane Richard would only say that at least five officers were wounded, but wouldn't give any other details.

The man who fired at the officers was arrested after a several-hour standoff. One witness reported hearing hundreds of shots.

The shootings occurred just two weeks after four police officers March 21 in Oakland, Calif., in the deadliest day for U.S. law enforcement since Sept. 11, 2001.

Police did not immediately release the gunman's identity, but his friends at the scene described him as a young man who thought the Obama administration would ban guns.

One friend, Edward Perkovic, said the gunman feared "the Obama gun ban that's on the way" and "didn't like our rights being infringed upon." Another longtime friend, Aaron Vire, said he feared that President Obama was going to take away his rights, though he said he "wasn't violently against Obama."

Perkovic, a 22-year-old who said he was the gunman's best friend, said he got a call at work from him in which he said, "Eddie, I am going to die today. ... Tell your family I love them and I love you."

Perkovic said: "I heard gunshots and he hung up. ... He sounded like he was in pain, like he got shot."

Vire, 23, said the gunman once had an Internet talk show but that it wasn't successful. Vire said his friend had an AK-47 rifle and several powerful handguns, including a .357 Magnum.

The officers were called to the home in the Stanton Heights neighborhood at about 7 a.m., Richard said.

Tom Moffitt, 51, a city firefighter who lives two blocks away, said he heard about the shooting on his scanner and came to the scene, where he heard "hundreds, just hundreds of shots. And not just once — several times."

Rob Gift, 45, who lives a block away, said he heard rapid gunfire as he was letting his dog out.

He said the neighborhood of well-kept single-family houses and manicured lawns is home to many police officers, firefighters, paramedics and other city workers.

"It's just a very quiet neighborhood," Gift said.

-snip-

Not that it matters, but this neighborhood is about 5 minutes from where I live.

My condolences to all the family & friends of those who lost their lives in this shooting and all others. I pray for a full recovery for those who were injured.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:49 PM

So Rapaire, because you were trained with all those, do you consider yourself a 'serial killer' as you stated above?/ It is my contention, that all those in the armed services are/were NOT!
Kat, Not only did I agree with you, I was merely defending my position from the inane comments.
And to anyone else, I have held someone who was dying, in my arms, as he died...something I doubt very many of you have experienced. So, save the lectures, about the horrors I haven't experienced!..and to the rest..blaming guns for killing people, is like blaming a spoon, for Rosie O'Donald for being fat!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:59 PM

Rapaire.... "Let's STOP the glorification of killing in popular culture, including music, movies, television, video games...."

I recall saying much the same thing a few times in threads. And, I was set upon by those that do not believe this crap is a problem and those that do not believe in censorship. Could be that some of them also are anti-gun nuts.

Yes... nuts. Those that don't wanna clean up the glorification of violence in the media but want to disarm honest citizens are nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM

I've held someone while they were dying (my mother). I wasn't holding her at the moment she took her final breath, but she was only moments away from it when the paramedics arrived. I suffered from PTSD for several years as a result of that experience (and probably still do to some extent), but I would never presume to tell a war veteran what his or her experiences felt like and how they ought to respond to them or describe them.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

Yes, I have. Several times. With blood and brains all over me. I've loaded body bags into dustoffs, too.

Azizi, I am sorry for this happening, not only in your hometown but anywhere. We as a society MUST do something to help these people.

I shan't be back, and this time I mean it. I won't even peek in.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM

Kat, I do not mean that anyone should hide their heads in the sand. But I do mean that we need to be mindfull about what we take in, and about how we take it in. And then we can be mindfull about what to DO with it.

The marketing hope is that we all tiune in and stayed glued while commecials ad nauseum are fed to our jaw-dropped maws.... the commercial xsuccess of these outletrs (and, increasingly, online outlets) depdnds upon cultivating our paralysis. Our fascinated paralysis.

And I am STILL processing and healing from the 911 coverage I inhaled uncritically as it occurred. I will not allow my heart to be used that way again.

And this does allow me to focus more lovingly, flexibly, and attentively to the horrors going on around me.

It also provides a perspective that informs policy-setting groups in which I now play a part. To do that one has to be able to choose a certain perspective and detachment, and to balance that with time and resources to deal with feelings and reflection.... in these groups I may be opining about people-affecting policy-- one moment-- and counseling the groups' members on their own unhealed 911-type stuff-- the next. The flexibility to shift between these modes depends upon my remaining unhooked by their horror long enough to choose a view from which to offer a healing word or touch. See?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:29 PM

Preaching to the choir, again, Susan...I *saw* years ago when I turned off the television news and when I was writing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:33 PM

Good for you!

I suspect some of us take a different timeline and arrive at wisdom with different life-lessons gained.

I think you might want to take back the "preaching" thing, tho, as I do not preach. :~) I'm only licensed to facilitate discussions and offer meditations.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 04:38 PM

It's just an expression...we all sing.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:07 PM

"I hope this will not turn into a gun discussion..."

"This is not about guns --..."

Oh, but it is about guns as much as it is about society and sick, frustrated individuals. As Azizi quotes "Friends said he feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns." Guns are pervasive in society and in many parts of our sub-cultures, guns are accepted and approved as THE way to settle disputes and raise money.

Sadly, with so many millions of guns already out there, there is very little way the continuing deaths can be stopped by reducing the number OF guns, and the only hope is to identify dangerous people and get them treated and make it very, very very difficult for unstable people to GET guns.

   We have seen a number of violent incidents lately where folks said they saw little sign of problems before the individual did the sad deed. I am 'almost' convinced that the obsession OF the media with 'reporting' every horrible crime in detail, even if it happens 1000 miles away, exacerbates the problem. The more famous crimes get re-run and re-examined on TV programs incessantly. Perhaps the success of Truman Capote's book "In Cold Blood" showed the market for it. We have one local channel where violent crime is 90% of their programming. How much exposure to that can cause an unstable individual to 'explode'? How often do people, even unconciously, seek to emulate or transcend what the see?
...right...no one knows, and we can't prove it in most cases, but I have little faith that it serves as an object lesson or deterrent.

Barring the reduction of availability of guns, I think that restricting the re-enaction and detailed coverage of violent crime is the simplest way to begin approaching the problem.

No outrage? *I* am outraged that some of the real, genuine ways to deal with societal violence are ignored because of perceived 'rights' to own dangerous weapons and dramatize the use of them on TV and in video games.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 06:11 PM

We have seen a number of violent incidents lately where folks said they saw little sign of problems before the individual did the sad deed. I am 'almost' convinced that the obsession OF the media with 'reporting' every horrible crime in detail, even if it happens 1000 miles away, exacerbates the problem. The more famous crimes get re-run and re-examined on TV programs incessantly. Perhaps the success of Truman Capote's book "In Cold Blood" showed the market for it. We have one local channel where violent crime is 90% of their programming. How much exposure to that can cause an unstable individual to 'explode'? How often do people, even unconciously, seek to emulate or transcend what the see?
...right...no one knows, and we can't prove it in most cases, but I have little faith that it serves as an object lesson or deterrent.

Barring the reduction of availability of guns, I think that restricting the re-enaction and detailed coverage of violent crime is the simplest way to begin approaching the problem.

No outrage? *I* am outraged that some of the real, genuine ways to deal with societal violence are ignored because of perceived 'rights' to own dangerous weapons and dramatize the use of them on TV and in video games.

I agree with you, Bill, thanks for putting it so well.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: number 6
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 08:23 PM

"Indeed, where is the out rage?
It is written that mankind can adjust to anything, and that may be his downfall."

I fully agree kendall.

biLL .. who is outraged, frightened, and deeply saddened.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: maeve
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 10:59 AM

This might interest you, Kat:
Asking "Why?"

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 11:21 AM

From the article:

"This is not an era of good feeling in the United States. We have under our belt eight years of pernicious terrorism angst, six years of Iraq war weariness and, now, months of wondering how bad the American economy's going to get and when — or, worse, whether — it's going to come back. People are tense. There's less inclination to help out your fellow human being."

This fits what we are likely to surmise, intuitively. (Except for the last sentence perhaps.)

At the end, though, it says we haven't been able to figure this out for 40 years or more.

So are there new and different causes, or is this a statistical "cluster?" It matters if an effective response or precaution is being calculated by policymakers.

Christian Science Monitor says that neighbors don't communicate much anymore, and males rarely have social acquaintances outside of the workplace. If you get canned they're likely gone from your life. No one to tell you "hey dude chill for a moment and think about what you just said." (But then you'd have to incorporate marital relationships and trends.)

(Conclusion: None.)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM

I'm pretty sure these may increase, and the political agenda will be to blame guns, and offer to put forth an agenda to rid us of them...therefore, raising further hostile feelings, and possibly more bloodshed. Perhaps, taking a look at the corrupt political/business dealings, that turn into policies, which we are told are to make our lives better, should be re-examined, go back and stick to our Constitution, prosecute those in public office, who have violated their oaths, to uphold it, before thinking you need a reason(read:excuse) to change it. Why change it, if you don't enforce the original?? That includes borders, speech, search and seizures, taxes, the minting of what was determined as money, life, guns, liberty,,on and on!! We have not had a president, nor an administration who hasn't been contortionists, trying to bend and get around, the basic, supreme law of our nation, to fit some bullshit, they'd like to propose, or be bribed into!!!!!!!!!! This also causes quite a bit of stress on the American psyche, when after all, we used to be the land of an open opportunity, that if one applied him/herself, we could achieve what we could...without business, and politics getting in our way!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 12:58 PM

SO FAR, we don't have suicide bombers, BUT we mhave total frustration among some of our fellow Americans---the world going off on tangents that are different from what their dogmas dictate---loss of jobs and an economy going bad and exposing to view the many failures of Capitalism---total lack of control in a way that produces psychological breakdowns in people who, formerly, were held up by the success of their money producing gambling habits that WERE/ARE the stock market casinos within which they could convince themselves, and all similar thinking cohorts, that their huge monetary successes were actually the result of their own expertise and decision making rather than just dumb luck!

ALL the factors produce desperation. A lack of access to explosives, plus the lack of expertise to construct suicide bomb vests, BUT WITH POSSESION OF HUGE FIREARM ARSENALS, leads to these kinds of copy-cat acts that, ultimately, are suicide by provoking the police to do the act for them when they cannot do it themselves! OR, when their own murderous acts leave them no safe way out, FINALLY, they get the self motivation to kill themselves.

That's how I see it here and now.

I'm just pissed off at the system that seems to do this to their own citizens.

No outrage---only sadness at the sorrows of how we inflict so much on ourselves even while trying to uphold our own individual and group values and dogmas.

Art Thieme
Aril 5, 2009

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM

Unless they have changed the rules, congress still passes the laws, and in order to amend the constitution they must have a 2/3 majority. Most of the time they can't even agree on what to fight about, so as I see it, the gun lobby is simply scaring the shit out of people who don't know this.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

They ARE suicide bombers. They are just as cowardly---and using what they've got to do it!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:13 PM

While politics isn't a factor in all of these recent violent killings, it certainly was a factor in the shooting deaths of the three Pittsburgh police officers. Here's an excerpt from a Pittsburgh Post Gazette article:

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Suspect in officers' shooting was into conspiracy theories
Sunday, April 05, 2009

By Dennis B. Roddy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Richard Andrew Poplawski was a young man convinced the nation was secretly controlled by a cabal that would eradicate freedom of speech, take away his guns and use the military to enslave the citizenry.

His online profile suggests someone at once lonely and seething. He wrote of burning the backs of both of his hands, the first time with a cigarette, the second time for symmetry. He subscribed to conspiracy theories and, by January 2007, was posting photographs of his tattoos on white supremacist Web site Stormfront....

"He was really into politics and really into the First and Second amendment. One thing he feared was he feared the gun ban because he thought that was going to take away peoples' right to defend themselves. He never spoke of going out to murder or to kill," said Edward Perkovic, who described himself as Mr. Poplawski's lifelong best friend.

Mr. Poplawski's view of guns and personal freedom took a turn toward the fringes of American politics. With Mr. Perkovic, he appeared to share a belief that the government was controlled from unseen forces, that troops were being shipped home from the Mideast to police the citizenry here, and that Jews secretly ran the country.

"We recently discovered that 30 states had declared sovereignty," said Mr. Perkovic, who lives in Lawrenceville. "One of his concerns was why were these major events in America not being reported to the public."

Believing most media were covering up important events, Mr. Poplawski turned to a far-right conspiracy Web site run by Alex Jones, a self-described documentarian with roots going back to the extremist militia movement of the early 1990s.

Around the same time, he joined Florida-based Stormfront, which has long been a clearinghouse Web site for far-right groups. He posted photographs of his tattoo, an eagle spread across his chest.

"I was considering gettin' life runes on the outside of my calfs," he wrote. Life runes are a common symbol among white supremacists, notably followers of The National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group linked to an array of violent organizations.

"For some time now there has been a pretty good connection between being sucked into this conspiracy world and propagating violence," said Heidi Beirich, director of research at the Southern Poverty Law Center and an expert on political extremists. She called Mr. Poplawski's act, "a classic example of what happens when you start buying all this conspiracy stuff."

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:15 PM

Here's the hyperlink to that complete article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM

Kendall, I wish it was as simple as the gun lobby scaring people.

It is the many dynamic factors of the system being shown up for what they are--pretty much--all at once---that provokes people to desperate acting out.

The use of guns? As Bob said a while ago, "They've got knives and forks. They've got to cut something."

Art

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:37 PM

I think I will follow Rapaire.

Until our society realizes the sale of violence in various media is an affront to our society, that the social compassion for, and care of, our fellow citizens is paramount to our existence... ah... whatever... I'll just go. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

Here's a diary from dailykos which some here might be interested in reading:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/5/716736/-KKK-revival-and-the-Fox-Noise-Talking-Heads.


KKK revival and the Fox Noise Talking Heads.
by LaFeminista
Sun Apr 05, 2009 at 04:19:24 AM PDT

Here's a portion of that diary:

"I am not sure how much the recent spate of senseless gun crimes is related to the incitement by the likes of Beck, O'Rielly, Hannity, Coulter and Limbaugh etcetera, it depends on how much influence you are willing to accredit them with, and judging by Limbaugh's and Fox's popularity this seems significant.

However there is another organisation making a come back since we elected an African American who is desperately trying to repair the shattered economy left by his Phoney Texas Ranger Rancher predecessor.

Now the KKK is making a slow steady comeback at[sic] it is easy to see why...

The Klan is adapting its message and the conditions are ripe for its return as can be seen from many comments on right wing websites such as Free Republic, Redstate, and Little Green Footballs. You don't even need to go to white supremacist websites to see the build up of hate.

Today the Klan is a mere shadow of what it used to be and there are at least 34 differently named Klan groups. "They are a fairly low-rent bunch of people, many of whom use their local organisations as a way of raising money for themselves," says Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama.

But the economic crisis is swelling their ranks and already, a month after the inauguration of the first black president, the tidal wave of interracial harmony that greeted Obama's election is starting to recede.

"Things are certain to get worse," says Potok. "The ingredients are all there: a dire economy that is certain to get worse; high levels of immigration; the white majority that is soon to turn into a minority and a black man in the White House." ...

The wingnut news talk show pundits better watch what they are preaching as it is beyond the boundaries of incitement to violence. Beck's 'we surround them' being one of the worst cases.

I also point to the 'lets take America back crowd' as I always wonder who they want to take it back from, you and me apparently, and there is no way I am giving it to them...

The 'Thar gonner take ur gunz away' crowd will resort to violence, as has been to recently horribly demonstrated.

The Glenn Beck's and Rush Limbaugh's of this world are playing with fire when they pander to these lunatics to promote their own sorry careers."

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: maeve
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 01:48 PM

I'll go along with Rapaire & gnu.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:22 PM

"-loss of jobs and an economy going bad and exposing to view the many failures of Capitalism---total lack of control in a way that produces psychological breakdowns in people who, formerly, were held up by the success of their money producing gambling habits that WERE/ARE the stock market casinos within which they could convince themselves, and all similar thinking cohorts,..."
"..FAILURES of Capitalism-...?" Try 'corruption'..not 'just' capitalism!
   Art, don't you think when you write and record a song, you have the right to sell it????...That's capitalism. When the music industry, does the things they do, to deny the songwriter/artist, of their due share, through whatever underhanded bullshit they do...that's CORRUPTION!
I used that analogy, being as I'm SURE, you know, and have been bit by that one!...as I'm sure a lot of people in here, might have been....and that's just in one small segment of the 'capitalized' world!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: number 6
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM

This kind of tragedy was happening before this current economic crash ... in fact this nature of violence has happened in socialist countries.

I certainly wouldn't point the finger at capitalism, or the failure of capitalism.

Personally I go along with Rapaire, gnu and Maeve ... and as Kendall stated "mankind can adjust to anything" .... just too much violence and in some ways we have come somewhat immune to it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:34 PM

Guest from Hannity,
To me you make no sense at all. What I said is the God damned truth as I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:41 PM

"Guest from Hannity" - how fitting!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 03:52 PM

Well, Art, could it be that the first third of my post was a quote from you? Not only was that in error, in the 'logic' side of it, it just didn't make sense, either. As to the rest..what don't you understand? Now, I'm beginning to think you may have an understanding ability. As so far as the 'Hannity' thing..I got a chuckle out of that too!..But I don't see eye to eye with him, either.
I think you need to read it to comprehend it, more than having your 'emotional trigger' ready to to fire!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 04:21 PM

"Now, I'm beginning to think you may have an understanding ability."GfH

You are right - he does.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Raptor
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:28 PM

This is about guns!

Plain and simple.

And yet the gun loving will tell you "Guns Don't Kill people"
Tell it to those who buried loved ones!

Even the blue adds under the thread Reply box are Gun adds.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 07:43 PM

If a person has no boundries, no belief system (no matter what that system is) and only frustration and unchecked anger this will continue to occur. After the fact (and I live 4 hours from where it happened) the neighbours and friends of the gunman said "it doesn't surprise us that he did this"

Ok, so why didn't they speak up before it got to this, tell someone try to get him help ... instead 14 dead including the gunman .. that is the outrage for me. After each and everyone of these people say .. he was so troubled so angry ... I wasn't surprised .. then the body bags get filled ...

I don't get it

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Raptor
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:05 PM

Can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone reported each and every person that they thought was stressed out or angry about something and capably of snapping?

Or if the police reacted to each such report?

This website alone harbours tens of people who qualify as angry and reactive.

If those who are in such dire straits had people who gave enough of a shit about them they might have a chance but to blame the neighbours who wheren't suprised by these actions?

Don't be too outraged!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Raptor
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:13 PM

With the family values the way they are and Parenting by nintendo or play station nowadays and lack of both parents at home I think we will see a lot more of this killing stuff.

It takes a village Not a game cube!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:48 PM

your point raptor is well taken, but to get to this stage ... i don't know at least maybe talking to a family member ... but you are correct everyone is angry and how does one sort it out

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:04 PM

Voice Of Hannity,
The rise of conservative hubris, arrogance, power and greed, as sanctioned by recent smirking gangs of American high elected officials, has conspired to put us where we are now. Those traits are inherent on the face of capitalism too I think. The old time labor movement knew that. That is why Reagan, first, killed the Air Traffic Controllers strike--a weak white collar and easily cowed union--to teach labor the lesson that their movement was moribund. The unions have been dismantled ever since by Republicans and some Democrats as well. Recent economic events are proving that the I.W.W. preamble had more truth to it than not. (Bosses and workers have little or nothing in common.)-- When the actions of the powerful conspire to rip the means of making a living from so many people, the anger is sometimes not logical in how it is expressed. These hurting people are seeing the ways of providing for loved ones simply evaporating around them. They SNAPPED, and did terrible things. Of course it is terrible and outrageously sad -- that is obvious---and I feel horribly saddened for the murdered victims and their loved ones.

Yes, I am hurt terribly be these horrible acts, but I need to invoke that paradox--yin/yang--every coin being 2-sided analogy I've used before. Many who committed these acts, thought their lives and their families lives were over after corporate America and Wall Street ran an airplane full of fuel into their mortgaged houses -- and also their fantasies of the American dream.

I do hope that this makes more sense to you than my other post seemed to. ---The out-of-control dynamics which are making our present catastrophe thrive so easily in our institutions because the economic system allows them to grow, morph, and become mutated. In time they have come to look like Bernie Madoff, Bush, Cheney, Enron, Arthur Andersen, AIG, pharmaceutical companies and ALL the blatant corporations that perpetuate the amassing of insane profits and holdings while making life absolutely impossible for those at the other end of the perverted and obscene bell curve of world-wide wealth distribution.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:21 PM

Kat----Am I sounding outraged enough??? ;-)

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

Kudos on your very well written post, Art.

I'm only sorry that what you wrote is so very true.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:53 PM

Azizi,
That's always true of your writings. I'll try to be more consistently coherent.

Ol' Art

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 10:00 PM

Art,
   From what I just read, you're singing to the choir! Where I may, (and possibly not,) differ with you, is, that in your list of of perpetrators, who I Readily agree(!), You mentioned Reagan, and the current list of the obvious, ok?...However, if you are going all that way back, would you include Clinton,and Poppa Bush? There is a reason for asking. I am not at all at odds with you on the other...and, if it went that far back, it would have to do with another 'undercurrent' which seems to be at work, ALL the way through, at least those. Wouldn't you agree?..And, if so, wouldn't it be logical to assume', 'presume', or even wonder, that this undercurrent is being funded, and promoted, but HIDES behind the masks, of the politicians, we have come all to familiar with? Though many of them are financially tied, to the companies, and organizations, or even 'special interest' groups; that are the reason for the current dilemma?? Agreeing either for, or con, their policies, WHICH ARE A MERE DISTRACTION, from what path they have led us through, consistently, through this time???? This path was laid out a lot longer ago, than is being 'reported'. All one needs is a good memory, to see that! (reference archives work well, too..if needed). Okay, now I am completely NOT RUNNING A CONTENTION, with you on this. But, it certainly would be cool to discuss, without the barbs(unless you like them,too?). Just in case you do............(Hannity..jeez)......I know you stink on the topic, Fart Theme..wink!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Janie
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 10:32 PM

Anomie

More anomie.

Merton's work goes well beyond Durkheim's.

As other's have already said, these phenomena are not new, nor are they unique to the USA or Western society. Doesn't make them less tragic or frightening.

Durkheim focused on suicide, while Merton looked more broadly at deviant behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 10:40 PM

Art,

Yes, you do and I love you! Thank you, darlin'.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:45 AM

Yesterday when I was working at the used book store, as frequently as I had time for I read in Michael Moore's 'Stupid White Men', which I have not yet read in its entirety. It was written in 2001 but I was surprised to note how relevant and applicable his outrage still is today.

His contention in that book is that the governmental corruption that resulted in putting Bush Baby in the White House would have long term repercussions.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:00 AM

Yes, Ebbie...but it was more than Baby Bush.......

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:56 AM

His further contention is that Baby B is/was a tool.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:38 AM

Absolutely agree...and there's more!!! just follow on the other posts, I'm doing, only in a couple other threads, one with Art, ..you'll find 'em..you're posting there,too. The thing, which is absolutely true, too...is that those he was a 'tool' to, are 'bi-partisan', in their 'tool using'. The same 'users' goes back before Poppa Bush...and those same 'interests', were the same ones, behind Clinton, too.....and a few more, as well,...without getting into the long history of it all!..But, some people cannot see past the party issues of their side' to get the complete picture! This has nothing to do with 'right' vs. left', Republican vs. Democrat, liberal vs. Conservative,...but when you confine your scope to those two polarizations, the entire picture is going right by you, and you miss it....as it was designed to do!!!!
Actually, I've been saying it for a while,..and, as the news confirms what I've been saying, then maybe, instead of 'focusing in on the issues'...look who's in charge of 'what', and WHO were they before! Do you think when Poppa Bush, started yakking about 'A New World Order', that the present Secretary of the Treasury, is none other, than Timmy Tax Cheat,..who was the original, architect of the bailouts, under Baby Bush, and before that, he was with the IMF??? Hey, I thought Bush and Obama had different political base values????
and vision.....maybe, not so! The illusion, is on you! Meanwhile, the 'wealth' of America, is 'Bailouted' away....and we're sucked dry, by who??..Bush?? Obama?? The policies by both of them, in this area, are identical...Follow the money!...which, by the way, is unaccounted for!
So, excuse me, if I don't get all excited about the rhetoric, of the speeches, or 'enthusiasm' of the 'reporters', or pundits...and this, is neither the cynical, or sarcastic side of me....
Hey, Ebbie, (and anyone else)..Have a Great Day!..really, I mean it!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:03 AM

I can't say I disagree with the things you listed but society's downfall is more than a product of government greed.

Look to the way kids are raised today.

I'm reading a book call "Last Child in the Woods. (Savind our children from nature deficit disorder)" it contends that children without nature interaction grow up with many problems and learning disabilities. By taking away trees and putting up jungle jims and plastic playsets we change the way children play from imagined games and roleplay playing to a hierarky of Who can clime best. Video games require no imagination at all as they are played by specific rules and if they are not followed one can't proceed in the game.

Kids are told not to climb trees for fear of lawsuits. Trees are taken out of parks for fear they will be climbed.

Kids don't play togeather any more unless they are hooked togeather with a personal video game and once again they are playing against eachother in a hiearchy of who's better.

Long gone are the days of wandering outside with a baseball glove till you bumbed into enough neighbourhood kids to play a pickup game. These kids don't even own a glove unless is an electronic controlel for the interactive game wi in witch one needs no one else to play with.

Kids don't even know how to speak to each other because all they do is stay indoors and Text or MSN Message to each other with emoticons and bad spelling (LOL LMAO BRB L8TER)>

Schools will keep the kids in if it is raining for god's sake.
Inside with all those manmade chemical laden air where it is toxic.


And as I said before parenting is not what it was before. Most kids only have one parent involved in thier life now. I think that too many young ladies are getting pregnant thinking that they can raise a child alone and it will be fine. A child needs influence from both a woman and a man to become a whole balenced person. With the cost of living what it is the average person needs to work over 44 hours to make rent and eat no time for kids so buy them a video game to spend thier time with.Theres no time to cook a nutricious meal and sit with them to eat teaching them the maners and social skills they should learn to interact with others later in life.So give them a microwave meal and the meassage that I'm to busy for you. When was the last time you saw a kid and parent on thier lawn playing catch or road hockey?


It's easy to blame George Bush for the downfall of society but harder to look at ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

Aww, Raptor..Good for you! You are NOT blaming Bush for everything..He was only doing what he was told. Nice to see that you are pointing out, that WE are at fault, for buying into every fucking phobia they can throw at us! They do that, to institute some stupid, 'special interest' program, to line the pockets of some clown, promoting it, while at the same time, trying to credit the government, for coming to the rescue, of something that never existed in the first place!!!!!(That's the 'Nobility Cloak', the cloaking device, used to hide the fact that they were bribed into voting in such nonsense) Ahh, now I'll go enjoy the globally warmed, great outdoors....that is till CO2, is taxed so hard, that even the trees and bushes begin to protest.(They need CO2..which,by the way, is an inert, non toxic gas).

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:13 PM

With all due respect, Raptor, those are some sweeping generalisation about kids, today. Speaking for my three grandsons, ages two almost 11 and 5.5, the latter whom I see everyday and the other two hardly ever as they are in CT, living with their divorced mom, they all get lots of face/play time with neighbourhood kids, parents, grandparents, and at school. The ones back East go to Boys and Girls Club after school, they are always outside playing with friends when I call and they have very ltd. time on one video game which they own and then only after homework is done. They also spend time with their dad and his parents, every week. All are involved in their upbringing.

The one who lives here climbs tree, plays on plastic sets and swing sets, too, but those only fuel his imagination even more. He also has parents and grandparents who interact with him. He just beat the socks off me playing Uno! My step-grandson, age 6.5, who also lives here, is much the same...lots of outdoors time, inventive time, friends time.

It's not all going to hell in a handbasket, yet.**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: heric
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:22 PM

kat I was thinking, too, how incredibly lucky my kids, and all our neighborhood kids, are to live exactly the opposite of what that book describes.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:58 PM

I still stand by my posts.
G. from S. -- We are certainly not singing to the same choir.



Art

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM

Art, Yeah, some choirs don't listen! Never under estimate the power of large crowds of angry, stupid people! Glad, to hear, all of the people in governmental offices, you like, aren't corrupt! By the way, do you set paid for your music, or do you distribute the proceeds to, even all the mudcatters, who may be musicians, but didn't contribute to your efforts????? ...Hey, that's your politics..Can't have it both ways!!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:40 PM

Do your HOMEWORK and lay off, GfS. Discuss the issues and use some credible cites and stop the personal taunts. Remember, membership is encouraged and preferred if you want to post.

heric, glad to hear that there are others.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: heric
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM

and now for a musical interlude.
Stand By Me

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: heric
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:10 PM

Yes, kat, and there are others like us in the Northwest, too. I have communicated with some of them on my short wave radio. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:17 PM

I hope people aren't losing sight of the connection between racism, anti-semitism, and conspiracy theories that, fueled by right wing websites and media such as Fox news, resulted in the tragic killing of three police officers in Pittsburgh on April 4, 2009.

See this article about that cop killer that was written by a representative of the Anti-Defamation League:

Richard Poplawski: The Making of a Lone Wolf

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:33 PM

Sadly, only those who who already decry those hateful attitudes are "not losing sight" of the connections & influences. Those who already hate and believe racist attitudes will, of course, deny such connections.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:40 PM

Bottom line, you don't have kids, you don't have any direct knowledge of how they are being raised. The guy who wrote your book has a point to prove, and what he presents supports his point. If what you posted is an accurate reflection of what is in the book, he is totally clueless about today's kids, their education, and the world that they live in.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 04:40 PM

The problem as I see it: Men are graduates of the "John Wayne School of Emotional Growth". When frustrated we're taught to handle the problem ourselves. We not taught to talk to others to see if our frustrations are valid ot not. We're not taught to seek out sounding boards. Did Dirty Harry seek counciling? Did John Wayne? Rambo? No - and we're told that's who we should model ourselves after - the guys in the "Die Hard" movies. Our heros are the guys who buck the system and stand up to a flipping army with just our own resolve and a couple of six shooters. Our enemies just fall over and then go away. But real life is a little different - isn't it? And the 20 bad guys with machine guns always miss- don't they?

We have to start re-educating our sons. Until we bring them up in a different manner it won't matter if guns are available or not. We have to teach them to not want to pick up a gun under the circumstances we're talking about. We have to teach them a better way to feel. And to understand that other people in the world - esp women - are something other than targets.

If you think you're a hammer - you'll see the rest of the world as a nail.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 05:05 PM

Teaching will help, Wesley...but a couple of hundred years of 'relative' civilization after hundreds of thousands of years where agression & testosterone were 'good' things is hard to overcome.


I don't deny the need to educate...I just don't expect miracles.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 05:40 PM

Those who already hate and believe racist attitudes will, of course, deny such connections.
-Bill D

The fact that the person who killed those police officers and believed in such conspiracy theories, and hated Jews and hated people of color lived five minutes from my home is really depressing me. This is not the American South. This is Pennsylvania.Pennslyvania considers itself to be a Northern state. Not that any of that matters.

I think that the climate that is being built by Fox News and Glen Beck and Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh, and others makes it much more acceptable to believe this poison than it would otherwise be.

Fwiw, the neighborhood where Polowski lived (and his mother presumbably still lives) is about 60% Black and 40% White though it was probably less than 40% Black when I first came to Pittsburgh 40 years ago. I've read reports from Polowski's best friend that allege that Polowski's mother shared his racist and anti-semitic attitudes-as does that best friend. I wonder if his mother expressed any "there goes the neighborhood" resentment about "the property value of the houses declining" and worse statements as a result of this population shift. Of course, this is not to say that the homes in that neighborhood have declined in value-they haven't. And not that the neighborhood has gone bad-it hasn't.

But then again that's all in the eyes of the beholders. And as long as people keep denying that there's no such thing as race, we'll never have those badly needed conversations about that subject that Attorney General Holder got raked over the coals about. And if we don't improve the schools curriculum to be less Anglo-centric, and if we don't teach people to reach across barriers of differences and if we don't teach children and youth and adults how to deal with their anger, and if we do continue to have Fox news type, Sarah Palin type, Glen Beck type, Rush Limbaugh type dog whistle messages that stroke the fire next time and the time after that then we'll continue to have tragedies like this one-and worse.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:14 PM

When I was the PR person for the Wyoming Grassroots Project, a human rights org., the thing we learned to stress the most was education, not just in school for children, but also in communities for the adults who are raising them. We had all kinds of seminars, guest speakers, film viewings, and even a cultural fair which showcased the diversity of Wyoming's population. One of the women who came to help us was from a "parent" organisation called the Northwest something or other (it's been defunct for a few years.) She had been all over the north west, facilitating meetings of concerned citizens, etc. as the white supremacists targeted five north west states, including WY, to take over as their "homeland." I remember her telling us of white men who would come to the public meetings, in Montana and elsewhere, stand at the back of the room with their arms crossed and their guns in holsters on their hips which it was perfectly legal for them to do. I considered her to be a very brave young woman as what she had to say about equal rights for all humans was not very popular. The head of the alliance she worked for had his home firebombed in the late 80s or early 90s because the message was so unpopular. But, we prevailed. I know there is still much work to do and we may be seeing an uprising of the supremacists, again, but we did make inroads and that gives me hope.

The limbaughs, hannitys, etc. are culpable, but if we educate their listeners they will dry up and go off the air. limbaugh just lost UPS as a major advertiser because of his crap. We can urge companies who advertise on their shows to withdraw their funding. THAT is what the media understand...threaten their ad revenue and there will be changes.

It also pays to try a good antidote for our own sakes by listening to Keith Oblermann and Rachel Maddow and others...and urge others to watch them as well. But we cannot rely on just the media, we have to keep educating and reaching out to those whom we probably really don't even want to associate with as that is how we humanise ourselves and them. No, we cannot reach nor have much of an effect on the extreme cases, but they are in the minority (that's why they feel so threatened) and we can band together to make sure the truth is heard. I hear you say "but, truth is subjective." I am talking about a truth of basic human rights and the laws of our land which protect them.

Wesley, I agree with you about our sons. heric, no kidding, short wave, eh? My Rog had one of them.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:15 PM

MTed Actualy I've been teaching for the last 20 years at an outdoor education centre and see about 120 kids each week and 100's of teachers who deal with dozens of parents each and the general concensis is that parenting has deminished a lot in the last 10 years

I don't understand how having your own kids makes you an authority on how the worlds kids will grow up fine by living indoors afraid to go out and make real friends instead of computer chatroom buddies that they don't actualy interact with.

No I don't have kids of my own but I see more kids than the average bear.

Kat it sounds like your grankids all have loving situations with more than just one parent guiding them and thats great. But your situation is the eception

GFS I blame Bush for a lot but if you raise an asshole it's not washingtons fault.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:42 PM

So-o-o-o what???? Am I supposed to respect someone who has sold out to hypocritical values??..Just because he was a near success?????

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:48 PM

I freqently read FoxNews online to get an idea of their take on things. Yesterday I emailed them in connection with a story of theirs.

Here is what the story said, beginning with a blaring headline:

"Bruni Backs Off From Obama Kiss
Michelle Obama received an enthusiastic smooch from French President Nicolas Sarkozy Friday but her hubby only got a handshake from First Lady Carla Bruni"

and continues with:

"Former model Carla lent (sic, Eb) in to give the world's most powerful man a traditional kiss on the cheek. But he appeared to flinch away, leaving her flustered -- and they ended up settling on a stiff shake.

"Carla, 41, did manage to kiss Michelle during the encounter in Strasbourg, the first time the two first lady style icons have met."


I then went on to ask:

"Which is it? I'm sure you would not willingly mislead anyone. Thank you for your attention. Elva Bontrager"

Think I'll get a response?

(Of course, I realize that a caption writer is not the same one who writes the story but 'fair and balanced' this is not. Or even accurate.)



(Here is the Story)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:55 PM

Tough economic times are always followed by a rise in violence. Even here in Maine there are home invasions and drug related assaults.
Now, if capitalism is the culprit how do you explain the rise in violent crime in say, England?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:57 PM

"The fact that the person who killed those police officers and believed in such conspiracy theories, and hated Jews and hated people of color lived five minutes from my home is really depressing me..."
Azizi


But you see...when YOU are not doing well, whether in jobs or schools....etc., hate and blame against those who don't LOOK like you, TALK like you, or BELIEVE like you is just so much easier than coping & taking responsibility. It happens more when changes are more rapid and the cultural & languages are greater, and when times in general are tough.
   It even happens in reverse among those who suffer the greatest discrimination, who often resort to blaming and hating all those who LOOK like their oppressors.

   It is really difficult to keep one's perspective and adopt a reasonable attitude when simplistic images, as in TV news, and community events stir the emotions.

I currently see it very close to me, as the Hispanic/Latino population is increasing rapidly around me...not only in neighborhoods 'over there', but on my street and in the stores where I shop. *I* know what my correct thinking and behavior should be, but
I have to remind myself the the majority of these people cause me no harm and have the same goals & basic values as myself....but this morning, I once again had to clean the pieces of broken beer bottles from my driveway, and I KNOW who caused the problem.
   When I see news reports of violence and crime near me these days, it is more & more Hispanic names involved. It would be so easy to rationalize and make sweeping generalizations about 'them', and though I am not considering moving, I don't doubt that the value of my home is being affected.
So... what is it that keeps ME from thinking & acting more like that guy who shot the police officers? Education?...maybe. MY parents were not racists, and I attended mixed schools from about the 7th grade on. (It barely entered my young head that I had NOT been in mixed racial/cultural classes the 1st 6 years) What really happened to me was seeing the Little Rock and Mississippi school crises on TV in the years when I was first meeting those of different ethnic backgrounds. It helped me get thru the next few years of school with some comprehension of what was at issue.,,,,and it's a good thing it did! Because when I was in college, George Lincoln Rockwell, founder of the American Nazi Party, spoke at my school. I went, curious to see such a person and watch him be be booed & heckled by our stalwart students......oh, was I in for a shock! He was cheered and applauded by a large portion of the audience!
I sat in stunned silence, wondering how this purveyor of hate & intolerance could be given a hero's applause. It took me years to sort out that he had simply mastered the art of appealing to the fears & prejudices already simmering in many people. It has taken me many more years to see that it is, as I said, simply much easier to blame & hate & believe the well-phrased lies & half-truths that bigots have convinced themselves of!

In Africa, Hutus & Tutsis still hate and kill each other...though without tribal/clan markings & dress, it would be difficult to tell them apart...and in Ireland, many Protestants & Catholics still nurse old grudges and beliefs, even though there is little to separate them EXCEPT where they live and go to church. And India & Pakistan? And Kurds & Iraquis? And Russians & Poles? And Serbs & Croatians?....I could go on, and so could each of us.
   When people are not happy, or have cultural stories & memories of conflict, they WILL take the 'easy' way of thinking, even when it leads to a 'hard' way of living.
I hate being a pessimist, but thinking is MUCH harder than just following old ways. We can...and must... teach, work and behave, as much as possible to set good examples and build trust & understanding....and President Obama is setting the best possible example of that every day! Perhaps in 20-30-40 years, statistics will show that improvements have been made, but we ALL know the the sad incidents of violence by disturbed individuals who can't cope with too much 'thinking' are by no means ended.

I have my personal opinions about what might ease the trends, but they are not PC, and even *I* don't like the implications. As long as the news media keeps dwelling on these stories, ideas will be planted in more heads....and as long as rising unemployment is coupled with immigration and old hatreds, it will lead to more violence...in Wichita, in Atlanta, in Memphis, in Des Moines...no place is totally safe. I know *I* am not safe.....but I am doing MY best not to provoke any problems....so I just go sweep my driveway and say little.....


.......but I am sad that it is so hard for us 'humans' to be decent to each other....

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:08 PM

Thank you Bill, for your most thoughful and courageous post.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:12 PM

Thanks, Bill.

I appreciate what you wrote and what you experienced and what you live.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:28 PM

.....Thanks for the remarks, and for reading. It was not easy to go into those thoughts...

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 10:28 PM

Guest from Sanity (I use your title advisedly), you are vile.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 10:40 PM

Whatever it takes! Kumbayah!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: mg
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:14 AM

I think we must be very careful about inciting and encouraging outrage. If the audience is say middle-aged women, it might result in a flurry of calls to congresspeople and letters to the editor. If it is young men, it can lead to violence, threatening behavior, broken windows etc., and it is not hard to incite them. Then the situation deteriorates..they have time in jail, their lives are forever altered...the neighborhood can be left in ruins, etc. etc. Of course same with the old ladies but less likely I think. mg

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:32 AM

Thank you, very much, Bill. Not easy, I know. Very much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:17 PM

Can this recent tragic act of brutality be blamed on the economy, capitalism, politican, or politcal party?

from the BBC

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:40 PM

The arguments used today against the Hispanic immigrants here in the States, and the various immigrant populations in Great Britain, echo the arguments used in the 19th century against Italian and Irish Catholics. It is very easy to know "who" is doing these things. It is whatever group is societally disadvantaged at the moment. The things happening, for example in Bill's neighborhood, are the signs of a societal problem that occurs whenever a group, be they ethnic or religious, or whatever, is at the bottom of the opportunity ladder. This could be from racial discrimination, or due to economic conditions spawning immigration (legal or illegal). The simple fact is that it is always economic at its root. Race just makes it easier. Bill's comments are in no way racist, he simply can see who is at the root of the problem in his area. The areas I give no quarter on is that of race, and the greediness of worldwide capitalism as it exploits men, women, and children. Until and unless we rid ourselves of the laissez faire attitude about business, we will continue to create more and more groups of "them". Until we stop looking for easy answers, we will allow the shape shifters of the capitalist system to divert our attention from the real problem, and they will continue to spawn conditions that put more money in fewer hands, and create more and more hopeless folks. Where hopelessness reigns, triggermen flourish. Only when it starts to hit the great middle will we begin to react. IMO.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:40 PM

Mick, I hear what you're saying. But for the record, let me say this:

I didn't think that Bill's comments were at all racist (putting aside the fact that in the USA at least "Latinos" or "Hispanics" [whichever group referent is most acceptable] aren't considered a race, but an "ethnic group" . Latinos/Latinas could be either White or Black. From what I read, it appears that many Latinos/Latinas thinks of themselves as "Brown", though the skin colors of members of that population range from White to very dark Black).

However, I do think that some of the problem Bill is facing is that his neighbors are what we Black people call "triflin'" meaning they
are adults who don't do what they should do to keep up the area around their home, and children who aren't trained by those adults not to drop candy wrappers and fast food containers etc on the ground instead of carrying those paper products to a trash container.

When I worked as a chambermaid years ago I learned that triflin' people are found in all races and ethnicities-and also in all economic classes.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:50 PM

100--and I'm still outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:59 PM

Azizi, I completely understand, and I know Bill D to be of the very highest integrity, and am proud to call him friend. Maybe I didn't make it clear that I understand his comment, know that it takes a great deal of integrity to say something of this nature, and that my comment should IN NO WAY be seen as anything more than a general comment on the entire topic, not Bill's comments directly.

I get the whole "triflin folks" thing, but even that would be addressed if we, as a society, quit allowin' the "haves" to set our perceptual reality.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:47 AM

This topic is not really about a laci of outrage. It is about unreasoned fearful rage.

Two years ago I regretted the coming violence and suicides that job loss and a starved economy was going to produce. It is now here as we watch in horror desperate lost men killing friends, family, strangers and police in suicides turned inside out.

People can run amok even in the best of times but today I feels as though an epodemic of going out in a sick vengeful blaze of glory.

The constant drone of fear and lies from right wing radio and TV have only added a bit of fuel to the inferno. Gun sales are up 47% and people are buying lots of ammunition that some consider to be a lifetime supply at a time. The reporting that OBama is going to sieze all your guns, has echoed coast to coast and is motivating some of the violence prone newly poor to turn their guns on others and themselves. One note left behind by a gunman said that the coming confiscation of his guns was part of his reason to kill police. It takes very little to incite social psychopaths to violence.

Glen Beck is calling Obama Hitler on cable TV. I recorded one of his shows in which he ran 4 minutes of Hitler speeches while talking exclusively about Obama.
Congress woman Michelle Bachman is claiming that re-education camps are now in place to teach our children to worship the tyrant Obama and the new Socialist State. Hannity praises their efforts as the only beacons of truth. Most die hard FOX fans are starting to believe it too.

While John Stewart says that these media whackos have confused tyranny with losing an election. I believe that the inciting people to gun violence is simply heinous and not a mere misunderstanding.

People who believe they have nothing to lose after they think they have lost everything NEED a clear alternative to suicide by cop.
It is not clear to me if the evangelical movement is helping or hurting these lost souls.
These lost souls are heavily armed, spurred on by a nationwide ammo shortage, Rush LImbaugh, Glen Beck, Rick Savage and believe that they stand on guard awaiting the order to start shooting.

The gun craze and ammo shortage since Inauguration day may not be as dire as it seems but I do not see the trend dieing. I see it advancing with 20 police and deputies killed in the last 2 weeks, 5 children killed by their father, 12 killed in my hometown at a Civic Center.

Church shootings, office shootings, home shootings, school shootings, police shootings all eventually end with the
prying a gun from the cold dead hands of a person upholding their 2nd ammendment rights.


The comedian Chris Rock cut close to the bone when he said "We don't need to ban guns, all we need to do is charege $10,000 for a bullet!"

Church, media and communites currently seem too self absorbed with thier own losses to tend to the emerging poor and desperate American gunmen. I am afraid they are spurring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:05 AM

sorry for the mistakes born from not proof reading...

edit

Two years ago I regretted the coming violence and suicides that job loss and a starved economy was going to produce. It is now here as we watch in horror desperate lost men killing friends, family, strangers and police in suicides turned inside out.

People can run amok even in the best of times, but today it feels like there is an epidemic of ordinary people going out in a sick vengeful blaze of glory. These people are not social psychopaths who generally have a delusionally high sense of self esteem. These people have lost all self esteem. They begin to hate themselves as they lose hope and the courage to persevere.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:06 AM

"Congress woman Barbra Bachman is claiming that re-education camps are now in place to teach our children to worship the tyrant Obama and the new Socialist State" Donuel

Don, perhaps you should - quickly - correct that statement. There is a BIG difference between Barbara Bachman and MICHELE Bachman.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:17 AM

A nationwide campaign is needed to educate people that these mass killers who invariably commit suicide, are merely people so full of self loathing that they are too cowardly to go on in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds that they compensate by commiting suicide only after watching other people die from the same gun. In the final analysis, these suicidal killers are the ultimate cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:19 AM

bad wiuth names...

I speak of the one who looks like a stepford wife on botox, not the courageous black activist.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM

Now I'm confused. Michele Bachmann is a Congresswoman from Minnesota. She has strong right-wing views.

The only Barbara Bachman I know of (1 n) is the woman who was attacked at the Bejing Olympics; her husband died of his injuries.

I don't know of a "courageous black activist" named Bachman(n).

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:27 PM

Blaming gun(an inanimate object)is the silliest, ridiculous argument on the planet!..But, like all those who are gullible, they will adopt any bit of the absurd, if it 'backs up' a political point of view, that they bought into. How do you blame something that makes no decisions????? I know, free speech, is caused by mouths..so do we ban mouths, or start messing with our rights?!?!..These are the same bozos who brought you the paraquat scare, or how LSD alters your chromosomes..while at the same time sanctioning the import of heroin, and coke??? They still can't decide if wine is good for your heart or not...depends on who's paying them to say what! Before, when protests were rife, in the 60's and lighter in the 70's, there was some legitimate 'correcting' to be done..now, there is some very serious correcting to be done, but the gullible, emotionally charged whiners, are looking in the weirdest places to do it!..and being fed by disinformation, on which to fuel their emotions ...while furthering the agenda of the very same ones, who are ripping your rights away! Go figure!
   'Something sage and intelligible' LBJ declared a 'War on Poverty'-- and lost. Obama has declared a war on capitalism--and is winning! Which all goes to prove that the only dumber than a politician, is an uninformed voter!
Could it possibly be that those who voted for the nanny state, currently undergoing steroidal growth under Obama's benevolent dictatorship, are about to learn who 'Big Brother' really is??!!?? Unfortunately, so are the rest of us.
The Democratic Party, has been hijacked by a bunch of tree hugging, big spending, Christian-bashing, Second Amendment-hating, socialistic psychopaths, with Obama as their king, and Nancy 'Botox' Pelosi, as their queen....We're in big trouble! The 'Republican party has been hijacked as well..and the bottom line is that YOU are not being represented, as much as you are being TOLD what to believe in! None of this shit is what America was, or is really about!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:40 PM

"Blaming gun(an inanimate object)is the silliest, ridiculous argument on the planet!."


"Straw man"!!!

That's kind of a distortion of the point. The 'blame' lies with ALLOWING such easy access TO guns by those who have no overriding need for them.
Guns are not in the same category as automobiles or kitchen knives: both 'dangerous' when misused, but of general value to almost everyone. There are now more restrictions (I recently read) on buying Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer than on guns... I know why, but sheeesh!

Saying that anyone who has not been convicted of a felony...yet... can go buy guns of many categories is BEGGING for more violent incidents...

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:06 PM

Strawman indeed

I deem those who murder suicide as cowards who have not developed a healthy anger in their lives. The violent angry psycho is a different animal. The person without an expression of anger is the dangerous type, but people usuallyget it wrong and think the person that can get angry is most suspect of violence. The Bind torture kill murderer was the peaceful deacon in church.

The mental health services for immigrants is non existent while long time natives will find sketchy services at best.

There are those who work tirelessly to prevent gun violence via gun control and legislation, yet if they do not address mental health they have missed the entire point.

Public service announcments are everywhere regarding substance abuse but there are not any aimed at the average repressed person with lots of guns and ammo but no hope.

we need some of those knid of announcments and people to follow up.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:09 PM

sorry "sanity GUEST" you are not likely to get Glen Beck's job even though you share similar arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:10 PM

It's "Michelle." I fixed it for you.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:14 PM

Of course you will sit here and blame the weapon, and access to it, instead of the right wing nut jobs that have been spewing their hate speech, and fear mongering, for years. They now have folks so afraid that they take these types of actions, such as killing three cops in "defense" of freedom.

But the problem is that the evidence still doesn't back up that "common sense" you are spreading, Bill. Twould that it were so, but Harvard did a study that demonstrated that access had little or no effect on the murder/suicide rates ("Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide: A Review of International Evidence," Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, vol. 30, pages 651-694.) After extensive research it concluded that there were no instances of nations with high gun ownership having higher murder rates than nations with low gun ownership. If anything it was the reverse.

England enacted some of the toughest gun control measures, and handgun restrictions in the world in the late '90's. Since then they have seen their violent crime rate rise to the highest in the industrialized world and twice that of the US.

Russia, and the former Soviet Bloc countries, have 4 times the murder rate of the USA, despite over 8 decades of total State control of firearms, and very tough restrictions on gun ownership.

Then you look at Norway. Highest percentage of gun ownership in Western Europe. Lowest murder rate.

In our own country we can also draw some conclusions. Based on one report I read, the murder rate among African-Americans is 6 times higher than it is among whites. Yet law abiding African Americans don't own weapons in anywhere near the levels of white Americans. The rural African American owns weapons at about the same percentage as rural white folks, and has a lower rate of violent crime/murder. The conclusion being that violence really is about economic conditions and hopelessness and has nothing to do with race or accessibility to weapons. The overall murder rate in our country is about the same now as it was in 1946, even though gun ownership has risen 500%. There were spikes and drops, my guess due to other factors such as economics, but despite the dramatic rise in ownership, the levels of violent crime have not risen.

So I don't think it is a straw man, Bill. The facts just don't support the conclusion.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 05:38 PM

well, Mick...there are many factors involved in rates of gun violence.....including laws, culture, history.

Since we can't do a double-blind study in all those countries starting 200-300 years ago, it is difficult for either of us to prove our theory absolutely.

I do suggest that the logic is hard to dispute that IF someone has little or no access to firearms, they will not hurt anyone else with them. Totally *legal* guns are used carelessly, stolen, bought legally and REsold illegally, and just simply used by folks who bought them legally, but in retrospect, had no business being trusted with one.

I have, as I have said many times, no notion that it would be possible to simply pass a law and solve much, as there are so many firearms already 'out there', that it would change little in the short run. I just believe strongly that there are huge loopholes in the laws that 'could' be closed to curb easy access by certain people and to restrict certain types of weapons and ammunition.

The NRA seems to feel...(what do I mean 'seems', they SAY so)...that passing even one seemingly reasonable restrictive law will just be a 'slippery slope' to widespread restriction of their **CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS**....so they are willing to ummmm... live... with the regular horrible headline just so they can claim that they are defending themselves.

I know the line..."Enforce existing laws!!".... right. Many of the recent incidents were caused by people who DID own those guns legally.
"But there are many ways to commit murder"...oh, indeed, but it is MUCH easier to avoid a guy running into a school with a knife.....those bullets are fast!

*sigh*... we both know the arguments. I just feel that trying it MY way would still allow YOU and other sane, qualified folks to do what is needed, while at least *reducing* the number of fools using guns to settle their scores.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 06:42 PM

It was common practice for cowboys to have to check their guns at the local law office when they came to town. Things have sure changed.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 07:29 PM

From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:14 PM

Of course you will sit here and blame the weapon, and access to it, instead of the right wing nut jobs that have been spewing their hate speech, and fear mongering, for years. They now have folks so afraid that they take these types of actions, such as killing three cops in "defense" of freedom.

But the problem is that the evidence still doesn't back up that "common sense" you are spreading, Bill. ...

I don't care!! Reality has no bearing on this at all!! My political agenda, which resembles China, Russia, and Cuba says that private gun ownership is a possible threat, to the dictatorships, and total control over the people..being as dictators have phobias about people who may oppose them, all I need, is a plausible argument to feed the rabid paranoia, that believers, of me, need to share..to be my TRUE subjects. Good Lord, (ooops, sorry, there is no 'Lord' but me) How do you think global warming started???...Hot air windbags talking about it so much!!!


Mick, you are absolutely right, on this one----GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 07:31 PM

It has been pointed out many times that one well-trained person could have stopped many of those shootings. Would that she had. mg

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:03 PM

GfS...what IS that last paragraph about? It differs little from incoherent rambling.
Is that your philosophy? A presumed quote from someone else? What the s*** has global warming to do with this?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:16 PM

Oh Bill, you got caught with your hands in the cookie jar!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:33 PM

Pretty interestin' reading...

Everyone seems to be trying to find the panacea... Ain't none...

It's in our ***culture***... Our ***culture*** has been desensitized... That's why people think it's okay to do some of the dumbass stuff they do...

(But, Boberdz... What is our culture???)

Well, it's alot of things...

It's about the last century being the killing century... More people were killed in the 1900's in war than in all the centuries before it combined!!! That, my fellow Mudfolk, is shamefull but worse than being shamefull, it desensitzed the entire grobal tribe of homo sapiens to think that that stuff is just okee-dokee...

It ain't...

But our culture has accepted it... No, make that embraced it!!!

(What???)

Yeah, go to any movie... Watch the senseless killing as if it's like going to watch a baseball game???

(But we have to find ***THE CULPRIT***!!!)

Ain't gonna happen...

Yeah, it's about gun laws, it's about racism, it's about economy, it's about the deinstitutionalization of folks with sever mental problems in the 80s, it's about the breakup of families, it's about ad-men tellin' us how we have to live in order to be happy or to look as if we are happy, it's about time that we don't give each other, it's about the information explosion, it's about the way that people interact (like thru computers) or don't, it's about too many people feeling as it that are a rock, they are an island, it's about alot of stuff...

This culture seems to be the one with which we are hoplessly/hopefully stuck....

Can't asy it aqin't been one heck of a friggibn' ride...

But it's a real shame that the folks of my generation- you know, the 60s- couldn't have short circuited some of the bad effects that the ride brought with it...

(us' the thoughts of an ol' hippie...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 08:36 PM

Bobert, That is one of the most insightful posts you've ever written!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:27 PM

Blame mental illness, blame the weapon, blame the blame game, its all the same.

The constant FOX harangue that Obama is going to take your guns and ammo, has in fact motivated at least one mass killing suicide.

Even if only as few as 15% of US yahoos buy into the entire FOX scenario, the FOX propoganda that is putting out fear reports to be prepared for an armed insurrection before Obama makes your guns and ammo dissapear, is HEINOUS LUDICROUS VILE MURDEROUS LIES.

I suppose they would welcome a class action suit that would charge that they are not providing a public service worthy to use our airwaves, since they could then turn around and say in a Monty Pythonesque manner "Look at the tyranny inheirent in the system"

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:38 PM

Bill,
guns can be handy for more than wounding and killing people and animals. I'm no McGuyver but suppose I lost my keys and had to get in the front door...BLAMMO
Suppose I accidently handcuffed myself (ahem) and lost the key...BLAMMO
Suppose I couldn't get the cap off the super glue...BLAMMO
etc.

Regarding the argument that total uniform arming of every single person in society would put an end to random acts of violence in a hurry, such as limiting killed innocent victims to 3 or 4 instead of 15...

I agree!

but there would probably be way more "accidents"

Don't get me wrong, you probably would run the same chance of getting shot accidently if everyone carried a gun as you would from getting your heel rammed by a shopping cart at Safeway.
Its never happened to you before, right?


(in the style of Dave Barry)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:46 PM

PHRASES OF EVIL:

Its the way of the world
Ya gotta do what you gotta do
Its the culture
You have to face reality
They had it comin
Its a 5 cent solution
What they do to each other is no concern of mine
God's warriors wil do the will of God

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 09:55 PM

Amen to that, Donuel. (pun intended)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:07 PM

Bill, the last paragraph, was an answer, in parody, to Big Mick's, comments to you..as if I was speaking back to him, from inside a misinformed, over indoctrinated mind..you know, like yours. The Global Warming sentence, had to do with another of those politicized, topics that have gone to the absurd!
Now, would you like me to teach you how to tie your shoes?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 10:24 PM

"...an answer, in parody, to Big Mick's, comments to you..as if I was speaking back to him, from inside a misinformed, over indoctrinated mind..you know, like yours."

ummmm...gee... I shoulda SEEN it! It's so clear *giggle*..and coherent *cough, guffaw*, now that you explain it... *snicker*.

GtS....Mick & I KNOW each other,,,we are friends, RT &VT. We debate stuff at times, but we do try to remain coherent and rational when we do.

It really bemuses me that you should suggest (if that is really what you think) that I am "misinformed and over-indoctrinated" (what might UNDERindoctrinated be?) I read most of the same data as anyone else....and Mick gives me stuff to read! I do draw different conclusions from some data than others might, but I am allowed to - that's what makes this country so great, huh?

(I tie my shoes with a double reverse helical sheepshank...how's about you?)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:04 PM

I think it's about time we put this thread to rest.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 11:15 PM

Ah! Bill, Then I could draw from that(your response), that sharing information, with friends, can be a welcome thing!. That's good. Actually, I wouldn't have it any other way..unless I had to. I also do that, but sometimes in a way, with good intent, and sometimes with a little satirical illustrations, as to stimulate a little deeper thought, into the subject. You know, to make one look within themselves, possibly be amused, by some bit of nonsensical, programming, we've picked up along the way. Sometimes, I even get a bit impassioned, or angry, indignant, amused, sarcastic, satirical...but always, with the intent of what is being shared is of value, to the person, or audience, or client, I'm dealing with. I however, will NOT misinform someone, intentionally, nor will I promote a political or religious agenda, that overrides common sense!(Even still, some truly spiritual things, may defy a simple explanation). But, when I do those things,..even when they may sound cutting, I am usually under the impression, that the person I'm talking to, will receive it, as possibly a point of view to consider, or, something to implement their own cranial data base, of information. In certain areas, my shit is TOGETHER! In other areas, I listen to what others may share, and consider it, the way I wish some would consider mine. When I encounter the blocks, in the block-headed, I'll blast away. When its a time for compassion, I've written with tears in my eyes(literally). When someone feeds me a 'straight line', I may muse back...for a chuckle for whomever(even if its not the person who it's written to).
That being said, there is a difference between being 'deceived', and being 'evil'. Most people, given the information they have on hand, will make the 'right' choice, because ...well, ..when was the last time you made a choice, to do something stupid, or wrong, for the circumstances??.. more than likely, not often. However, when a person makes a 'wrong' decision, based on bad information, it is because he was merely 'deceived'...or, he/she wouldn't have made that decision..right? On the other hand, when a person puts forth bad information, for others to act upon, or steer their life's agenda on, and does it KNOWINGLY, well, that is 'evil'. Wouldn't you agree?
   Often, when on here, I (we all) encounter, others who are promoting very deceiving information(read: misinformation), that was promoted by 'political activists', or the 'news' media, which is nothing but evil, deception via propaganda. Some people swallow it all, hook line and sinker, and become empty headed, emotional, mouthpieces, blabbing garbage that is absolute hogwash. As a side note, those are usually those, who have ducked out on certain responsibilities in life, and launder their guilt onto others, so they don't have to feel so bad about their lack of character, as they gain 'followers' to whatever, that particular topic is...but, back to the main subject, ...It is those, smarmy, smug, hypocrites that I level a blast at.
As to your reply, about you and Mick, being friends, so on and so forth....I was not under the impression, that anyone on here, were not, or capable of not being friends...and it is with that spirit, that I offer you this explanation!
Warmest Regards, (I think),
GfS

P.S. Sounds like you wear boots...don't forget to take them off when you come into the house....or you'll get hollered at!

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 08:05 AM

You are only speaking about size. The issue is the same.
ITS ONLY A MATTER OF SCALE


"(NUCLEAR WEAPONS don't kill people, people do)
Of course you will sit here and blame the weapon, and access to it, instead of the right wing nut jobs that have been spewing their hate speech, and fear mongering, for years. (YHEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE YOUR 500 MEGA TON HYDROGEN BOMB AWAY!!!



OH NO WE NEED TO STOCK UP AND MAKE 50,000 OF THEM.
.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 10:31 AM

Oh, Donuel, Would you break into someones home, who was well armed, and you knew they would blow your head off....if you did???..Its only a matter of size, you say.
I'd say, Its not the size that matters, its how you use it!...
But people who don't know any better, may need a reason not to...others, shouldn't even try.
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

GfS, are you aware that your method of punctuation is about 80 years out of date? They used to think that a comma should go wherever one's voice wants to emphasize a point but that approach has long since been outmoded. lol

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:26 PM

Are youse all having fun yet?

No, I didn't read any of the posts since I left.

Carry on, and on, and on, and...

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 03:08 PM

This made me sick:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30136615/

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 11:31 PM

Hmmm, Ebbie..You mean it might not be..ummm...clean?..old world..before things got so fucked up??

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 12:03 AM

or...are you talking about apostrophes?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 12:30 AM

Commas, man. Commas.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 12:55 AM

Folks, please...how can we hope to effect any kind of change when we can't even be civil to one another in here? Stop the personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Raptor
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 08:06 AM

This is outragous!

Relax everyone and take a moment and be thankfull for the heathy people who we have left with us this easter weekend.

My father who has been sick with some sort of obstruction might not need surgeary, and in 2.5 hours my buddy mike and i are going to push our kayaks through the snow down to the water of lake simcoe and go for a paddle so Life is good for now.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 08:34 AM

I agree Raptor!

yes ... let's be thankfull for the healthy people who we have left with us this easter weekend.

I just got back from an early morning photo shoot along the Saint John River ..... watching the sun breaking through the mist I was reaffirmed that life is good, and many of us have a lot to be thankful for ... why oh why people can be so miserable as to even find petty arguments with one another is beyond me.

peace.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 05:49 PM

The outrage is boiling over among southern white evangelicals.
Glen Beck of FOX has whipped them up to actually kill people.

The President is the target of their wrath and he is being called Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin rolled into one with a little Chamberlin appeasment thrown in for good measure.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:52 PM

I know it's sad when someone flips and goes on a killing rampage but the number of these deaths pales into insignificance against the number of people killed on the roads each day. Why isn't there a similar sense of shock from the general public over this? Is it that the death toll isn't widely publicised?

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:58 PM

It's just a different 'feeling' when it's done intentionally using an implement that there is great debate over the value of.

The roads and vehicles are constantly being made safer. The ratio of deaths & injuries per mile driven is getting better. There ARE outrages at road deaths caused by alcohol & drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 07:16 PM

As in MADD - Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 01:19 AM

You mean, MADD, doesn't mean, 'Mudcatters About Doing Diddillysquat'??

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 01:44 PM

I was glad to read Oprah cancelled an anniversary program on Columbine. When she reviewed it, she decided it focussed too much on the killers and so pulled it. That is a good and responsible thing to do, imo. We've been talking about media glorification...I am glad to see her not buy into it.

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 04:18 PM

Knowing the savage and savaged minds of the killers is a valuable lesson to anyone. Wouldn't you want to know the real warning signs.

Oprah probably looked at some demographic opinion polls.




I was aksed earlier if I would break into a home in which I knew they had a 50 megaton Hydrogen bomb.

Yes, but only to disable* or diffuse the bomb that threatend life on Earth.

*A skill I would have to acquire. I recall a protest by a Catholic priest who broke into a nuclear facility and beat on A bombs with a sledge hammer. (not reccomended)

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 04:43 PM

Creating anger and outrage with false information is not the sole domain of Glen Beck or Rush, they merely reflect the means to an end by their "employers".


Rush Limbaugh cartoon

yelling into his huge microphone:
I want you to go to the window and yell, I'm sick and tired and I'm not going to take it anymore...

At the window thousands of voices are heard yelling
"Shut the f up Limbaugh!"

Subject: RE: BS: So much=overwhelmed + no outrage?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 04:48 PM

If absolutely everyone carried a loaded gun

BAM
oops sorry, that was an accident.

BAM
oops I thought you meant it.

BAM BAM
Oops, is there a bad guy here or not?

BAM BAM BAM
I'm just shooting because everyone else is.

BAM
thats no excuse

Hello, is anyone still alive in here?
BAM


(a DH classic)